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A Few Questions
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A Few Questions |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration 
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Incumbent upon us first as human beings, is to be human. What is human? Is human being trustworthy, honest, devout? Or is it defined by abstracts such as thought and love? Are we defined by our actions, our deeds, or maybe our words? And who defines? Who is the judge of all things human? Is it God? And if so, then what basis does he use to judge? If we are in fact molded in God's image, then is God not just as fallible as we? And if God is perfect, then how was imperfection created? And if imperfection was created by a perfect hand, then how can it fairly be judged against perfection? Is there any way to compare against perfection, since anything less is not? Is there anyway besides blind belief to believe in God? How can someone believe in something that is intangible? How can one deny the possibility of the unknown? Do we create from our beliefs, or are we created by them? Are there any solid answers to my questions? |
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Michael
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-13
Posts 7666California |
Man, you hit home on a bunch of issues here Have always pondered the "imperfection" thing myself... if you get any "real" answers let me know.. Good piece btw. ------------------ Michael Anderson And so, being young and dipt in folly I fell in love with melancholy, But dreams - of those who dream as I, Aspiringly, are damned, and die: EAP |
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DreamEvil Member Elite
since 1999-06-22
Posts 2396 |
Your first four questions posed are basically the same thing, but here we go. By the numbers. Human is the capacity for reason within the species Homo Sapiens. It is feeling the full range and scope of emotion. It is conforming to the median standard of mores, taboos and values proscribed to by whole of humanity. Cultural and religious differences aside. The capapcity for variations in thought and ideals helps to define Human as well. Yes to all, but you forgot avarice, deceit, egotism, jealousy, rage, murder, hatred, and a entire encyclopedia of others. You cannot define Human without including the bad with the good. The ability to visualize and act on abstract ideas and concepts is the hallmark of sentience so I would say that indeed the abstracts help define the species, as do the individual perceptions of them. Our Self is defined by actions and words, as is how others perceive us.Words shape thought which is what the Self is. Deeds define us in the perceptions of others. The individual Self defines itself with what it perceives and what it thinks. The only scale by which Human can be measured is the median of all things held in common by every Human. Humanity then becomes it's own judge. God is the author of all things Human, not just it's judge. That makes Him biased. If He is that judge then we are being judged by His own criteria. God's fallibility? Not necessarily, we are his reflection but if the mirror is warped, then we are twisted from His image, like funhouse mirrors. God is all things. What imperfection? Lucifer? No. He was perfect even in his sin. Again, we come to perception for the answer. It can't. This is paradox incarnate. A perfect hand could not create imperfection, nor be able to judge it. Comparison can only be done if perfection can be perceived. Only if you can accept another's interpretation of the truth can you believe with more than blind faith. Faith is believing without evidence. Because the unknown is frightening to some, others just don't want to be wrong. Both. We are created by and create our beliefs. There are many solid answers to each question you pose. They are all dependent on your degree of faith and the power of your perceptions. Keep in mind that the preceeding list of answers, is nothing more than my perception of the answers to those same questions. ------------------ Now and forever my heart hears ~one voice~. DreamEvil© |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
Thank you Michael, what is life without questions, or the search for answers? (Notice yet another question!)  Dream, thank you friend for a detailed response. You know I value your opinion, even if I don't always agree. And I agree with you here, up until you hit the scale by which humanity can be judged. What is common to all humans? Is it intelligence? Some humans have the intelligence of apes, so does that make them not human, or make the apes human? Or is it shape? But what then of the differences between male and female, children and adults. Is color or race a factor? Is language? Is the ability to build? (refer back to apes.) You see my point. What is there really that can be held as complete common ground for humanity? For anything I can think of, there are dissimilarities in at least some of what we term humanity. So then, how do we judge? Do we have to determine which characteristics are the most important? I aslo want to take a peek at the part about God creating imperfection. If we were created by God, and we are imperfect, then God created imperfection. (I agree about Satan) Now, if we are not imperfect, then that means that God is fallible as are we. Paradox indeed. If we are perfect, then how can we not see ourselves as perfect even though we would have perfect observations? And a paradox within a paradox. If a perfect hand could not create imperfection, yet we were created by god, perhaps through a warped mirror, then isn't that still imperfection. If God created everything, then wouldn't that warped mirror be imperfect? If God is all things, then God is mankind. If mankind is imperfect, then God is imperfect. Again, you see my point. Thank you for your response again Dream, it really made me think, a pastime I value above all else! |
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Systematic Decay Senior Member
since 1999-09-15
Posts 1301That place with padded walls and funny people in white......... |
In response to this whole idea about God creating imperfection.... What if God didn't create us at all, but we created God because we needed something to believe in? Because we needed something PERFECT to believe in? Because what lies after death is unknown, and we wanted to think that something better waits for the righteous and holy, and that the damned can be eternally punished? And if God didn't create us, what did? There are no definite answers to anything that cannot be definitely proven one way or another. ------------------ "Despite all my rage, I am still just a rat in a cage." -Billy Corgan- |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
Systematic Decay Said: quote: Proof is subjective. What I deem as proof may and probably is different from what you believe to be truth. The term is Agnostic. Not to believe one way or the other, without sufficient proof. But if proof is subjective, and subjectivity is belief, and belief is faith and faith is the belief without proof, then we're back to square one. Systematic Decay Said: quote: Personal belief: I believe that mankind did indeed create God. Our own inadequacies and inability to understand our "place" in the grand scheme of things may have indeed led us to creating our own answer. God is that answer. In whatever form, a divine being or beings is/are found in the form of religion. This is not a sign that God really exists in my mind, but rather that each culture decides what it wants or fears to believe in and "creates: it. Wizard's First Rule: Man will believe in something either because he really wants to, or is really afraid to. -Terry Goodkind; Wizard's First Rule- There is much truth in the statement. It is why we create monsters and footsteps in the dark, it is why we see love when none actually exists. No one is exempt. No one. I'm not saying it can't be avoided, merely that you must constantly guard yourself against deception. Desiring proof for the "unprovable" is yet another form. It may be that your fear of believing in a higher power has caused you to convince yourself that you need proof befor you can believe... Sorry 'bout rambling... [This message has been edited by Christopher (edited 09-26-1999).] |
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DreamEvil Member Elite
since 1999-06-22
Posts 2396 |
Look at the similarities that the majority of humanity has in common. Physically, we are basically the same. Under a given set of circumstances, individuals will react with surprising similarity. If there were no such commonality, there could be no doctors nor psychologists, no sociologists or therapists either as there would be no common ground to start from. Plainly, this is not the case. Society becomes then judge for what is considered humanity. Regarding imperfection, God did create man in His image. Perfection was lost when man ate of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. God also gives us free will (though we are supposed to choose His will over our own. With free will comes the capacity to make imperfect choices. Another possibility; we are perfect but imperfect reality cannot help but reflect itslef upon us. ------------------ Now and forever my heart hears ~one voice~. DreamEvil© |
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Severn Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704 |
Wahoo! This is what I like, a chance to slag off at God (sorry any Christians who read that - don't worry, I'm the one going to hell, not you...!) I haven't time to answer every one right now, but I will give you my view on the imperfection thing. It's all our fault, Chris. God is apparently perfect - and blameless, too. Yep. We did it. God gave us freewill so we wouldn't be moronic robots who were forced into loving him; we got to choose. And of course, Adam and Eve just HAD to eat that damned apple, and so brought sin into the world. There was no sin until that apple was crunched. No imperfection existed. Yeah right. It doesn't wash that well with me. Lets think about this. God makes man. God makes woman. Man and woman screw up completely, shortly after being created. God allows the world to continue in sin, so that now the majority of us are miserable. Yay. What...did he lose the freaking blueprints? (My bitter side emerges...) To me, the very fact that he allowed, though apparently didn't create (?), imperfection to exist suggests to me that he is imperfect himself. If he created us knowing our tendency for sin, since he apparently knows everything in advance, then why put the tree of knowledge in front of curious human beings in the first place?! And given the fact that He is apparently the creator and all things come from him, the idea of his not having any influence on imperfection is utterly ludricous. There, that's all I have time for. I'll be back. I could go on for days.... Love getting into that mind of yours Chris... |
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Systematic Decay Senior Member
since 1999-09-15
Posts 1301That place with padded walls and funny people in white......... |
Seeing that I don't know the story of Adam and Eve very well, I can't get into a deep philisophical discussion about that. I honestly don't know what I think about God. If we did indeed create Him in our minds, it stands to reason that he won't save (or condemn) us anymore than the monster under the bed attacked us when we were kids. However if God does exist, and if he enforces his rules, then why should I even try, for I am already damned. Then again, perhaps God has forsaken this planet, seeing how we humans have ruined it, and moved on to a new one in a far away galaxy to try again, until he finally does acheive the perfect planet. Or maybe God is forgiving, in which case I should try to be good, but if he's forgiving what does it matter, I could screw around my whole life the repent and go on my merry way to heaven. Well, I'm not sure, I can't say I know all the ins and outs of the bible, so if I'm making erroneous statements here, sorry. I will say that Chris is right on one thing...it all leads back to square one with this. There are so many varying opinions, who's to say who's right? ------------------ "Despite all my rage, I am still just a rat in a cage." -Billy Corgan- |
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DreamEvil Member Elite
since 1999-06-22
Posts 2396 |
I do not believe God is omniscient (if He exists), merely omnipotent. After all, He did not know what it was like to be a man until He lived as one. Severn, I use the caps to He merely to denote significance. 1.) God is all-powerful. 2.) God is good. 3.) God abhors evil. 4.) God would therefore create no evil. 5.) We see that evil exists. 6.) Therefore there is no God or God is not all-powerful. Just a thought I remember from an old read and thought it might apply here. ------------------ Now and forever my heart hears ~one voice~. DreamEvil© |
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Isis Member Ascendant
since 1999-09-06
Posts 6296Sunny Queensland |
I'm not sure what to say, we will never know the mind of God for one. Secondly a perfect world isn't something I want for everything then would be truly destined, like you are friends with so and so and when you grow up you marry so and so. There would be no spontaniety(?), then what would happen if you didn't like the spouse God chose for you what would you do then? For there would be no divorce probably in this perfect world. I think you have to believe in God in your own special way... I believe in God, but don't go to church. I live my life the best way I can, and if God doesn't know me or understand, perhaps heaven isn't gonna be such a wonderful place anyways.. Perfection, is probably what we personally deem as perfect, for something God thinks is perfect we might not like, eg. Disease, snakes, spiders etc. Well Chris, don't know if I am even intelligent enough to be here discussing this subject, but I came from your invitation, so email me again and tell me what you thought of my thoughts.... ------------------ A hero is a man who does what he can. ~Isis~ (The Fragile Rose) |
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Systematic Decay Senior Member
since 1999-09-15
Posts 1301That place with padded walls and funny people in white......... |
"1.) God is all-powerful. 2.) God is good. 3.) God abhors evil. 4.) God would therefore create no evil. 5.) We see that evil exists. 6.) Therefore there is no God or God is not all-powerful." Great point Dream. But what if it isn't that God can't get rid of the evil that was created by whatever force created it, it's just that he doesn't care anymore about this world...... Isis, this has nothing to do with intelligence, as I hvae yet to find an unintelligemnt person in this forum, and doubt I ever will. It's just a discussion of different views we have. You also brought up an interesting point about how we might not see eye to eye with God on what is or isn't perfect. I agree that perfection would be a bad thing. If evrything was perfect, that would mean that all humans had the exact same response to another perfect thing. If we had varying responses, it wouldn't be perfect. I'm at a loss for words for what I'm trying to say....... Ok picture the owrld as a big puzzle. In a perfect world, all peices would be square and i dentical in color, so we knew exactly where it went without any searching. However it would fall apart easily, so therefore perfection wouldn't be perfect..... Picture the imperfect world as a puzzle with billions of peices with irregular shapes and colors. And picture the evolution of the world (EX: creation, the first life, Adam and Eve, dinasours, wars, whatever you believe to have happened thus far in the course of the earth's life)as something (fate, God, science, whatever you believe in) putting that puzzle together. And when the puzzle is done, there will be more evolution of the world, That will be the end of the world, which may come on the form of the Apocalypse, or the sun changing forms so that we either freeze of become cooked...you get my point. OK this was meant to be a brienf reply sorry for going on and on........ ------------------ "Despite all my rage, I am still just a rat in a cage." -Billy Corgan- [This message has been edited by Systematic Decay (edited 09-30-1999).] |
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