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Critical Analysis #1
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DYME
Member
since 2000-07-29
Posts 104
Texas

0 posted 2001-06-23 03:18 PM


One Nation Under God **5/15/01**

Prayer can be taken out of public places at one persons request, but cursing can't

One nation under God

The Bible is constantly changed to abide by peoples rules and not vice versa

One nation under God

Our Holy one can't be mentioned by name in the media, but satan, devil, and lucifer can

One nation under God

We can't pray publically in God's name, but we can swear as much as we want and use his name in vain

One nation under God

Sexuality and drugs are shown on every channel on T.V., everyday, every half hour. But any shows about God are saved for Sunday

One nation under God

God and his word have been altered and variated so many times so that we may be pleased with him. No one changes their lives so that he will be pleased with us

One nation under God?


No weapon formed against me shall prosper... ISAIAH 54:17

© Copyright 2001 Shunte' D. - All Rights Reserved
helen smith
Member
since 2001-03-12
Posts 240

1 posted 2001-06-23 08:36 PM


just want you to know I am proud of you
DYME
Member
since 2000-07-29
Posts 104
Texas
2 posted 2001-06-23 08:56 PM


Thank you. Your positive reply means a lot to me.

No weapon formed against me shall prosper... ISAIAH 54:17

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
3 posted 2001-06-23 09:11 PM


Are you sure you want this to be seen as a poem?

Perhaps, this would be better in Feelings or Philosophy or even in the Lounge?

If you want us to look at it as a poem, you forget one of the first tenets of good poetry, show don't tell.

And certainly don't preach.

Brad

DYME
Member
since 2000-07-29
Posts 104
Texas
4 posted 2001-06-23 09:18 PM


Thank you for your reply and your suggestion it was good. But the main idea was this was not really something I felt it was more of what I have seen and how I have seen it. If you know of some other ways I can change somethings around and yet keep my central idea and focus then please, I'm asking you to share your ideas with me. Thank you again.

No weapon formed against me shall prosper... ISAIAH 54:17

hush
Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653
Ohio, USA
5 posted 2001-06-23 10:31 PM


Well, you could start by having your facts straight.

'Sexuality and drugs are shown on every channel on T.V., everyday, every half hour. But any shows about God are saved for Sunday'

I don't know about where you live, but I can flip on the preview channel, and at any given time, see at least one or two religious programs. In fact, the Family Channel might as well just be the 700 Club channel. We actually have a religious station here- so before you climb the soap-box, you had better have a strong rant.

Also, I'm sorry, but this is too preachy, Brad's right. If you want to convince people of your point, don't attack what they like. You talk about sexuality as if it were a bad thing, and in my mind, that puts a stigma on your point of view, because I've already stopped taking it seriously. You have to embrace human nature for what it is and understand that before you try to convince other humans of your ideas, and slandering perfectly natural (and to me, perfectly acceptable) tendancies is a really bad way to do that.

Okay line by line:

'Prayer can be taken out of public places at one persons request, but cursing can't

One nation under God'

Prayer has not been banned from public places- organized prayer has been banned from government institutions (i.e., public schools) because being forced into Christian prayer infringes on the rights of people belonging to other religions.

'The Bible is constantly changed to abide by peoples rules and not vice versa

One nation under God'

It is? I don't really know- but I've never heard of it being done? Could you elaborate?

'Our Holy one can't be mentioned by name in the media, but satan, devil, and lucifer can

One nation under God'

Yes he can. See above. Also, do you know how many flippin Jesus commercials and church advertisements I see on a daily basis? A lot more that Satan promotions.

'We can't pray publically in God's name, but we can swear as much as we want and use his name in vain

One nation under God'

See above- you can pray publicly, you just can't organize prayer in government institutions.
I do think this is the strongest point of your poem, but you should aim it more at the hypocrisy of people who take God's name in Vain and don't ever pray to him.

'Sexuality and drugs are shown on every channel on T.V., everyday, every half hour. But any shows about God are saved for Sunday

One nation under God'

In addition to what I said earlier- you sound like you are promoting censorship- unless the FCC or whoever regulates television finds the content obscene people have every right to show it. Some shows are dealing with these problems, and informing people of dangers, or telling a story to present a moral dillemma (and unfortunately, in the case of the sit-com, usually a sappy predictable 'it's all okay' ending) which is better than leaving the suburbian American public in the dark about what their kids are probably doing behind their backs.

'God and his word have been altered and variated so many times so that we may be pleased with him. No one changes their lives so that he will be pleased with us

One nation under God?'

I really don't understand this conclusion- are you saying we should all have the same basic understanding of God and what he means (whoever's interpretation that would be) and we should all abide by it in the same manner? Should everybody be Christian? Are you out to convert the nation? And what alterations are you talking about, anyway? The division into different denominations of Christianity? The freedom some audacious people take to have their own ideas about what God is and how the issue of spirituality should be dealt with?

Overall I found this poem highly offensive. Your techniques of persuasion are poorly thought out and poorly executed. If you honestly want to make a point and a difference get off your "i'm better than you and know more about God that all those people" high horse and get real. You cannot assume that your beliefs are right, or that anybody else should be humble enough below you to accept your definition of God's word. I'm sorry if I'm blowing this out of proportion (and I probably am) or being overly harsh, but this poem really evoked very strong feelings of defiance and irritation in me.

On a technical note: Your repeated lines of 'One nation under God' are weak, simply because it was tacked on to the Pledge during the religious revival of the 50's (I think) and not even an original part of the Pledge. It's tenure there has been under debate for a while, and it seems to have a shaky foothold. Try something a little more concrete when using repitition.

everything's fine.

DYME
Member
since 2000-07-29
Posts 104
Texas
6 posted 2001-06-23 10:42 PM


It is nice that you did share that with me. After all I did ask for input. But Now you are making it seem as if I have to look at things your point of view and change my poem around to better suit your belief. Most poets write from their point of view, not everyone elses. I am not trying to pursuade or force them to change their way of thinking. I was just stating what I believe, what I have seen. If I have offended you, sorry. It was not intended to offend anyone. I was asking for input on how to make the poem sound better, not how to change my way of thinking and writing so that I will be in agreement with the majority of the world. Notice I say constructive, not destructive criticism. I thank you for your input again.

No weapon formed against me shall prosper... ISAIAH 54:17

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
7 posted 2001-06-24 12:31 PM


Well, this is a dilemma. We have no idea what you mean by 'destructive'. I also find it difficult to back up much of what you're saying here so to my mind what Hush is saying is quite productive.

Nobody is telling you that you can't feel and see that God and religion are somehow being relegated to a minority position in America, but the language used here is not convincing and if it's not convincing (except perhaps to those already convinced) it's probably not going to be a strong poem.

Example:

The majority of American people are starving and so we must have a socialist revolution.

response: Have you looked at the current rates in obesity? Have you walked down a public mall recently? Have you heard about the famine in North Korea?

counter-response: I have a right to my point of view.

This goes nowhere because it doesn't, even momentarily, 'suspend disbelief' in the reader.

What you might want to do is take the whole point and look at it from a personal point of view, show what you see, specific media shows, problems in public places and so forth -- give us the actual anecdotal events that trigger the generalizations you've put forth.

I'm not talking about vague ideas here, tell us what happened right down to the sweat that tickled down your cheek from frustration.

This avoids a lot of the problems that Hush has pointed out and might make it for a very interesting piece.

Spiritual poems, like love poems, are extremely difficult to do well. Not only do people have a tendency to stay abstract, you have the finest poems in the English language for comparison.

And, like love poems, you have a built in audience that will shower praise based on content alone, not on aesthetic value. You've set quite a task for yourself.

Brad

  

PoemCrazy
Member
since 2000-11-30
Posts 159

8 posted 2001-06-24 08:47 PM


Hi!

i don't reply to many poems, because i read them as "poems," which are the authors' thoughts, whether i agree or not.

but this is a neat one (or i'm crazy, who knows?)  anyway, here goes:

you repeat this phrase seven times:
"One Nation Under God"
clever device - compare to the seven days of "creation" in the bible.  

and curiously, no seventh "commentary".
is this intentional? (i.e. REST on the last day)...tom

Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA
9 posted 2001-06-25 10:27 AM


I think Hush made some valid points. But I also think they were at least as "preachy" as the original poem and at least as "offensive." The same could have been said more tactfully. Listen to Brad's suggestions. Although not as specific, I think they are more useful. I don't think it does a lot of good to tell a writer specifically how to write a poem but to give the kind of aesthetic suggestions Brad gave could be very helpful.

JMHO,

Pete

Never express yourself more clearly than you can think - Niels Bohr

DYME
Member
since 2000-07-29
Posts 104
Texas
10 posted 2001-06-25 11:27 AM


I thank Brad because his suggestinons were more helpful than crushing. He is trying to show me how to keep my whole idea but to make it more clear. As to what Hush is saying sounds more like she thinks I should be trying to spare other peoples feelings about the topic other than writing what I feel. I thought that was the whole idea of poetry any way, to write about how you feel. But I do thank the rest of you for your positive words also.

No weapon formed against me shall prosper... ISAIAH 54:17

hush
Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653
Ohio, USA
11 posted 2001-06-25 05:07 PM


Once again, sorry if I came off as being too harsh. I was just trying to say that the points made should at least be truthful and well-informed, and I thought the poem sounded one-sided. I was not trying to tell anyone how to write a poem- (on a side note, isn't that what people do in their responses when they actually re-write the poem for the person and say here, try this?)

Dyme, I don't think you should try to spare other people's feelings. (If I felt that way, I probably wouldn't have replied as heatedly as I did.) But tact has never been one of my virtues. So write the poem the way you think you should, but at least make sure your facts adhere to reality before making a statemnet- or be prepared for adverse reactions to it.

everything's fine.

DYME
Member
since 2000-07-29
Posts 104
Texas
12 posted 2001-06-26 01:24 PM


I accept your apology. And maybe I should look at the facts a little more. I understand that you were a little heated (I get that way a lot!!) but that's o.k. you have a right to comment on how you felt. After all, that is what the forum is for. Thanks again.

No weapon formed against me shall prosper... ISAIAH 54:17

scout
Member
since 2001-06-16
Posts 175
no place owns me
13 posted 2001-06-26 01:57 PM


Yeah people(who are Christian) cut and paste what they want out of the Bible.  Personally I don't see the poem as telling everyone to be Christian.  What I see is someone showing how the American Government are hypocrites.  How can they call themselves "One Nation under God"?  i can say a lot but I don't want to start a war, they just make me sick, wake me when New Jeresalum arrives, that will show them One Nation Under God.  That is what I see in this poem...

xscoutx
"Son of man with one blow I am about to take away from you the delight of your eyes. Yet do not lament or weep or shed any tears." - Ez. 24:1

DYME
Member
since 2000-07-29
Posts 104
Texas
14 posted 2001-06-26 02:15 PM


You are right Scout. You hit it right on the head. Thank You.

No weapon formed against me shall prosper... ISAIAH 54:17

brian madden
Member Elite
since 2000-05-06
Posts 4374
ireland
15 posted 2001-06-26 02:55 PM


DYME,

first of all I think that you are pushing the issue. In fact your poem sounds some what like propaganda. I can understand where you are coming from, people losing sight of their selves their centre, becoming tainted but sexuality is not dirty. It is a need in all of us, without the human race would not exist. I was raised a christain but it because of views that I felt were ranted imposed and bias that I abandoned religion but not spirituality.

This is not meant as a personal attack on you, but I think you need to get together a well thought out arguement to support your views, look at both sides please, because to speak in purely black and white terms means that you are selling your talents short.

"Build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life". Terry Pratchett

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
16 posted 2001-06-26 04:16 PM


So you're advocating an American theocracy?

Well, I still think the ideas might be better placed in another forum as that's what post people seem interesting in dicussing. However, I also believe that if a poem triggers discussion, any kind of polite discussion, that this is a forum for that to.

I always thought it was strange that a poem can cause emotion and then someone would come in and say, hey, you're not talking about the poetry.

What exactly is 'the poetry'?
Brad

jbouder
Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash
17 posted 2001-06-26 10:02 PM


Dyme:

Too vague.  Too abstract.  Misses the mark a bit (in my opinion).

I am well aware of the litigation surrounding the establishment clause of the U.S. Constitution and how, in my opinion, it has been distorted by doctrines such as the Lemon Test to remove the discussion of religion (particularly Christianity) from the public arena and I can appreciate your zeal.  But even though you've pointed out a sort of hypocracy being practice by a nation that includes "One nation under God" in its Pledge of Allegiance (a phrase added in the 20th century, btw), I don't believe that you've provided a reasonable alternative.

quote:
The Bible is constantly changed to abide by peoples rules and not vice versa


I can't think of an Evangelical Movement that isn't as guilty of this practice as your average pagan.  Eisogesis is not the sole practice of liberal theologians, you know.  

I suppose what bothers me most about the poem (bearing in mind that I am a Christian myself) you seem to have confused Law and Gospel.

quote:
God and his word have been altered and variated so many times so that we may be pleased with him. No one changes their lives so that he will be pleased with us


What parts of the Bible have to be altered in order to communicate the notion that changing our lives will please God?  "There is not one who is righteous, no not one", "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God", "We are saved by grace alone through faith, not by [good] works lest any man should boast". From my perspective, you have confused works and grace and failed to recognize the Biblical doctrine of imputed righteousness.

I apologize if some of this seemed harsh but I honestly believe this piece has several internal flaws that dampen the message.

Jim

[This message has been edited by jbouder (edited 06-26-2001).]

Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704

18 posted 2001-06-26 10:26 PM


'The poetry' is surely comprised of the 'poetic techniques, devices and rhetorics'...devoid of the subject matter? Well...my English proffessors might say so anyway...

Now, as to this poem DYME...I have to agree with Brian on this...black and white outlooks can hamper how convincing your thoughts sound...you have to take into account you're going to be read...and the people who read you will have thoughts of their own...if you slam them - it's likely they won't want to read you anymore. Simple. Controversy is different to out and out lecturing...

You have some interesting thoughts here - if a little flawed...if you can soften the finality of them, perhaps show them more as reflections rather than blanket statements of truth it will work better I think...

K


I am a refugee of logic...insisting
on unlikely land with every step.

[This message has been edited by Severn (edited 06-26-2001).]

Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA
19 posted 2001-06-27 01:53 PM


Closed at author's request.

Pete

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