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coyote
Senior Member
since 2001-03-17
Posts 1077


0 posted 2001-05-12 12:51 PM



"lost temple"

in the garden of our newness
we were ingenuous

shameless lambs
fit for sacred slaughter
fattened on shoots of falsehood  

eyes wide open

bleating out our innocence
beneath the reaper's scythe

across the harvest of seasons
through wastelands of atonement
blistered in bewilderment
shunning the holy ground
on this pilgrimage
to pain
upon the sands of Ozymandias
from the stones
of your resentment
I have built a lost temple
corrupted by blame

like Samson of old
bereft of strength
overwhelmed with love
hanging in chains of blindness
striped by lashes of fault
fashioned from my roots

between these pillars
whereupon our temple stands
I shall strain in anguish
putting asunder the covenant
of that foundation
which imprisons you

for in the twilight of my sacrifice
at the altar of your silence
I am denied the flame
of your eternal love
  

"The rose, like the cactus flower, protects herself with thorns. We however, impale ourselves on their beauty."
coyote

© Copyright 2001 coyote - All Rights Reserved
Marq
Member
since 1999-10-18
Posts 222

1 posted 2001-05-12 06:47 PM


I like this!  Job well done!
Kurt Rhys
Junior Member
since 2001-05-08
Posts 23

2 posted 2001-05-12 07:29 PM


Flows so efforlessly that one never notices the absence of rime nor notices the unobtrusive rivets of alliteration that hold this faultless effort together. Bravo, blessed of the Muse!
coyote
Senior Member
since 2001-03-17
Posts 1077

3 posted 2001-05-12 08:01 PM


Thanks so much, Marq and Kurt.
Your kind appraisals are appreciated.
Billy  

"The rose, like the cactus flower, protects herself with thorns. We however, impale ourselves on their beauty."
coyote

roxane
Senior Member
since 1999-09-02
Posts 505
us
4 posted 2001-05-13 09:24 PM


coyote-
i like the repeating "sacrifice" theme throughout, but i don't understand the transition from lambs to samson.  the imagery in here is really great, very enjoyable piece.

coyote
Senior Member
since 2001-03-17
Posts 1077

5 posted 2001-05-14 12:20 PM


Thanks, Roxane.
I appreciate your comments.
The transition is one of a lifespan/eternity from the beginning/garden where we are innocent lambs led to the slaughter, by the unforseen harsh realities encountered in living our lives(harvest of seasons), and the eventual paying of dues/sacrifice, which builds a "lost temple" of love and marital significance. Yet for his own reasons, like Samson, the protagonist elects to put the temple asunder, by unseating its pillars and crashing it down upon himself in a suicidal finale. Sort of a reversal of the "if you build it, they will come" scenario. From the innocence of lambs, through the acquisition of sin obtained by a lifetime of living in the world, into a fateful act of self-destructive nature. Hardly a smooth transition, but I hope a plausible one, nonetheless.      

"The rose, like the cactus flower, protects herself with thorns. We however, impale ourselves on their beauty."
coyote

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
6 posted 2001-05-15 12:22 PM


I don't mind the Biblical references so much as the fact that I think you can be more subtle with them. Your style seems intent on a kind archaic, 'profound' approach which actually distances the reader in a way I don't think you want. That last line -- come on, you can do better than that. You've structured the poem as a continual increasing of tension but then you end with a line that, well, is not exactly original in poetry, is it?

"lost temple"

in the garden of our newness

--as far as I can tell, a useless juxtaposition. It wouldn't be so bad if you expanded on the idea a bit -- give us a picture.

we were ingenuous

--I like this and I like the use of sounds here, just wish you had a stronger first line or even a few more.

shameless lambs
fit for sacred slaughter
fattened on shoots of falsehood

--again, I don't think you need to bludgeon us with religious metaphors. Try to surprise the reader with reversal, sudden changes or whatnot. Here, I'm already getting bored. Also, be weary of 'gardens of newness' and 'shoots of falsehood' -- these are relatively common ways of combining an abstract idea with a concrete image. Stick with the concrete and let the abstractions take care of themselves.
  
eyes wide open

--sorry, you made me think of the movie. Again, don't let this satisfy you, play with the images more (even the movie did that).


bleating out our innocence
beneath the reaper's scythe

--hyperbolic and melodramatic -- I think you're stuck in the Biblical thing too much (did I already say that  )

across the harvest of seasons

--already been done.

through wastelands of atonement

--already been done. Curious if you don't fine the use of continual prepostions here and the use of verbs later to begin lines the least bit tedious? I think I understand what you're trying to do (create a tension, a putting off of the climax) but if you do it more subtly, I think you'll create a much stronger effect.

blistered in bewilderment
shunning the holy ground
on this pilgrimage
to pain

--How does this fit with 'wastelands of atonement' -- shouldn't it be pilgrimage of pain? Regardless, I still haven't really seen the wasteland, the pilgrim, or feel the pilgrimage. Again (Boy, and I complain to people that they're repetitious) don't let the allusions control the poem. Allusion should enhance, not determine a poem.

upon the sands of Ozymandias
from the stones
of your resentment
I have built a lost temple
corrupted by blame

--'stones of your resentment' -- see above. Actually, you might want to go back to the Shelley poem and try to see why that one works and this one falls flat (actually, the Shelley poem is too simplistic to my mind as well but it does sound nice, doesn't it?)

like Samson of old

--as opposed to Samson, the new?

bereft of strength
overwhelmed with love
hanging in chains of blindness

--'chains of blindness'. Do you see how this construction all too easily takes over a poem?
striped by lashes of fault
fashioned from my roots

--need to expand this.

between these pillars
whereupon our temple stands
I shall strain in anguish
putting asunder the covenant
of that foundation
which imprisons you

--the speaker has now gone fully into the role of Biblical hero. Am I missing some irony somewhere?

for in the twilight of my sacrifice
at the altar of your silence
I am denied the flame
of your eternal love

--plop, thud, splat. You build and build to end with telling me about someone else's eternal love. Show me what you're missing, don't expect me to 'feel' the feeling of the speaker by this line.

You know, you might try concentrating on one aspect here, one stanza and seeing how far you can take it. That might be interesting. As it is, I think you've tried to take on more than the structure of the poem will allow.

Just an opinion,
Brad
  

coyote
Senior Member
since 2001-03-17
Posts 1077

7 posted 2001-05-15 07:52 PM


Honestly, thanks for your "opinion", Brad.

But the bottom line is, either you like the poem or you don't, and I'm getting the definite impression that you don't like this one.

As for your "Critical Analysis", I simply find it "pompous" and more critical than analytical.
However, I did pull up one of your "best efforts" to return the "compliment".  

I can only assume that you must be having a really bad day. You know something? When I get sexually frustrated, I try writing about it in "religious metaphor". lol  


"The rose, like the cactus flower, protects herself with thorns. We however, impale ourselves on their beauty."
coyote



[This message has been edited by coyote (edited 05-15-2001).]

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
8 posted 2001-05-16 02:46 AM


On the contrary, the last thing you should be worried about is the 'bottom line' (a monetary metaphor -- how very capitalist of you  ).

Liking or disliking the poem gives you little to work with -- either you have a momentary sense of validation (gee, a stranger likes what I wrote) or a momentary sense of disapointment that often leads to defense mechanisms (Who cares what this guy thinks. He doesn't know me.).I've addressed the overall structure of the poem, your use of allusions, certain problems with repetition in the internal structure, and, of course, that last line. How can you think about this? I can think of at least four possibilities:

1. Have I addressed any doubts, insecurites that you may have had before posting the poem? Have I helped to answer, one way or the other, some of those doubts and insecurities.

2. Have I addressed anything that you hadn't considered before posting the poem? Have I shown you a way of looking at this poem that you hadn't seen before? Can this help you in terms of your goals in a rewrite of this one of in the writing of the next poem?

3. You can ignore me.  

4. You can mistake my 'critical but not analytical enough' attitude as the Gospel truth and decide to never write again.  

Obviously, three and four go against the goals and principles of this forum. The moment you show a poem to someone else, it becomes a social act and one would think that, as a result, a detailed discussion of the poem might help all of us to understand how other people read and, at the same time, help us to improve our own writing (if improve bothers you, how about expand?)

Anything less is boring, limiting, and ultimately a straitjacket to any writer who truly wants to improve.

None of this means I'm right, it means we should discuss the poem, not rely on the often rather facile 'bottom line'.

As far as pompous is concerned, check out Sven's thread in the lounge on cliche. I'm in good company in being labeled with that term.  

As far as sexual frustration is concerned, what can I say?  My wife had a baby a little over a month ago and is still recuperating. You decide.  

Brad

Joricho
Member
since 2001-05-06
Posts 56
Australia
9 posted 2001-05-16 06:45 AM


peace, boys!
However, I have to say that while I appreciated the wide-ranging allusions, I am also fairly obsessive about simplicity, and I felt as though this poem almost drowned its point in the swamp of metaphor and adjective. There are some GREAT lines here, but I felt I had to go back and sift them out. Could I suggest that you leave out the switch to Ozymandias in the middle, and also (as I'm opposed to alliteration in general!) the "blistered in bewilderment". I LIKE your idea, but I'd love to hear it come through more clearly.
Jo

Many waters cannot quench love,
nor will rivers overflow it.
If a man were to give the riches of his house for love,
it would be utterly despised

YeshuJah Malikk
Member
since 2000-06-29
Posts 263

10 posted 2001-05-16 09:23 AM


coyote, this poem is packed with cliches and common place alliterations that would, in lots of other instances ring obscene.  But I found this instance to be an exception, for it struggles with an old age torment in a fashion reminiscent of some of the best poetic prose pieces ever written.  I enjoyed it much.

[This message has been edited by YeshuJah Malikk (edited 05-16-2001).]

jenni
Member
since 1999-09-11
Posts 478
Washington D.C.
11 posted 2001-05-17 02:39 AM


hey there, coyote--

sorry, i pretty much have to agree with brad and joricho on this piece.  "Stick with the concrete and let the abstractions take care of themselves," brad says, and he's right.  (that's exactly shelley's approach in ozy-man, btw.)  show us those "unforseen harsh realities encountered in living our lives", make the samson parallel, but show us what this particular speaker's "fateful act of self-destructive nature" was; it wasn't actually pulling down a temple, but something LIKE that.  show us!  your readers are curious!  i bet, if you get it right (and i think you can, you're a pretty good writer), the actual story will be every bit as dramatic as the biblical one.  

alternatively, another approach to take would be to step fully into the allegory, and make it the literal story.  thomas hardy did this in a poem called "the church builder", which actually is startlingly similar to yours.  the speaker in hardy's poem is a man who gives his all to his God and his faith, only to believe himself forsaken by God and be reckoned a blind fool by all those around him in his society, to a sad, tragic ending.  the conceit of the poem, what makes it "work", is that hardy shows the man literally building an actual church, squaring the foundation stones and carving the decorative elements himself, calling in stained-glass workers etc., for the details, borrowing money, selling family heirlooms and even his fields, all sorts of stuff, to pay for it all.  the man finishes the church and is overjoyed, but then he sees that his home has gone to waste, his sons have turned against him for spending them into poverty, and the church itself makes not one difference to the community; people sneer and laugh at his faith, and go on sinning as before.  it ends with the man hanging himself from a huge truss beam across the nave.  at every step of the way, though, hardy grounds the piece in realism, and makes it so much more than a simple allegory.

sorry to ramble on so long, but i love that poem, lol, and i thought you might find hardy's approach interesting.  

ok, i'll shut up now, lol.

jenni

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