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Joyce Johnson
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0 posted 2001-03-25 11:53 AM


The dawn of love, so magical and new,
Two bodies set aflame with burning kiss.
Enchanted world, and only for the two.
No other pair has ever loved like this.
Young love a wonder while its passions last,
Must change in form if love's to long endure.
Too soon the thrill of love once new, is past.
It should condense to essence now, more pure.
At times love embers start a blazing flame;
Soon cooling down to just a lovely glow.
No need for these to play a youthful game;
Their dreams fulfilled as both of them now know.
For though the young and foolish long for fire;
The glowing embers, wiser hearts desire.

Joyce 3/25/2001

[This message has been edited by Joyce Johnson (edited 03-26-2001).]

© Copyright 2001 Joyce I Johnson - All Rights Reserved
Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA
1 posted 2001-03-26 11:34 AM


Hi Joyce,

You have touched on an ageless subject. Saddly, we are unable to understand it while still young enough to experience it and it is beyond our reach when mature enough to appreciate it.

Do I assume correctly that this is the sonnet you referred to in my thread? I'll try to get back later for more review but right now I need to earn my living.

Pete

Imagination is more important than knowledge
Albert Einstein

Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA
2 posted 2001-03-26 06:16 PM


OK, I finally got back. You're right, for the most part you have the proper syllable count but there are still some metric problems. Actually, I don't like to count syllables but think, instead, in terms of feet. Get those right and an occasional extra or missing syllable is not really noticed. In fact, it often enhances as it may tend to break what might otherwise be a little monotonous.

At the risk of sounding like I know more than I actually do, I would like to scan your poem to see where the stresses and potential problems might lie.

The DAWN / of LOVE, / so MAG-/i-CAL and NEW,
Two BOD-/ies SET / a-FLAME / with EACH / SWEET KISS.
En-CHAN-/ted WORLD, / and ON-/ly FOR / the TWO.
NEV-er be-/FORE was / THERE such / LOVE as / THIS.
Young LOVE / so WON-/der-ful / WHILE it doth / LAST,
Must CHANGE / its FORM / if it is / to en-DURE.
The THRILL / of that / FIRST LOVE / LIES in / the PAST.
It SHOULD / con-DENSE / to ES-/sence NOW, more PURE.
SOME-times love / EM-bers can / BURST into / FLAME;
Soon COOL-/ing DOWN / to JUST / a LOVE-/ly GLOW.
No NEED / for THESE / to PLAY / a YOUTH-/ful GAME;
Their DREAMS / ful-FILLED / as BOTH / of THEM / now KNOW.
ON-ly the / IM-ma-ture / LONG for the / FIRE;
When GLOW-/ing EM-/bers should / BE the de-/SIRE.

Now before you get excited, I know that the above is not accurate. And I know that it can be read much closer to IP than I have indicated. My interpretation is based on how I would read the words and lines if I didn't know it was a poem. To read it as IP requires many unnatural stressed and unstressed syllables. IMHO a poem should read naturally where one does not have to force the meter to work. It should just flow off the tongue and leave a good taste as it does. The reader should be left wondering "Was that really a poem? It sounded and felt like one but where did the poet use those special poetic tricks to make it so?"

I think you can help yourself by just reading you poem as naturally as possible. If it then falls into IP without having to strain, it is most likely right. If not, then more work is needed.

Fortunately, once you kind of get the hang of it, meter is probably one of the easiest things to fix. For example, look at your L4

"Never before was there such love as this."

which I had a problem with above. Try a simple rewording, something like:

Not once before was there such love as this.

I don't necessarily suggest that as the final version but thinking along those lines will allow you to find the ultimate solution.

Now try you hand at some of those other lines which might seem a bit awkward or rough. Be wary of forcing the reader to stress many little or relatively unimportant words, such as is, if, that, etc, unless the stress occurs naturally. I am sure you will catch on quickly.

While I'm here though, I do have two other points to make. In L5 you use doth. That word may sound poetic but what it really is is archaic. You have otherwise maintained modern language. Using an archaic word almost blatantly points out that you either thought it sounded poetic (a bad thing) or that you needed it for the rhyme or meter (even worse). Now you could use does, which is the proper current replacement, but that still seems a bit lazy. I understand you need a fill here and you need some grammatically to. You could consider might in place of doth. I think it conveys the same idea but without sounding so trite.

The final point is a personal preference. I just don't like blank lines imbedded in a sonnet. Some may disagree but to me it seems that the author (or printer) was trying to let me know that it is a sonnet. I don't need that. I recognize the form almost by its size and shape. I don't even like the idea of indenting the closing couplet, for the exact same reason.

OK, this is, of course, JMHO. So feel perfectly free to ignore or blast away at any of it you don't agree with.

Thanks,
Pete

Joyce Johnson
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3 posted 2001-03-26 07:23 PM


You picked up on the same lines that I was having trouble with. Do you mean by blank line the space between the eight and the six lines? I am sorry, I was followinhg some examples of other poets. This is all very new to me. I have been writing poetry just two years and at a very late age, so I am glad for your efforts in advising me. I placed the last one that you critiqued for me in the open class and had some favorable comments. Thank you for all of your advice. Is it okay if I come back with it when I work it over? Joyce
Joyce Johnson
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4 posted 2001-03-26 11:09 PM


I think I have a better sonnet now. Hope you agree. thank you, again. Joyce
Not A Poet
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since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA
5 posted 2001-03-27 10:13 AM


Hi again,

In reading your revision, I can't find a single speed bump or stumbling line. The meter seems flawless. You do catch on quickly.

Second point, what you wrote and how you formatted it is notheing to be "sorry" for. I simply said that I prefer to have no special spacing or other formatting in a sonnet. You can do it if you want.

Now that the major problems are fixed, I have a couple of punctuation pointers to offer. Again I stress that I am no expert so this is just one uneducated opinion. The main thing I see is too many periods or full stops and even too many or misplaced semicolons. Then there are a couple of comma errors. I hope I may reprint your poem here in the manner I would likely punctuate it.

quote:

The dawn of love, so magical and new,
Two bodies set aflame with burning kiss,
Enchanted world, and only for the two,
No other pair has ever loved like this.
Young love, a wonder while its passions last,
Must change in form if love's to long endure,
Too soon the thrill of love, once new, is past,
It should condense to essence now, more pure.
At times love's embers start a blazing flame,
Soon cooling down to just a lovely glow,
No need for these to play a youthful game,
Their dreams fulfilled as both of them now know.
For though the young and foolish long for fire,
The glowing embers, wiser hearts desire.



Well, that's my take on it. I added a couple of commas where you had parenthetical elements. These must always be set of on both sides if at all. And you had a semicolon or two which needed to be commas to avoid creating fragments. I then changed some of your periods to semicolons but later decided that was still too much. So, I changed them to commas. While some of these are not grammatically correct, I think poetic license allows for some of that, particularly using the comma where a period or semicolon is actually called for. The comma doesn't break the thought nearly as much as the other marks do, thus allowing the flow to continue to the desired end.

Also notice that I changed love to love's in L9. If I understand your intent, that seems a more accurate statement.

Well Joyce, I hope I haven't taken too many liberties with your work here. I really enjoy this sonnet and I have enjoyed discussing it with you very much. This has been a great exercise for me and I hope it has been worthwhile for you too.

Thanks,
Pete

Joyce Johnson
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Rara Avis
since 2001-03-10
Posts 9912
Washington State
6 posted 2001-03-27 11:51 AM


Wonderful Pete. thank you.

I was afraid that with all of the changes the poem would lose its meaning, but its perfect. Or at least as perfect as any poem of mine has ever been. I do have trouble withsemicolons and commas and was following advice of another poet who said I used commas where I should have used semicolons. i like the idea of commas better too to keep the flow going. Thanks again. Yes, I learned a lot. I'll leave you alone for awhile now and post my poem somewhere. Joyce

roxane
Senior Member
since 1999-09-02
Posts 505
us
7 posted 2001-03-29 11:16 PM


joyce-
i just read your sonnet and the replies you and pete have been exchanging concerning the mechanics of it.  it takes a very dedicated poet to work through the rough spots in her poem like this.  the only thing i can offer is my take on the content.
it's obvious from your mastery of language that you have skill.  the thing that i find unsettling is the metaphor.  love as fire.  your poem tells a lot of age old truths.  the only problem with that is that the reader tends to know what you are going to say next.  what do you have to offer to this?  was there ever a time where love made you wiser, braver, stronger in your youth?  maybe you are still young, and you want to talk about your love transcending the immaturity of age.  how does love lead us through our philosophical adolescence?  
the only thing i can offer you is to ask you to put more of yourself into this poem.  it's very well-written, and it makes a lot of great points, but i for one would like to feel your personality come through in it.  i know that can be painfully difficult with a sonnet, when you feel bound by iambs and structure, couplets and the overall feeling that it must sound archaic.  i really think this poem reflects a great deal of talent on your part, and believe me, i am simply a humble person who pretends to write poems, who can only offer you the barest minimum of knowledge about it.  i do know that poems should make people feel, and the best way to make someone feel is to feel it yourself, pour that out into your writing.
at least in another poem, if not this one.
i look forward to your next entry.

Irish Rose
Member Patricius
since 2000-04-06
Posts 10263

8 posted 2001-03-31 03:14 PM


The dawn/. of love/., so mag./ical./ and new,.
love breaks /the dawn /in mag/ic and/ begin/nings/

make it more of a complete sentence with more nouns and verbs.

Two bod/.ies set./ aflame ./with burn./ing kiss..
Young coup/le find /your spark /that kis/ses burn

again lose the modifier as much as you can.

Enchant./ed world,./ and on./ly for/. the two./.
this world/ enchants/ a place /for on/ly two

No oth./er pair/ .has ev./er loved .like /this./.
No oth/ers love/  will ev/er love /like this (future tense is better)

Young love/. a won/.der while /.its pas/.sions last./,
Love is a/ wonder while/ the passion/ lasts/ trochee, trochee, iamb, mono variation

Must change/ .in form /.if love's/. to long ./endure./
     anapest               anapest        anapest        mono  (added anapest for variation)
And it chan/ges i in the form /and shall en/dure

.Too soon /the thrill /of love /once new, /is past./

too soon love's thrill is gone and sadly past


It should /condense/ to es/sence now,/ more pure/.
When once condensed, it's essence now, more pure.    

At times /love em/bers start/ a blaz/ing flame;/
The ember died amid a blazing flame

Soon coo/ling down /to just/ a lov/ely glow./
and cooled enough for just an afterglow

No need /for these/ to play /a youthf/ul game/;
There is no need for such a youthful game

Their dreams/ fulfilled /as both /of them /now know./
For dreams of one another be fulfilled

For though /the young/ and fool/sh long /for fire;/
      
The young and the foolish hearts have longed for fire


The glow/ing em/bers, wi/ser hearts/ desire.
for embers glow as h eart's desire is wise.


Yours was straight iamb verse which is fine, but I would break up the monotony a bit and lose many of the modifiers.  Let the nouns and verbs carry the piece.
Thanks for reading my critique and remember it's the poem, not the poets
I critique and I too write and write and revise and revise and more revision!

My honest opinion, I think you have a dynamite sonnet here, just needs more work and verbage.


Kathleen Blake

"When red-haired girls scamper like roses over the rain-green grass,
and the sun drips honey."
Laurie Lee




[This message has been edited by Irish Rose (edited 03-31-2001).]

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