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Interloper
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0 posted 07-30-2001 07:57 PM       View Profile for Interloper   Email Interloper   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Interloper


I think it may be a good idea to have a forum somewhere between the Open Forum and the Adult Forum where adults can write adult poetry that is not "X" rated and where you must be an adult to enter.  

What do you think?
SEA
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1 posted 07-30-2001 08:13 PM       View Profile for SEA   Email SEA   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for SEA

I think I'd like that too.  
Poeminister
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since 02-26-2000
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2 posted 07-30-2001 10:02 PM       View Profile for Poeminister   Email Poeminister   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Poeminister's Home Page   View IP for Poeminister

Forum Name: "Sensual Poetry"?
Moderator: Interloper(?)  

Forum Guidelines: ?????
Poet deVine
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3 posted 07-30-2001 11:58 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

The members in Adult Forum have always been the ones to decide what is appropriate to post. If you don't like the harder poetry, please complain or don't reply to it. Then it will turn into the kind of forum you are suggesting.

It's hard enough sometimes, knowing what is Adult and what isn't..to have a 'softer' Adult would add to the problem...sigh.
Nan
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4 posted 07-31-2001 09:41 AM       View Profile for Nan   Email Nan   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nan's Home Page   View IP for Nan

Our Adult Forum is NOT intended to be an 'X' rated forum.  It's purely and simply for posts that are adult in nature.  It does contain some more explicit works, perhaps... but it's not out of the realm of what you suggest here...
Temptress
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5 posted 07-31-2001 08:02 PM       View Profile for Temptress   Email Temptress   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Temptress

Yanno..A while back I thought it would be a good idea to have a forum for stricly softly sensual work, but I think in co moderating with Sharon in Adult, I have gained a different attitude and perspective. I love it there as I always did, but find that I am a little more accepting of stuff there that I wasn't once before. I don't think at this time a seperate forum is a good idea, because I believe it would then lead people to believe that Adult is simply for hardcore and explicit material when in fact, it is not. There certainly is explicit material there, but if anyone cares to go a little deeper than the first page (and delve into our archives) there is plenty of softly done stuff there.  

My only other suggestion a while back was for an Adult Witing Discussion forum that is password protected.  I like to post announcements, discussions, and challenges stricly for Adult; but often feel it takes away from the poetry reading.  I still post my discussions, etc, though because it is the only place to do so at this time. I also think until Adult becomes a more busy place that we won't be seeing such discussion forum.   Those are my thoughts anyways. I hope I haven't rambled for too long. Laters!
DUH ME   I just wanted to add that the archives aren't the only place at this time where softly sensual stuff is located.  

[This message has been edited by Temptress (edited 07-31-2001).]

Interloper
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6 posted 07-31-2001 08:23 PM       View Profile for Interloper   Email Interloper   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Interloper

I certainly did not mean to offend anyone with regard to "X" rated poetry.  I really meant "explicit" poetry.

I see a forum for teens, an open forum and and adult forum.  I guess I meant I would like to see an adult forum where innuendo would not harm more "tender" eyes.  If the teen forum is for teens, then let's have the open forum for anyone 20 years or older.

I am new and don't really want to change everything, however I feel that there is a real chasm between the open and adult forums and something in between might be good.

I joined the adult forum and found most of the pieces there very explicit.  I didn't feel it necessary to dig into the archives since I got a good look at a few dozen works that were mostly explicit.  Certainly most were explicit.  And that is fine for anyone who desires to participate in that forum.

I only ask for a forum that is more adult in nature and that the content might offend the sensibilities of younger people.  Having just written this I find it to be ludicrous but I will leave it here because that's just what the Poetry Police said when they pulled a work of mine, and the accompanying image.  They said younger folks read and post to the Open Forum.  Most younger folks see and read worse than that every day. HAH!  I guess were have a Catch-22 here...


Poeminister
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Regina SK; Canada


7 posted 07-31-2001 09:41 PM       View Profile for Poeminister   Email Poeminister   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Poeminister's Home Page   View IP for Poeminister

I agree with what you say.
And would like to suggest an idea that perhaps the Adult Forum itself should be split into two sections--one could be called "Sensual Poetry" (for romance and more sensual poetries- less explicit) and the other called "Erotic Poetry" (for erotic and more sexual and more explicit writings)...and that way there'd only be one passworded route still, and you can go to either section as you wish.  And have no fear you might find X rated poems where you are looking for the A rated ones.
Do you think it a good idea??
Ron
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8 posted 07-31-2001 09:53 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

"Younger folk" isn't a reason, it's just a very easy justification. One that I've been trying to break our Moderators from using for a LONG time. Obviously, with less than complete success.

The segregation of the forums boils down to a single word: Choice.

Open Poetry is reserved for everyone (impossible as we all know that is), whether it be your boss, your spouse, or your children. I like knowing I could invite my mother to browse the forums without being embarrassed by what she might find. I like being able to read poetry while eating, knowing I'm not going to lose my appetite. I certainly think there's a need for non-Mom poetry, and I think it's good to have your appetite jarred occasionally, but I want to have the choice.

As for the younger readers, the Guidelines already exclude anything truly objectionable, such as suicide, hate mongering, or gratuitous violence, and you won't find that kind of material in ANY forum. The Adult forum exists to provide a choice for everyone, and it is password protected to give the parents a choice. Personally, I don't feel a great need to "protect" children (kids are smart, and opening the door for discussion is always good), but I do feel a need to protect the rights of parents to make their own decisions.

I actually have no real problem with an "Erotica" forum, except in the sense of logistics. Deciding what is suitable for Open and what is too adult to be suitable is hard enough. Trying to decide "how much" adult something is would be much more difficult. Where do you draw the line between explicit and suggestive? I suspect you would draw that line much differently than would I (most of the work I've seen moved to Adult would still go to Adult in my view). I really dislike the position of having to move threads from one password-protected forum into a different password-protected forum. To me, that sounds a bit like the sound of spinning wheels.
rosepetals25
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9 posted 08-01-2001 12:56 PM       View Profile for rosepetals25   Email rosepetals25   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rosepetals25

Well... I can see both sides of this discussion. I was actually thinking the same thing Interloper.. .yesterday as a matter a fact.  The adult forum now seems centered on explicit poetry.  I have no problem with that.. I visit the adult forum and have posted some of those "explicit" poetry. However, when I have something that I write that is definately objectional.. and I know won't be accepted in Open... I don't think it neccessarily fits in the Adult forum either.  Therefore.. I just don't post it.

Ron makes a good point to.. where to draw the line at what "adult" poetry is...  I know I wouldn't want the job.  

So.. there's my thoughts on it.  

TaraB

Interloper
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10 posted 08-01-2001 03:13 PM       View Profile for Interloper   Email Interloper   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Interloper

I really like the basic idea PM has.  Would that be too much "spinning" of wheels?

Ron ~ I don't know how old your Mom is, but my Mother would not completely understand "implied" sensuality , but she certainly knows "explicit" sex when she sees it.  She has watched TV migrate over the years and still doesn't undestand what today's 7th grader uses in common locker room (or in the hall) language.

I like the idea of an Open forum for all to read and post good, wholesome poetry.  I don't think I've ever posted anything objectionable (though one was moved) and I have never posted any image that is not currently being displayed in a museum somewhere in the world to which junior high and high school students travel to visit in droves, and all sanctioned by their schools and with parental approval.


http://members.home.net/excalibur2501/Interloper.htm

[This message has been edited by Interloper (edited 08-01-2001).]

Ron
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11 posted 08-01-2001 04:26 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
I really like the basic idea PM has.  Would that be too much "spinning" of wheels?


I'm not sure I entirely understand the idea. There is no way to "split" a forum without it becoming two forums. And even if it were possible, it doesn't change the underlying problem. Someone still has to decide where to put the fence.

Drawings from a high school sex ed text, presumably sanctioned and approved, can become just "dirty pictures" if the context changes. When you intentionally mix words and images, the two become joined and should no longer be interpreted as single entities. An image in a museum has one meaning. Displayed with poetry, that meaning can shift and sensual undertones can easily become sexual suggestions. Similarly, I've seen poems that might otherwise have been given the benefit of the doubt pushed into Adult because the image removed the doubts. Each changes the meaning, or at least the emphasis, of the other. That you or others might see it differently only underscores the difficult judgements our Moderators have to make. I'm not convinced another password-protected forum wouldn't turn a difficult job into an impossible one.
Interloper
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12 posted 08-01-2001 09:52 PM       View Profile for Interloper   Email Interloper   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Interloper

Okay, Ron, you're the boss.  We shall play by your rules.  After all, someone has to make the rules and we either play by them or "sit on the bench."

I figured out the verbiage and image combination and, to tell you the truth, I agree with you.  That is why I no longer post images ... that and bandwidth considerations.

Thanks for your candid responses and taking the time to give them.
Mote
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13 posted 08-01-2001 11:20 PM       View Profile for Mote   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mote

I think it like a massage--some people like it just sensual, and some people like it erotic.
Its just a different taste.  And they can be far apart because "erotic" can be very explicit and offensive if you don't have the particular taste that someone else might.  I reckon it would bring more people into Adult if there were two seperate forums because there are people who are detterred because of some of the expliciteness of the majority of poems in the forum currently --that the authors may not even think are that explicit because that's their taste.  
The "fence" should be raised where the poetry is no longer just richly sensual but erotic and sexual.


[This message has been edited by Mote (edited 08-03-2001).]

Poet deVine
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14 posted 08-01-2001 11:21 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

What if we put an 'X' on the post if it's explicit and an 'R' if it's just erotic?
Nan
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15 posted 08-02-2001 09:40 AM       View Profile for Nan   Email Nan   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nan's Home Page   View IP for Nan

There ya go - Those who post in Adult can monitor themselves... I like it, PdV...
Sven
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16 posted 08-03-2001 10:06 AM       View Profile for Sven   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Sven

It would seem to me, Sir, that you’re more upset about your poem being moved to Adult, than you are about wanting another Forum.  

Believe it or not, we’ve had this discussion before. . . and it always winds up the same.  People, whether they mean it or not, seem to come off like their work is “not the same” as some of the things that they see over in Adult.

True, Adult mainly contains erotic and sensual writing, but we’ve also had topics there that were “Adult” in nature that didn’t contain any erotic thoughts or feelings.  The phrase that we use there is “Mature topics”.  Now, for most people, that means erotica (I’ve always wondered why).  But, that phrase means so much more than that.  It means that you’re able to explore feelings and words that you probably couldn’t use in Open (within Passions’ guidelines of course).  

Now, I’ve seen some things in Open recently that I feel don’t belong there.  People have been far too liberal with the graphics that they’re choosing to illustrate their poems.  (Most of the time, the poems aren’t “Adult” in nature, but the graphics they use are.)  And I don’t envy the Moderators of Open the task of deciding what stays and what goes.  Also, there’s the matter of what the poem actually says that decides what stays and what gets moved to “Adult”.  (There’s also a consideration here of not turning Adult into a “dumping ground”, but that’s another discussion.)  It’s a very fine line, one that too many people seem to be walking just because (in my opinion) they don’t want their work to be considered “Adult”.

Now, then, when we had this discussion earlier, the point was made that if a work was placed in Adult, that it wouldn’t get seen by a lot of people.  Well, I’ve got some news for you, we’ve got more “lurkers” in Adult than I think most people realize.  Why don’t they make themselves more known?  There are a myriad of reasons, most of which you can probably already figure out for yourself.

Adult runs the gamut.  It really does.  We’ve got the soft, sensual works there, and we’ve got the hardcore, blatantly sexual works there.  I’ll admit to writing both.  We allow people to explore that side of themselves, in a place where we admire good writing, and where we just like to have fun!  

So, back to the question at hand, “Do we need another forum for this?”  The answer is, again, “NO”.  There’s no shame in being in Adult, people won’t think any less of you because you have a poem there, in fact, we’ll applaud you for being there!!  There’s always room for more excellent Adult writing and Adult poets.

Let me also say that, as I have said before, “rating” of Adult poems is something that I will not do.  I don’t feel that it’s necessary.  Mainly because my idea of what an “R” rated poem would be is probably someone else’s idea of and “X” rated poem.  My work is my work, that’s it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To the world, you may only be one person. But to one person, you may be the world.

Interloper
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17 posted 08-05-2001 01:13 PM       View Profile for Interloper   Email Interloper   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Interloper

Gee, Sven, I dint mean to get you upset.  And, NO, I am no longer angry at having a poem moved to Adult.  After all, it was only one poem and the real problem was the synergy of the poem and the graphic.

I no longer "lurk" at Adult because when I asked that my work be removed from Adult the moderator(s) complied and even removed me, my access, from Adult.

I'm almost, not quite, sorry I even made the suggestion ... especially if it would anger and offend you my friend.


http://members.home.net/excalibur2501/interloper.htm

[This message has been edited by Interloper (edited 08-06-2001).]

Sven
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18 posted 08-06-2001 02:53 PM       View Profile for Sven   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Sven

Well, my friend, I really don’t think that you posted this with the intent to make me upset or offended. . . but, I’m afraid that you’re wrong in thinking that I am either of those.  A little annoyed perhaps, but not upset or offended.  And, not really annoyed at you, but rather at the idea of why people seem to not understand why we only need to have one Forum for Adult and Erotic writing.

I notice that you said that you’re no longer angry at having your poem moved to Adult.  My question then would be, why were you angry in the first place?  Do you feel that you were singled out?  Do you feel that your poem should not have been moved to Adult?  What is the reason?  

Was there any question in your mind as to whether the nature of the poem or the graphic when you decided to post it?  Given that you’re aware of the guidelines for Open, did you take that into account before you posted your poem?  Or was it just something that you really didn’t think would be looked at or moved?

I would say, to you, and to anyone else, that if you do have a question about a graphic or a poem that you’re going to put into Open, that you contact one of the Open moderators and ask their advice.  They are the experts on this, and they would be more than happy to help you.

Next question: Why did you have the work removed from Adult?  Did you not think that it would get read there?  Or did you think that we would think differently of you because you posted there?  I’ve already said that we would have welcomed you with open arms and would have given your work the attention and the kudos that it deserved, I’m sure it was a fine poem, and I am sorry that I missed it.  

Now then, to something that I think no one really wants to speak of.  (And I’m not speaking to you directly my friend, I’m speaking to a lot of people here.)I feel that among some poets, that there’s a sort of “stigma” (for lack of a better word) about posting in Adult.  Poets have written “borderline” poems that, as I’ve said before, “walk that line” just a little too close.  Why?  Why try to skirt the guidelines?  If you’ve got a work that might be considered “too sensual” (again, for lack of a better term) why not post it in Adult?  Do you think that it’s not going to be read?  Do you feel that your work is “too good” to be seen in Adult?  Do you feel that Adult is only for really hardcore, explicit writing?  What’s the reason?

Well, I think that I’ve said enough here. . . I can only hope my friend, that you will reconsider about joining us in Adult, and that if anyone else would like to, that they feel free to ask Poet deVine or Ron for access to the Forum and that they enjoy themselves as much as possible.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

To the world, you may only be one person. But to one person, you may be the world.

Interloper
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19 posted 08-06-2001 04:21 PM       View Profile for Interloper   Email Interloper   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Interloper

Sven, I don't think the poem was unacceptable for the Open forum.  I do see, upon calm reflection, that the synergy of the poem and the graphic, a fine museum piece, made the WHOLE unacceptable in the Open forum.

I did not think my work was too good for Adult at all.  In fact, all (two or three) I wrote was almost totally ignored in Adult, especially the poem in question.  Therefore, I felt I was not providing that forum with the "type" of work wanted by the members therein.

I was angry because my work was moved to the Adult Forum when I believed it to be no worse than many others in the Open Forum.  Yes, I felt singled out.  

In retrospect, I should have asked.  I obviously made an error in judgement.  As a result, I will let the words of my work speak for themselves and will not employ he use of a graphic with my work in the future.

I asked to have my work removed out of anger.  I was still "feuding" with certain folks.  Was it a proper decision?  I don't know.  Since hardly anybody read my work it should have been of little note to anyone but me.  Would I do anything differently, yes.

My feelings about Adult are that most of the work there, that is the most read, is rather graphic in nature.  I won't call it hardcore because it is not my right to judge.  I don't particularly like graphic forms because I like my imagination to be able to work ... it is so much better than the written word, in my opinion.

I hope I have answered all your questions.  Again, the synergy of the poem and the graphic made it an inappropriate post ... I now undestand that.

My anger was the synergy of having my work moved and my perception that a moderator accused me of an act that I would abhor.  Being new, no one knew me or my sense of honor ... still the perceived accusation inflamed me beyond my ability to explain in a rational manner.  I have now gotten past that and have forgiven the moderator, understanding that the moderator may have just inadvertantly formed the verbiage where I took it as an accusation.

AngelShell
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20 posted 08-12-2001 03:14 AM       View Profile for AngelShell   Email AngelShell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for AngelShell

After reading most of the replies here (and skim reading most of the long winded ones) I feel as a 'kid/teenager/younger one' that I need to say something.
I would firstly like to challenge Interloper's suggestion that considering the fact that we have a teen forum then why don't we make the open forum 20 years and over.  For a start, I know a lot of poets that repeatedly appear in the Teen forum aren't neccesarily teens themselves.  And I know that I do personally tire of the material found in Teen (the same old, "he/she-hurt-me-and-now-I'm-wounded-for-life-how-will-I-ever-move-on") and an occasional trip to the Open Forum and Dark Passions relieves me of my ache to punch a hole in the wall.  Therefore, if you made the Open Forum 20+ it would mean that I, at the tender age of 15 wouldn't be allowed in.  Merely one more place that we find ourselves excluded from.

Secondly, wandering from the originating topic slightly...reading some of the poems/discussions that have been closed due to a breech of Passion's Guidelines, I find myself asking the same old question - "when does it change from being 'screening' to being 'over sensitive'.
As a society in general, expressing feelings that may be classified as 'unsuitable' is a very neccesary part of living, and if, as poets, we can't express that anger, then where can we?  And the material found in 'Dark Passions' is hardly what would classify as Dark anyway.
I know that many peopole I've talked to think the moderation of some poems has been over done.

And I know that you have to draw the line somewhere but maybe that line could be brought back slightly?

It was just an idea.

~I haven't memorized all of the cute things to say but I'm working on it~

 
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