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Ah, Liberty....
| Critical Analysis #1 |
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Ah, Liberty.... |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563
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Ah, liberty... For the first time in this existence, I shake off enclosure, restrictions, embracing an embryonic individuality emerging from within environs of sovereignty, emancipation. I walk my rooms of autonomy and extrication with virginal realization of serenity, of quiet bliss; This is now my castle. Ah, liberty... Why does there have to be a flip-side? Why must my joy equate into others pain? Cannot they comprehend that half my life I gave to being the caretaker, forever safekeeping them from hurt, while consumed by introspection, soul-searching? Once footing realized, pretense weighed too heavily, till, at the end, I thought my mind would decide to take its liberty, leaving me behind. It gave me no options. I am happy... when I don't think of the others pain. Ah, liberty... There is always that pound of flesh... Kris "It is wisdom to know others; It is enlightenment to know one's self" - Lao Tzu [This message has been edited by warmhrt (edited 11-01-2001).] |
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Kevin Taylor Member
since 1999-12-23
Posts 185near Vancouver, BC, Canada |
"Ah, liberty... There is always that pound of flesh..." It's been a while but as I recall the pound of flesh was never collected (fortunately). Portia's speech about the quality of mercy and all that. Oh, Liberty! Hearts beating Freedom, three hundred million strong, salute thee! Here, with Beauty, Truth and all that springs from Love and Duty. Honor, Hope and all that's seen through honest eyes. Oh, Liberty! Kevin "Poetry is, at once, what you get... and how you get there." [This message has been edited by kevintaylor (edited 11-01-2001).] |
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The Lady of Shallot Senior Member
since 2001-10-03
Posts 818USA |
Hello, some very good ideas here but that's the problem let me give you two things I've learned that change poetry into a visual.... I'll let you in on two fundamental secrets of poetry: The reader/listener is most engaged when they can draw their own conclusions, i.e. do a little thinking for themselves. (Hence the old adage, "Show, don't Tell".) The best way to kill off a reader's/listener's interest is to present things they have no way of engaging with, either because their thinking and feeling is already "done for them" or they have simply no idea what is going on. Second, Poetry is made with words, not ideas. Keepp writing! -befriend yourself and you will never be alone- [This message has been edited by The Lady of Shallot (edited 11-01-2001).] |
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Kevin Taylor Member
since 1999-12-23
Posts 185near Vancouver, BC, Canada |
I thoroughly agree that audience/reader participation is what makes poetry happen for them. From there to the '"Show, don't Tell"' cliche I would respectfully disagree. From an essay on the matter: ""Don't tell me. Show me." These words can often be heard, or at least read, in critiques or comments on poetry amongst budding poets and critics alike... "Don't tell me. Show me." I'm sure it is sound advice. Well meant. Unfortunately I don't hold with the view, or rather, the all too oft implications of those few words. "Don't tell me," obviates the direct communication. There is no reason why a direct communication cannot be poetry. "Show me," is, here, a euphemism for "indirect communication." Or at least sometimes it is. Don't tell me that you love me. Show me. Fair enough. But in poetry the "show me" resolves into something else that has "become" poetry. "Show me" is an imagist technique. As long as there are parts of speech there will be images created and used by poets. But some of the most memorable lines of poetry ever written are "Tell me" through and through. "To be or not to be..." is better remembered than the beautiful lines and imagery that follow. So don't show me. At least not all the way up. Hint, tease, flash, drag and flirt - whatever it takes to get me to add MY images. MY experience. MY universe. And not one ounce or syllable more than that. And when I have done that and created thereby the poetry that you had intended, then I will know that you are, for that moment and perhaps ever, a great poet." Your second point, that "Poetry is made with words, not ideas." is a contradiction of your point on audience participation. The audience participates with ideas. The poet evokes them with the many tools he has, only one of which is words. Rhythm, form (includes presentation) etc are oftentimes as important to the poetry as the words he chooses. The inability of the audience / reader to participate may very well be related to an inability to understand the words. Poetry is not the words on the page. A poem might be. Poetry is what happens between the audience and poet. Kevin |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
First, the statement, "I'll let you in on two fundamental secrets of poetry:" has a somewhat pretentious ring to it, especially since what follows are not secrets at all. To me, that detracts significantly from the credibility of the observations while adding nothing of value. Pretty strong argument Kevin. And you are right. "Don't tell me. Show me." is probably the most overused cliche that I see, in this forum anyway. I don't mean to suggest it is false but the admonition, in itself, has become pretty much meaningless. The statement alone can mean anything from "You have given so much unnecessary detail as to make this unbearably boring" to "I don't have any idea what the hell this is all about." Or sometimes it seems to just be a way of saying, "This really stinks." That said Kris, I thought "flip-side" seemed a little out-of-place. I mean, it fits and says what you wanted to say but the slang phrase just didn't ring true with the rest of the wording, IMHO that is. Pete Never express yourself more clearly than you can think - Niels Bohr [This message has been edited by Not A Poet (edited 11-01-2001).] |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Kevin, Odd...I remember the pound of flesh as only being associated with Shylock...didn't remember Portia's speech at all. It's been forever since I've read "Merchant..." I thank you so much for saying just what I would have said in reply to The Lady of Shallot. The "show, don't tell" phrase is commonly used on this forum, and one of our moderators is fond of it. I know he means well, (*W*) and is only trying his best to help, but as you say, there are different types of poetry. Thank you so much again for sparing me the effort of posting a defense of the style in which this was written. Kris "It is wisdom to know others; |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
[This message has been edited by warmhrt (edited 11-02-2001).] |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Lady, Please refer to Kevin's reply above...and just think of what poetry would be if it were only words, with no thought(ideas)behind them! If you are implying that the thought should not be obvious, then that is a different point. That all depends on the type of poetry that's being written. Thank you for reading and for commenting. I will always write...till I can no more. Kris "It is wisdom to know others; |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Dear Pete, So were you saying "this really stinks"????*S* Anyway, about the use of "flip-side", I thought it was a nice contrast in the otherwise straight-edged language...gave a tiny glimpse of the "human", if you know what I'm trying to say. I could be very wrong, of course, and you could be very right. I thank you for reading, and for taking the time to comment. Kris "It is wisdom to know others; |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Kris, I am never "very right."  And in no way did I mean to belittle the important concept of "Show, don't tell."  Pete |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Dear Pete  ,I was not implying that you meant to belittle the important concept of "Show, don't tell." I was refering to your commnet made in your earlier reply: The statement alone can mean anything from "You have given so much unnecessary detail as to make this unbearably boring" to "I don't have any idea what the hell this is all about." Or sometimes it seems to just be a way of saying, "This really stinks." That's where I got the idea you might be saying that this peice of work "really stinks". Your face has made me  .Kris "It is wisdom to know others; |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Ok, we're not really communicating here. quote: the little "noway" smilie was to emphasize the point of the statement it followed. And I did not say this poem stinks. I know it's hard to "read my lips" over the internet but I said "Show, don't tell" often seems to mean nothing more than that. The comment has nothing to do with your poem which I enjoyed except for the one small distraction I mentioned before. Sorry to confuse. Pete |
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hush Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653Ohio, USA |
*rolls eyes* Gee whiz... I never knew poetry was words? Oh well, there's a topic devoted to the subject in philosophy. Kris, I think the alitteration in stanza one is a little too much... the E's are kind of overwhelming. That's my only real suggestion... The pound of flesh bit at the end had some god impact. I eat only sleep and air -Nicole Blackman |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
hush, I guess I didn't even realize how many "E" words I had used. It wasn't intentional alliteration...just the words that seemed to fit the feeling. I'll try to work on that a bit, perhaps. Thanks for pointing it out, and for reading and commenting. Kris "It is wisdom to know others; |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
It may well be that the term itself has exhausted it's use value, but it does, most of the time, have a fairly narrow meaning -- for me anyway: 1. the concrete over the abstract 2. the specific over the general 3. the situational over the philosophical 4. the description over the prescription Hamlet's line is already in a dramatic context so it is a form of showing. What if Shakespeare wrote instead, "And then Hamlet mused over committing suicide"? It's the same idea. But the words are different. Or is it the same idea? To me, there's a huge difference between saying, "His words hurt me" and actually telling/showing me what those words were. One other point: ambiguity in poetry is almost always better when the abstraction (Is he a good guy? Is he a bad guy?) is left out and you concentrate on action and sense, not on judgement. Let the reader do that. So many people seem to think it's the other way around. More later, Brad PS Including a look at the poem  |
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Kevin Taylor Member
since 1999-12-23
Posts 185near Vancouver, BC, Canada |
Well I'll go along with most of this as long as the terms are a form of poetic relativism. At which point the advice should be "Show me more" or "Tell me less". Something like: "Don't tell me EVERYTHING (leave something up to me)". Personally I like some poetry that is completely abstract. Something based more on sound than visual elements. Where, read aloud, the audience can experience an emotional (or intellectual) hit without direct reference to their past experience (baggage). Usually when I see attempts at this it doesn't work for me. But when it does ... oh my! Kevin Poetry is the achievement of Art through language, rhythm and form. Poetry is the art of Achievement through language, rhythm and form. [This message has been edited by kevintaylor (edited 11-04-2001).] |
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