How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 Q & A
 Free Verse Vs, Blank Verse
 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Nan   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

Free Verse Vs, Blank Verse

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


0 posted 07-04-2000 04:33 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Okay, could somebody please explain the fundamental differences of these?  And, if it is a matter of meter, could someone further explain how much of meter is interpretation of the reading of the poem
And....If it is indeed a matter of interpretation of the reading how best then to direct the flow of meter within the poem's structure?

I'd appreciate it very much.  Me stuck.
Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 05-20-99
Posts 24426
Cape Cod Massachusetts USA


1 posted 07-04-2000 08:28 AM       View Profile for Nan   Email Nan   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nan's Home Page   View IP for Nan

Good question... and believe it or not, the answer is pretty basic.

Free verse has no rules... While there may be some hint of meter and rhyme, there are no standard guidelines.  Anything goes.  You can write anything, in any (non)meter and put line/stanza breaks where ever you choose for the best effect of your words.

Blank verse doesn't rhyme, but it's specifically written in iambic pentameter.  That means each line has to consist of ten syllables, set to iambic meter.... (like a sonnet)

da-DUM/da-DUM/da-DUM/da-DUM/da-DUM

Like this -
From sheltered berth embarks the maiden sail

from-SHEL/tered-BERTH/em-BARKS/the-MAI/den-SAIL


I hope that makes some sense???...  



[This message has been edited by Nan (edited 07-04-2000).]
doreen peri
Member Rara Avis
since 05-25-99
Posts 8028
Virginia


2 posted 07-05-2000 05:52 PM       View Profile for doreen peri   Email doreen peri   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for doreen peri

Well, I'm certainly no poetry expert or poetry teacher like Nan... so, i can't really explain anything ... LOL... but I wrote a poem about it once... and here it is:

------------------------------------
To Rhyme or Not to Rhyme-- (is that a question?)
------------------------------------

Part I.

Some do not like a poem that rhymes--
no matter what the words --
This seems quite crazy, ignorant
and very much absurd --

And then there's those who dislike poems
which show a heart and soul-
Despite the lack of metered rhyme-
They claim there's much untold.

But as for me, I like a poem
that has some substance but....
If it rhymes, I think that's fine,
and if it don't, so what?
__________________________

Part II.

Write from your heart
like blood dripping deep
from the core
of your soul
and the hole that is empty
will fill up with gold
and your mind will expand
to horizons not yet noticed --
beyond graveyards,
deep-seated passions,
pain, love and glee --
and the wedding of your eyes
to the mountains of truth inside
will meld
with rhapsody
instantly signified.
Write as if
your memory's denied.
Write as if the you inside
is ready to be born.

Write as if
it is the dawn --

the morn

and then begone
with critic scorn.

Be free and
let your worry cease.
And with your pen
make peace.


(c) doreen peri, 1999
all rights reserved

WhtDove
Member Rara Avis
since 07-22-99
Posts 9561
Illinois


3 posted 07-05-2000 06:49 PM       View Profile for WhtDove   Email WhtDove   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit WhtDove's Home Page   View IP for WhtDove

Woohoo Doreen! ~clapping~
Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 05-20-99
Posts 24426
Cape Cod Massachusetts USA


4 posted 07-05-2000 09:47 PM       View Profile for Nan   Email Nan   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nan's Home Page   View IP for Nan

ROTFL.... Way to go, Doreen...

Upstaged by the Periscope...
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


5 posted 07-06-2000 09:33 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Nan, thank you for your help, It is appreciated very much...

White Dove--thank you for directing me here.

doreen--and a big hug and thank you for your wonderful words of artistry...I curtsey...but still, there is something in me that just wants to KNOW, ya know?
doreen peri
Member Rara Avis
since 05-25-99
Posts 8028
Virginia


6 posted 07-06-2000 10:20 PM       View Profile for doreen peri   Email doreen peri   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for doreen peri

Nan... there's NO-body who could upstage you!!! hehe.... *grin*... no kidding


serenity said, "me stuck"... well, i'm stuck, too... all i know how to do is type what i feel... sometimes it rhymes, sometimes it doesn't... it's like toast... sometimes it's burnt, sometimes it isn't... what did THAT mean? hehe

see? another ramble!!! geesh...

you think god created keyboards just so i could ramble on them??? hehe

anyway, great question, serenity... and I'll check back to read more!

Nan
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 05-20-99
Posts 24426
Cape Cod Massachusetts USA


7 posted 07-07-2000 01:44 PM       View Profile for Nan   Email Nan   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nan's Home Page   View IP for Nan

Did Sumbunny say KEYBOARD??



Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 07-17-99
Posts 8273


8 posted 07-08-2000 08:00 AM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

Hey - can I do a rant on how wonderful Freeverse is, can I can I?

I will anyway...and try and talk about interpretation in a general sense and a wee bit on meter also...
(without sounding too biased on FV I hope, lol)

As far as Freeverse goes, Nan summed it up when she said 'best effect' of your words. That is the essence of the lack of rules. In many ways I think FV can be harder than metered rhyme or even blank verse - simply because you are out there in the big wide world of unlimited possibility...lol.

While it is true FV poetry can consist of just about anything, some fail to write a good anything...

and that, in my opinion, is because the key to FV is flow. It all revolves around flow or lack thereof if that is the intent.

It also depends on the way a poem is read too...I think many FV authors would shudder if they could hear the way a poem is being read - hehe...

as there is no meter to guide the way the words are sounded, and here I can really only speak for myself of course, as an FV author I often rely on internal rhymes, syllable length, vowel sounds and even the placement of a word for interpretation.

I guess I could show you an example.

Here is a poem of mine called Water Fallen

I used several techniques here to affect the way the poem is read and interpreted.

Water Fallen


Throat caught
  I rush
in lost vision

and where leaves walk I
  scream by
in winds moving

faster than all autumns
              
            I

loosed in
  fuming waters
tumble
spray-turned aware

less of ending
than forever
falling

and
if I
just
slow
to

halting

surely the water
  could curl me
in the hush
of soft currents

yet there
I am
   just    
a peace-lost
     drift of
            me
      
water fallen

Ok - I will just point out a few things here.

There is one 'I' standing alone. That is intended to create a pause in the reading...the very fact it is alone is an abberation to continual flow - so it should theoretically halt the reader...in effect, what should be read is 'faster than all autumns, I' and then a short pause, enough to segregate the 'I' from 'loosed'. There is also internal rhyme here...but there is no meter to speak of...this rhyme - of the three 'I's' and the 'by' aid the all important flow.

The next section is started without any capitalisation (horrors! I very rarely use capitals       )

So we have:

loosed in
  fuming waters
tumble
spray-turned aware

less of ending
than forever
falling

the internal rhyme of 'fuming' and 'falling' gives the flow and this is aided by my selected vowels...every word is chosen with care. It is at this point I wanted to change the rhythm, interrupt the flow, so the next bit arrives:

and
if I
just
slow
to

halting


totally arhythmic when compared to the first parts...

this is intended to affect the interpretation, to lead a reader onto the sense of being in a water fallen state...

Now layout becomes really crucial, this part:

surely the water
  could curl me
in the hush
of soft currents

is in block format to echo peaceful waters...

while this:

yet there
I am
   just    
a peace-lost
     drift of
            me
      
is all over the place...echoing a fall of water

while the very last line, in italics:

water fallen

is a hushed whisper...and one of resignation or acceptance...the end of the journey. Phew...

I hope that made some kind of sense in relation to the interpretation thing...basically there are squillions of factors that go into interpretation.

Now meter and interpretation. I am not an authority...I haven't written a metered poem in my life - not intentionally anyway!

I know meter creates perfect flow, provided it is read correctly...there really is only one way, as Nan said, to read a metered poem - yet, that can often be difficult to discern as there are also lots of nasty types of meter...lol...like Trochaic pentameter (don't ask me WHAT its meter is!) and sometimes in an Iambic pentametered sonnet you will find one line with 11 syllables, generally called a 'feminine ending'. YUK! But often though, when reading poems that use these, you don't need to know them to find yourself falling into reading the flow naturally...meter is designed to fit natural speech patterns and flows...

so yes, my long babble is at an end...

hope it was some use...(let's count how many times I used the word flow...hahaha)

          K




[This message has been edited by Severn (edited 07-08-2000).]
Rex
Member
since 06-29-2000
Posts 484
Houston, Texas


9 posted 07-08-2000 01:14 PM       View Profile for Rex   Email Rex   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Rex's Home Page   View IP for Rex

Serenity...As you are a devotee of free verse, so I am as regards rhyme and meter. I do not like free verse....perhaps because I do not properly understand it.  I have read your excellent example above, and am still having trouble.  Would you perhaps do me the favor of taking the following short poem and re-write it in free verse so I might be better able to see with more clarity?

             God's Wisdom

A willow grew by a smooth, clear lake,
        And let her laces glide
    Above the deep, blue stillness,
    That they might be multiplied.

     Because the Maker of that tree,
        In His divine direction,
    Had spread a mirror at her feet---
        To double her perfection!

Thanks for your patience.

Regards,

Rex


Poetry is the spontaneous overflow of powerful feelings: it takes its origin from emotion recollected in tranquility.

-William Wordsworth-
Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 07-17-99
Posts 8273


10 posted 07-08-2000 07:36 PM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

Hey Rex...I am honoured to help - wow! (Except...er...it's Severn....lol) Seriously, it is just so great that you find my input helpful...

give me some time to do this and I will come back - geesh - what a challenge! A rhymed and metered to an FV...whoa...

(I love every minute of it!)

  K

Actually, on thinking about it - I have one question for you - how closely would you like me to stick to the original - as in, would you prefer if I used most of the same words and many in the same order...or shall I take the basic concept and use that? It is entirely up to you - for both will produce different effects...I could do two actually...lol...but I'm not enthusiastic at all...


[This message has been edited by Severn (edited 07-08-2000).]
Rex
Member
since 06-29-2000
Posts 484
Houston, Texas


11 posted 07-09-2000 12:24 PM       View Profile for Rex   Email Rex   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Rex's Home Page   View IP for Rex

Severn....(sorry about that).  As long as you deal with the same subject matter, please do that with which you are most comfortable.  Write it as though the original thought was yours.  Regards.

Poetry is the spontaneous overflow of powerful feelings: it takes its origin from emotion recollected in tranquility.

-William Wordsworth-
Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 07-17-99
Posts 8273


12 posted 07-09-2000 06:46 PM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

On to it!
JP
Senior Member
since 05-25-99
Posts 1391
Loomis, CA


13 posted 07-10-2000 10:50 AM       View Profile for JP   Email JP   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit JP's Home Page   View IP for JP

Severn has done a fine job of explaining the flow of FV, not many I have seen have discussed the use of space and line placement  and their function in FV flow.

Another part of FV that has not been discussed is word usage, or lack of usage.  We all know that Shakespear invented a lot of words in his plays... FV poets often follow similar lines and invent words for thier needs or use words that seem out of place to push thier meaning.  We also omit words to give a phrase a completely different bent.

I can't wait to see What Severn does with the poem.... hmmm... I may take a crack at it myself...



Yesterday is ash, tomorrow is smoke; only today does the fire burn.
JP

"Everything is your own damn fault, if you are any good." E. Hemmingway
Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 07-17-99
Posts 8273


14 posted 07-12-2000 02:17 AM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

Hey Rex...I have done two - the first uses many of your words - it is very short and very simple...I have used italics to
produce a shift in tone and perhaps create emphasis on those lines.

The format I chose as you can see is one where the stanzas are not blocked. This is principally to give a quality of space and echo the movement of leaves, and to underscore the essential simplicity. There is of course internal rhyme - which I achieved mainly through the placement of your original words.

Willow
  by the waters
    smoothed and clear

your lace a-glide

over the blue
  so still
    and there multiplied

your maker aloft

in direction divine
  spreads out
    about your feet

a quiet mirror

and there
  your perfection doubled
    drifts


Now the second version is entirely my own, but huddles close to the original concept:

These quiet waters
  
they lead me
a-search
and drifted

the sky
  I am caught
  beneath her
  bare
  
then to the willow tree
  I walk
    
could any more the envy
of an arch
and a commune
with watered voice
be touched
  than beneath her boughs?

And under sky
  and under her
     I am found
     encased

In surround
  I catch my face
  within her leaves
mirrored in gentle peace

unearthed
I see heaven
in the bowl
of reflection
I embrace

this is perfection

and
     I
       reach
               my
                    hand
to the merge
of tree and water line

this piece
of sublimity
  slides briefly over me


and
I walk from the choate
into a breadth

   exposed


I used many different techniques to make this as much a visual poem (like Water Fallen - the one in my original example) as a vocal one.

First a brief explanation of the main intent: I decided to give the water as much a focus as the Willow tree. I thought the two of them together expressed the element of a whole, and hence perfection. The speaker of the piece feels exposed under just the sky, and feels safe under the comfort of the willow - the added reflection of the tree in the water heightens that feeling. To further emphasise the cyclic nature of the tree and the willow combined I have the subject leaving the tree and the water - and becoming exposed to the sky again. Hence - full circle.

The visual things!
The first visual element is this section:

'the sky
  I am caught
  beneath her
  bare'

the indentation of the last three lines under 'the sky' provides a visual image of what the lines convey.

This is echoed later by:

And under sky
  and under her
     I am found
     encased

which expresses the same.
But with the recognition of the reflection of the willow in the water, the speaker's feelings of safe enclosement are expressed through:

'In surround
  I catch my face
  within her leaves
mirrored in gentle peace'

Here - the middle lines are caught between the first and last.

This part:

'and
     I
       reach
               my
                    hand'

indicates the action of reaching down while the last word 'exposed' is on its own and centred within the poem to give it space and illustrate the effect of being out from under the tree, back under the sky.

The italics are used for changes of tone and emphasis...often my italicked lines are designed to be read as whispers, or at least more quietly than standard lines.

Now JP brought up an awesome point about word usage - I am forever making up words - or to be exact, I delight in making verbs into nouns and nouns into verbs and adjectives into verbs etc...lol. This practice to me not only gives a poem its own flavour, uniqueness, but tests the limits - quite important when experimenting.

In this poem I have not done that a lot - I used the verb 'drifted' as a noun in the first stanza.

I also labelled the speaker as 'unearthed' which, if attempted to be read literally makes absolutely no sense at all...hahaha...but here, it means that the speaker is taken away from simply experiencing life on earth and sees a piece of heaven - most unearthly!  

The internal rhyme - yes, it is there as I am sure you can see. I have also used another technique which - (and here I am frustrated cause it does have a 'proper' name, I just for the life of me can't remember it...lol...) involves using two words that only rhyme in part. I have used this in:

'In surround
  I catch my face
  within her leaves
mirrored in gentle peace'

where the words 'face' and 'peace' have the same rhythmical ending.

OK - so those are the basics - hehe...please feel free to ask me any questions about it Rex...I hope it helps!

K (P.S - thanks for the challenge, I had fun)




serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


15 posted 07-12-2000 01:38 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

This is great, I thank everyone for enlightening me...Severn you have been wonderful...I was wondering tho, if you could take the same poem, or at least concept, and write one in free verse, the other in blank?  If it is a bother or does not appeal to you I understand, but it would really help for me to compare and contrast the two...
Jamie
Member Elite
since 06-26-2000
Posts 3219
Blue Heaven


16 posted 07-12-2000 03:20 PM       View Profile for Jamie   Email Jamie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Jamie's Home Page   View IP for Jamie

A good way to remember the difference is to think of the word blank as meaning that the ends of the lines where rhymes would normally appear are "blank," i.e., devoid of rhyme;
          the free in free verse refers to the freedom from fixed patterns of traditional versification.===from the glossary of poetic terms....

Jamie

Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito. - Virgil.
"Yield thou not to adversity, but press on the more bravely".

 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> Q & A >> Free Verse Vs, Blank Verse Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors