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DreamEvil
Member Elite
since 1999-06-22
Posts 2396


0 posted 1999-07-27 09:48 PM


Mankind is basically, indeed fundamentally Evil.

Children are perhaps the best example of this. Why do all children, no matter the country or environment, delight in torturing animals, exercising the power of life and death over those less than they? Why do children pull the wings off a fly, or burn ants with a magnifying glass? Isn't tying cans to a cat's tail malicious? What child doesn't alternately envy and enjoy, hate and love their parents?

If a human child is deprived of human socialization and contact, is he or she, human? Take a child from his parents at birth. Put him or her in a black, warm, lightless, room so they are fed, sleep, etc. in total darkness. He or she is allowed no contact with any person for 12 years. When the door is opened and light is let in after so long without socialization, are they human? They don't act it. If they did in fact injure or kill whoever brought them into the light, wouldn't that act be Evil? According to society, murder is Evil. It may be justifiable, but it is still evil. One could argue that not being raised as human; they are not accountable for their actions. If you do then mass murderers and serial killers are not accountable, if they weren't raised "normally".

If the basic nature of man is fundamentally good, why are there wars? Perhaps the definition of Good varies from culture to culture. Let us define war: War is the result of a conflict between two (or more) opposing or differing ideas. War can involve near-Genocide, the extermination of everybody who holds an opposing view. In fairness it could be said that only a few are Evil and enforce their will upon others. If so, the Good people aren't. They allow the Evil to flourish. Isn't murder Evil? Rape? Theft? All this occurs both during and as a result of war.

With this and more facing anyone, still it will be denied, no one wants it to be true. This is denial on a global scale. We are assaulted by moral dilemmas because we have been conditioned to do Good and to hide or revile our darker half. Even if incontrovertibly proven, no one will say they believe the basic nature of Man is Evil, even if they do.

Therefore, due to conditioning, we strive for Goodness and try to banish Evil. Until Mankind recognizes it's nature and accepts it, we will never be whole and complete.

©1999 DreamEvil


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Shall I indulge in flights of fancy hampered by clipped wings?
DreamEvil©



© Copyright 1999 DreamEvil - All Rights Reserved
Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612
Hurricane Alley
1 posted 1999-07-27 10:52 PM


You write with clarity even if your vision of the nature of man is a little skewed. A good essay, invites comments and this one certainly does. But should my comments on the subject be limited here or should I take them to the Alley?

Let's do a light commentary.

You generalize about 'all' children delighting in torturing animals. Not true! I didn't. My children didn't.

Wars are not started by 'bad' people, just people whose ideas differ from someone's. Hitler was evil, I'll grant you that, but nine times out of ten, war is started only by one person or a small group of people. Are the patriotic armies that support this people evil? Or are they just being patriotic? If I started a war with New Mexico and told my army that they ate children, my army, trusting me, would believe it! My army goes to war to fight for what they believe in but they are not evil! I would be!

I will never believe that we should strive to find our evil nature! Man is basically good. It's harder to be good because the rewards are so much better than for being evil!

Thanks, I enjoyed getting that off my chest!




DreamEvil
Member Elite
since 1999-06-22
Posts 2396

2 posted 1999-07-27 11:02 PM


Glad you did too. I don't say we should embrace evil, only accept it.

Those same armies will kill, rape, and pillage the enemy, all in the name of patriotism. The Good people would never let the Evil in power or support murder. Make no mistake, killing in war, is murder.

You are correct in that not ALL children do, but across cultural lines, a significant portion do.

[This message has been edited by DreamEvil (edited 07-27-99).]

fjones
Member
since 1999-06-07
Posts 98
MS
3 posted 1999-07-27 11:04 PM


Oh the reply I could give but this is not what this form is about and my words would fall on deaf ears.
DreamEvil
Member Elite
since 1999-06-22
Posts 2396

4 posted 1999-07-27 11:09 PM


No dear, they wouldn't. I posted this just to get people to think about the causes of Mankind's problems. A little introspection as a whole might help us find a way to resolve the problems and differences we face, without resorting to violence.
Angel_of_Music
Junior Member
since 1999-07-25
Posts 35
Sanger, TX USA
5 posted 1999-07-27 11:33 PM


Dream, after reading your essay, I have this to say. I agree, Man is inherantly evil, we are all born sinners. But, as you say, we should all strive for goodness.

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"In sleep he sang to me...in dreams he came...that voice which calls to me, and speaks my name..."

Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669
Michigan, US
6 posted 1999-07-28 01:06 AM


Okay, let's start at the top. I think this is well written and extremely well organized. You succinctly state your thesis right at the beginning, then argue through to a conclusion that logically follows the thesis. Unfortunately, you have a couple of holes in the middle that detract from an otherwise strong argument.

Minor Hole: Your "thought experiment" in paragraph three is scientifically flawed. Research has shown (a) an animal infant totally deprived of interaction will die within a month (most agree this could be extended to include humans, though thankfully no one has tested the hypothesis), and (b) complete sensory deprivation will drive a person insane in a relatively short time (don't remember the exact span, but it was certainly less than a week). Man, it seems, simply cannot exist in the darkness. I call this a "minor" hole because it can easily be plugged by acknowledging the scientific evidence and adding a "But if…" By not doing that, however, your conclusions in that paragraph are weakened. I suspect the best thing, however, would be to devise a thought experiment that didn't fly in the face of current evidence.

Bigger Hole: This one really hurts your argument, because it casts doubt on the validity of the entire reasoning process. Nearing your conclusions, you say, "Even if incontrovertibly proven, no one will say they believe the basic nature of Man is Evil, even if they do." Either this is a blatantly false statement or you're not saying what you seem to be saying - since no one will ever say it. Do you see the contradiction?

Major Hole: Before you can argue that mankind is something, you have to unequivocally define that something. I'm not at all sure that's possible, but you at least have to try. You allude to what evil is, but offer only examples. I might well agree that mankind is essentially evil - but it would have to depend on the definition of evil. Without that definition I can't agree to anything. Make sense?

I would love to see you tackle this again, shoring up the holes in logic and expanding your arguments. The key is going to be your definition of evil: get the reader to agree to that, and you have a fighting chance. Write an essay that is logically sound - and then we'll talk about the content.

DreamEvil
Member Elite
since 1999-06-22
Posts 2396

7 posted 1999-07-28 01:18 AM


Perfectly, Ron. The problem is that Evil and Good are relative to the Society in which we live. I tried to be neutral, it appears it became ambiguous. I will rewrite this piece and get back to you. Thank you.
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669
Michigan, US
8 posted 1999-07-28 02:20 AM


Hehe. Be careful there, DE, lest you shoot yourself in the foot before you get started.

Mankind is inherently evil. Evil is defined by mankind (society). Uh, how can we inherently be something we've yet to define?

Circle, circle, where is thy beginning?

Gentle Soul
Member
since 1999-07-12
Posts 273
Vinton,Ohio USA
9 posted 1999-07-28 02:44 AM


I agree with DE... man is evil... my largest fear is man.. we are so unpredictable.. I mean.. a person can act totally fine.. and down under neath be a walking time bomb ready to go off at the slightest thing.. being the last straw that broke the camels back.. I believe man can overcome evil(but not alone).. Wth God's help.. I think we could all strive for good.. but we being homosepian.. we unfortunately screw up from time to time..

WEll Written my brother.. Im proud of you.. *smile*

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Gënt£ë¤§°û£


~one voice~
Senior Member
since 1999-07-08
Posts 664
Billings, MT USA
10 posted 1999-07-28 05:29 AM


Very well written essay, Dream, but I have to disagree with you. I believe children do the "evil" things that they do because they don't know any better. They want to know what will happen if they pull the wings off a fly...merely curiousity, in my opinion. I believe children are the most innocent beings. They know nothing of hate and predjudice, until we teach them. They don't understand why some adults think one race is different from another. They don't understand that at all. If you teach a child to hate, they will hate. If you teach a child to love, they will love. And unfortunately, I also believe it to be impossible not to teach them to hate. We've all been conditioned by society. However, you can instill good morals in your children that override that hatred, I believe.

The way I see it, until they are taught otherwise, children learn by hands-on experiences. They don't understand out words when we try to explain it to them. My 4 year old doesn't understand why she can't wear my make-up, or why she can't decorate the walls with crayon...she thinks she is doing something good.... They think so simply...we adults tend to complicate things. And that leads to not understanding...

------------------
~onevoice~

"She looked at her life
like lines, never-ending,
constantly forming,
reforming and bending."



Andrew Scott
Member Elite
since 1999-06-24
Posts 2558
Redlands,CA,USA
11 posted 1999-07-28 06:50 PM


(Soapbox, please.)

If you're going to make a gross general assumption that humankind is inherently evil, than I agree with Ron. The first step is to clearly define the nature of "evil." And if you agree that a sweeping definition should come first, than I believe you have an impossible task given the vastness of the human condition and the societies it creates.

A great deal of your argument revolves around the act of ceasing another's life. Speaking from just a modern western viewpoint most would agree killing someone is far from being a good thing, but even so most of the time we'll qualify that sentiment by asking under what circumstances the death is to occur. If I pull out a gun and shoot you dead for no other reason than you were the closest living thing and I laughed with the sheer enjoyment of your destruction, I'm sure we would all agree that to be a pretty evil act. However, if you were threatening my children and the only way of protecting them was to shoot you with said same gun, I doubt anyone would be quick to point the finger. In both cases you have the same result, somebody is dead, but societal views and circumstances are what decide the quality of the act. Evil / Not Evil.

The same could be said for euthanasia, capital punishment, and the soldier in the field. Somebody is going to end up dead through the actions of another, but that doesn't make the act or the person committing it evil. It's your believes concerning the act and the surrounding circumstances that decide.

As for the "malicious" nature of children, I bow to One Voice and her comments.

Personally, I believe humankind to be inherently neutral, born with some general tendencies and shaped by environment. We create good and evil within ourselves. The level to which we are successful with one or the other is largely based upon popularly accepted societal norms.


Thank you for listening, and have a great day!

(I return the soapbox.)

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