»
Archives
»
Critical Analysis #1
»
the poet's tears---from Open #10
| Critical Analysis #1 |
|
the poet's tears---from Open #10 |
|
Sven
since 1999-11-23
Posts 14937East Lansing, MI USA 
|
Ok gang. . . this is my first CA post. . . so, please. . . be gentle. . .  by moonlight and by lamplight the poet writes his words they are said to be by many the sweetest ever heard but no one knows his pain the longing in his heart all they see is the love when he his tale starts he spins his tales of Romance and makes his readers swoon he shows to them the stars and takes them to the moon but his heart is empty no lover fills his soul it seems there is no one to fill that gaping hole and when his rhyme is done he hears their loving applause it warms him for a moment that they have taken pause but they know not the lonliness that lies beneath the verse all they see is the love they suffer not his curse for he knows little of love his heart knows more of pain but every time that his heart breaks he gets back up again back to sing his song of love in hopes that she will hear she who will caress his heart and hold it oh so dear and so to all that will hear he sings of love once more waiting in hope for that one who will open his heart's door they see his tears of longing the truest they have heard for his tears are not of water this poet's tears are words ------------------------------------------------------------------------ That which gives light must endure burning --Victor Frankl |
||
| © Copyright 2000 John Garcia - All Rights Reserved | |||
|
Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Welcome to CA I was reminded of a Dylan Thomas poem and wonder if you might go back and look at the poem as a model -- "The Artist in his Sullen Art" or something like that. Drop the rhyme and/or clean up the meter. Let's see -- what else? Thematically, the poem resolves around a 'secret' that is never told, or believed to be believed by the readers -- the poet is hiding something and the readers don't realize it. You never really show us what that pain is though. You might want to consider some type of reversal here -- a spot where the poet is deluding him/herself into believing, into knowing, what the readers don't know when in fact they do. That might make for some type of interesting epiphany, or at least a movement to enhance this piece. Now, did that really hurt? Just an opinion, Brad |
||
|
Elyse Member
since 2000-04-16
Posts 414Apex (think raleigh) NC |
hi sven! yeah, i have to agree, you sound like you're working really hard to make the rythm right. and it's supposed to just be there, and sound effortless and all that stuff. i know. its hard. also, while i realize this is a narrative poem, see if you can do a little more imagery or some such. i feel very much like im being told what is going on, maybe let me try to see it as well. on the upside, here are some lines i really liked: by moonlight and by lamplight ---you could do some cool things with this as an opener. i would focus on the ambiance created by these illuminations more, try to relate things back to it. a good line tho. but they know not the lonliness that lies beneath the verse ---i like the idea of talking of that which lies beneath the verse. lonliness though, is a word to be wary of. everybody and their mother uses it, and it seems, to me at least, like it's lost all its original power. not that you cant use it, im just saying. for his tears are not of water this poet's tears are words --- nothing to say but nice endingwell, this is CA. hope you like it here. and welcome luv Elyse |
||
|
Sven
since 1999-11-23
Posts 14937East Lansing, MI USA |
Thanks. . . Brad, I have a question. . . ideas on how to clean up the meter? Because when I read it out loud, it sounds fine to me. . . what kind of a meter should I strive for? One with 8 syllables, or one with the same number in each line. . . or what? As for interpretation, I kind of try to stay away from that. . . simply because everyone has an idea about what's going on and what's not in any poem that they read. So, everyone will want to know more about this part, or feel that this part isn't necessary. . . I'd just like to learn more about working on my meter and things on the technical side. . . it's not that I don't appreciate the insight into those kinds of things. . . I just feel that everyone has their own way of looking at things and that there is no one "right way". Thanks again. . . ----------------------------------------------------------- That which gives light must endure burning --Victor Frankl |
||
|
Honeybee Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-26
Posts 5372Ontario, CANADA |
Sven It's good to see you venturing out to CA - you're brave! LOL I have to disagree with Brad and Elyse, the rhyme is perfect, it flows beautifully, it does not sound forced at all to me, and I have read this poem 3 times just to see if they are correct, but it does not sound forced at all. Remember that the poets in here are only trying to help you with constructive criticism, but that does not always mean that they are correct in their assessment of your poem. I posted a poem here and it was praised but also ripped apart and the funny thing is I entered that same exact poem in a poetry contest in my province and won second place and highly respected Canadian poets judged the 300 entries and I actually won 2nd place and yet that was the same poem that was accused of too much repetition, etc.. My point is that not all the opinions expressed here are not always accurate, don't let them discourage you from writing again and don't let them convince you that you are not talented because YOU ARE! It seems to me that some in CA criticize only for the sake of criticizing since this is the forum to do it in, but a poem should only be criticized if it truly needs to be polished more and yours is perfect the way it is!!! But, there is always rooms for improvement for anything in life, poems included. Of course, Brad is very intelligent when it comes to poetry, so do take his advice seriously, but, I hope that more poets read this piece so that you get a wide range of views and suggestions.Brad said that "you never really show us what that pain is though" in regards to the poet hiding something. I say that is a good poetic technique, it adds an air of mystery in your poem, but at the same time, it is very clear that the poet is suffering from the loss of true love. Also, this leaves it up to the reader to use judgement on what you are trying to convey about the poet's pain in your poem...another good technique Elyse said "loneliness though is a word to be wary of, everybody and their mother uses it, and it seems to me at least, like it's lost all it's original power." I do agree with her on that point, she made a great point, however, if a poet can use the "overused" word "loneliness" and add a uniqueness to it, then they have succeeded and you have for the most part, done that! Emptiness, sorrow, loneliness, and ache are the feelings that the poet in your poem must be feeling right? So you must use these words or emotions. I can tell that this poem is coming straight from your heart, it may even be about you, I don't have the answer to that, but that is the strong feeling I get from your words and that is why this poem touches me and why it is well expressed. The last stanza is extremely well written and ends it uniquely and bittersweetly: "and so to all that will hear he sings of love once more waiting in hope for that one who will open his heart's door they see his tears of longing the truest they have heard for his tears are not of water this poet's tears are words" Wow! Take care, Melissa Honeybee< !signature--> The beauty of poetry gives my soul wings to fly free within dreams [This message has been edited by Melissa Honeybee (edited 10-11-2000).] |
||
|
Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
You're dead right Sven there is no "right" way to write poetry - there really isn't. So you go right on out there and do your own thing. Sometimes though maybe you ask yourself WHY you are writing...I know I do at least - so lets stick with me...lol. It's unlikely IMHO that anyone who posts to a net message board is truly writing "just for themselves" however forcefully they may profess it. I certainly don't. I want my poems to be read and preferably liked, but above all I want them to interest people to make them want to continue to read to the end, to make them think, and most arrogantly of all, to make them see something in a different or new light or at the very least change or influence a thought pattern. Ok a tall order you may think... and it is ..but that's what I like to think I'm striving for. If you aren't aiming for any of that and you're not bothered whether you grab a reader's interest or now and hold it to the end, and if your goal was merely to write a nice sounding succession of words then really there's nothing much wrong with your poem in terms of achievement - it succeeds! (Other maybe than a few bumps in the meter, see below). If on the other hand you wanted something to "make a statement" .. I have to say this didn't work for me mainly for the reasons Brad has outlined. I don't have a problem with the concept of including rhyme in this poem but perhaps one of the dangers of doing so is that it can tend to "lead" the text. "Swoon/moon" ... "applause/pause" are two places where stronger or more appropriate words might have been used but the rhyme scheme maybe influenced the choice and led to a lesser impact. The meter. Hummm, I read this as primarily iambic ie dum - DA (feet of two syllables with the second of each pair stressed or long).. You use several "acceptable variations" like the inverted foot or trochee DA - dum, but there are places where what is fairly regular becomes so much less so that there is a discernable judder in the flow... "and when his rhyme is done he hears their loving applause" and WHEN his RHYME is DONE he HEARS their LOV ING APP lause there are other places where I find the stress patterns difficult to cope with, but then again different people read things in different ways ... I'm nearly out of time here Sven .. and I just want to say a bit in reply to Melissa. Hi Melissa ..... it's good to see you in here again with your positive opinions about the poem. I for one though would really appreciate it if you might stick to commenting upon the poem rather than the other people who are replying. Just a couple of points: "Criticism" is not synonymous with bad comments about poems. You say: quote: the whole point of CA is that we DO criticize - CA wouldnt exist without criticism. It should always be constructive criticism and always honest ie a true reflection of the critic's feelings about a piece. Nearly always I think that is the case here. You seem to imply that people make what you perceive to be negative comments about a poem simply "for the sake of it". Nothing could be further from the truth. We work hard to try and make comments that we sincerely believe will assist people to write better poems. I hope you will believe that because it goes to the heart of what we are about here. quote: now I totally agree with you, if you mean by that that not everyone agrees with YOU (or indeed with each other) ...... we are all learning here and no one's opinion is necessarily "right", we just do our best and express our views and thoughts about poems. Take care Philip |
||
|
Sven
since 1999-11-23
Posts 14937East Lansing, MI USA |
Melissa, thank you very much my friend for your words. . . I know that this forum exists to help me become a better poet, which is what I want to be. . . the only way to become better is to ask, to be critiqued, and to learn. . . I feel that I don't write structured poetry as well as I could. . . I know that the words and the message are there, but I know that sometimes, my meter is off, or there's something wrong with the the form that I'm using. So, like I said, I'm more interested in the technical aspect of writing rather than getting into discussions about what I was saying or what I'm not saying. . . that's why I'm here. . . I feel that it's time for me to learn more. . . and in learning more, I can become a better writer, and a better poet. And I know that everyone will have a different opinion. . . it's up to me which ones I take and which ones I don't. . . everyone has an opinion. . .and that's why I'm here. . . I know that what Brad gives as his opinion is not what someone else will give. . .but it's good to have those different opinions for me to see what I need to work on and what is good about my writing. And an opinion is never accurate Melissa. . . that's why it's called an opinion. And I'm certainly not about to let anyone's opinion discourage me from continuing to write what I feel and what's in my heart. . . I just want to be better at it. . . Philip, thank you for your comments. I have come to realize that I want to become better, to not only write for myself, but to speak to people. Being here at Passions has shown me that I could become pretty good at this. . . but I know that I need to learn more and to understand better again, the technical side of things. . . like meter. . . it's something that I've struggled with a lot. . . I want to write in various forms, not just free. . . Your comments have been very helpful. . . like I said, meter is really hard for me. . . I never know how it's going to come out. . . and I struggle with it. . . I know that there are a couple of places here where it really doesn't have that "flow" that I'd like it to have. . . but sometimes, I have that fight, you know. . . "Do I use the word I want to use and disrupt the flow? Or do I use another word that I don't want to use, yet keep the flow?" What do you do when you have this problem? Thanks for your comments Philip, again, they were really helpful. . .and Melissa, thank you too my friend. . . I've really learned a lot from all of you. . . and I might post something else here for you all to have fun with. . . ------------------------------------------------------------ That which gives light must endure burning --Victor Frankl |
||
|
Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
Thanks for the constructive reply Sven - best of all was to hear that you won't be discouraged by opinions even if negative. Personally i find that i get MORE discouraged if all i get is replies of the "wow wonderful" variety because i know there's no such thing as "perfect" and i do like to hear positive and negative feedback supported by reasons. Anyway, enough of that, as i say, thanks for your response, i'm away for a few days right now, but i'll do my best to re-visit when i get back unless of course ole Jim has popped in and sorted out the meaning of the universe for ya!!!!!  bye for now philip [This message has been edited by Poertree (edited 10-12-2000).] |
||
|
Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Let's talk about the meter for a minute: but his HEART is EMPty no LOVer FILLS his SOUL it SEEMS there is NO [one] to FILL that GAPing HOLE The [one] means that is could be read with relatively equal stress depending on the reader -- perhaps a couple other places of disagreement but my reading, I would argue, is accurate. So why don't I like it? You alternate between three stresses in two lines and two stresses in the other. Actually there's nothing wrong with that except to say that the rhythm is simple. I found the last two lines awkward to read although that may be the ambiguity of [one] -- perhaps if you give it a full stress and pause slightly, you can get the rhythm to work. I find that when I read this naturally that doesn't happen, I leave that unstressed so it sort of gets in the way. But the rhyme itself is, well, rather common in poetry (you haven't seen it before?). That is, you have a simple rhythm and a common rhyme which would be fine in a comic poem but I think it trivializes your message, your theme (I don't separate structure and theme, they are the same thing to me, or rather two abstract aspects of the same thing -- you can't have one without the other). What if find myself doing is reading this more quickly than I think you want it read. This hurts the piece. The rhyme is something I expected and thus falls short of the delight in rhyme which is the 'surprise' it can give (okay, that's only one delight in rhyme). quickly: there's no one there to fill that gaping hole, his heart is empty, no lover fills his soul. It's not perfect but do you see how the 'there' slows down the tempo, do you see how the second part slightly slows down to emphasize the stronger image of heart and soul (yes, I'm not addressing the problems with those words for the moment). Just an opinion, Brad |
||
|
monique Member
since 2000-02-03
Posts 369Louisiana |
i am not english and no poet, but love to read poem, i just want to understand the tale line "when he his tale starts" when he??????his tale starts "he spins his tales of Romance" tales keep spinning in my head i like that line but "he his tale starts" i am not sure what to think about he and his and i thought it was a nono in poetry to use the same words in one poem except when it is necessary "the poet's tears are words" and we thirst for them words bathing in the poet's tears monique |
||
|
monique Member
since 2000-02-03
Posts 369Louisiana |
I notice in the dictionary there is tale with one meaning and tales with a different meaning i wish i could understand english better. So Sven in your poem is tale and tales have the same meaning or different i am sorry that i cannot grasp simple thing |
||
|
Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
monique, Don't be discouraged. Poetry in English is still English but it's definitely not the same language. I sometimes wonder if those who don't speak English as a first language have more insight to poety than native speakers. Your question is not simple, it is very important. Good luck and I hope you stay for awhile, Brad |
||
|
Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
hi monique long time no see. i'd agree with what brad says - especially the bit about staying for a bit. i'm not sure whether i ever did persuaded you post something in here ...well how about now??? your poems were always different, unusual and interesting nice to see you again philip oh and btw we have another french speaking poet from your part of the world in this forum Mysticharm (debbie), have you met her? [This message has been edited by Poertree (edited 10-19-2000).] |
||
|
Sven
since 1999-11-23
Posts 14937East Lansing, MI USA |
Hi Monique "When he his tale starts" This means that when he (the poet) begins to to tell his tale, his story. . . that's the meaning of "tale" that I'm using here. . . a story, a telling. . . Does that help? If it doesn't let me know. . . and like Brad said, your question isn't simple. . .it is important. . . ------------------------------------------------------- That which gives light must endure burning --Victor Frankl |
||
|
|
⇧ top of page ⇧ |
|
| All times are ET (US). All dates are in Year-Month-Day format. | ||
