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A Saving Grace
| Critical Analysis #1 |
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A Saving Grace |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart 
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A Saving Grace in distance past, in the long of ago the summer sun came to kiss, see grow purple grape upon the vine entwine beautifully and fully so thick the harvest grape did grow but came the night upon which frost in the night of fall harvest grape to be lost to all came the great sound of thunder's gun came on the run all valley children came to save the grape of wise seeking sunrise seeking warmth of sun hours before it would come smoke pots burned saw heat rise skyward then the miracle came the miracle was heard in the soft, soft wing of butterfly grace in gossamer all took wing slowly, slowly offering the rise and fall of soft wing spread to bring the warmth of smoke pot heat down to the low of the grape root feet this, then the action of sweet love graced by butterfly wings the grove of grape, saved by grace softened by smiles of angels face cross a cloud's great landscape come with me and tarry here and climb the cloud hear grace sing clear Karilea If I whisper, will you listen?... I would rather be silent and write, than speak loudly and be bound. KRJ |
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| © Copyright 2000 Karilea Rilling Jungel - All Rights Reserved | |||
Marsha
since 2000-07-10
Posts 7423Maidstone Kent England |
Kari, I couldn't bear to see this with no replies. You said once if you posted here, would I follow, well I have. So I'm waving my little flag of support, and leading the cheering that will break out any second. Can you hear it. You can good. An excellant poem, it has grace, style, elegance, a beautiful form and is displayed wonderfully. Altogether a wonderful poem, written perfectly. Take care Majestic Marsha (Your applause section.  ) Take back the hope you gave,- I claim Only a memory of the same Robert Browning |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
This is an amazing "critique" little one...not at all as harsh as was expected...LOL... now, is there anything in it that can be salvaged? Still smiling...{~,^}...thank you... Karilea If I whisper, will you listen?... I would rather be silent and write, than speak loudly and be bound. KRJ |
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Marsha
since 2000-07-10
Posts 7423Maidstone Kent England |
Kari, I've never been fond of the words critical analysis, there is something unwholesome about them both. Critical, reminds me far too much of I T U or H D U, both places that may be sparkling clean but there's little there to raise hopes. And Analysis, who on this earth can say this is wrong and this is right. Our English Lit mistress used to say that Shakespear was considered by his contemporaries a lousy writer. I don't know if she was telling the truth, but it always made us feel better. And I actually adore your writing it is always wonderful, every single time. Take care Majestic Marsha  (And you are far braver than I am I wouldn't put any of my poetry here. Not now and I don't think ever. )< !signature-->Take back the hope you gave,- I claim Only a memory of the same Robert Browning [This message has been edited by Marsha (edited 11-24-2000).] |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Karilea, The presentation and the images are presented very gracefully and beautifully here. However, though most of the poem is beautifully written, I stumbled over the meter in a few places, finding it a bit uneven. I think that if you work with it a bit more, you will find a way to even out the rhythm, so the poem reads as beautifully as the images shine. Just one opinion... Kris "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." ~ Albert Einstein |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Kris, as I can only read this in my own mind's eye at this time as more of a rhyming story, would you mind pulling out the uneven areas that make you stumble? You know how it is when one has blinders on... and I would appreciate your time. Thank you. Karilea If I whisper, will you listen?... I would rather be silent and write, than speak loudly and be bound. KRJ |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
Ok ok .. I give in ....this is a conspiracy right? Marsha tell me you’re doing this deliberately please? (I’m only half kiddin’)... I don’t want to be unkind but I’m just a little surprised (to say the least) by some parts of this thread. “Beautiful form” - “displayed wonderfully” - “written perfectly” - “unwholesome”...... geez Marsha you sure know how to provoke a response. But first Karilea: I rather assume from your post on brad’s thread and your subsequent comments on others’ poems and indeed your response to kris in this thread that you are genuinely interested in receiving honest feedback from other people on your poem, and furthermore because you post to a message board you are not simply writing “for yourself”. On the assumption that that is true, have you ever stopped to ask yourself WHY you want that feedback? There could be several reasons, for instance: It could simply be that you want to hear other people say that your poetry is wonderful and perfect, or It could be that you want to help other people by writing; try and give them knowledge and new insight, or Maybe you simply want to entertain to amuse or to engender strong emotion of one kind or another in many people If the first is the case then frankly you should not be posting in CA. People who for one reason or another will never risk hurting or upsetting you can always be relied on to praise even the worst poetry and to be honest i have absolutely no problem with that at all, except, and it is a big except, where it happens in CA. In the latter two instances cited above the target audience becomes important. So for instance if you are writing for a particular audience such as a group of friends then perhaps you are not so concerned about refining your skill and writing what might more generally be perceived as “good” poetry. But on the assumption that you wish your poetry to appeal to as wide an audience as possible (maybe in different ways) then some degree of objectivity and, dared i say it, analysis needs to be brought to bear however “unpoetic” this might at first sight appear. Which brings me to Marsha’s excellent point: quote: correct Marsha ...absolutely nobody at all...... there is in fact an, admittedly contentious, maxim flying around hereabouts to the effect that the reader is always right. In other words interpretation is the prerogative of the reader and accordingly each and every interpretation is valid. I think you misunderstand the way in which this forum operates if you believe that anybody here is saying that they are “right” and others are “wrong” - we emphatically aren’t - we merely offer our honest and thought-out opinions about poetry that we read. And why do we do this? Well, simple really, we hope to stimulate our own thinking processes and thereby write better ourselves while at the same time trying to assist the writer under discussion to write better. This is why Brad and Jim try to encourage feedback and discussion in threads - as Brad calls it “Critiquing the Critiques” ..we are all amateurs, we try and learn together bringing the knowledge we gain from “outside” to the table of CA. This is also why your suggestion that the word “critical” implies a dampening of hopes and aspirations is so wrong. For some of us, myself included, nothing depresses me more than when i know I’ve written a poem that is not exactly sparkling, which i know could be substantially improved, and i post it to cries of “wow”, “wonderful”, “perfect” etc etc .. this is extremely demotivating. “Critical analysis” implies a close look at something which is after all simply a series of words on a piece of paper, it starts from the premise that the writer is interested in improving what has been written to achieve a presumed goal of rousing excitement, sadness, deep thought, some emotion, whatever in her/his readers, and then ideally aims to make suggestions as to how to move closer to that goal - what could be more uplifting or supportive than that? Of course the writer may be interested only in false flattery and cosseting, in which case all I’ve just said would be a waste of time, but i hope that all of those ramblings correct any idea that CA is “harsh” or “destructive” or “negative” in anyway at all - we are here together to help each other to try and write “better” poetry, by which i mean poetry which will move people, make them think, maybe present a different view of an aspect of life - but the more people who are affect powerfully in one way or another the better.....  With all that in mind Karilea perhaps i might venture a few comments on your poem. Please, please remember i do NOT intend this to be unkind in any way - these are merely my opinions no-one elses: First thing to say is that when i read a poem i like to skip through it quite fast for the first read and form a fairly quick first impression of vaguely what is going on; what the piece is about if you like. I have to admit that even after several reads I’m struggling a bit to see the message or “point” in this poem so much so in fact that I’m beginning to wonder whether I’m missing some critical bit of information. This happens to me a lot being British. You Americans have customs and events that we don’t have of course, and a poem written around one of those would just fly right past me. Still the poem on the face of it seems to be about the saving of a crop of grapes either from frost or rain or sun, by the application of some form of heat, although butterflies and angels seem to feature strongly as well so I’m kinda unsure whether there are some insect or spiritual saviours involved somewhere along the line. Then there’s the closing reference to “come with me” which hints that the entire piece could possibly have been written as some kind of extended metaphor for the growth, near loss of, and then redemption of love between two people. As you can see I’m a little confused, which isn’t unusual for me, i confuse easily, but i venture to suggest that in this case it’s not entirely my fault. For a start a lot of the language, while appearing “poetic” is vague to the point of insipidness, this feeling of being in a kind of hazy word maze is further exacerbated by the inversions “the harvest grape did grow” for example, and the almost notebook style phraseology. The first few lines are an example of this; the language is verging on the ungrammatical and sounds akin to some sort of shorthand - a little quote from a site I’ll give you the link to later: “. Someone, somewhere, decided that leaving out the "the" articles in poems somehow made them sound more heartfelt and meaningful. It doesn't. All it does is make every piece written this way sound exactly like every other piece. It isn't clever, it isn't creative. It isn't even original. It's merely another sign of bad poetry.” ok that may be a little forthright and outspoken but your poem seems to include a curious mixture of places where there are too many definite articles and other places where they are annoyingly missing. The rhyme scheme or lack of it seems to be all over the place. There’s plenty enough rhyming so that it is easily noticeable yet it seems to have no rationale to it whatsoever.. sometimes in couplets, sometimes interwoven, sometimes absent. Again i may be totally missing something, but to me it was just a distraction. I know its cliche to talk about cliches and words that are overused, but a poem of this length which includes many words such as “kiss” “beautifully” miracle”(twice) “soft” (three times in 5 lines) “butterfly” (twice) “gossamer and wing”(in the same poem as butterfly), “sweet love”, “grace”, “smiles of angels”, “grace” again - yes, a poem with all that lot in has got to be exceptionally well written to have credibility and originality and hold attention ... This poem isn’t exceptionally well written imho... Being specific, the phrase “smiles of angels” has simply lost its impact for me... maybe the first time i heard it when i was 12 or something i might have vaguely thought “what a sweet image” but overuse and, well, simple vagueness i guess, now makes me simply skip over those words with a kind of yeah yeah yeah heard it all before, been there got the halo ....call it cynical if you like, but that’s the effect, or lack of it that it has. What i want is to be shown what THAT smile is or what THAT emotion is with a new fresh and compelling image that i can relate to - which really SHOWS me what that particular smile was like - that has impact, that has power and memorability ...that can move to tears or laughter or maybe trigger other more personal memories or feelings .....but “smiles of angels” ......nah..... Kris has mentioned that this is “bumpy” from a metrical point of view, and it is. Not necessarily a bad thing if it was intended and if it assists in producing or enhancing a particular effect you want to achieve. As it is the bumps in the meter simply make it an awkward read in places. I would love Marsha to point out to me WHY the form is beautiful and how she reaches the conclusion that it is “written perfectly”, I’m not being in the least bit disrespectful, but i simply can’t see it myself. Ok Karilea, you’ll have gathered by now that i am not a great fan of this poem, and i don’t know that i would like to make suggestions for a rewrite, but on the positive side i see in this, and in your other poems as well that I’ve read, a wonderful imagination, a creative person and, i think, someone willing to branch out and experiment. Many people might say at this juncture in your career simply write write write, churn out as much stuff as you can and you’ll get better. Personally i don’t agree with that approach, but as I’m a novice myself i could be wrong...lol... nevertheless i honestly think reading lots of good poets can help you improve and, seeing as you have expressed to kris an interest in learning about meter and sound, you might be interested in a great little book by Robert Pinsky called “The Sounds of Poetry”, it’s easy to read and just great for taking a look at the basics of meter, diction etc in a very un-boring way! This site is also pretty forthright and opinionated as to what poetry should and shouldn’t be http://www.alsopreview.com/plesson.html maybe not everyone would agree with everything they say, but used as basic guidelines and to provoke further thought it’s ok. Also got some good stuff on meter. So there ya go. You met the horrible opinionated me, as kamla is so fond of portraying me. Please remember all this stuff is just my opinion and, what the heck poetry is meant to be fun so please don’t take all i say too seriously, as everyone here will tell you I have been known to be wrong................... often Philip |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
I love it! Thank you Philip...wow...and you do all of this for free... I will certainly avail myself of the books and sites you have mentioned, and you must understand that Marsha is a fan of mine...I don't think I could even type certain four letter words that she would kindly praise them as an act of nature...LOL...she is a kind person... but yes, I want my poetry to improve, and after 18 months here, have finally gotten up the nerve to put them forth, just for this... so I will work on it [however, I still like what I did...that's why I put it here...so someone could smack me in the face with my errors] as I worked very hard on this for it to come across just this way... however insipid it might be...ah well...the things I ask myself to learn, hey? But Philip, truly, I thank you from the bottom of my heart, and will tear back into this piece tonight... thank you, dear English, for your thoughts. Karilea If I whisper, will you listen?... I would rather be silent and write, than speak loudly and be bound. KRJ |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Pretty much agree with Philip's assessment here -- I would drop the rhyme and alliteration and tell the story (which seems very interesting if I understand it correctly). I think the story, if written clearly with as little 'poetic' moments as possible would be a good example of narrative poetry -- the poetry will happen, write the story (but I'm also a big fan of underplaying the poetic tropes in poetry). As far as the Pinsky book and the link, I recommend and agree with Philip, these are good places to start. I disagree with parts in both places (the site neglects narrative and dramatic poetry in favor of lyric poetry without telling anybody and Pinsky doesn't follow his own advice when he reads poetry out loud -- he says to read it as normal speed but that's not what he does). But, hell, I just got to disagree with all the nice people out there. Just an opinion, Brad |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
karilea, brad is of course totally right about the link but as your poems are almost exclusively lyric in nature maybe it's not a bad place to start, the "difficult" narrative thing can follow later (that was a joke brad btw)as for Pinsky, i see what brad means. i kind of think though that he's only not following his own advice to make a point - ie to try and drive home the "sound" of stress and meter - the implication being that they are always there as the structural background (in both formal and in free verse) even though we may not "hear" them. anyway, you need to get the book first then you can judge for yourself, and come back and tell us what you think! and thanks for your constructive reply btw P [This message has been edited by Poertree (edited 11-26-2000).] |
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