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Rust in a Land of Silver
| Critical Analysis #2 |
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Rust in a Land of Silver |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration 
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lessons learned - teach me to just throw something out with my critique flag flagged and people like Linda prowling the forums.  This is a modification of a modification, and after all the wonderful input from this thread, i thought i'd bring it in here for some more tweaking. Thanks in advance. Chris Rust in a Land of Silver ©2002 C.G. Ward was searching for an answer somewhere between ache, and the examination of laughter as it rang in the glance of a mime. clutching to nests of copper wires like madmen chasing fleas, I dug through the grip of lies to find only sand, quickened to silence beneath our thunder. you thirsted, and I blinked at the suggestion that gods are weak, while the stone guarding a broken rose is steep enough to mock the apathy scaling your stare time leeched anger from darkness, and you smiled; quoting a dead man and singing out the belief that Life - is waking at two a.m. to feel my breath against your ear. so I shrugged my shame to silence, whispering that tomorrow and today are no longer conceptual. they are now, and I am rust in a land of silver. |
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Skyfyre Senior Member
since 1999-08-15
Posts 1906Sitting in Michael's Lap |
I almost feel guilty. Almost.  I'll come back to this when a few others have given their opinions. Wouldn't want anyone to think I'm stalking you. |
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Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-20
Posts 21191Cape Cod Massachusetts USA |
Any time I feel compelled to read a poem several times to absorb more of its innuendo, I'm a happy camper - This is surely one of those works. I'm glad to see you taking some time to write some poetry as well... and now if we could give Linda that same impetus??? I enjoyed this one, C..   |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Hi C, good to see ya. First, I should say that, like Nan, I found it quite enjoyable and, as is you way, very well crafted, full of interesting and uncommon imagery. You actually have something to say here, a moral of sorts without being preachy. I find that good. Now for the nitpicking. When I see something like this devoid of capitalization, my first impression usually is, the writer was too lazy to bother with technical details or did not think the piece was worthy of that much extra effort. Well, that doesn't necessarily stop me from reading but at least makes me wonder. Ok, I will forgive that since many good writers employ that method. But I still don't have to like it. I mean the language has certain rules and conventions and I would prefer to stay pretty close to them rather than try to create a whole new language. All right, that's it for the soap box speach. Now for punctuation. Poetry does allow for some misuse of it and I know you know the rules and when to bend them. In this case, it appears to me that you have overdone it though and without logical justification. For instance, and these are JMHO as I am no language expert: S1-L2: comma is incorrect S2-L4: comma acceptable but technically wrong S3-L1: comma incorrect S3-L2: comma incorrect S3-L5: period needed S4-L1: comma incorrect or at least unnecessary S4-L2: semicolon s/b a comma S4-L5: dash is incorrect Well, like I said, this is probably nit picking and you may not agree with any of it. BTW, I did briefly check the other thread and my first impression was the same as Linda's. You need the I as the first word. Starting this one off with a sentence fragment just does not do justice to the remainder. Just in case any of this gives the impression that I don't like this poem, let me say that nothing could be further from the truth. I just think it has room for small technical improvements. Ok Linda, the ice is broken. Go ahead and stalk. Thanks, Pete |
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Skyfyre Senior Member
since 1999-08-15
Posts 1906Sitting in Michael's Lap |
Uhm ok I'm back. *pulls out the white glove* was searching for an answer somewhere between ache, and the examination of laughter as it rang in the glance of a mime. The sentence fragment still irks; maybe I could talk you into dropping "was" and use "I searched" to preserve your sense of progression?? I honestly don't think it would marr the poem in any sense just to drop the "was" ... clutching to nests of copper wires like madmen chasing fleas, I dug through the grip of lies to find only sand, quickened to silence beneath our thunder. I'm liking this much more betterer! *tail wags* thirsted, and I blinked at the suggestion that gods are weak, while the stone guarding a broken rose is steep enough to mock the apathy scaling your stare I still want the dirt on this whole thirsting business. "No thirst unexpounded," that's my motto. I like the flow between "steep" and "scaling" that you added. Much better than the previous version here. time leeched anger from darkness, and you smiled; quoting a dead man and singing out the belief that Life - is waking at two a.m. to feel my breath against your ear. I can hear the pause you're wanting in the fifth line, but the dash is technically incorrect. In fact, any punctuation will be, as written. Perhaps you might consider: "...and singing out the belief that Life is waking at 2 a.m. To feel my breath against your ear." This way, you can use the natural pause of a line break without getting into any sticky punctuation foibles. so I shrugged my shame to silence, whispering that tomorrow and today are no longer conceptual. they are now, and I am rust in a land of silver. Two things; first, silence does not equal whispering. Any sense of genuine apology you get from line 1 is irreverantly shot down in the next line. Problem is, I like the idea. Maybe you could make lines 2-4 a sort of internal monologue, with the speaker thinking the lines instead of whispering them. Second, you have a war of silences going on here, which may or may not be a problem, but I thought I'd bring it up. "Quickened to silence beneath our thunder" and "Shrugged my shame to silence" presents an odd sort of SILENCE vs SIle..n..c....e juxtaposition. On second thought, I like that. |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
Ok gorgeous...here I tis, the great and merciful one ~snicker~ But first I have a question for Pete - ever read Charles Berstein or Susan Howe? Not just their poetry - but their thoughts on poetry - and punctuation? It just interests me that you love punctuation so much ~grin~ (I'm awful..it must look like I am trying to convert all and sundry to a punctuation-less state...heh). Now, you. I chose NOT to read all the critique in the other thread simply because I want to start with a fresh slate yanno what I mean? But I have read the critiques in here. First I have to say, I don't think this is the best thing you ever written...good, but not great I guess...some very nice lines though. Punctuation in general.. Hm. I think you have a few grammatically incorrect commas and so on as Pete has pointed out. I'm fairly sure you did this intentionally - mainly to indicate pauses. You're a big one for using commas before the word 'and' which is usually a grammatical  (But who cares about grammar in fv right?) Personally, I think it's ok. I do have a huge problem with the semi-colon. IMO, you just can't go chucking them around like that - because it looks like you don't understand their purpose. Commas slung here and there for pause-effect are cool..but semis? I really would change that. lbl: first was searching for an answer somewhere between ache, and the examination of laughter as it rang in the glance of a mime. Ok - I concur with Linda and Pete, you need that 'I' to start the first line...without it, it just sounds, well, cheap, tacky, thoughtless. I would consider dumping the word somewhere. 'I was searching for an answer between ache and'...reads tighter. Did you intend the rhyme between answer and laughter? It doesn't fit with the rest of the poem, so maybe you could consider playing with the line breaks here - make it an internal rhyme instead. 'rang in the glance of a mime.' Glance of a mime, I like that. I like the different concepts. How glance can mean look and also slide off something...if you put the latter meaning against the mime - actions without sound..it's almost as if the laughter is a soundless reaction..something that can't penetrate below a surface. That's cool.. second clutching to nests of copper wires like madmen chasing fleas, I dug through the grip of lies to find only sand, quickened to silence beneath our thunder. Do you need 'clutching to' - how about just clutching? Also, I'm not sure about the word clutching itself. I think a stronger word might be better. I love the image of madmen chasing fleas. Absolutely love it. Quickened to silence - interesting reversal here of the norm. third you thirsted, and I blinked at the suggestion that gods are weak, while the stone guarding a broken rose is steep enough to mock the apathy scaling your stare I really don't like the word 'while' as a flow on word. I think this needs tightening up. It's a bit listless, this stanza, when compared to the others. fourth time leeched anger from darkness, and you smiled; quoting a dead man and singing out the belief that Life - is waking at two a.m. to feel my breath against your ear. now this I like aside from the semi-colon, the capitalised Life and that dash. Why do you have that there, out of interest? Oh, I suggest making a.m. into am. (sounds like a nice definition of life heh ) This is a really cool stanza, the concept, the image..the way you say it. Praise praise and more praise..fifth so I shrugged my shame to silence, whispering that tomorrow and today are no longer conceptual. they are now, and I am rust in a land of silver Interesting. Interesting concept of tarnish, and the ability to put it to one side, without really feeling it - by stopping the now. Well, that is my interpretation of it. The work overall lacks your usual gaping melancholy - but this verse, in it's meaning, displays it in a convert sensem which I approve of (though you know I love your melancholic expoundings). I don't think you need the fourth line though - it's tautological with the prior lines. I also don't really like whispering - conflicts with silence. Linda is right about the war of silences - I think it works well, layers of silence, multi-meanings...to me - silence forms a key concept within the poem...a conflict between silence itself adds to the problematisation of emotion (you might argue that 'whispering' performs the same function, and perhaps it does - but I still don't like it). All in all, a good poem you have here hon...   K |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
Firstly, thank you everyone for putting effort into this. I find that even with a poem I'm not ecstatic about, such as this one, it's worthwhile to receive some input from others. Nan - Thank you for dropping by. I like that you were able to read it several times to dig a bit deeper. As for giving Linda some of that impetus… well, lol, we can but try? Pete - Moral without preaching - that's hard sometimes, and I'm glad to see that you feel I accomplished that! To the next, Capitalization: Uhm, I'm not lazy, swear! *grin* In truth, it actually takes MORE effort to remove the capitalization, as Word automatically capitalizes the first word in a new line, following a period / exclamation mark / etc. (Note this right here, which I am typing up in Word, lol). The reason I choose to avoid capitalization is partially aesthetic: I prefer the way it looks, and partially logistical: if I avoid capitalization, it makes the few instances I do (ref. S4-L5) stand out that much more. If, with the example above, I opted to begin sentences with capital letters, this line wouldn't have stuck out as much. I recognize that others prefer the more traditional approach, but I think there's also a fair amount of precedent that allows this sort of deviation. As K said, I often use commas that, while grammatically incorrect, effect the pauses I'm looking for, or extend them. (In addition, I have been called the comma king for so long, I almost feel it's my duty just to add a few here and there, lol). One of my biggest challenges in any writing is correct punctuation in regard to commas - simply, I put them where *I* hear the pauses. The problem with this is that many/most don't hear them in the same places I do. In prose, I can get away with this a lot more, since the pace is set much differently and there is more time for a reader to adjust to this specific manner of writing. In poetry though, I can see how it could be problematic. I am hesitant to work on breaking the lines apart more though… hmm. So let's see which ones we agree on - S1-L2: comma is incorrect - agreed, removed. S2-L4: comma acceptable but technically wrong - why technically wrong? To me, this seems right from both grammatical and "intentional pause" viewpoint. S3-L1: comma incorrect - I see two grammatically correct options to me if I want to maintain that slightly longer pause I was looking for both before and after "and I blinked" - I can either break the line (yuck), or add an ellipsis. (yuck again). What would you suggest? S3-L2: comma incorrect I disagree with this one. What I've done is use a comma to prevent the reader from grouping the words in a way I didn't intend. I don't mean that "during the time the stone guards the rose… the gods are weak" instead, I wanted it seen that they are two different subjects brought about at [in the same conversation]. S3-L5: period needed - absolutely right, and an oversight in the rewrite from version one to two. Thanks. S4-L1: comma incorrect or at least unnecessary - agreed, removed. S4-L2: semicolon s/b a comma - correct… and incorrect. LOL - but only because when I put the semicolon in there, I'd intended to change the subsequent phrasing… and, uhm, forgot. *blush* better? Worse? S4-L5: dash is incorrect - Disagree. The dash adds emphasis to the following words, while also adding the pause I was insistent of having. *grin* But we'll try Linda's suggestion and see how it looks. A good critique I think Pete, and helpful if only to help me realize the different ways people read something. Truthfully, I forget about how important punctuation can affect the way others read something if they view it differently than I do. Thanks for the reminder. Linda - *snicker* You're a evil, terrible (not necessarily the same thing) woman! Better write Nan some poetry so you don't end up going to Hell for picking on me! Fine, fine, fine. I accept the consensus, and will change the bedamned first line! I like this last idea better, since it will maintain the time frame and apparently satisfy everyone else. (ROFL @ wagging tail - just got a picture in my head of you, yes, with a tail… *rolling eyes*) The next - I THINK I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure what I could put in to accomplish that without changing the focus of the poem. In my mind, acknowledging that thirst (ergo the intellectual connection) is sufficient in and of itself. If I were to expound on that, wouldn’t you think that might interrupt the focus? I still don't know about the break… I used to do that a lot… but now, I don't know - the breaks seem unaesthetic to me. I prefer a more bunched up affect. I will try it, and we'll see what others think. No, silence does not equal whispering… LOL - and that wasn't the point at all. I like your idea of an internal monologue, though I want to try something else before I attempt that - let me know what you think - quote:Silences - you know, that part was unintentional, and I didn’t even realize the repetition until you mentioned it. And like you, I like it. It fits with the implied contradictions flowing throughout the rest of the poem. Heh. Thanks for pointing that out. And once more, thank for your input - I give you a hard time, but I think you know how valuable your critiques are to me. L'il K - You'll not convert me to a punctuation-less (I like that) state… I tried that once a while back… and as I recall, you gave me grief over it, lol. Oh well, each to their own, eh? Already replied about the semicolon above… it wasn't intentional misusage, but rather a matter of forgetfulness. (uhm, if you're going to call it an LBL, then why do it stanza-by-stanza? Wouldn't it be better called an SBS?) "I" has been involved (ooh, that sounds so grammatically incorrect, but I think you know what I mean…). And - I'm glad you caught onto the "glance." I was somewhat surprised that no one else had commented on it - of course, they may just not have thought it was all that special. LOL Took out the "to" in the next stanza. It actually helps the image I was going for - "clutching," as in grabbing and holding onto. It was intended to give the impression of someone desperately seizing these "lies" and refusing to let them go. I don't know if there's a "stronger word" that could accomplish the same image… Explain the next? Listless? Not following - and why don't you like "while?" to me that's a very flowing word. *smile* Tautology - you know, as I recall, I won a victory in this conversation as well, lol. It can certainly be viewed as tautological - but I disagree with your overall assessment for a few reasons -
Just in the course of modification, "whispering" is gone. But I disagree with your statement for the very reason you said. (M/R) *smile* We'll see how this goes, and discuss it if I feel it needs to go back in. Thank you for dropping in love, appreciate the effort as always. I agree that I don't think it's my best by far… and after looking it over, I think one of the main reasons is that it's almost as if the entirety of the poem is simply leading up to a single "punch-line," as it were. Which is pretty close to the truth of how I wrote it. Perhaps with some of this input it can be a little better. Thanks all, here is a modified version: Rust in a Land of Silver ©2002 C.G. Ward I searched for an answer somewhere between ache and the examination of laughter as it rang in the glance of a mime. clutching nests of copper wires like madmen chasing fleas, I dug through the grip of lies to find only sand, quickened to silence beneath our thunder. you thirsted, and I blinked at the suggestion that gods are weak, while the stone guarding a broken rose is steep enough to mock the apathy scaling your stare. time leeched anger from darkness and you smiled; quoting a dead man you sang out the belief that Life is waking at two a.m. to feel my breath against your ear. so, I shrugged my shame to silence. tomorrow and today are no longer conceptual. they are now, and I am rust in a land of silver. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Just a bump so we can see it again. The revision, that is.[This message has been edited by Not A Poet (09-27-2002 04:45 PM).] |
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caterina Member
since 2002-07-25
Posts 188Canada |
Chris, I like the revision especially with the addition of 'I' in the 1st stanza. It would be even nicer if you were to capitalize the first word in each stanza since they do begin a sentence, it is the proper way you know. In the 4th stanza, and this is just me, but it seems to me that you might want to break after 'belief' in the 4th line and make the next line 'that life is waking at two am.' Also, do you feel that you need 'so' on the 1st line of the last stanza? Aside from that, the images are fresh and you had my attention all the way through. I enjoyed it very much. caterina |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
A reply to your reply to my reply heh. I gave you grief over punctuation-lessness? No way! You're dreaming, you must be dreaming hon. I thrive on punctuation mutilation...(it must have been some time ago - before I realised it was ok to mutilate...). SBS - think two little letters dear heh. Listless...simply being that the stanza doesn't have much drive when compared to the others...it's reads like a slow moving current..listlessly. Aimless even. It just kind of goes on and on...no internal rhythm - that's aided by the while. I think you need a hard interruption in the stanza, that's all. Give it an edge. Get rid of the flow on word fs/period. 'Tautology - you know, as I recall, I won a victory in this conversation as well, lol.' You're referring to the night we were walking down High Street I think ~gives C a fond look~ but as to the 'victory' part...I must have blocked that traumatic memory out...or else you're fantasising again. 'this is (as you noted in a recent poem) set in a conversational tone - people are likely to speak what you consider tautological phrasing during conversation.' Well you may else well just say 'wassup mutha' as well then if you want to be conversational. That sounds like an excuse. 'it can also be viewed as summation to the end of emphasis, bringing the "concepts" together into a "dramatic" line, and following it with the conjoining final statement.' And that sounds like convenience that fits too nicely with the format of your last stanza. 'they are now' is hardly a dramatic line hon. But I do see your point. 'it can also be non-tautological - saying that "today is now" is, I agree. But what I'm doing here is likening today and tomorrow as a single entity, then bringing them "before us" and running a comparison of "myself" under the guise of this new / old framework.' This is a lot more convincing than that other reasons. But I wonder if that is something that exists only in your own conceptualising - something that is only your own reason to explain away tautology - thereby rendering it ineffective in general. Ahha! My point is proved: 'Just my intention, perhaps you read it differently.' (heh, and you're so ly paaaranoooid. ~evil laugh~ ) Hm, to help the poem look less like a lead up to a punch line - I'd consider changing the title. I like the revision btw...it's much better. Hugs dear. K[This message has been edited by Severn (09-27-2002 09:01 PM).] |
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