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Eye Thought
| Critical Analysis #2 |
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Eye Thought |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
My eyes followed your hem Watching the full cut drape of cloth Sway in an exaggeration Of the motion your hips made As you walked in front of me “She’s young enough to be your daughter” ran through my mind but did not translate into voluntary muscle response I was not lusting, But envious of the 20 somethings Still holding youth in firm grasp From which their bodies had yet to wriggle out of My eyes followed But my mind wandered And I thought that now, Though older, and certainly hunkless in form, I did not want to go back I wanted to go forward Youth has a beauty to be appreciated, But so again does all age Still My eyes followed [This message has been edited by Cpat Hair (09-19-2002 08:39 PM).] |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
I could never critique your work... but I have to admit you're not dead! |
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Radrook Senior Member
since 2002-08-09
Posts 648 |
Fascinating subject! Here are few suggestions. My eyes followed your hem Watching the full cut drape of cloth Sway in an exaggeration Of the motion your hips made As you walked in front of me ["followed" and "watching" seem redundant. Perhaps, "followed your hem as the full cut...swayed in....."] “She's young enough to be your daughter” ran through my mind ["I thought" avoids unnecessary wordiness and an overused phrase]. but did not translate into voluntary muscle response [The above passage initially confused me. Then I eventually realized that it refers to wanting to stop watching but being unable to. I feel that a simpler way of saying this would enhance the poem's descriptive power.]] I was not lusting, But envious of the 20 somethings Still holding youth in firm grasp From which their bodies had yet to wriggle out of [The plural pronoun "their" lacks a clear reference. Perhaps, "From which young bodies have yet," or "From which the young have yet" is better. The "of" is redundant. The words, "from which" complete the thought without it.] My eyes followed, But my mind wandered [I like this use of contrast of eyes following but mind wandering! But where did the mind wander and on what? Please tell us about the wanderings. We want to know. Show us how your wanderings convinced you or reminded you that youth--though very attractive -- is not the only age that has its inherent beauty. After you have done so, then the following statement can logically and more convincingly follow.] And I thought that now, Though older, and certainly hunkless in form, I did not want to go back. I wanted to go forward. "Since the speaker is initially envious, but now is not, a change has occurred in his viewpoint based on his mental ruminations. This too underlines the importance of describing just what he had been wondering about which led to this change of mind.] Youth has a beauty to be appreciated, But so again does all age. Still My eyes followed. [I like this ending! It very effectively conveys the inner struggle which the older man feels. On the one hand, his common sense reminds him that youth is not the sole possessor of beauty. On the other hand, he acknowledges that youth's physical charms are not shared by other ages and that despite his philosophizing, he is inexorably drawn to it. I also like the way that the word "still" makes an indirect and subtle contrast between the quick energetic movements characteristic of youth and the more sedate physical mannerisms of the aged. Nice touch!] Enjoyed this fine poem! Thanks for sharing! Question: Why would a man be more attracted to a hem rather than to the woman's hips as they swivel? [This message has been edited by Radrook (09-20-2002 09:02 PM).] |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Hey Ron, I absolutely loved it. I suspect there may be some minor point that could be addressed but it just hit me too close to home. Yep, I've definately been there. I know exactly what yoyu were feeling. Thanks for the read, Pete |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
Sunshine: Sure you can...all you have to do is share your thoughts and tell me what doesn't speak to you or is awkward..you know you will not hurt my feelings... Radrook: Your thoughts and ideas have a great deal of merit. I agree the orde rof verse could be changed to make it flow a bit more logically...but...feelings and the thoughts around them are not always logical. I personally find the progression of thought and feeling to jump from one place to another then get sorted out as it is reflected on... from a readers perspective the device of writing in just that way is perhaps not as effective as I would like to think...SO... I am giving thought to your suggestion and as I said feel it has a great deal of merit to warrant such. The actual wording..could be improved upon. I agree... this was actually written in a rush as I struggled to capture the feel before it was gone from me..that passing moment over analyzed...and lost in its essence to become just another string of mundane in our day to day... I'll store this one for a bit and revisit it later with fresh eyes ( hopefully). Hope you don't mind me also storing your comments for review when I do take a look, so I can give them serious consideration. Not a Poet.... oxymoron if ever there was one... I've read your words.... Thank you for the comment and the knowledge it touches someplace close to another's experience. Hopefully that tells me in some degree it captures a more universal occurance and or thought... Thanks to you all!!! Before I think about making changes..I will see if any other thoughts are offered and let this age a bit in my own mind...taking the proverbial step back and allow it to speak to me when I edit it through your eyes and minds not just mine. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Ok, I found a few minutes and had to come back to this one. As usual, Radrook has done a good job of finding possible improvements as well as the best points. Now for mine. I was particularly struck by his closing question, why watch the hem when it could be the hips. Well, I have to agree with that  being pretty much a butt man myself. But as I read the poem again, I really like the way you used the hem leading up to the hips. I think that really builds the tension. Some of the wording might be modified a little but I like it as is.Voluntary muscle response at first glance may be a little obscure but it didn't throw me for long and I'm not all that quick a thinker. But I think I would have worded it a little more direct but that's just my style. Here's a point that usually doesn't bother me but did in this case. Ending the next stanza with a preposition, "wriggle out of", felt awkward. There are, of course, many cases where it sounds stilted to rearange a sentence to avoid such but here I think it would be easy to say "wriggle free." It says the same thing, IMO, better and more correctly. BTW, I didn't have any problem resolving the pronoun, their, in this instance. It would seem to be correct with the plural "20 somethings." I thought "hunkless in form" was an absolutely perfect description. It says so much in so few words. I wish I had thought of it first. From that point on, I have to agree pretty much with Rad except I'm not sure I need any more evidence of why the speaker seemingly changed his mind. In fact, having been there myself, I don't believe he really had to change his mind at all. I can be envious of the firm bodies the young have and I don't anymore but still see great beauty and desirability in those of us who are no longer young. Well, I suppose that is a matter of personal opinion. But then one does get a lot of personal opinions in here anyway. One final observation though. Your method of capitalization was inconsistent. In most cases you capitalized the first letter of each line but in some you did not. The more modern thinkers in CA and elsewhere have finally convinced me, an unswerving traditionalist, that at least sometimes, it is better to not capitalize. I think this poem, as most free verse, would read and look better if you capitalized only the first words of sentences. Ok, that's all. Well, thanks again for sharing, Pete Never express yourself more clearly than you can think - Niels Bohr [This message has been edited by Not A Poet (09-20-2002 11:34 AM).] |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Actually, no, I cannot. I feel each poet comes in with their thoughts, their feelings, this is how they want to present them. The best I can do is edit. Period. I know my faults...critiquing is one thing I cannot do. But I sure enjoy reading! |
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Sudhir Iyer Member Ascendant
since 2000-04-26
Posts 6943Mumbai, India : now in Belgium |
Ron, Normally I don't give too many critics... but I just decided to play around with your words and since you always remarked (nicely) about the variation of structure I manage ... I came up with this... -------------- my eyes followed your hem inspectingly-- at the full cut drape of cloth swaying exaggeratedly by your hip motion -- as you walked in front “young enough to be your daughter” blazed through my mind though untranslated into a voluntary muscle response there was no lust. just dark green envy of the twenty-somethings holding youth in their firm grasp from which the bodies had yet to wriggle out my eyes followed while my mind wandered through a slower thought “now, though older and certainly hunkless in form, I do not want to go back” I wanted to go forward youth has a beauty to be appreciated so does all age yet my eyes followed stilled ------------ I hope you don't mind... You have a great poem, my friend... just rewrote it my way  Regards, Sudhir [This message has been edited by Sudhir Iyer (09-20-2002 12:07 PM).] |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
Pete: Your thoughts are appreciated. my method of capitalizing words is incosistant and in truth rarely is ever givin any thought... an oversight and failing in my technique. The word processing program I usually write in automatically begins every line with a captital letter and if I edit the word or line...usually don't think to put it back... My formal english training ( lack thereof) shows immensly in this area. the other thoughts I will again store with the poem for a while as they are valid and I want to give them further thought. Sudhir Iyer: My friend your re-write is certainly interesting and beautiful.. I like what you have done with it and will give the changes and structure some thought... thanks all... |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Ron, I have the same problem with capitalization and probably because of the same word processor. If you're using MS Word, try doing what I do. From the menu, go to Tools/AutoCorrect and remove the checkmark next to "Capitalize first letter of sentences." When you're ready to return to prose, just put the checkmark back again. This poem, I think, even more than most, reads better with appropriate capitalization and punctuation. But then, I'm a stickler for those details and realize that many aren't. I like the poem, as well as the conversational style, and would suggest only one change which has already been mentioned (and, perhaps, one question that may lead to a suggestion). Like the others, I find these lines awkward: Still holding youth in firm grasp From which their bodies had yet to wriggle out of Rob's suggestion to drop the "of" still leaves the preposition "out," and Pete's suggestion to change it to "wiggle free," while good, leaves me with a feeling of inaccuracy. Free somehow suggests a desire to escape, and I doubt the young view the strength and health of their bodies that way. I think the whole two-line phrase needs to be reworded, and I'll offer one possible suggestion shortly. My question centers around your resolution and the line: But so again does all age I find myself wanting to read this one of two ways. Either "But so again do all ages" or "But so again does age." Since I'm the only one to mention it, maybe the confusion is entirely mine, but I honestly wonder which was your intent? At any rate, here are my suggestions, with a few parenthetical notes. My eyes followed your hem, (comma added) watching the full cut drape of cloth sway in an exaggeration of the motion your hips made as you walked in front of me. (period) "She's young enough to be your daughter" ran through my mind but did not translate into voluntary muscle response. (period) I was not lusting, but envious of the 20-somethings, (hypen and comma) with bodies still reflecting their firm grasp on youth. (reworded) My eyes followed but my mind wandered and I thought that now, though older (comma removed) and certainly hunkless in form, I did not want to go back. (period) I wanted to go forward. (period) Youth has a beauty to be appreciated, but so again does all age. (period) Still, (comma, though a longer pause might be good) my eyes followed. (period) All in all, it's a really good poem with a fascinating theme. |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
Ron...you nailed it... re-written as you have and reworded where you did seems to best fit the intention and feeling of what I was attempting to convey. I appreciate your takeing the time to comment..and the re-write. |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Ok, I didn't mention punctuation because many poets don't use it at all and I noticed you did only quite sparingly. I am personally a stickler for punctuation although I don't necessarily always use it right. I never write without it. Ron is, of course, right on the money with what he added and changed. IMHO that does vastly improve the work. I do have to admit thought that I sort of miss the wriggle reference. Although maybe a little "cute" it did seem to fit the poem and my image of it. Pete Never express yourself more clearly than you can think - Niels Bohr [This message has been edited by Not A Poet (09-20-2002 03:46 PM).] |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
Pete: the wriggle reference was in some ways the hardest part of Ron's re-write for me to accept... it I thought added the element of cutteness so often seen in youth and describes the way they sometimes seem to move... that coupled with the fact their bodies have not yet "wriggled out".... perhaps a bit of a pun... still ron's version is true to the overall feel and meaning, plus he actually used punctuation!  |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Oops, I just noticed an omission in my last comment.  When I said Ron's changes vastly improved the poem, I was referring to his punctuation, not the whole poem. I don't believe that your poem could be "vastly improved", only marginally.And remember, you can accept part of his suggestions without buying into all. After all, it is your poem and I'm sure you can find a way to make wriggle work if you really want to. I know he would want me to say that  Pete |
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Cpat Hair
since 2001-06-05
Posts 11793 |
(chuckling) I think anyone that comes to have a poem looked at critically should already know they can eccept or reject the suggestions..and should not have a thin skin or nit pick other people's comments to death looking for what might offend them. I in truth have not decided what changes will be made, although Ron nailed the intent and feel quite well in his re-write and all the comments made have validity. No offense taken in any way...and not at all feeling pressured to adopt anyones ideas.. I have enjoyed the look through other people's eyes...and realized I probably need to be more attentive to the proper use of punctuation and capitalization when I write so I don't lose the purist and those that it is important to. |
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Duncan Member Ascendant
since 2001-08-07
Posts 5455 |
I liked the wriggle, too. Those two lines weren't awkward for me at all. I do agree about the capitilizing. Punctuation? Not a stickler for it. I think your poetry infers punctuation without the direct use of it. Not that I know a damn thing about poetry. I just know what I enjoy reading. |
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caterina Member
since 2002-07-25
Posts 188Canada |
This is a great poem, I really like it. Just have a couple of suggestions you might like to consider. Do you feel that you need the word 'watching' in the 2nd line of the 1st stanza? as the first line tells us that you are watching anyway? Just one other thing, stanza 3 seems to present a problem with ending with that preposition 'of.' Perhaps you can switch those 2 lines around and that way still keep the wriggle in there like so: I was not lusting, but envious of the 20 somethings from which their bodies had yet to wriggle still holding youth in firm grasp. It does seem a shame to get rid of wriggle and this may be the way to work around that. Enjoyed your write. caterina |
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