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Christopher
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Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296
Purgatorial Incarceration

0 posted 1999-08-15 03:42 AM


A twisted dimension of rollicking demons lies buried beneath the frail layers of mankind's self-proclaimed civilization.
Waiting to be released, to wreak their long suppressed anger on others.
A thin veneer of society is all that binds these tormented spirits.
Locked away in the souls of those who walk the earth, they strive to be free.
Forced to claw their way to the surface, one occasionally breaks loose, to have its way with those who shun its evil.
While many search for the reasons, very few see it for what it really is, the darkness that every heart hides.
It does not ‘hide' however, it yearns to show itself, strives for recognition of its gruesome art.
And like any artist, it is never seen for what it truly is.
And what is it in truth, but us?
There are no mystical demons that come forth to possess us.
It is only the evil of our own hearts, manifest in a near physical presence.
A form that inches closer and closer as we unwittingly stretch our necks farther and farther across the chopping block.
Inch by inch, we destroy ourselves, until the day we allow the long hidden dark side to emerge.
And then, war, famine, disease, pestilence.
The four horsemen of the apocalypse shall ride across a shattered society of self-deluded maniacs.
Helping us, we destroy our homes-our cities-our planet.
The ones we love crumble to dust in our murderous hands, until the last, when we will see what we have done, see the horror of what we are.
We will change our ways and once again drive the demons from sight.
And realize the bitter truth.
Realize that there is no hope as we turn our own hands against ourselves and choke the life from our very own throats, as we did to all else.

------------------
...the things I did not know at first, I learned by doing twice.
-Billy Joel

© Copyright 1999 C.G. Ward - All Rights Reserved
Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704

1 posted 1999-08-16 12:55 PM


My dear - how without hope this is! I feel sad for you, that you feel this way. I hope this isn't all you see humankind as - demonic destroyers. I do like the way you have written this though - it is powerful. Here's a thought that helps to explain some of the misery we see around us, and a credible one I believe. Anthropologists have discovered that much of our problems stem from the advent of agriculture and farming - when we forsook the hunter/gathering way of life, we slipped into decline. Sure we live longer and have better medical care, not to mention technology but there are other results also: Our population growth increased to the extent it is today. 'Ownership' of land and resources led to social stratification and the inequality between men and women - and class divisions also. The way we have managed our crops has led to much of the famine and disease in the world - we fail to allow the earth to rejuvenate itself due to the needs of our out of control population. People ask why people in Africa keep having children when so many die - one reason could be the need for labour, to work the land etc. And with the shift into cities - our sense of community has been narrowed to family and activity groups. Add it all up - and we get a large amount of frustrated people, out to look after themselves. Honestly - do some reading about people like the Kalihari bushmen or the baMbuti of Zaire. While not perfect - their H/G existence seems slightly happier than our own! Take heart - I don't believe we are naturally evil at all. Do you think the people on this forum are?
Christopher
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Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296
Purgatorial Incarceration
2 posted 1999-08-16 02:49 AM


Interesting response Severn. And well thought out. I appreciate that you didn't just "spout off" from the top of your head. It appears you really put some thought into this.
After a fashion, I agree with you. However, only to the extent that "community" mutes our natural inclinations. If you watch a young child, (mostly apparent in boys I admit,) you will often find them lashing out. Now, some of this stems from confusion, or abuse, or what have you. But irreguardless, the fury is there. And by witholding this fury, (because "civilization" requires it,) we only allow it to build up. Either way, the youngster doesn't have to be shown how to respond in anger. It is built-in. Our "demon" tells us how to vent our frustration.
Now take these bushmen, the Kalihari. Granted, they live amongst themselves in an idyllic peace. But what about them is different from us? Is it their lack of technology? Their "inferior" culture? No, what separates them from us, is that they have an outlet for their frustrations. They do not seek to hold their demons in. Instead, they unleash themselves in the natural course of their survival.
Yet if you look at us, we are not allowed to release our demons, to thereby render them ineffective. Instead, we jail them, and allow our fury to build, while those around us do the same. Then, heaven forbid, should someone be incapable of restraining their fury, (perhapst their angst is greater, for whatever reason -abuse, neglect, etc,) those around reap the rewards. As an example, look at the rise of brutal slayings. These are people who have either chosen, or been forced to allow their demon free reign. Some argue that the impending millenium is responsible, but I think that it is only part of a larger issue. Sexual abuse is on the rise, more children are born into poverty, unwanted by any other than those who run the streets, freeing their own demons. I look at it as a self-perpetuating disease. The more anger and hate there is, the more that anger and hate is fed.

Now, don't completely misunderstand me. I don't view the world with pessimistic dread. Though this piece is very dark by nature, I have left out the other side of the story. it was intentional, because I believe the message more powerful this way. Because of those very demons, people are drawn to anger like moths to a flame.
I firmly believe in most people's ability to constrain the demon inside them. The average person has no desire to be hateful. It is painful and unattractive. And though we are drawn to evil, we yearn for beauty. It is that balance that allows us to continue. It allows us a little more time to search for the answers to our self-imposed inadequacies. When the day comes, (and I hope it will soon,) that we can be free from our demons, then at last, will we discover the true meaning of peace.

...to cut through all excuses,justifications, digressions, defenses, and meet the condition on its darkest terms. If we fail to do this, than any conclusion reached would be betrayed from birth... by the inadequacy of our rectitude or comprehension.
-Stephen Donaldson-

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It's so cool, it's so swell, living here on Ice Planet hell!
-Psychotica-



[This message has been edited by Christopher (edited 08-16-99).]

Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704

3 posted 1999-08-16 09:42 PM


Thanks for the detailed response to my detailed response! I do agree with you to quite an extent - the baMbuti certainly have outlets for their natural aggression - like hunting. Yet what I find interesting about them, is that when there is a dispute between two or more people, it is seen as affecting the whole tribe; their entire community. (which I would put into italics, but I don't know how to!) Therefore - everybody's feelings are taken into account, over two or three people's actions. There are no chiefs either - the forest itself is their God - yet as it gives to them, so they give back to it. Are you familiar with the 'molimo' ceremony? Truly beautiful. Anyway, essentially everyone is equal, and their rages are channeled - everyone is required to think carefully about their actions - for the survival of the tribe. Not like in our society which is so incredibly stratified and in which we only interact on minor levels. I see what you mean about children, and I would add to that with a slightly different outlook: The socialisation of children (if you're familiar with sociology you'll know what I'm talking about), where they are taught norms and values from an incredibly young age. We think we are free - to act as we want, to make our choices. We see children as the people who have the most freedom - free from responsibility, on a journey of learning etc, but! I don't think kids are that free at all - err and be punished. How do we learn not what to do? Through fear. So when little boys (and girls - I was pretty fiesty as a child. Emotionally traumatised, I threw heaps of tantrums!) are lashing out - they're still doing it within the confines of their own society's rules. It's like the id and super ego. (Freud was a sexist pratt, but still....) The id (the impulsive child who wants wants wants) gets beaten into shape by the super ego (which learns behaviour appropriate for its society) and any adult who emerges into society with anger or violence predominating its behaviour is considered a deviant! So yes, civilisation does teach us to restrain our 'natural' demons. Which is a paradox, really, cause I think by labelling aggression or whatever as a demon, the control over it is removed. I'm not sure that the natural fury you support is not merely a reaction to the enforced requirement of having to surrender our egocentric wants to the greater good of what looks like an uncaring society. (Phew - that was a mouthful!) And this surrending leads to the norm many a child is taught in this society when one doesn't get what one wants - reacting in anger, fury, violence. I'm not just talking about tangible wants either; but love, personal self esteem, emotional safety.
I do share your concerns about the rise of violence - it is an increasing epidemic. The essential thing, I feel, is education - and a provision for these demons to be let out safely - or laid to rest, as I think they can be. Yet, this population makes it so much harder to provide for everyone - in these H/G societies there are manageable amounts of people! Can I ask - are you of a Christian persuasion? Is that the peace you speak of? I searched for it, and am in the delicate position of viewing God as a reality, but not liking Him very much.

Christopher
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Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296
Purgatorial Incarceration
4 posted 1999-08-17 12:37 PM


Well Severn, you did say quite a mouthful! And I find that I think our viewpoints aren't so much different, as differently stated.
(First, let me say that I had to look up your profile. And I found to my relief that you weren't from 'round here! (USA) It put me at ease to see that, because I was wondering how you were managing to elaborate so eloquently, while making so many spelling errors! To my great joy, I realized that it was only our differing educational backgrounds that caused you to spell something with an "s" where I would have used a "z!" eg: socialised- you / socialized- me!)
Also, to start italicizing use the "[" then type "i" then close it with "]" to end italicization "[" "/" "i" then finally "]" this also works with bolding the letters!


I noticed you split the concepts of stratified, and socialization. However, what if you consider them together, forming one concept? Socialized Stratification It follows along with your statement regarding children's lack of freedom, on which I completely agree! Aside from the fact that many are born unwanted, into a cruel, uncaring and pitiless world, there is the fact that even children are tainted from birth. We pass our genes along, and with it our guilt. This guilt forms the child, even as their viewpoints begin to mature. But where once there was, (as you have mentioned re: the baMbuti,) a sense of community, there is now a pallid void of uncertainty and distrust. Where once a person could air their grievances openly and expect to seek justice, now there is fear that while airing your grievance, the offender will pull a gun out and end your life.
What trust is there in that? And this is one of many. What about the fact that over 75% of the lawsuits in America are considered frivolous. (take as an example, the case of the burglar -vs- the homeowner. This thief entered a man's home in the middle of the night with the intent to steal from him. In the course of his prowling, he stumbled, broke his leg, and of course was caught. When the case went to trial, the burglar was sentanced to prison for however many years. Now that sounds about right, correct? But this isn't the end of the story. The burglar, now in prison, decides to take the homeowner to court. His case proposed that the homeowner was liable for his injury, and that he(the burglar) deserved recompense because he was no longer able to "continue with his chosen profession." Now aside from the fact that such a case should have been met with derisive laughter and tossed away, what angers me the most is that the burglar WON the case! That it was later overturned is beside the point. The point is, that it was allowed and won once!) So what does that say about trust?
Stratification indeed. So what of these children (fiesty or not !) who learn the values you mention? Is not one of them trust? Of course, we are taught to trust our parents, our teachers, the law...etc. But how can one, especially a child, grasp a concept, when it is twisted and perverted before their very eyes at the same moment it is being taught? And is trust actually valid? Who are those that betray us the most? Those we trust. Most molestations are perpetrated by members close to the family, and TRUSTED! Perhaps fear is the manner in which children are taught, but I don't believe it is necessarily an overt fear. Rather, it is a subsumed thing, hidden in between layers of interpretation.
Interpratation, which leads me to another point (sorry I ramble so much, I do have a tendancy to wander once I get going!) What is the single most thing that children are left to interpret in the average household? Yep, television. And I don't know what it is like over there, but the television programs over here are a blood-bath of murder, deception, betrayal, rape, mono-maniacism, infedelity... I could go on and on. And when viewed for entertainment purposes, I think that even these things can be therapuetic. They allow a release for our "demons"
However, children do not have the capacity to view it as such. Instead, the view it as everything else in their limited experiance, as more input! I have seen young boys almost beat each other senseless after watching a violent movie. They are re-enacting something which is glorified, and indistinguishable from real life to them. It is them training their demons, allowing their passions to be built up. But is there a problem with most children (we're talking relatively young kids here) with unusual violence? No, because in their re-enactment, they are keeping control of their demons, by allowing them limited reign.
Now, you may have noticed, this is a closed loop. We build our demons, even as we restrain them, yet when we seek to control them, we can barely restrain them... (shrug)
Therefore the problem I think. Is it hopeless? Certainly not! I know personally, that I have control over my demon, and have no wish to set him free. But I, as many others, have found a release ( a relief valve if you will) for my demon. I let off steam by writing and drawing. It is my therapy. In this manner, I constrain that which could otherwise be free. Is it the same with you? Perhaps not. Perhaps, you have never recognized your own demon. But I guarentee it is there. It is in the gleam of your eye when you are offended, it is in the tone of your voice when you snap at someone angrily. And first and foremost, it is in your dreams at night, the ones you don't remember, because you are too afraid to.


In answer to your question, no I am not of the Christian faith, though I hold many of its tenants to be true, and practice what some might consider a Christian life. But as with you, should there be a god, I would be most angry with him, and would not think him above reproach. That someone/thing/whatever, could so callously allow the things that happen to their very own creation is by far the worst betrayal. It comes back to trust, which has not been vindicated. Believe... I don't know that I even believe in a higher power. But I assure you, if there were, there would be no commiseration between him/her/it and I. This doesn't mean that I hold it against any one, or denigrate their beliefs in any way. It is simply my own answer!


Thank you for sharing time with me, I have been looking forward to hearing your response!

Chris

------------------
It's so cool, it's so swell, living here on Ice Planet hell!
-Psychotica-



[This message has been edited by Christopher (edited 08-17-99).]

Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704

5 posted 1999-08-17 10:23 PM


no surprises - it's me! I can't stay long (running for lectures etc), but never fear, I will return - I have a hundred more confounding things to say!!!! By the way - how on earth can you guys not put a 'u' in colour?!!! And as for those 'z''s - they're just not as nice sounding as an s. I'll be back to continue this as soon as I can.
Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296
Purgatorial Incarceration
6 posted 1999-08-17 10:37 PM


How uncivili-

Z

-ed!

J/k... I look forward to your next responce with breathless anticipation!

------------------
It's so cool, it's so swell, living here on Ice Planet hell!
-Psychotica-



[This message has been edited by Christopher (edited 08-17-99).]

Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704

7 posted 1999-08-18 02:25 AM


I'm outta time for a lengthy chat! So, in the meantime - try to keep breathing - how terribly flattering. Breathless anticipation - I'll never get out the door with this big head. I will most likely be a couple of days, due to an evil essay. Never fear, my wondrous wit (snort) is soon to be near. Keep ing.
(And you philistines are the uncivilissssssed ones, thank you!)

DreamEvil
Member Elite
since 1999-06-22
Posts 2396

8 posted 1999-08-18 03:36 AM


LOLOL

I simply LOVE an intense philosophical debate. You both have given me a rare treat.
Christopher, sheer curiosity here. Have you read any of H.P Lovecraft's work? Remarkable similarities between your piece of philosophy and my own, point to a Lovecratian influence.

He is not dead, but dreaming.

------------------
Shall I indulge in flights of fancy hampered by clipped wings?
DreamEvil©



Christopher
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Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296
Purgatorial Incarceration
9 posted 1999-08-18 04:22 AM


Can't say that I have DE. The name sounds familiar though. Maybe I'll go check out some of his/her books. Do you have any that you would suggest?
A lot of my philoshopy stems from a diverse mixture of backgrounds. I have included works such as the Bible, The Five Rings, Atlas Shrugged, Dianetics, etc, also along with less directed books, such as those by Stephen R. Donaldson, and John Barnes. I find that a lot of time you can find golden nuggets hidden among the myths and monsters of science fiction and fantasy!

------------------
Sanity is the playground for the unimaginative.


Artur Hawkwing
Member
since 1999-06-30
Posts 444
USA
10 posted 1999-08-18 04:35 AM


ROFL (and ouch). This is INTENSE as reported by DreamEvil ... I'd just as soon not have stepped into a discussion going so smoothly. ~raises eyebrows~ Could you two teach me a thing or two about debating, and how you pulled this off? Did you do outlining, or did you do it all mentally? I can not see how you both pull this off, I just can't..... might as well take me a year or two to do it as well as you both, or never, all depending on how hard I work for my English teacher. :-) She's great I heard but she's got some interior demons.

*abandon the questions if this intrudes with your debate. I want to ruin nothing. It is natural curiosity that motivated me in the first place. Not evil, although vile impulses can come in handy at times!*

DreamEvil
Member Elite
since 1999-06-22
Posts 2396

11 posted 1999-08-18 10:39 AM


Christopher,
Both the First and Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever are favorites of mine!

Lovecraft put out several books including his Necronomicon. There are a few movies out there as well, including From Beyond and Reanimator.

------------------
Shall I indulge in flights of fancy hampered by clipped wings?
DreamEvil©



Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704

12 posted 1999-08-18 07:43 PM


I have returned! (gives evil laugh)

let the 'U's and 'S's commence!

Hmmmm, children tainted from birth. This sounds very Judaeo Christian based - the 7 generation sin concept: We are all born into inescapable sin which only the blood of Christ can erase. Yet, given your previous assertation that you are not Christian I take it you see it as resulting from a different reason. In believing this, you must, therefore, have some spiritual stance on why we are born guilty. Can you really believe that genes are rife with guilt? Guilt is a moral concept - one equated with the ten commandments, from which this now largely secular society still derives much of its moral foundations. Genes are a scientific concept. I fail to see how the two combine. Guilt requires something to be guilty for. Of what is a new born child guilty? I think that in our new born state (up to the time we cease mere survival functions and start observing the world around us) we are innocent, white as snow. Inherent guilt is not a viable option and actually removes accountability for our actions. Like the Christian precept - fall to your knees and repent and all will be forgiven. Even that scumbag Hitler could have repented at the last minute and been forgiven - tell that to the Jews who didn't believe in the messiah and as a consequence are theoretically in hell now - put there early, due to Hitler. So your idea, with respect, seems inherently paradoxical.

Your account of the burglar is horrendous. Our justice system - the world over, seems pretty much of a joke - on that I completely agree! Over here, in this comparatively tiny country of 3.3 million(approx) people we don't even have adequate prison facilities! In fact, some 15-16 year olds on remand are sent to the adult prison to sleep, here in Auckland. It's charming having a great big stone monstrosity of a prison in the middle of your city. Escapees are relatively frequent. Where is our security? Yet, it's easy to see why crime for monetary purposes is rampant. High unemployment, higher education only for the wealthy elite or very determined (ie me!), a social welfare system, that while better than some others - I hear your system is quite appalling - still fails the majority of the people who need it. At the moment, we have a few little problems with computer systems - beneficiaries are receiving notices for traffic fines they didn't commit. Money is being removed from their accounts without their knowledge - they go to do food shopping and lo and behold! they can't pay. They are being brutalised by smug people behind their little official desks and what is being done? Squat. Should the police be called? Well - if their multi-million (at the tax payers expense) computer system hadn't just collapsed, rendering their already inefficient system even more inefficient, perhaps it would be a good idea! Provided of course we even had enough police officers to answer the phones! (We've had a couple of appalling incidents where people have died due to the response time of a 111 (911) call being, oh, 1 hour!!!!!) We even had a member of a prominent nasty gang say on national TV that the police are no match for them - and the sad thing is it's true. The police are too busy, searching out marijuana plots in the deep bush, too care. So, not only is crime profitable, but relatively easy to get away with. Sigh. I could go on and on - caught me on a passionate topic
Oh - TV is much the same here. Violent rubbish. Sad, cynical policeofficers shooting brash 'demon' swarthed crims. (American shows, primarily...) I don't think TV violence for therapeutic reasons is at all possible, dear. Sorry. In fact, I think that as little children we are so shocked by it, we deny its full import on our lives and by the time we are adults, are so desensitised (hehe: no 'Z's) to it that we can't recogniZZe its horror on a conscious level, but internalize it, moulding it to our value system.

As a result of all of this it's easy to see why trust (hope that worked), is a failing concept - but not due to anything inherent!!!!! There we were, those beautiful children we once were and we opened our eyes and had to look upon the face of this world we live in. What a jolt. Except it didn't happen immediately - gradual little earthquakes to the roots of our beings, and now, we are embittered. Apply that to the street kids so rampant in America (small population of them here) and it's no wonder at all that trust is a sneer on the lips of so many.

Of course trust is valid. It's just fragile; and we are beings who sure know how to hold a grudge!

Yes, fear is masked by concern. 'If you touch that hot flame you'll burn yourself darling'
And the subtle promise of recrimination. "If
you don't do well in school, you won't go to university (and then we will love you less...)'

My demons - I have them and I acknowledge them utterly. My mother, when I was that innocent new born, put me up for adoption but changed her mind. My subsequent childhood (though I love her dearly) was not overly pleasant, so I wonder - if I had gone to another family would my demons be the same?
Do you think my 'inherent' demons have shaped my life?

Right then. Chew on that. !
I haven't even had breakfast yet - it's now 11.30am and my essay is still waiting - this is too compelling.

(Thanks DE, glad to entertain. I'm ashamed to admit, but I've never heard of any of those authors.)

(Dear Artur, You may hate this, but I just sit down in front of the screen and type - the words just flow out. I barely stop to think, maybe just add a few thoughts when I re-read. I've never done debating. Oh - what does ROFL mean? I'm new to internet lingo. Thanks for taking an interest, dear friend!)

Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296
Purgatorial Incarceration
13 posted 1999-08-18 10:56 PM


Hey, I'm the busy one now, gotta run, but I should be back in tomorrow. A quick note, Artur, I don't mind another voice, as long as Severn doesn't (though with her, you'll have to keep on your toes!)
and DE, thanks, I'll try to find some of tose books. It's interesting to find someone else who's read Donaldson, not many that I know have!

------------------
Sanity is the playground for the unimaginative.


Artur Hawkwing
Member
since 1999-06-30
Posts 444
USA
14 posted 1999-08-19 09:45 PM


It stands for Rolling on the Floor Laughing.

I'm out of here because I have a terrible case of the willies from reading this scholarly dispute... I am envious that my mind is not prepared to join quite a debate yet. I hope I can have a say in the future. There are too many good philosophers. Now, see you.-- oh one more thing. Severn, keep in touch!

[This message has been edited by Artur Hawkwing (edited 08-19-99).]

Christopher
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Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296
Purgatorial Incarceration
15 posted 1999-08-19 11:51 PM


Hey, I'm back. I still don't have too long, but like you, I CAN'T HELP MYSELF!!!
(Artur- sorry, me too. I just sit down and write off the top of my head, though I admit, sometimes it gets me in trouble, by not really thinking things through. FYI, I have never gone to college. It's not that I think higher education is bad, it's just that personally, I think it stultifies free-thinking, a trait which I value above all else! For myself, I chose to continue my education through personal studies, reading, talking to those who know, etc. So do be daunted! Just say what you believe. In philosophy, there's really no right or wrong, as long as you think things through, and can show why you arrive at the conclusions that you state!)

Ok Severn, here we go again
The Blood of Christ: is a purely (in my opinion) manmade attempt to justify his life. It is the easy way out for those that believe in their own guilt. It is a method by which one can do whatever they chose, knowing/ believing that in the end, a requested forgiveness will absolve all blame, thereby relegating them to eternal bliss. BS! This depredation of responsibility, is one of the reasons I choose not to believe/be involved with any form of Christianity. You are responsible for what you do! Period. There is no way around it. It doesn't matter if you were abused, neglected, mistreated, poor, hungry, lusty...it doesn't matter. The fact is that it is you who makes the choices. (Needless to say, this excludes those with mental impairments such as Down Syndrome, or others of like, and also children, until they reach the stage of full contemplative reasoning, when they are capable of discerning their own value system.)
Guilt:(I was not saying that guilt was derived from our genes, I was only using genes as an analogy..."we pass our genes along, and with it our guilt." I'm sorry if I phrased that poorly and it misled you. I was only saying that we pass our guilt, just as we past our genes, I was not meaning them to be linked together!)
Yes, guilt IS a moral concept. It is something that has to be believed in, to have power. It is also subjective. If I do something that you consider wrong, yet I believe is right, I will feel no guilt. Whereas you doing the same thing would make you feel guilty. However, (isn't there always a however with me???) However, it is no less valid, simply because it is a mental ideal. Within each society, there is a given amount of guilt that is common among its members. It doesn't necessarily transcend that particular society, but within itself, it remains fairly constant. Now onto the subject of newborns, assuming that my short summation of societal guilt is accurate. The newborn themselves do not feel the guilt themselves until later, if at all. It is more of a transferred guilt. What of your own mother? Do you think she felt guilty for considering putting you up for adoption? (I'm glad she didn't!) If so, then you are the reason for that guilt. Not that I'm saying you SHOULD feel guilty. I am only saying, that were she to not have been pregnant with you, then chances are that she would not have carried that guilt with her. Add to that, the amount of unwanted pregnancies (as a side note, Elvira posted something in this section I believe, that quoted the figure at over 1 million teenage pregnancies a year in this country alone!) on top of that, there is the pain involved with labor, the debt owed to parents for bringing you into this world, less money, less time... etc. Even the happiest parents in the world that I know, have some regrets, though they wouldn't trade their experiences with their children for anything! I'm not saying that things should be this way, but the irrevocable truth is that such is the way of life. People live and most define by their guilt, inherent or attained. It is as inescapable as your next breath. And for many, it is the greatest antagonizer of their demons, and using your word, it is paradoxically, the greatest inhibitor. While guilt over something done, feeds the demon, anticipated guilt will often prevent things that otherwise would be done with no problem.
Now this in no way implies that children are not innocent. But it is only a matter of time until they are just the same as we. It may sound obdurate, cynical, but it is the fact of things. I speak here, not of hope, but of life. Facts are facts, no matter how grim they are. Yet facts, like anything else, can be subjective, even though they shouldn't be by definition. Go figure!
I'd be scared to live in your town! Though, I must admit, mine is not much better! I don't know if you heard about the women who were murdered in Yosemite area, but our town was the place where they busted all the tweekers. Spooky. If you drive around my town at night, you can see all the people who are up late, tinkering around their garages, doing drugs in the open...it's sad.
Don't even get me started on welfare. I like in California, what some call the welfare state. If you haven't heard about it consider yourself lucky. We are about the only people who would support family after family for generations while we live in less security and comfort than they do. It is a pathetic sign of the times, when those that are unwilling to aid themselves, receive aid from those in positions worse than their own. Don't misunderstand, I have no problem with helping someone back on their feet. Yet the largest amount of the welfare recipients are populated by people who have no wish or desire to seek employment. Why should they? They have everything they'll ever need without ever having to lift a finger...
AAARRGGGHHH!!!! It makes me soooooooo MAD!

Ok, I'm better now. I cut it short, because that is a whole other topic in and of itself.
I'm glad to see that you recognize your demons. In doing so, you can restrain them and enjoy your life without having the confusion resultant from the unknown.

And yes, I do think your demons shaped your life... in part. Everything, every scent, touch, taste, feeling, thought, sight, shapes your life. What you have experienced is what you are. What you make of what you see is what you are. Who you love is what you are. You are who you are, and anything that contributes in even a minor manner makes you who you are.


Eat your breakfast! And see you soon...

------------------
Sanity is the playground for the unimaginative.


Artur Hawkwing
Member
since 1999-06-30
Posts 444
USA
16 posted 1999-08-20 12:41 PM


My last response would be this. I understood almost everything you put down there, and very very interesting. I admit the same thing quite much - education stifles how the mind works in major ways, I did a research paper on the Ten Worst Things about Education this recent spring. I have noticed a bit of degradation on my free-thinking because I have been relied to follow their line-of-thinking instead of my own, and now this site netpoets should be a cure to at least part of it. One reason why I enjoy listening to your debates so much is because I can see the ideas fly around, and soon if I am lucky enough my mind will reconsider the option it chose, and a freeflowing line of thinking will come in handy again. I can't wait for that day. As much as I hate to admit it, my thoughts seem stiffed up right now and I am trying hard to rid myself of that, so where's the cure? Perhaps here? :-)

I have often considered that the family you live with, the education background, the state in U.S. or country overseas, etc., can greatly impede with how you think. I had the willies from the first time I read this partway for the previous reasons - that such exceptional people can write so well. College education (I would have loved to do it your way!) is nothing I am against, but I do have my own wishes.

Till later...


[This message has been edited by Artur Hawkwing (edited 08-20-99).]

Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704

17 posted 1999-08-22 08:56 PM


Well. Hmmmm. I've been thinking over this for a few days. I have approximately half an hour and I may well need to come back later!!! Once again, I'm going to dispute you: TRUE Christians don't think they can do whatever they want, not at all - it's the rest of the world who thinks that's what Christianity is about. From my experiences with a Baptist church (awful mostly!)- you become a Christian by repenting and are 'forgiven', you recognise your own innate nature which is full of guilt(Inherent from the 7 gener. thing) and its capacity to make mistake after mistake. But, after recognising that you will continue to make mistakes, you JUST TRY REALLY REALLY HARD NOT TO MAKE ANY!!!!!!
Be as pure and nice, like Jesus, as you can. It is impossible for any human to be perfect while on earth because this is the place of sin and inequity. (Dramatic, daunting music in background). Really, it's all God's fault. He bl...y created us, apparently - didn't do a very good job did he!
I'm still trying to figure out what exactly we are being forgiven for. One sin is as bad another - there's no comparison between them, and of course the greatest sin is denying God. It would really be much easier if he'd put in a physical appearance every twenty years or so and boomed out over the world "I AM GOD - FOLLOW ME!!!"
(Chris dear - I have a few tricky questions about God, that keep me awake at night (LITERALLY): Can I share them with you, 'cause I'd like to know what you think?)

Now, as for choice making. I don't think people with downs syndrome are completely exempt. I have a close association with a person with DS - she is quite aware of what she is doing and can be quite manipulative - knowing VERY WELL that she is 'special' and uses this to derive special treatment on occasion. (LOL - another feisty female!)
I have to agree - we are responsible for our choices. FULLSTOP (heheheheh) (What's this 'period' thing anyway - it's weird. A period is a space of time - doesn't suggest a finite end to me...)
But how responsible were we in the beginning? I mean, our parents or caregivers brought us up, we learnt values through them - so doesn't our upbringing have some of the responsibility?
I'm outta time and I will leave you with a horrendous question about guilt. My mother and adoption - Here's some personal info about my little life. My mother developed schizophrenia when I was 7, she married a man (not my father) who abused us, she become an alcoholic also, I left home at 16 to get away. Her schizophrenia has reduced her to a shell of who she was. A few short words to outline many years of pain. Sometimes I wish to GOD ( whoever he is!!) that she had adopted me out.
How guilty should I feel????


Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704

18 posted 1999-08-23 09:59 PM


Hello again, I'm back before you have responded to that question. (heheheheh - I can put people on the spot can't I?) Now, to the second half. I've just read it over and I realise that the whole things ties in with guilt. Guilt. Icky word. If you see guilt as a constant it's rather interesting: Our lives are run by it - the threat of it controls our actions, which means that half our motivations for doing 'good' things are selfish, simply to avoid guilt. Or the complete avoidance of it. Those who don't fear the touch of guilt are free from its effects. But it's still there, and someone else who has been affected by the not-feelin-guilty person's actions expects guilt to be felt! So, our lives are riddled with it, its like a cancerous growth on our insides. (Oh God - I sound like YOU now!)
And where does it come from - FROM OUR VALUE SYSTEMS!Given to us by our parents/caregivers which we internalised.
So yes, it is inescapable. Unless you find some means of avoiding a moral code.

I have to say I kind of agree with the whole education thing. While I am at uni and am reasonably happy to be here (statistically I should have been a drug addict/alcoholic/teen mother/suicide victim etc - so I've done well!)it does stop you from free thinking. The best thing is that my papers have given me a framework for my thoughts - all of my views expressed in this conversation I have always thought - my work at school has just allowed me to clarify them, and refine them.

I committed your crime of phrasing something completely wrong. I didn't mean have my demons shaped my life, but rather has my life shaped my demons - so if I had had different experiences it would follow I would have diff. demons. Therefore, it would seem they are definitely NOT already in existence when we're born, but shaped and grown as we mature.

Facts are subjective: My interpretation of this relates also to experience. If you had been raised and educated solely by a person who told you red was yellow, then that would be a fact to you, within the limits of your own experience.To believe in a fact you have to first comply with the authority who established it as one. So kids being shaped into non-innocents, yep, it's a fact. But, imagine a person so utterly negative that they saw a ray of hope in a person that Joe average considered a Cynical Old Troll. To that person, COT would a positive example of humanity - that would be a FACT, for that person, based on their experience. Nothing can be definite factuality because we all experience differently.

Here's a shocking thing - a man with the mentality of a 5 year old struck out at a caregiver (throwing a mere tantrum in my view, but with the force of a grown man) and may go to prison. Justice? No - a sentence derived merely from a system that doesn't allow for exceptions - only looks at the established FACTS of our society.

UM - what are tweekers?
I share your frustration with the dole. One advantage - every homeless person here is homeless by choice. Our welfare systems can provide for all, and there are ample opportunities for self improvement - just that many don't take them. Sigh.

Ok, I'm going. Having yuck time at uni at the moment - I've been sick and have to arrange conceded passes. Grouch. No one here is particularly understanding. Sigh. This is a good distraction.
Happy thoughts! Rebut me soon.

Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296
Purgatorial Incarceration
19 posted 1999-08-24 10:12 PM


I'm baaaaaaccckkkk!
Sorry it's taken so long, I've been incredibly busy. We've hit three deadlines at work, and it's work all night, then work all day...hmmm, I think they should pay me more!
Anywho, that's another story entirely, so let me get back to the case in point, because as usual, I disagree, and agree with you. (Paradox seems to be rearing its head in here a lot!)
True Christians know that they can do whatever they want, with the promise of eternal bliss afterward. I was raised in a baptist household, and am very conversant with the whole basis, as we were presented it. (I'm not even going to start on Catholisism!) Anyway, yes, they are supposed to avoid doing the "bad" things, striving to be better people, a noble idea. However, don't you think perhaps, that the knowledge of being able to make mistakes, doesn't somehow effect how they act as "Christians?"
And I agree with you, assuming there is a god, he/she should make an appearance on a late night TV show and remind everyone...
(Of course you can share your thoughts with me, and I'll give you my honest opinion on them. If you want to keep it private, you're more than welcome to E-Mail me, I will still respond!)
(Yes, a "period" is a space in time. The "period" placed at the end of a sentance is representative of a pause in time.)
As to the guilt you should feel-
In my personal opinion, I don't think you should feel any guilt at your wishes. I believe that life is tough enough when you're young, without adding any extra burdens to it. But think about this: If you had been adopted out, there is a good possibility, that you would have spent your life wondering what it would have been like to have known/been raised by your real parents. It may also be that you would have felt guilt at wishing you would never had been adopted out. Go figure, you lose, or you lose. Or you just accept your life as it is and make the best of it! (Which is what it seems like you are doing! Good girl!)
Now on to one of my favorite subjects:

GUILT


(By the by, you are starting to sound like me!!! hahahaha --evil laugh--)
Guilt controls everything. However, for guilt to have any power, it must be...believed. Therein lies our hope, as well as our damnation. We choose what to be guilty about. But what if the definition varies from person to person? (Which it most assuredly does!) Then we have people doing things that bother other people. So what do we do about it? We take a concensus of sort, and make a decision on what should be allowed. Therefore, we have laws. But just because we make laws, doesn't mean that people start feeling guilty at things that are illegal. I have known MANY people who in cvarying degrees are law breakers. Yet they feel no remorse. I myself am a lawless rebel! I have a terribly heavy foot, and race down the freeways at bone-crunching speeds. That is illegal. Do I feel any guilt about doing it? Nope, not a smidgen! Yet it is still against the law. Does that mean I am a bad person? Yes, but not for that reason! I guess what I was getting at, is that since I don't believe I should have to go slow, I don't feel any guilt at not doing so.
It has no power over me.
Now, let's take it one step farther, and talk about someone who doesn't believe it should be wrong to kill a black person. Well, then if that person kills a man, a black man, he doesn't fell any guilt over it. To him, it wasn't anything wrong. Does that make him any different from me?
You're probably shaking your head vehemently right now. I don't blame you. I think that something like that (which happens all too often even now) is terrible. Yet, in truth, it's the same thing as what I was doing, or the same thing as stealing, etc. It is breaking a rule that was made by a majority. The absolute only difference here, it of severity. I agree that I look less harshly on someone who steals as opposed to someone who murders or rapes, but that is because of my personal beliefs. But if broken down to the barest point, they are such, because that is what we have been taught.
Now if this person had been taught that it was ok, then does that make him any less right than we?
Scary to think about huh?

Tweekers- slang for habitual methamphetemine users. They are usually skinny, dirty and very nervous in mannerisms. Many will stay awake for multiple days, "high" on drugs. The particular drug of choice around my area here (aside from marijuana) is Crank. It's a derivative of Cocaine.

I hope school's going better, and that they have some pity on you!

Later....Christopher

------------------
Everyone has a photographic memory...
...most of us just don't have film!

Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704

20 posted 1999-08-26 10:13 PM


Hi-ho! It's off to work we go! Who do you think is the best dwarf? Personally, I like Doc. He's very responsible. You'd think funny little men who lived in a forest would be responsible wouldn't you?
Anyway, all craziness (an appropriate 'Z') aside. Ahhhh - Christianity debates, and the best thing about this one - you're not here to interrupt and vv! Last one I had, over the phone, the person hung up on me. Tch Tch - I have a tendency of speaking my mind somewhat forcefully. (grin).
You know, I might just e-mail you. But lets continue to entertain the world shall we with our wonderful minds (HAHA)until DE gets sick of us and closes the thread?!
(Admin stuff (HEHEHEHE)
1 - School is vaguely better. Couldn't sort out conceded pass so sat test. Test P..s easy. Joke easy! HILARIOUSLY EASY. Thanks for caring
2 - OK, I understand the period thing now. Still like the fullstop better though - because I have to defend my language!
3 - there is no 3, I just like listing things.

Right. My response. Catholisism - please get started! One of my FAVOUUUURITE SUBJECTS! Two questions - how the hell does a string of beads get you closer to God? And what does Mary have to do with anything!?! (I have my own theories, what are yours?)
Christians. Some are 'good', some are 'bad'. I myself while at church and following God never quite got the grace thing and continuously felt guilty. Still do. About everything. That's why I NEED God to get his butt down here and help me understand. Until someone presents me with irrevocable proof that He's not real, I will continue to stress over the hell thing. I think the people who can fully accept the concept of grace are more inclined to rely on it and offend God, without worrying too much. I guess accepting that you'll never be perfect can be quite a relief! Hmmm - morals. I can see your point. Once again, murder and the way we feel about does come under our value system doesn't it. We rank the taking of life far above speeding. If you were to kill someone while racing down the motorway (You naughty thing you)you would be a murderer. Now I don't think you are a bad person (just one with heaps of demons ) but imagine the guilt you would feel if you killed someone inadvertantly with that heavy foot of yours. You would then start to feel like a bad person. So while you feel that speeding is only affecting YOU right now, it may afect others in the future. (Including me, if you got carted off to prison and couldn't argue politely with me anymore ). So perhaps we have to think things through and occasionally do things we don't want to, like slowing downto avoid future guilt! This is not intended to be a lecture on your driving skills, I'm sure you're good if you haven't killed anyone yet. Just an example.(smiling sweetly)


I'm going to keep this short because I will e-mail you - possibly next week. I have ANOTHER icky essay due. Tell me. How do I write 1500 words on a 14 line sonnet?!

Farewell from a currently anti-Shakespeare Severn. Talk to you soon. Try not to overwork yourself and don't kill yourself on the freeway! (What is that? Is it 'free' or something. God - you people...!) For no reason other than blue is pretty. Imagine it's smiling.

Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296
Purgatorial Incarceration
21 posted 1999-08-27 02:47 AM


Well! I can tell someone was in a fiesty mood today!
I have a feeling DE won't close us down too soon, I think he's sitting at his desk laughing at us while we turn red in the face (figuratively) arguing each other to oblivion!
Anyway, how to write 1,500 words on a 14 line sonnet: Write the sonnet over and over 107.1428571 times! (I guess the decimal points will mean you only have to write the last one partway!) I know I'm not much help, but my strong suit has never been assignments. I can bust out approximately 2,500 words a night, (three hours,) in my book, but if you were to tell me what to write, I'd be lucky to get 10 words out!
As far as that person hanging up on you... screw them! I see an arguement as being different from fighting. When you argue, it's more like a debate. There are differing opinions, and you're discussing, or arguing, over which one is correct. When you're fighting, you're in a bad mood and not thinking sensibly.... I think!
Blue is my favorite/favourite color/colour!
I don't have time right now to get into the catholic system, but so far I agree, (gags me to say it,) with what you've said. Maybe I can get into it more, next time I post.
As far as my eventual guilt should I hurt someone, or kill them, you are right. It probably would make me feel like a bad person. But the point I had been making was that the people who do most of the "bad" things, at least at the time, don't consider themselves bad. Even serial murderers and violent rapists see themselves in the right. (There is a huge exception to this rule which I will try to address next time!)
Gotta go, have a GREEEEEAAATTT weekend, don't study too hard!

Christopher


------------------
I believe in the sand beneath my toes.
The beach gives a feeling, an earthly feeling.
I believe in the faith that grows.
-Stephan Jenkins-

WhtDove
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-22
Posts 9245
Illinois
22 posted 1999-08-27 10:38 AM


This was very moving, and well done! There's a lot of truth to the words you state. I won't go into a long speel. I will just say I agree with you. Man has a way of messing things up.

[This message has been edited by WhtDove (edited 08-27-99).]

Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704

23 posted 1999-08-29 10:10 PM


Chris - I was in a crazy mood! I'll talk to you soon via the e-mail thingy whatsit.

White Dove - Hi! I'm surprised you had the time and patience to read our little saga! You're most welcome to go into a long speil!

snacks
Junior Member
since 1999-08-21
Posts 35
NJ
24 posted 1999-09-05 06:13 AM


This debate has gotten quite tangental! I have to say I fall on the side of inherent goodness. But in general we have placed our self in a destructive cycle. By the time our children enter our "systems" we have an uphill battle. I would be curious to know if either of you (on the primary debate team) have children! For me (I have 3)this experience has changed my views. There is no way those little "blank slates" we call babies have little "demons" hiding in them. I used to believe in the power of parenting (and due to my history that parents are always at fault). Now I live in a new perspective. I see how much society really can creep into a child's mind..despite parenting. Maybe it is my way of removing responsibilty from myself..but I really like to deny that . My children have friends with a very catholic mother (don't get ME started). This in itelf means nothing. However, last year sometime some "grand puba"
(flinstone reference) in the church called Dinsney the "devil" (the Company, not the man)This is due to the fact that the Co. has a gay pride day or something. So, these children (6 and 7 years old) are not allowed to watch disney movies and when my kids mentioned and upcoming trip to Disney World the kids said "Disney is really bad and evil". I have to explain this to my children.
Overall, though, we live in a catch 22 world of people who are cynical about all the "bad" people who bring down the morals of society. It always amazes me how these tend to be the same people who complain about us having to support everyone who screws up. There are always some bad..in every group, in every family, but there are also always many good. The catch 22 speaks for itself. How can we, as a society, be strong and secure in morality when we, as a "people", will not accept any responsibilty for those who have been dealt a far less fortunate hand? ....Christine

------------------
God is seen always in a child's eyes

Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296
Purgatorial Incarceration
25 posted 1999-09-05 07:36 AM


Whew, I was getting worried there for a moment that everyone had forgotten about guilt, then up steps contestant number three!
All joking aside Christine, glad you could join us. I am always interested to hear the viewpoints of other people, and I appreciate that you appear to have put some thought into this.
Where to start....
I guess I can answer your question: No, I do not have any children, nor am I in the "market" to have children any time soon. It's not necessarily that I don't care for children, rather that I prefer other people's children. Both my younger brothers have blessed me with a child from each side. One, my nephew, is only now becoming aware of the world around him. And the other, my niece, refers to me as "mean ol' poopy uncle Chris." I keep on hoping it's a term of affection!
And I agree/disagree with you when you say that you can't believe that there are demons lurking inside babies. When I say that there are, I am speaking of the potential in everyone for what we term as "evil." Granted, as you say, there are many "good" people out there. And in truth, the "good" outweigh the "bad."
But, I ask you this: Out of all those "good" people, can you honestly tell me that you believe they have never done any wrong? Can you tell me that they don't have to reign in their demons, or listen to the voices in their heads warning them of possible guilt? Can you tell me that in their heart, they don't secretly want to do something "bad" every once in a while?
I doubt that you can honestly answer yes to any of these questions. And this is the manner of which I speak when I refer to demons. I say only that we have them, and that increasingly, more and more people are allowing them to be loosed. I am not in any way implying that all people do, or that by having them people are bad. I am merely stating the fact that they exist, call them demons, call them impulses, call them what you will.
And when a child is born, somewhere inside them lies a demon, small and untainted just as they. But as the child grows, so does the demon. And with the influx of societal pressures "creeping into a child's mind," (I quoted that because I liked the way you stated it. It is an apt summation of the process that occurs over time, not an instantaneous event, rather a slow process not unlike a "creeping" disease.) Anyway, with that influx, the demon becomes more and more difficult to control. About this point, is what we call the teenage years. While there are many cases contrary, as a general rule, this is a time of unrest and rebellion. It is a time when the teen must face their demons, and fit it within the developing framework of who they are as a person. I believe that this is a very pivotal time for what is to be the teen's future, and how they are to deal with it.
Then you cross over into the following years and you see the results of the teen's battle within himself/herself. Most of the time, you are correct, they are successful in restraining their demons, and live out "good," if not pious lives. And, as you also said, there is always a few in the bunch that would spoil it for others, so to speak.
But have you noticed that these "few" are increasing in numbers as time goes by?
And as to the "catch 22," I agree completely. Ironic isn't it, how we can damn with one breath, and preach with the next. The "there's nothing I can do about it" syndrome is perhaps one of the most insidious forms of our demons, that lies underneath a veil of righteousness. In one shot, it both acknowledges the problem and absolves the speaker of any responsibility for it. In my opinion, it is a cowards way out. At the least, if you choose, (and it is a choice,) to do nothing about it, then you have no right to bitch about it.
And just in case you're about to call me a hypocrite, because earlier I was raging about the welfare system, I'll add this: I disagree with the current form of welfare in my state/country. However, I also vote for or against respectively, regarding any issues that come up. In this way, I have my effect, (though it is small,) on the outcome of the subject. Also, by choice, I contribute to certain charities. And I always contribute to those on the home front. It is not that I believe the starving children in (Africa, Uganda, Lithuania, you name it,) are less deserving, or less needy. It is simply because I believe we must fix our own problems before we tackle those of others. And too, I will every once in a while buy a meal for a homeless person. (Which by the way is not always easy. Most of them want money, and are indignant when offered a meal. But I refuse to give them money, based on the fact that there are a good deal of charlatans out there, who pass themselves off as transients to make a living. And also, I would rather know for sure that my money went toward a meal, rather than a bottle or a fix.)


Well, that about sums it up for now, I hope I responded to all your issues, aas well as bringing up a few more. I hope you see this as what it is, nothing more than a sharing of views. I wouldn't want to offend you just yet!

And as to you Severn, you better get back in here quick.... I'm suffering withdrawals, and my demons are getting restless!

Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704

26 posted 1999-09-07 08:55 PM


OKAY! I have returned from my long sojourn into...not arguing with CHRIS!! (And now, snacks) Calm your demons, Chris and let me give them some food for thought!

I admit, I'm a bit lost now. Where to start. Religion, guilt or children. HMMM.

Ok - children. No, I don't have any. I'll be totally honest here - I'm not sure I want any. For a few reasons.
1 When I look around this world I'm not sure I want to bring anymore people into it. I still remember the period of time when I began to realise that the world was a hard, harsh place. Horrid! Can we, really, justify exposing innocent (? dispute that Chris) children to the horror that is primarily on this planet? Yes, it is a cynical view, but it is my view.

2 Population. It's spinning way out of control. And that's not just confined to third world countries either. People are having kids not because of a survivalist need anymore, but because it's a social expectation that we form 'perfect' little families with a brood of progeny to coddle over, raise into good citizens, and then look after us in old age. YUK. I don't like conforming particularly (although, aadmittedly, I have a need for security and I have been taught through my value system that a family is the way to get it, so occasionally I desire the full package!)
Too many people = cramped icky world.

3 And, primarily I think, at this time I am just too selfish too have them. I want to live life for me. I have too many things to do and not enough hours in the minute to do them!! I don't want to be an absentee mother, so until I am ready to commit to kids I just won't go there. I also don't like the idea of pregancy itself. In truth, I think I'd adopt a child that was already stuck on this planet to give it a loving home (when I could provide that, of course)
Don't get me wrong - I love children, just don't want any of my own right now!!!

snacks - There are many catch 22's in this society. Stemming from greed and selfishness. My personal favoUrite is the jobforce one: Employers want people with experience, so where does a person go to get it!!!!??

Chris - This inherent evil thing that so consumes you. Is the potential for evil actually IN every child at birth OR is it inserted over time through the garnering of values? I still maintain that children are innocent at birth. COMPLETELY. No potential for evil, no potential for anything but crying, eating and well...the other thing babies are good at. All things after are LEARNED! (DE - if you read this, I would really like your opinion) So, Uncle Poopy, what say you? As for this 'have good people done bad things' well - what's your standard of good and bad? Who defines it? Another catch 22. HEHEH, Mr Freeway Driver. Are you a good person doing bad things? In another place, such as Germany on a certain piece of motorway, if you drove fast you wouldn't be considered bad at all. It is, like beauty, all in the eye of the beholder! (Blondes aside... )
I don't have any contact with homeless people - we don't have many here - at least visible. My image of homeless people in America is of old people wearing rags, hiding down steamy streets (thankyou NYPD BLUE et al) or young druggies. How accurate is that? I suppose a meal is a good thing. How the hell does your government justify it? OH NO! Not politics!

OK - a question. Do you think that the 'teenage years' are the years which consolidate all of our demons, so that they become an irrevocable part of our lives? Actually, for that matter, do you believe you can lay your demons to rest or merely quell them?
My opinion later!!
Going now. Prepare your words and your wit!!

(PS - I agree (yes, gasp, I AGREE!) with your philosophy on 'there's nothing I can do about it' - some of the reason I am getting my brainwashing little degree is so I can do international aid work. Apathy is as big a killer as violence)

Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704

27 posted 1999-09-12 04:33 AM


OI! I'm waiting...... MY demons are baying for blood.
Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296
Purgatorial Incarceration
28 posted 1999-09-13 01:33 AM


I'm working on it dear, honest. But Chronos keeps a rigid fist wrapped around my schedule, and he has yet to allow me the time to respond! Hopefully soon!
Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296
Purgatorial Incarceration
29 posted 1999-09-14 02:47 AM


Inherent evil.
Inherent evil.
Inherent evil.
Inherent evil.
Inherent evil.

YES!!!



I do believe evil is inherent, just by being born. The only true innocent soul, is one yet to be concieved. Once the conception occurs, and a life is sparked, (barring miscellaneous definitions of when a fetus is actually a person,) then the seed of evil is planted.
Tendrils of hate, anger, maliciousness, and any other "bad" quiality you wish to ascribe are latched firmly on the heart of any person.

But..butbutbutbutbutbut, I think you're missing my point.
I'm not saying that this evil is something that will or has to be, acted upon. I am only saying that the capability exists. And yes, even in those innocent, (I disputed, so whatcha gonna do!) little bundles of wrinkled pink flesh and soft bone.
For an example, make sure you read Dream Evil's "Basic Nature Of Man." It is reposted and revised from the "earlier" version, and contains a a reference to an actual incident that supports my belief.
Either way, I know there is no way you can deny that evil exists.
So, now that we have spent so much time extemporzing on the problem...what's the solution?
Is there a solution?
Or are we destined to be eaten away from the inside by our demons, until at the end, like I said originally, we are destroyed?
If not, then how are we to avoid it?
What steps can we take?


Severn... I am a bad person, doing bad things, occasionally slipping, and doing good things!

But, I agree, it's all a matter of perspective.

I wish I could remember the name of the tribe, so you could look it up, but I'll tell you what I remember anyway, though I can't support it with hard references.

The tribe...say in the middle of the rainforest or something, does something that we, (as "civiliZZZZed" peoples) think is evil. On the night of her wedding (tribe style) the new bride goes home, not with her husband, but rather with her family. All fine and good right? But here's why she goes home with her family: To be de-virginized by her FATHER! Yep, in their tribe, they consider it "bad courtesy" to force the new husband to teach his new wife the mechanics f lovemaking. So the responsibility falls to the brides father. In one fell swoop, they break our "rules" by commiting incest and infedelity.

Here's the question: Are they evil?
By our definitions, yes.
By theirs, no.
Who is right?
We, because we are the "civilized ones?"
Or them, because they are fallowing the traditions of countless years?

Chew in that one for a minute.
It's like anything else, evil is usually not evil by its own admission. What each individual considers right or wrong is the correct way, from their viewpoint. So, does that mean we have an impasse? Or does it mean we have to unify, merging all societies into one, squashing the beliefs and traditions of others?

Don't see that happening any time soon!


Justification.

What justification?
You mean the silly banter of apologies and promises hidden beneath the drone of bureaucratic BS?
I don't know as to how justification really comes into it. The tactic employed is usually that of diversion. If a topic begins to heat up, focus on something else, until the heat dies down. That way, no one has to justify anything. Add to that, who wants to deal with hoomeless people?
Most of the people that have the greatest effect on our system are those that are snug and secure in their wn little niche, uneffected and uncaring of the "average joe" or the homeless people. And, the power that belongs to the normal people (IE: middle class, of which comprises most of the population here, though most of those are bordering on poverty,) is one that is not used. I don;t know the figures, but I do know that a large, very large portion of people here choose not to vote, thereby nullyfying any affect they might have on our society.


So that is that...
(and you leave blonds out of this!)

Chris

Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704

30 posted 1999-09-19 11:46 PM


Well, Chris. It looks as though our demons have been let loose all over the forums! Retaliation is needed - especially against that secretly sappy DreamEvil!
Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296
Purgatorial Incarceration
31 posted 1999-09-21 03:33 PM


Alas, but this newfound feeling of hope has sent my demons away, and left me empty inside...
save for you.

Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704

32 posted 1999-09-22 02:19 AM


People are going to start being ill if we carry on like this!
We have to start a fight!!!
More smiles than you possibly know what to do with.

Michael
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-13
Posts 7666
California
33 posted 1999-09-22 03:34 AM


Christopher,
I found this an extremely well written piece. Quite thought provoking, indeed.



------------------
Michael Anderson


And so, being young and dipt in folly
I fell in love with melancholy,
But dreams - of those who dream as I,
Aspiringly, are damned, and die:


EAP


Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296
Purgatorial Incarceration
34 posted 1999-09-22 09:54 PM


Thank you very much Michael, from you that means much!
And I do agree, it did provoke quite some thought, (as well as a beautiful relationship!)
I ask no more from my words than to make one think.

Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704

35 posted 1999-10-07 11:14 PM


You didn't think I'd really forget about this did you?!

Right - essay is done, have some time. I'm here to kick your butt! hehehe

You contradicted yourself - in your first sentences. In your opinion is evil present when the child is conceived or born? Two different things. I know you stated 'in one yet to be conceived' so dear, are you admitting to spirituality at all? If evil were present in a child who was yet to be born - then fine, that's scientific. If before it was conceived then you're admitting to the presence of a life before it has a body. Also the fact that you are including evil as a separate entity that enters someone (at whatever point you want to pick) removes from it any possibility that evil is defined by one's actions and IS actually a thing unto itself.
Does that mean then that there is a 'good' force out there too? Something other than ourselves perhaps? Something like GOD? (Argh - there's that nasty G word...)

I just don't see how you can equate evil as 'entering' someone if you don't believe in a supernatural. 'Little motes of dust' which disappear into nothing when we die DOES NOT equate with an evil that excepts no one.
(Sticking out tongue and saying 'answer that then...')

Also, if evil were a force unto itself I would think it might have a little more influence - in regards to your stance that not everyone succumbs to it, but everyone has the potential to.

( I must say, the way you wrote 'wrinkled pink flesh' and 'soft bone' sounds a little ominous........ )

No, I can't deny evil exists - of course not! No need to tell you to look out your door. But, what I'm interested in is its origins.
BUT I CAN'T MAINTAIN IT'S INHERENT YET! If I did that - that would be admitting to myself, quite irrevocably, that God is real - and that's a scary thought!

As for your tribal example. Interesting. Once again, I wonder WHO defines morality? All of our moral precepts stem from the bible and therefore much of 'our' thinking. Given that the 'our' is the peoples of the Western world and up until recently it was quite acceptable to consider other cultures as 'primitive' it's hardly surprising we apply our own definitions of sanctimonious morality onto other cultures. Kinship ties form the backbone of most cultures and all have surprisingly different structures. I can see the wisdom in that way of life actually. To many, the notion of incest is so firmly inground (like a toenail) that they couldn't possibly accept this, and that is understandable too - once again the socialiZZZZation (I can make concessions too...) process scores another point.
There are two stances I would take with this.
Either there is a God and his biblical precepts are correct so they are in fact 'sinning'. Or there is no moral code, no one other than ourselves to be accountable to, so anything goes. Sigh. Who knows really?
I'd prefer the latter.

Justification.
Don't you just love governments?
This is our election year. All of our options suck really. Lots of false promises made only to lure in the voter. YAY. I have to go with the one most kind to students, but probably nothing will change. And someone else, like the previous government, will get the blame when those changes don't occur! Yes, I guess that as long as they have their cozy (look - a zed. Or should I say zzzzzzzzzzzzzz) little houses to go home to after blabbering their claptrap in their offices, they don't need to care too much about the 'real' people - the 99% of the population they're supposed to look after. After all - who can touch them?
Yet another consequence of capitalism...

Well. There you are. How are you going to exticate yourself from my challenge....?
I'm waiting with bated breath.

K

Alain DeLaCendres
Member
since 1999-07-02
Posts 119
Ohio
36 posted 1999-10-08 12:48 PM


Another classic. Such wonderful display of opinions we have here.

------------------
Tout s'en va, tout passe, l'eau coule, et le couer oublie.

Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296
Purgatorial Incarceration
37 posted 1999-10-08 04:23 AM


Severn said:
quote:
You contradicted yourself - in your first sentences. In your opinion is evil present when the child is conceived or born? Two different things. I know you stated 'in one yet to be conceived' so dear, are you admitting to spirituality at all? If evil were present in a child who was yet to be born - then fine, that's scientific. If before it was conceived then you're admitting to the presence of a life before it has a body. Also the fact that you are including evil as a separate entity that enters someone (at whatever point you want to pick) removes from it any possibility that evil is defined by one's actions and IS actually a thing unto itself. Does that mean then that there is a 'good' force out there too? Something other than ourselves perhaps? Something like GOD? (Argh - there's that nasty G word...)


And you dear, are jumping to conclusions.
(rubbing hands together fiercely)
First, who ever said that the existance of a soul prior to conception had to be a spiritual thing? Could it have been that I was talking about the myriad varieties of molecules and protons and neucleons that form us as we are? Indeed, these form together once a child is concieved. It is my belief that this presents the only true innocence. Wandering atoms of substance cannot be considered evil until they form into an intelligence. Once that occurs, there is the potential for evil... in ALL people!
And if you want to consider "good" and "evil" "forces," consider motivation, intent, beliefs, anything you want. Any and all things have the capacity to be used for good or evil. Even things such as weapons can be used for good in preventing more harm. Or things such as "churches," which are supposed to be the epitome of righteousness, can and often have been used for evil purposes.
Much is the same with humans. We have the inborn capacity for good and evil. How we choose to use those capacities determines whether we are going to be considered good or evil. If we choose to live by what we believe is right, then we can consider ourselves good, vice versa with evil.

Severn said:
quote:
I just don't see how you can equate evil as 'entering' someone if you don't believe in a supernatural. 'Little motes of dust' which disappear into nothing when we die DOES NOT equate with an evil that excepts no one. (Sticking out tongue and saying 'answer that then...')



(sticking tongue back) I just did!

quote:
No, I can't deny evil exists - of course not! No need to tell you to look out your door. But, what I'm interested in is its origins. BUT I CAN'T MAINTAIN IT'S INHERENT YET! If I did that - that would be admitting to myself, quite irrevocably, that God is real - and that's a scary thought!


Evil originated with man. How else can you see it? Even if you ascribe to the belief of man originating in the Garden if Eden, the onset of evil was there. And if you don't, then you can just ascribe it to the onset of any emotions that developed with intelligence. (Which is my particular theory.)
And as far as not believeing in the supernatural....
Who in the world ever told you that my dear? But an existant supernatural realm does not = god.
But that's another story, for now, I leave with the tase of victory in my mouth!
LOVE YOU!!!

Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704

38 posted 1999-10-13 11:57 PM


Oh really? Is that right?
The taste of victory huh?
I DON'T THINK SO!
Have not the time to respond right now my dear argumentative LOSING sparring partner, but I will return and you will be VANQUISHED! ANNIHILATED EVEN...
(long 'evil' laugh disappears into the distance...)

Marilyn
Member Elite
since 1999-09-26
Posts 2621
Ontario, Canada
39 posted 1999-10-14 04:04 PM


Goodness what a debate. The last few posts I have skipped because of the length of the read and my want to post. I believe that the demons of wich you speak are not born into us but created as we grow. We all will have to deal with demons of some sort as we grow and mature. They are all uniquely different as are we uniquely different. To say that the demons are born with in us is unjustifiable. A child that is raised in a loving enviornment and is nurtured and given the opportunity for open minded thought, wrestles with different things then a child abused and beaten into conformity. I am not saying that the child born to the nurturing, open minded home will not have demons. I truely believe that they will have a better capacity to deal with them then a child never allowed to think freely.

I also live by "Treat others as you would be treated." If I live by this why should I have to live with guilt? We are all sinners and we never can be perfect. What is perfect anyway? I more often wrestle with feelings of "Why can't people treat me well?" then with guilt. I rarely have a rude word for people unless pushed to the utmost and when I do speak my mind I do not feel guilty. Simply because I had been pushed well past my limit before confronting. As for the speeding etc. The only law that I have ever broken (to my knowledge) has been speeding as well. In my aging, even my foot has become lighter (has more to do with having children in the car then anything else). You have many valid points here Chris but I still have to disagree with being born with demons. (maybe I am delusional) If a child is born into an envoironment where the influences are good and nuturing, give that child a good and healthy bases to fight the demons of this world. Should that child not become a balanced and healthy person? Should those demons that he/she will have to contend with in their life be less threatening? Less debilitating? Easier to deal with, so they can be able to lead a healthy and happy life? To be able to touch a life in a way that they will always be remembered? I sure do hope so my friend.

I had a wonderful childhood with great, loving parents. It doesn't mean that now in the middle of my life I don't have demons. I do believe that the person that I became while growing up and learning has helped me deal with them well. I have had a difficult life (one I choose for myself) in my marriage and now as a single parent of three beautiful children. I have no help from my ex and I have come to terms with all of it. I have a compassionate heart and still think good things (hope they will come from my ex) when others tell me to face reality. I always believe the best of people to the point of being continually dissappointed. These I guess you could say are my demons. I expect of others what I know I give, nothing less and nothing more. Alright my ramble has taken a different turn then I expected. I hope I didn't throw off this discussion.

[This message has been edited by Marilyn (edited 10-14-1999).]

Skyfyre
Senior Member
since 1999-08-15
Posts 1906
Sitting in Michael's Lap
40 posted 1999-10-28 12:28 PM


Christopher: I apologize for my tardiness, but here I am -- have brain, will argue!

Firstly, my main argument with the assertions you make in this piece is that they are far too vague. You speak of "rollicking demons ... waiting to be released, to wreak their long-suppressed anger on others." Well, whence the demons, my friend -- and while we're at it, whence the anger?

Further on in the piece, you define the demons as "the darkness that every heart hides ... [that] yearns to show itself, strives for recognition of its gruesome art." Granted, I will agree that we all harbor a degree of darkness, the magnitude of which varies from one individual to the next, but of what "art" are you speaking? The art of cruelty? Savagery? Violence? Or simply evil?

Again, you refer to "the evil of our own hearts." Is that evil inborn or learned? Retaliative or unprovoked? How did it come about?

I say, at the risk of repeating myself (as I have said the same in DreamEvil's post), that evil is a consequence of morality. Man is not by nature a moral creature; if left to himself (raised away from civilization), he will be savage and animalistic, but not sadistic and cruel as many products of society are. It is the constrictive properties of morality, which run contrary to the self-aggrandizing nature of man, that provokes -- nay, creates -- the evil that men do.

Thank you, Christopher, for recommending this piece for my consideration.

--Kesslynne

------------------
You cannot choose the way of your death, but the path you choose will determine its own end.


Oscar Wilde
Junior Member
since 2000-03-09
Posts 31
San Francisco
41 posted 2000-03-29 09:04 AM


Your style amazes me with its imagination; you are a very gifted writer.
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