»
Archives
»
Critical Analysis #2
»
Modesty
| Critical Analysis #2 |
|
Modesty |
|
|
Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Modesty We impolitely watched as she tried to cross the street, modestly, in that skirt too short and the wind too strong between the buildings too tall. She wanted to hold it down but, what the hell, she just spent two days pay on a hairdo for tonight. Modesty be damned. |
||
| © Copyright 2002 Pete Rawlings - All Rights Reserved | |||
Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
(chuckling) Like this subject and the presentation... a thought... in addition to the fact she had just spent two days pay for a hairdo...why not add the element of teasing..in that she also had on a 24 dollar thong... ( chuckling) Enjoyed this... a great deal as the image is one i can relate to and one that while amiusing in some ways is so totally impolite to revel in.. |
||
|
Crazy Eddie Member
since 2002-09-14
Posts 178 |
Not much to change methinks. OK if pushed I might suggest rearranging the skirt/wind/buildings lines and while we’re on the subject the buildings line does seem to be a little out of place, like you were looking for something to be tall and they were handy. The wind and skirt have a connection but I can’t see where the buildings come in, apart from being tall.. Perhaps you could add more tease by mentioning her “legs so long” instead. Only minor gripes really, sometimes I wonder if all this critique stuff doesn’t make me come over all pedantic, forced to find the slightest hint of a flaw in every diamond, but I digress. As I said minor gripes on an enjoyable read. Thanks for the chance to read and reply. [This message has been edited by Crazy Eddie (10-02-2002 08:24 PM).] |
||
|
caterina Member
since 2002-07-25
Posts 188Canada |
Hi Pete, The first time I read this I liked it but I wanted to think on it for awhile. The images and message came through quite clear for me. I am wondering if 'watched' could be replaced with another word that would give the reader some insight to facial expression, specifically the eyes-- my thoughts were going in the direction of....glared,leered,oggled...you know, something like that. In line 2 'she tried'-- what about 'she struggled'-- for me I think it says a lot more that 'tried.' I have no problems with the tall buildings, I think that at times if one is standing between 2 buildings, that there can be a wind that is like a funnel, a kind of twister, I think... that can flip those skirts around. In the 1st line of st 2-- 'to hold it down'--I feel it would be better if you perhaps named what 'it' is, would 'she wanted to hold the hem down' work? Oh yeah, another thing that I noticed, 1st st l-1... make a line break after watched? And I like the ending. I like short poems and this one worked for me. caterina |
||
|
Radrook Senior Member
since 2002-08-09
Posts 648 |
I like this poem. I would just rearrange it so that the "it" is closer to its reference. I know that everyone else did not, but at first read, I had to backtrack in order to see what the "it" was referring to. The phrase "hold it down" made me think that perhaps she was about to toss her lunch and was trying desperately to avoid it. Also, you begin in the past tense and suddenly shift to the present tense in your second stanza. I find this a bit distracting. I probably wouldn't if I were not looking for something to adjust. Well, maybe I am just too quick of an initial reader. Anyway, the modification is illustrated below for your acceptance or rejection. Modesty We impolitely watched as she tried to cross the street, modestly, between the buildings too tall. and the wind too strong in that skirt too short. She wanted to hold it down but, what the hell, she [had] just spent two days pay on a hairdo for the[]night. [So] modesty be damned. [This message has been edited by Radrook (10-03-2002 03:10 AM).] |
||
|
howpeculiar Member
since 2000-12-12
Posts 56 |
i'll be back later. in the meantime: the title of all things... i like the repetition of the word modesty in the poem, but not in the poem AND the title. overkill. at the same time, ~shurg~ it's really a perfect title. ... perhaps changing the first 'modestly' to another well-suited adverb? i don't think it would alter the tone, nor the almost reflective nature of the stanzas. heh. and instantly, i see something else. impolitely just does. not. fit. the only thing more tangible than a ‘feeling’ is the rhythm of the word, the length and strut of syllables and the actual sound. it is, also, cliché... regardless of the seeming unimportance of the word or idea of people ogling a woman (esp. when in this case, they are not the focus), it gives the poem a whole new flavor to describe the voyeurs in a new slobbering or blatantly tactless light. well, it worked for Bukowski… then again, you’re Not a Poet.  p.s. strange side-effect: i also happened to like it a lot. [This message has been edited by howpeculiar (10-03-2002 07:36 AM).] |
||
|
Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Thanks all for your suggestions. This just suddenly came to me yesterday while reading Caterina's delightful "Persistent" and I never get anything that quick. I particularly liked the idea of reordering lines 3-5. It seems to build the tension better as well as getting the skirt closer to the it in line 6. I think struggled is a good substitute for tried but I don't think a stronger word works for watched. Everything I try just looks a little too sensational or something. Also, I did notice the shift from past to sort of present tense. Attempts to force it to past just looked forced and artificial besides adding unnecessary wording. I had to struggle with myself over that one but, in the end, decided to write it informally, much like one might have said it. Finally, Eddie had a question on the buildings but Cat saw right through that. This poem does speak of truth here in windy OKC. The wind does indeed get funneled between the tall downtown buildings, often doubling its original velocity. It does make for some interesting noontime "watching." I think I'll try describing it a little better for those who don't live in windy cities. Maybe something along the lines of, ... between buildings too tall funneling the wind too strong wearing that skirt too short. Although right now that sounds too wordy. I'll think on it and any ideas are appreciated. Thanks all, Pete [This message has been edited by Not A Poet (10-03-2002 10:38 AM).] |
||
|
caterina Member
since 2002-07-25
Posts 188Canada |
Pete, I think that works much better having the 1st stanza end with the skirt being too short, it makes that connection that you need without having to specifally say what 'it' is in 1st line of the 2nd stanza. Great! I do have a suggestion for those 3 lines that you are concerned about. Would this work for you? Between the buildings tall a funneled wind too strong wearing her skirt too short she wanted to hold it down Perhaps someone else has a better suggestion, meanwhile it's something to work with and might point you in another train of thought. Also, I mentioned in my first crit that you might think on replacing 'tried' with the word struggling, well... since reading this for the umpteenth time, I am thinking now that 'wanted' in the 1st line of the 2nd stanza might benefit more with the word 'struggling'...hmmm, decisions, decisions.  Then, there would be the matter of finding another word for 'tried' and I think that I came up with something you might like?...'she stepped to cross the street' yes/no?I think the short poems, although I like them, are so difficult because every word is supposed to count and it can really be frustrating. I think that you're close to finishing this one. Anyway, hope I helped. caterina |
||
|
Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Actuall Cat, your suggestion for the three lines is almost identical to mine. Somehow it seemed like funnel was too big a word to use. I'm still thinking on that. As for wanted vs struggled in S2, I don't see her as struggling or even trying to hold the skirt down. Although she really wanted to, the hair was much more important to her so it automatically got both hands. The only help for the skirt was to hurry across the street. The first line can be fixed easy enough, I think. BTW, your advice is always helpful. Thanks, Pete P.S. I left a little anecdote under "Persistent" I though you might enjoy. It is also related to word choices although I didn't really mean it as a suggestion in that case. [This message has been edited by Not A Poet (10-03-2002 03:21 PM).] |
||
|
caterina Member
since 2002-07-25
Posts 188Canada |
Pete, I think I found a word that would work for you with the wind. What about this 'the whorl of wind too strong' whorl meaning a spiral, like a mini whirlwind. How does that sound? Something to think about. caterina |
||
|
Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
How does this work? I changed it all to present tense and rearranged the lines we talked about above then substituted a couple of words here and there. Note also Chris and Kamla, there is not punctuation except for the periods and I can't give those up. We impolitely watch as she struggles to cross the street modestly between buildings too tall focusing wind too strong on a skirt too short. She wants to hold it down but what the hell she just spent two days pay on a hairdo for tonight. Modesty be damned. |
||
|
caterina Member
since 2002-07-25
Posts 188Canada |
I would still like to see a line break after 'watch' and do you really need 'but' in the second stanza Pete? For me, it sounds fine without it. Would you consider adding a little something else Pete? I know....I'm a pain, but it would really sound good if your put something to the effect of 'flipping her skirt too short' or whatever word that you think might give that particular image. I kinda liked it in the past tense, but this works too. Perhaps some other opinions would help there. It works well without the punctuation and yeah, I agree, you need periods at least. I'll leave you alone now. caterina |
||
|
Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Hey Cat, I think you are definately right about the break after watch in L1. I don't know how I overlooked that suggestion before. The rest I'll have to think about some more. BTW, don't even think you should "leave me alone." To the contrary, you have been, as usual, more than helpful. Thanks, Pete |
||
|
Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Pete, FYI, I've watched from the beginning through now and the small metamorphosis that this poem took...I'm STILL smiling.... you certainly do NOT fit your name... |
||
|
hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
I like the revised version of this quite a bit. The present tense makes it more immediate, which really works in this poem. I like your placing of line breaks- I think interesting textures can be created by placing a break maybe what might seem one word too early or late. I also think you should keep 'but' in the second stanza- it has a neat rhyme with the 'what' immediately thereafter. Something I really liked about this was the contrast of the idea of modesty in the two stanzas. I think 'modestly' is an important word in the first stanza because it accentuates her modesty in light of the tall buildings that seem to dwarf her. (BTW, I thought the buildings were essential from the beginning for that reason, I know somebody didn't like it... just wanted to say- I loved it. It's practical ([the wind funnelling harder] and the imagery, I think, has something to say about technology making us feel as small as ants- maybe that's just me... I think that aspect could be focused in more if you specified what kind of buildings they are, but then again, that might become the focus of the poem, when it really isn't meant to be... don't mind me and my tangents. )Anyway, in the second stanza, She's basically just like "Screw it!" because she has more important priorities than standing in the shadow (or this case, wind tunnel) of two bigger things- her pride overcomes her humility. You scored big with me on that one. Then again, this could be read as a criticism of today's values- that a woman would let a bunch of drroling guys (heh heh, no offense intended, Pete) oggle her just so that her five star fifty-dollar updo can be preserved... hell, forget about the disgrace of a bunch of guys seeing your panties, you're too materialistic to let your expensive hairdo get messed up. Maybe I'm overanalyzing this. Maybe you meant to characterize men, rather than the woman... maybe you wanted to show that men have no sense of decency when it comes to a woman caught in the crossfire, or, as it is here, the crosswind- Maybe this is about human nature, like the story of that woman in New York, I think? Her neighbors all watched her be raped and killed, and nobody bothers calling the cops because they were too busy watching. Or maybe this is a little snapshot poem, just a 30-seconds-in-the-day-of-the-life collection of lines, but I think it's more. I think it's way more than that, whether or not you intended it to be... you said it came to you very quickly... and a lot of times, I find that those are the poems that just grow and grow the more you read them... it's funny, really, that our deepest thoughts are usually dashed off in a couple of minutes... But really, this just has layers and layers and layers of meaning, and I can't tell you how much I love it. Anyhow, more praise than critique from this wallflower... hope I've helped. -Amy |
||
|
Skyfyre Senior Member
since 1999-08-15
Posts 1906Sitting in Michael's Lap |
*grin* No critique, I just loved it. |
||
|
Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Sunshine, Thanks for reading and commenting. I'm glad you enjoyed. And welcome back to CA. You've been away quite a while and it's good to see you back. Amy, Thank you so much for your time and effort in this critique. Somehow, I think you must have enjoyed analysing this poem more than I enjoyed writing it. BTW, I agree with your first parapgrph entirely, well, almost. You propose numerous possible interpretations, all of which I think could be valid in one sense or another. My own meaning, however, had nothing to do with technology or our personal significance (or lack thereof). I particularly enjoyed this parapraph, quote:but I had no intention of belittling the lady for protecting her hair rather than her modesty. There is no disgrace in accidentally showing your panties to a bunch of guys. If anything, your next thought probably comes closer to my original intent, reflecting on the lack of decency in the guys watching or taking advantage of a difficult situation the lady finds herself in. Trust me though, this story is in no way related to that tragedy you alluded to. There is no rape or even thoughts of it here. Honestly, I guess I can't speak for all the guys thoughts that day or any such day. It really pleases me that you were able to see so many layers in this little poem. After readyin your analysis, they all weem to be valid. But you give me too much credit. I originally thought it was just a snapshot. Thanks again. Linda, It is good to hear from you again too. And thanks for the compliment. I'm glad you emjoyed it. And please do come around more often. We would love to see more of your writing as well as critiquing. Pete |
||
|
warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Hi Pete, I just read caterina's "Persistant", and now I come upon this little gem. I do like the second version...it is perfect!!! Kris "It is wisdom to know others; |
||
|
Fuji Junior Member
since 2002-09-23
Posts 26 |
I'm still shifting through my own critics, and learning from them. Not much I can add as far as advise or changes. I liked it and actually learned from it. Visualization. I see! |
||
|
YeshuJah Member
since 2002-08-20
Posts 65FL USA |
Pete- I like the poem the way it is. The image is, I think, concrete if a little dry. I concur with Caterina- I need some facial expressions or something from 'her'.. couldn't add anything more than what's already been said. Bravo. |
||
|
Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
day late here - pete, this rocks! you remember that poem brad wrote, Metamorphosis? this is right up the same alley and i appreciate it as much and in a very similar way. without hesitation, no unecessary words, you plopped an image straight into my brain and kept it there through the remainder. i had no doubt what i was seeing while i read, there was no ambiguity, no hidden passageways - just a short clip of a woman walking across the street. from a male perspective... well, i was drooling, ok? seriously though, i agree with you that it isn't nec. a "bad" thing, just one of those situations life puts in front of us at times. you don't present the woman as someone less, just with her own priorities. you don't slam the men for looking, but recognize that there's a bit of "you shouldn't" (which btw is implied naturally that that's what makes it so much more fun, the illicit peep). truthfully - i can't decide which version i like better... i lean toward the first though. either way, it rocks. i love it. C ps - kamla's the one who's all on about no punctuation. with few exceptions, i prefer to use it... i just mangle it sometimes.  |
||
|
Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
Rotf @ the punctuation note Pete... I said to Cat (I think) once that my position on punctuation is such (in brief): I'm playing with not using it at all, or only a little - if other's use it, it should just follow a consistent pattern... Your second version agrees with me, with TWO exceptions. The placement of the word impolitely (and no Chris - NOT because it's an abverb  ) is a bit off still...maybe because it's so final. You have a 'we' which could be either the reader, or a 'we' known only to the narrator...but you've ascribed a single motive for them all, namely, ill-politeness. To open up the accessibility of the poem, ie the interpretation of a reader, you could just have 'we watched' and then readers can determine their own way - seeing through the eyes of the poem's subjects. Chris, and his typical charming self heh, proved an example - he drooled. The matter of watching someone struggle across a street is subjective I think - and not necessarily impolite..hm..did I make any sense with that?Secondly - the word modestly. You have such a short poem here, and the title of the poem is Modesty. If you omitted the word from the body of the poem then it becomes sharper and the title slots in with the actual work - without the repetition... Other than those two things - bravo...I really liked this...  K[This message has been edited by Severn (10-11-2002 04:42 AM).] |
||
|
Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Hmmm. Kamla you may have an idea there. I have been struggling with impolitely all along but have not been able to come up with an accurate substitute. It may be just my limited command of the language. I am now thinking deeply on your suggestion of using no adverb to let the reader supply the image. I think I like that. Kris, Fuji and Yesh, thanks for reading and commenting. I'm glad you enjoyed. Chris, I can see you drooling right now. You are my kind of guy. And thanks for the tall compliment m'friend. Pete |
||
|
lizzy-luv Junior Member
since 2002-10-12
Posts 20new hampshire..oh, the hicks abound |
that was nice. in a slightly taboo way, but you did a marvelous job of capturing the wind and the sights. even though it's print you painted colorfully. |
||
|
lizzy-luv Junior Member
since 2002-10-12
Posts 20new hampshire..oh, the hicks abound |
my signature should have been on that. 'love is a dangerous angel'(Fransesca Lia Block) |
||
|
Capricious Member
since 2002-09-14
Posts 89California, USA |
Not so much on the poem (which was quite tasty indeed) but to expound on the previous replies: Perhaps "impolitely" might be replaced by some synonym of "guiltily" or "secretly"? The light tone of the poem does not bring a leering crowd of, say, construction workers to mind, but rather a passing professional or two, whom one would expect to be more discreet (thus realizing they are "impolite" in the first place). That being said, I think "impolitely" works well. I also disagree with the poster who insisted on facial expressions or further detail at all ... a good bit of what makes this piece so endearing is its expedience, which is quite in keeping with the subject. That damned wind, It's either the thong or the 'do, You have one-half second to choose. As you say, "Modesty be damned." |
||
|
|
⇧ top of page ⇧ |
|
| All times are ET (US). All dates are in Year-Month-Day format. | ||
