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Critical Analysis #1
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no title (its the sonnet thing again)
| Critical Analysis #1 |
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no title (its the sonnet thing again) |
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Libbi Junior Member
since 2000-09-24
Posts 18 |
I"m not exactly sure that the meter is still right....but it rhymes. It has a rhyming pattern n e way....i'm not sure if it is compatable with a sonnet though. I know i'll probably regret asking this question,but Not A Poet, what is a turn? N e ways here it is... --------------------------- This morbid sound will never fade with time, I know the screams will haunt my soul for years, While this time its the sound which stings my spine, It still brings darkened blood into my ears. Old, unhealed scars are opened through your pain, I see my face so vividly in yours, The pain, and guilt you feel were once my own, Wanting to help can't open up these doors. Forever shadowed by this mournful tone, I can't relive that torture while your here, For only you can understand the fear, Of feeling happy just to be alone. I know that time will never heal your wounds, Though i'll except my past and help you soon. ------------------------------------------------- Any better? Does anyone have any suggestions for a title? Thankyou all for reading! -libbi- |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
wow ..libbi ...seriously impressive progress towards "perfection" - actually though I'm a bit of a rebel where sonnets are concerned I'm truly amazed by the speed with which you've picked up the requirements of meter etc.... though i do bemoan the loss of all that lovely enjambment and quirky half rhymes from your first effort .....please don't throw it away ...lol looking at this we now have: This-MOR bid-SOUND will-NEV er-FADE with-TIME, pretty good iambic pentameter I-KNOW the-SCREAMS will-HAUNT my-SOUL for-YEARS, pretty good iambic pentameter While-THIS time-ITS the-SOUND which-STINGS my-SPINE, opening iamb maybe a little weak and I'm not sure about the second foot either but otherwise pretty good iambic pentameter It-STILL brings-DARK ened-BLOOD in-TO my-EARS. pretty good iambic pentameter Old,-UN HEALED-scars are-O pened-THROUGH your-PAIN, I'm really not sure about the first two feet - the way i read it i stress healed which throws out the iambic pattern, but the first foot i can't make my mind up about and perhaps it should even sound something like: old-un-HEALED SCARS-are O-pened THROUGH-your PAIN I shall leave it to the experts..lol I-SEE my-FACE so-VIV id-LY in-YOURS, pretty good iambic pentameter The-PAIN, and-GUILT you-FEEL were-ONCE my-OWN, pretty good iambic pentameter WANT-ing to-HELP can't-OP en-UP these-DOORS. inversion on the first foot probably ok ....then, pretty good iambic pentameter For-EV er-SHAD owed-BY this-MOURN ful-TONE, pretty good iambic pentameter i-CAN'T re-LIVE that-TOR ture-WHILE your-HERE, pretty good iambic pentameter For-O nly-YOU can-UN der-STAND the-FEAR, pretty good iambic pentameter Of-FEEL ing-HAP py-JUST to-BE a-LONE. pretty good iambic pentameter i-KNOW that-TIME will-NEV er-HEAL your-WOUNDS, pretty good iambic pentameter Though-I'LL ex-CEPT my-PAST and-HELP you-SOON. pretty good iambic pentameter this reads pretty fluidly to me libbi and the rhyme scheme i see is now: abab cdcd (with a nice half rhyme on c) effe gg it seems to start off in English sonnet form ....but not sure about effe .. pete will have to comment on that as there are forms i don't know about. as for the "turn" .. i shan't take away his pleasure in explaining it .. BUT make sure you ask him WHY the turn should be there at all ... ie what makes it "right" to be there... you might as well get you money's worth ...  bye for now philip |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Hi again libbi, Like Philip, I am quite impressed with your progress. Are you really new at this or are you an expert posting under a new name? I also must agree with Philip that, although this is much closer to the prescribed sonnet format, it does lose some of the spontaneity and charm of the original. So do keep that one and just don't call it a sonnet Please keep in mind that this is all just my opinion and, in spite of what Philip says, I am certainly no expert  With that said, let's discuss your current revision a bit.Philip has already analyzed the meter and I am in complete agreement with him. You have some variations but they are acceptable and even interesting to me. Now to discuss rhyme. Although I suspect we could find some poet of stature who has used a rhyme scheme similar to this, your third quatrain still doesn't fit the standard form for an English sonnet. However, it looks like you can just swap lines 9 and 10 and you're there  This doesn't alter the meaning and, if anything, it may even have a better flow and feel. The bonus is that it effortlessly corrects the rhyme Now, while discussing rhyme, we should look at what else you have. You are using near-rhymes. For example: time/spine, pain/own, yours/doors, wounds/soon. I think near-rhymes are fine but their use in a sonnet should be limited and well thought out. You probably have too many here. Try to have no more than one or two. Time/spine and yours/doors are pretty close but pain/own is just too far off; I would definately reword that one. Then the couplet is generally considered the most important part of a sonnet. They must be two very powerful lines to justify either meter or rhyme discrepancies. Yours closes with a pretty strong statement so you might get by with a near-rhyme here but it needs to be a close as possible. I think you can change wounds to wound without context loss and help it a little. JMHO, what do you think? As Philip also suggested, you have lost the charming enjambment you had in the original. I would encourage you to try to get some of it back. When everything is as strictly formed as a sonnet with end-rhymes on every line, enjambment helps reduce the tendency to be sing-songy and monotonous. Next, you asked about the turn (do I detect a challenge in Philips remarks?). Well, before you ask, it's right for at least two reasons. First, it is traditional in a sonnet and the sonnet is definately a traditional form. Second, and more importantly, it adds tremendously to the reader's interest. There you have it, my British friend. There really is a reason. And I'm sure Brad and/or Jim can supply more. While talking about the turn, read your poem again. You have a pretty good turn at the couplet. Do you see it now? As I understand it, this must begin at line 9 in an Italian sonnet. But this is an English sonnet and the turn at the couplet is perfectly acceptable. (I think there some who do not agree with that though so be aware). A turn simply means a change of some sort. Think of it as a question and its answer or a proposition and a resolution. It might even be a change of voice or direction. Initially the poem might speak about someone or something then turn to speak to that someone or something. Looks like I'm rambling again. Could probably use some help here. Now that we have progressed beyond basics, I see one more problem. You could spend a little more time proof reading. Don't just trust your spell checker to get the grammar, punctuation and word usage right. In your line 10 "your" should be "you're" and in line 14, "except" should be "accept." Finally, in line 14, "i'll" should be capitalized, "I'll." I know some will argue that you don't have to do that, but you should be consistent. You have capitalized everything else according to traditional usage so you should there also. All right then, that's all the nit-picking I can do to this one. Thanks for letting me vent on your poem. I'm afraid I may be getting the reputation of disliking new sonnet writers. Rest assured that nothing could be further from the truth. I won't pick on anyone who doesn't want it but I will try my best to help anyone who asks. And you did ask. Rember though, this is all JMHO so treat it as such. Ignore anything you don't agree with and feel free to use anything you like. Keep up the good work. Pete Imagination is more important than knowledge Albert Einstein |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
HUH!!!?? time/spine yours/doors wassamatter with you lot over there?? They ARE perfect rhymes ...! ...lol wounds/soon and this is close ....very close ... as for "the turn" ... there are good mathematical and psychological reasons for it - i just need to get home and read my book .... see ya philip |
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Libbi Junior Member
since 2000-09-24
Posts 18 |
Thanks for replying, I'm extremely grateful for your suggestions. Okay firstly for the question: Are you really new at this or are you an expert posting under a new name? Did i detect a hint or sarcasm there? Well i don't know when to write your, or you're...so this should answer that question! Hmm.i know i lost some (okay a lot) of my sponteneity when i changed my first version into a sonnet. But its sooo hard to be spontainious when i have all these Da-DUM da-DUM rythems swirling around in my head! I'm not sure if sonnets are really my thing, though i will try to include some enjambent, and internal ryhme to make it a little my interesting to read. Thanks for all of your advice...i'm off to write me a sonnet. -libbi- |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Libbi: I agree with Philip in that I hope you do not decide to do away with the enjambing lines you used in your first sonnet. I stumbled over the meter of "Old, unhealed scars ...". When I think about it, I can read it as, "old un- / -HEALED SCARS ..." as Philip suggested (this would be a double iamb ... or minor ionic -- I think -- and, regardless of the name, is a fairly common substitution in verse). I would suggest that you make your intent a little more clear. The tone of the poem suggests some sort of betrayal or physical injury but I can't be certain. Perhaps a hint in a title would help me along (or you could just tell me).  Thanks for the read. I'm enjoying this sonnet trend that seems to be coming around again. Perhaps I'll dust off my sonneteer hat and join in the fun. Jim |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
arrrggggggg .....nope ....please noooooo ...not that ...anything BUT that ... ~stapling jim's hat firmly to his head~ er......his non-sonneteering hat that is ~sheesh~ ...lol [This message has been edited by Poertree (edited 09-27-2000).] |
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Elyse Member
since 2000-04-16
Posts 414Apex (think raleigh) NC |
libbi - i see that you have been well diagnosed by the fine poets at this site already, so let me just say if it's true that you are a beginner, i cannot wait to see what you will turn out with experience keep writing always. oh, and see if you can pen down something happy once or twice luv Elyse |
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Libbi Junior Member
since 2000-09-24
Posts 18 |
jboulder-The tone of this poem suggestes some sort of physical injury or betrayal, though i can't be certain. Prehaps a hint in the title would help me along (or you could just tell me). Basically your right with the phsyical betrayal thing. See i wrote this poem when i was sitting at my computer. THe farther of the family next door to me is well..short temperd to say the least. I heard him screaming at his children (both are around 5 and 7), then heard the cracking of a belt, or similar obect i assume. This is becoming more and more a regular occurence, as the farther is coming home drunk frequently. Well in more ways then one i can relate to such things..and this sonnet is the product of that. I fear i might have chosen the wrong poem to turn into a sonnet, with so much to say it is hard to fit it all into 14 lines! Anyway, now that you've heard my explanation, can you see it a little more in the poem...or is it still just insane rambling? lol@sonneteer hat..though i look foward to reading any sonnets you may write! Thanks for the encouragment Elyse and i will try to capture some of my happier thoughs in verse!- Thanks again everyone -libbi- |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
libbi lol... i love it !! for once Mr Bouder got the extra "L" instead of ME .... ha ha ... jim always has been "hard and immoveable" great typo !!!!! phiLip |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
ok Libbi ..i dug out the stuff on "the turn"... unfortunately i can at the moment remember where i got this from so i can give credit (i hope im not breaching too many copywrights!), but it's so interesting its worth reading: "THE TURN Besides its fourteen lines, the other most common feature of the sonnet is the 'turn', or volta: a sudden shift in the development of the poem - a twist in the plot, the breaking of the argument into proposition and counter-proposition, or something quieter: maybe just a shift in tone or rhetorical pitch. This is signalled explicitly in a stanza break between lines 8 and 9, implicitly by a change in the rhyme scheme, or by a clear syntactic 'signpost' at the start of line 9 - or, very often, some combination of all of the above. Sometimes the change is much more subtle, and the poem turns without indicating; it may even come slightly later or earlier than between 8 and 9 - even halfway through a line. Sometimes, though, the turn Is entirely absent, especially in the kind of incantatory list-poem that works by steadily gathering momentum. The reason we have the turn is that we just can't help it. The human brain craves disruption and variation just as much as it craves symmetry and repetition. It's worth having a look at the turn, and why it comes where it comes. THE GOLDEN SECTION Let's take a close look at the Italian sonnet, the progenitor of all the other forms. The Italian (sometimes called the 'Petrarchan', after its most famous exponent) has two stanzas: one of eight lines, generally referred to as the octave, followed by one of six, the sestet. This division of eight and six lines comes quite close to the mathematical ratio known as the golden section, or golden ratio. The mystery of the turn can't be properly understood without some discussion of this remarkable phenomenon. The golden section is a mathematical ratio of (very) approximately 8:5, or expressed as a decimal, 1-618. ..It can be defined as follows: If a straight line is divided at the point where the ratio of the smaller part to the larger is the same as that of the larger to the whole, then that point occurs at the golden section. The ratio can be derived mathematically from the Fibonacci series of numbers (1,1,2,3, 5 8, 13, 21, 34> 55- etc.); each successive pair of digits slowly converges - after a bit of wobbling - more and more accurately on the ratio. Both the golden ratio and the Fibonacci series itself are omnipresent in nature: in the whorls of the pine-cone or the seedbead of the sunflower, In the number of the daisy's petals. In the spirals of the nautilus or the snail's shell. The golden section casts its spell over all the arts. The ratio, especially in the form of the 'golden rectangle', was often applied to the proportions of classical architecture, and was employed In the construction of the pyramids. Leonardo to Seurat used the division in a highly complex way, calculating from it physical proportions, or the spatial arrangement of a picture's elements. It naturally marks the main point of denouement in many films, dramas and operas. Perhaps the most significant appearance of the golden section is in rnusic. The relationship between tonic and dominant is the basis for practically the whole of western music - and this is not dry theory, it's just the way we hear things; its rule is so pervasive that even atonal music is often rationalised by the human ear into an ebb and flow of tension and resolution between nonexistent tonics and dominants. It seems reasonable to conclude that this vibrational relationship - and we're talking about all sounds here, not just music - must have penetrated to every part of our spiritual, mental and physical constitution. In short, the golden section is a division we often can't help making. In poetry its most explicit manifestation there are plenty of others - is in the division of the sonnet, our square field. The reader will have already worked out that a more accurate division, according to the Fibonacci series, would have been 8:5, rather than the 8:6 we find in the sonnet. This, however, would have produced a thir- teen-line poem, and superstition (for one thing, Judas was the thirteenth disciple) would have soon legislated against that form ever achieving much popularity. It might be reasonably inferred, then, that our sonnet Is one line too long, and that a thirteen-line sonnet, with a turn after line 8, might be our Platonic form. Let me run this by you: one and thirteen are the same number. We often use the number twelve to Indicate a cycle, so that the thirteenth instance of something brings us back to the position of the first, one rotation further on: think, for example, of the hours on the clock, the months in the year, the notes in the scale. The thirteen-line sonnet is symbolic of both transformation and unity - we've returned to precisely the same point as we started, but have ascended in pitch or moved forward in time: so in the song's singing, in the idea's thinking, it's transformed, but stays the same. (Remember the paradox I mentioned earlier?) Think of the musical analogy: rising to the dominant on the eighth line, pausing, and rising again to the tonic again, having ascended a full octave. (As an anecdotal aside, it's worth mentioning that many poets and musicians attest to the mysterious experience of feeling that the whole poem or composition can be Inferred, with an absolute Inevitability, from its very first line, or Its 'given' line.) One more thing: the spectrum, or gamut, or whole compass, can be symbolised In the number 144-the number of completion, the big square to which all little squares (our sonnet included) perhaps aspire. Not only Is 144 the square of 12, but It's the twelfth number in the Fibonacci series. Its magical potency has long been recognised: the number of saved In Revelation, for example. Is 144,000: almost as many superstitions adhere to it as to the number 13. I'd contend that what was being attempted in the sonnet-cycle (particularly in constructions like the 'corona', a series of seven sonnets, each biting the tall of Its predecessor by starting with the last line of the previous one, the whole poem finishing with the very first line - though there is a more complicated scheme involving no less than fifteen), albeit unconsciously, is no less than the completion of a 144-line poem - one which ends with the same line on which the poem began, having undergone a series of profound transformations. The sonnet is a kind of mini-cycle, a one-octave." ~~~~~~~~ so now ya know ! |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Philip: When you remember where you found this, let me know ... I want to be sure to stay as far away from that book as I possibly can (Kinzie's been hard enough on me ... geeze!). Libbie: I'll forgive the mispelling of my name (it happens often enough that I'm considering changing it to the most common mispelling). I may have a sonnet in the works (it's germinating now, at any rate). I look forward to your next one.Jim P.S. And I hope your neighbor gets his act together too. |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
Jim lol..actually it's really not as intimidating as it sounds (leastways after brad nothing is intimidating..lol). In fact it's a good little book published by Faber and Faber 1999 "101 Sonnets from Shakespeare to Heaney" edited by Don Paterson ..... if you read it you'll never see a sonnet the same way again i guarantee! P |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Hey Jim, I always thought you were misspelling it before  |
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