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Passions in Poetry

Critical Analysis

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kif kif
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since 06-01-2006
Posts 431
BCN


0 posted 07-24-2006 04:56 AM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

I think there needs to be a message to head the critical analysis forum, like a 'sticky' post, explaining the standard. I've been browsing the above forum for a while, and just as there are some good writes, that engage poetic skills, there are also lots of 'journal entries', and dare I say it, rubbish.

I'm not interested in how someone feels about their best friend, unless it's written well, with things to ignite my imagination. The same goes for abstractions-sad, happy, soul, heart...you know what I mean. These writes are more suited to the open forums, where the reader is not expected to give a close reading and succinct critique.

Which brings me to the comments. It's ridiculous to assume that "good write, I really love your writing" is enough. Of course, if you like something, say, but say why. That's what critical is all about!  
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


1 posted 07-28-2006 01:44 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Good point Kif Kif.

Critical Analysis is a speciality forum just like Poetry workshop.  It is a bit disappointing that basically the moderators now a day let anything go, especially poems that are just emotional words poured onto the page without special critical or poetic structure.

Many don't know the expectations of Critical Analysis.   I don't think the forum is meant to turn noncritical works into critical works.  But rather help critical works become better critical works thro collaborative critical analysis and opinion-sharing.  

Poetry workshop gets to have a clean enviroment and people that post there follow the standard of that forum.  Forums with a specific genre such as Dark, Holiday, Adult, etc also have a "standard" to some degree.  But Critical Analysis, that is a stricter forum, is cluttered with an anarchy including many poems that don't show pursuit of special poetic and critical structure.  

Ron
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Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


2 posted 07-28-2006 08:55 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Critical Analysis doesn't exist only to find strengths. Frankly, that would be rather boring and, more importantly, not very useful.

It's easy to call something rubbish or say it lacks critical structure, but it's much more helpful to others to invest the time and effort to explain why something is rubbish or what in the world critical structure is supposed to look like (I, for one, would like to know that one). To paraphrase kif kif, that's what critical is all about.

Improving CA won't be accomplished by one sweeping effort, but rather through a whole lot of very time-consuming little efforts put in by a lot of diverse people. I certainly don't want to discourage suggestions, but raising the bar in our Critical Analysis forum will be best done in there, not here.
Essorant
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since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


3 posted 07-28-2006 03:04 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"Improving CA won't be accomplished by one sweeping effort, but rather through a whole lot of very time-consuming little efforts put in by a lot of diverse people."

I certainly agree with that.

But could the link to the Critical Analysis forum be moved so that it shows up with the Poetry Workshop and English Workshop.  Really Critical Analysis is a "Workshop" isn't it?   That may not make a big difference, but I think it may make people a bit more mindy about it being a stricter forum about structure and "workshopping" a poem, rather than just casually coming into post almost anything, seemingly believing the critique-team should do all the "criticalness" for the poet!

Beau de L'air
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since 08-03-2006
Posts 103
Middlesex, England


4 posted 08-06-2006 05:03 PM       View Profile for Beau de L'air   Email Beau de L'air   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Beau de L'air

"You can take a (rhymes with store) to culture but you can't make her think       (Dorothy Parker)

A pun on "You can take a horse to water..."  Apologies to those who dislike jokes explained... I sympathise.

I agree with La canadienne above and Kif is a supreme example of someone who makes an effort.  But not everyone is a born critic. It's unfair to think they can be.   I've found most people acknowledge that you have critiqued their work.   You can't expect more, even though you might want more..  Also I think there are folk out there who probably take their time over their poetry criticism as well as their poetry.  Mind you the number of scribblers with "thousands" of poems under their belt is disturbing!  They're probably in jail,  poor things.

[This message has been edited by Beau de L'air (08-08-2006 03:30 AM).]

Ron
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Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


5 posted 08-06-2006 09:53 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
... there should be a advisory message entreating posters(?) to have a care with their poems ...

Why just poems, I wonder? Shouldn't equal care be taken with all communications? Even, perhaps, with suggestions?  
Beau de L'air
Member
since 08-03-2006
Posts 103
Middlesex, England


6 posted 08-07-2006 06:08 PM       View Profile for Beau de L'air   Email Beau de L'air   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Beau de L'air

Nah, suggestions are allowed to be hopeless....

[This message has been edited by Beau de L'air (08-08-2006 03:08 AM).]

kif kif
Member
since 06-01-2006
Posts 431
BCN


7 posted 08-08-2006 04:52 AM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

There I go again, booted foot forward...

I see what you're saying, Ron, but if we're constantly stuck on the "great write, loved it, thanks" comments, it's difficult for the beginner to get further, and it keeps the more knowlegable back, because 'reams of twiddle' gets boring.

I'll pull myself up to a standard, through giving a line by line breakdown on poems I like, and I'll do a bit more reading to harness the terms, but I must say, it would be easier if everyone in Critical Analysis critiqued to their best efforts. I'd learn quicker, for sure.
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


8 posted 08-08-2006 10:08 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Nah, suggestions are allowed to be hopeless....

LOL. Then why did you go back and completely change yours?

quote:
I see what you're saying, Ron, but if we're constantly stuck on the "great write, loved it, thanks" comments, it's difficult for the beginner to get further, and it keeps the more knowlegable back, because 'reams of twiddle' gets boring.

I've never noticed "that" many responses of that kind in Critical Analysis, Kif Kif, though I recognize there will always be some. Outside of CA, of course, responses of that kind are perfectly acceptable because we're not going to assume that all beginners necessarily want to "get further." There's a lot of people here and I doubt any two are here for exactly the same reasons. And that's cool, because all those rambling paths eventually wend to the same destination. Some just like the scenic route, I suppose.

In my experience, people don't learn new habits from announcements or sticky threads. Those who read them don't need them, and those who need them never read them. People learn, instead, from examples being set by others.


Beau de L'air
Member
since 08-03-2006
Posts 103
Middlesex, England


9 posted 08-08-2006 10:47 AM       View Profile for Beau de L'air   Email Beau de L'air   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Beau de L'air

Because it was dire.  ( Too many lagers and lime)
kif kif
Member
since 06-01-2006
Posts 431
BCN


10 posted 08-08-2006 11:17 AM       View Profile for kif kif   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for kif kif

What you're saying Ron, is right, after all, there are styles and approaches that may offer beauty without adhering to 'known' rules. It's just, even in Critical, some people are so used to being positive and nice about works, that if someone new like me goes in to breakdown a poem, some offence may be felt. I don't like offending anybody, that's partly why I feel more at home in Critical, as the idea is to review things.

I agree, it's all about 'keeping going'. As a new user, I'm still finding people that are helping me with their examples. I never did have much patience...
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


11 posted 08-08-2006 06:19 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

How come Severn and Brad never post in Critical Analysis anymore?  
 
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