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Poertree
Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359
UK

0 posted 2000-09-25 01:46 PM


So often you have found yourself
in my prevailing lean
and often have our reluctant tears
seeped from scars,
ill-healed
flesh pressed pine,
salt washed and resin sealed.

Too much trust sluiced
from your uncertain stand, you tremble
in my storm shudder, lightning seared
together
we watch, static in the shift,
as the last grains roll the edge toward us.

How could you know
that old pines never die,
or that after, in the sheets,
you'll helm our graceful clinkered curves
easily over rimless seas.

[This message has been edited by Poertree (edited 09-26-2000).]

© Copyright 2000 Poertree - All Rights Reserved
mysticharm
Member
since 2000-06-08
Posts 189
Canada
1 posted 2000-09-25 03:22 PM


hi philip

...it's been awhile  

...I liked the poem and hope I understand what your writing about, sailing? Yes?

thanks for the read  
debbie

debbie

Think of saying "I Love You" as always being overdue.
Love is a gift, not an obligation.
unknown



Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA
2 posted 2000-09-25 04:07 PM


Hey Philip,

It is good to hear from you again. Looks like you have busy locating old sonnets from the archives. Well, I also think this poem is related to sailing and a boat. But it is shrouded in obscurity somewhat like Trevor's recent mice poem. I confess much of it simply slips right over my dense head   There are enough interesting words to make me enjoy it even though I really can't understand. Not sure how you did that though. I'll wait for more input (comments by my learned friends).

Pete

Never express yourself more clearly than you can think -- Niels Bohr

Trevor
Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700
Canada
3 posted 2000-09-26 06:05 AM


Hi Philip,

Nice to see you on this end of the bayonet.

"So often you have found yourself
in my prevailing lean,
and often have our reluctant tears
seeped from scars,
ill-healed
flesh pressed pine,
salt washed and resin sealed."

Good opener. Had to think about "seeped from scars", wondering if "from" is the right word. I keep thinking of water getting into the hull which in turn makes me want to say "seeped through scars". Just a thought, other than that I think you set up the relationship/sailing story well. In my first read I thought it to be really a metaphor about a relationship and now my feeling is that its solely about the personification of one's relationship with his boat. Might not need a comma after "lean"..."and" and the line change seem effective enough.

"Too much trust sluiced
from your uncertain stand, you tremble
in my storm shudder, lightning seared
together
we watch, static in the shift,
as the last grains roll the edge toward us."

Liked this stanza as well especially the last line and a half "static in the shift,/as the last grains roll the edge toward us.", liked the use of grains. One thing you might consider is "storm shudder", just didn't seem to fit nor work IMO. Liked the use of "together", sits alone and works with both the line above and below.


"How could you know
that old pines never die,
or that after, in the sheets,
you'll helm our graceful clinkered curves
easily over rimless seas."

Again, good stanza and I loved the ending, "rimless seas", excellent wording, "clinkered curves"..good alliteration, I also liked the slight tone/speed change set by the punctuation, matches the mood of the last stanza. All in all a very enjoyable poem that still has me thinking if its really about a boat.

Thanks,

Trevor

Libbi
Junior Member
since 2000-09-24
Posts 18

4 posted 2000-09-26 06:38 AM


A nice read, i liked it! The theme was different, well something that i would never thinkg of writting about(maybe thats not saying too much). I guess what i meant was that its great how you can write about something that doesn't interest me at all, though still pull me in with intriuge.
I stumbled over some places, though i think it was just the way i was reading it(or maybe you are using some technical poetic device that i know nothing about..very likely).
Overall, i loved it...you didn't restrict yourself with as specific format, though included enough suttle rhyme to make it interesting! well done!
-libbi-

Poertree
Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359
UK
5 posted 2000-09-26 08:10 AM



hi all

i was trying to keep my mouth shut waiting to see what people would make of this, but after trevor's reply i can't keep quiet ... lol

debbie

yes it has be a while I've been kind of busy and only able to make brief forays into the forum trying to pick a poem or two and to really read and comment upon thoroughly ... anyway thank you very much for the kind reply.

pete

nice to see you too, though i have been reading your stuff - your writing has been impressive recently and I'm trying to get around to doing it justice with a proper reply - don't you dare go back to sonnets though ...lol...    ...... btw you are very good at finding words and phrases which don't describe you - your screen name is one and "dense head" is another ..lol

trevor

my turn again to thank you for taking a look at this, I'm grateful.

"All in all a very enjoyable poem that still has me thinking if its really about a boat."

i think you (rightly) felt uneasy with the idea that this was about a boat.  a boat certainly does feature overtly at the end of the piece of course, but as you pointed out early on in your reply the poem is actually dealing with a relationship.

Having said that, the scene is quite tangible for the first two stanzas, and only in the third does it become more metaphysical.  That scene however is not about a boat and a person.

I guess it was slightly unfair of me to post this in isolation because it was prompted by something i read and without the benefit of that background it may be a mite obscure, but you are close enough to make me think that you might pick up full picture, and of course you latched onto the important "relationship" thing.

a couple of hints:

you were quite right to be uncomfortable with:

"seeped from scars", wondering if "from" is the right word

i think it might be a little more understandable if you knew the "identity" of the speaker; it's not a boat!  but it is not human either, actually i thought it was pretty clearly stated in two instances in the piece and maybe also in the phrase "prevailing lean".  

As for "seeped from scars" - the poem makes use of parallelism in a few places, and this is one of them.  Parallels between the non-human speaker and the girl addressed.  The physical scars on the aged and doomed speaker (think resin) parallelled with the mental and psychological scars borne by the succoured girl from which "tears seep" ..... both the speaker and the spoken-to have their weaknesses and yet they also have their strengths, and this poem is trying to explore the way in which an unlikely coming together will be mutually beneficial to both.

I guess I've said enough for now, and I'll wait a bit before giving a full exposition ....er ...justification...lol .....to see if what I've said helps people pick up on the scene i had in mind when writing the first two stanzas.

as usual trevor your reply was helpful and encouraging, and you are right about that comma ..i shall remove it .....thanks


libbi

lol...libbi !!  how can you NOT be interested in a theme of "friendship and love" i thought everyone was into those ??..whatever you do don't go into the Open forum ..heh heh      (kiddin' btw) .....yeah well maybe it is a little obscure - I've explained a little above what i was driving at, but I'll give a fully explanation later.

as for the form, no clever poetic devices I'm afraid, this was my attempt at free verse - i wrote it several months ago and I'd like to think I'm getting better, but if you stumbled it's undoubtedly because i have a huge lot to learn yet ....

anyway thanks for stopping by and your kind comments

philip


YeshuJah Malikk
Member
since 2000-06-29
Posts 263

6 posted 2000-09-26 08:37 AM


I'll not get into what I think the poem means, I just loved the images and the word wizardy.  Good write.
Libbi
Junior Member
since 2000-09-24
Posts 18

7 posted 2000-09-26 09:12 AM


The more i read this poem, the wore i like it.  So mysterious..and it provokes what little thoughts i have.  THe entire meaning of the poem escapes me, so rather then sharing my dense ideas, i'll wait and see your explanation.
I honestly don't know why love and freindship poetry doesn't interest me.  I think i just read to many of those " i love you and you love me, lets go on a picnic la de da de" love poems.  Although my opinion is being swayed by some of the great poetry i'm reading here....
I don't know, i guess i like sad poetry the best (i'm one of THOSE people). Maybe thats because i usally only write when i'm depressed. It just occured ot me i've never written a love poem before.hmmm
N E way i'm rambling now, and you probably got really excited to see that you've gotten another reply (i  know i do), only to find the mad ramblings of me.
So n e ways i like your poem, its thought provoking, its time like these i wish i had more thoughts to be provoked.
okay i'm queit now.
-libbi-

Poertree
Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359
UK
8 posted 2000-09-26 09:31 AM


libbi

i'm always interested in "mad ramblings" - after all 'tis what i do most of the time ...lol .... and incidentally i personally think you're very wise to steer clear of "love" poetry - not many people since shakespeare did it well and it's nearly impossible to do it well and with originality and interest IMHO.  

this poem isn't so much about love as such, as a kind of mix of quirky metaphysics and a "joining together" ....lol, so i probably misled you  

and yes, even after all this time, replies excite me....lol

anyway

later

p

PS  "I think i just read to many of those " i love you and you love me, lets go on a picnic la de da de" love poems" ......rotflmao    

Trevor
Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700
Canada
9 posted 2000-09-26 11:35 AM


Bingo!...maybe,

I picture a tree or two trees, both near the edge atop of a cliff overlooking the sea. One is struck by lightning and has leaned upon the other one and both are now precariously close to going over but they never do. Either that or one has been struck by lightning and seperated into two yet keeps living....or two trees have grown entwined to each other??? Close...only so many mental bullets I can fire at this target

"So often you have found yourself
in my prevailing lean
and often have our reluctant tears
seeped from scars"

Sap running? Trees leaning hard but not falling?

"ill-healed
flesh pressed pine,
salt washed and resin sealed."

Clumpy lumps of dry sap. "flesh pressed pine", this one has me stumped, when i thought it the boat/relationship thing I pictured it as manufacturing pine trees into ship boards. "salt washed" gave me the notion that the story is by the sea.

"Too much trust sluiced
from your uncertain stand, you tremble
in my storm shudder, lightning seared
together
we watch, static in the shift,
as the last grains roll the edge toward us"

THis is now where I'm guessing that the tree is by a cliff near the sea and very close to going over. "lightning seared together" now that I've read it again I'm going to say entwined trees that have been struck by lightning and watching the erosion in front of them.

"How could you know
that old pines never die,
or that after, in the sheets,
you'll helm our graceful clinkered curves
easily over rimless seas."

"sheets" sheets of rain I'm guessing. "you'll helm our graceful clinkered curves"...this line brings to light a third player...relationship between two trees and the earth that holds them?

That's all I can muster for deep thought right now Thanks,

Trevor



Poertree
Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359
UK
10 posted 2000-09-26 12:49 PM


trevor you are pretty amazing and thanks for the time you're devoting to this, it's very interesting to see your evolving thoughts.

in several respects you've picked up exactly what i was shooting for.  you are absolutely correct about the speaker's identity - it is a very old single "sea pine" perched on the edge of an eroding sandy cliff, bent and scarred by the prevailing winds and "life".  you are also correct about the storm etc.

i think maybe there's still a bit of confusion about the second person, and indeed you're clearly having problems making "flesh-pressed pine" fit in!  check out the title, and then the intended double meaning/allusion in the first two lines.

"when i thought it the boat/relationship thing I pictured it as manufacturing pine trees into ship boards"

you are very much on the right lines here as well, but this only comes into play in the last stanza (let's call it the "afterlife" stanza  )

and "sheets" ...... lol...i never thought of sheets of rain! - actually this is another of these "intended to be clever" allusion things - a faint touch of eroticism in bed-sheets (casting some doubt on the platonic nature of the relationship), but also the main meaning of sheets = the spaces at either end of an open boat not occupied by thwarts (to be more precise the stern sheets).

again, thanks trevor, you're making me feel that it was worth posting this even though it is a little obscure.

philip

Trevor
Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700
Canada
11 posted 2000-09-26 04:29 PM


Okay, here I go again....


A woman is hanging off this tree by the sea...sad and disheartened that her chips got cold or that there is no vinegar for them she has contemplated death and is waiting for the tree to plunge downward, or  she caught the tree and it saved her life.......years later at sea, the tree is her mast...either that or she is having sex with a tree and a mast and her parents are having trouble dealing with her new woodfriend especially when she brings him home for Christmas dinner...all her friends outcast her except for Fifi the struggling Parisian artist/retired prostitute who knows that any love found in such a cold world is worth the struggle one must endure....however Fifi has an affair with the tree, thus breaking Gloria's (the tree loving girl) heart....Gloria runs out to the nearest pet store and buys a hundred woodpeckers and nine beavers....and a box of woodmites....and well you can guess the rest of the story.

Actually, due to your hint I'm going to say that the hanging tree someone saved her life in a storm and now, years later, it is the mast of a sailboat and the woman the captain who makes sure the tree lives forever on the boat....thus saving it from eventually falling off the cliff....kinda a one hand washing the other story. Well that's all I've got left in the tank...this was my last guess, so if its wrong you'll have to give away your well kept secret or face the responsibility of my mind exploding.

BTW, perhaps "you'll helm our graceful clinkered curves", should read "you would", the tenses of "you'll" didn't seem right.

Thanks again,

Trevor

Poertree
Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359
UK
12 posted 2000-09-26 04:39 PM


ROTFLMAO

........heh  heh just for that trevor you can wait till tomorrow for me to remember what it was really about ..lol ....   

i shall retire to bed smiling though, thanks for an entertaining day ..

take care

philip

Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA
13 posted 2000-09-26 05:05 PM


ROTFLMAO too. Who would have thought Philip was writing about woodies and such   or is that woods?

mysticharm
Member
since 2000-06-08
Posts 189
Canada
14 posted 2000-09-26 05:38 PM


hi philip

...this is an extremely short rendition, geez I wish I could interpret poems the way some do(I think I actually enjoyed watching you and trevor sparr LOL)

...ok my rendition, the title 'the girl' I interpreted in the same way ships or boats are referred to as 'she'. More or less an unspoken dialogue between the ship, the sea and the wind. Well at least I was right on the subject 'sailing'.

...although Pete's short version "woodies" is much funnier and paints a completely different image LOL

...I did enjoy it anyway philip  

debbie< !signature-->

debbie

Think of saying "I Love You" as always being overdue.
Love is a gift, not an obligation.
unknown




[This message has been edited by mysticharm (edited 09-26-2000).]

warmhrt
Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563

15 posted 2000-09-26 07:22 PM


Philip,

I apologize for getting to this so late. I read it over and over, and debated with myself as to what to say. It has your unique style, that's for sure, and your tendency towards obscurity. I want so badly to say I love this, but I just can't bring myself to commit to that. I like it, but can't put my finger on any one thing. It must just be your stylish writing...hell, I don't know. Me and any type of decisions are not compatible these days, unless it's glaringly obvious.

I think perhaps I should reserve my opinion, until I feel I can accurately assess your words. It's only fair to you.

Kris

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human
stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." ~
Albert Einstein

jbouder
Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash
16 posted 2000-09-27 12:22 PM


Philip:

I enjoyed reading the comments almost as much as I enjoyed reading the poem.  I especially liked Trevor's second interpretation but I think he missed Jake, the out-of-work actor, working as a cashier at Wal-Mart.  

Not much to add in the way of a critique.  As usual, Philip, I enjoyed working the meaning out of the poem's lines.  Nice work.

Jim

Poertree
Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359
UK
17 posted 2000-09-27 01:02 PM


A woman is hanging off this tree by the sea...sad and disheartened that her chips got cold or that there is no vinegar for them she has contemplated death and is waiting for the tree to plunge downward,

>>> back again trevor .......well you started off good anyway - yep, think "french lieutenants woman" - a girl goes to the undercliff and finds solace in the shelter of an old sea pine whenever she needs it - "so often".

years later at sea, the tree is her mast...

>>> sort of

either that or she is having sex with a tree and a mast and her parents are having trouble dealing with her new woodfriend especially when she brings him home for Christmas dinner...all her friends outcast her except for Fifi the struggling Parisian artist/retired prostitute who knows that any love found in such a cold world is worth the struggle one must endure....however Fifi has an affair with the tree, thus breaking Gloria's (the tree loving girl) heart....Gloria runs out to the nearest pet store and buys a hundred woodpeckers and nine beavers....and a box of woodmites....and well you can guess the rest of the story.

>>> actually this was an alternative scenario and i discarded it because it just came off too obvious - the fact that you got it so precisely even down to the name of the friend shows i was right to try and get rid of it ... seems i didnt do a good enough job and you saw right through the superficial words....lol

due to your hint I'm going to say that the hanging tree someone saved her life in a storm and now, years later, it is the mast of a sailboat and the woman the captain who makes sure the tree lives forever on the boat....thus saving it from eventually falling off the cliff....kinda a one hand washing the other story. Well that's all I've got left in the tank...this was my last guess, so if its wrong you'll have to give away your well kept secret or face the responsibility of my mind exploding.

>>> yup ...you really do have the basic gist of what i was trying to do - but you WILL keep trying to keep the damn tree alive ...lol.... "the last grains roll the edge towards us" ... - it does in fact fall - and maybe she does as well ..but then maybe not - I'm kinda confused about that myself!  see below.....
BTW, perhaps "you'll helm our graceful clinkered curves", should read "you would", the tenses of "you'll" didn't seem right.

>>> ummm I'll cover that in a minute


debbie

yup you were right about the sailing, and thanks for coming back on this

kris

lol.....i guess you are wise to reserve judgement - it was kind of obscure though trev has done a pretty good job - and I'm NOT talking about the darned woodpeckers or the beavers!  thanks for your kind comment though


to Trevor and all of you

I started out with the idea of the pine (the speaker) as representing a male friend to a girl. Flawed and hurt himself (growing in barren shifting sand) but still trying to offer protection and solace to a girl with her own need "to find herself"

Then again I see a man and a girl trying to stand "above" the world (ie on a cliff) both hurt, perhaps fatally, with "disaster" approaching .. the cliffs edge.  Maybe the man/the tree appearing on the face of it to be the stronger, but really with roots anchored only in sand (biblical), and that sand, that insubstantial foundation, eroding.

There was meant to be the feeling that she has been coming here for some time, that this has been no quick and passing friendship .. it has endured through other storms, but now the end is near.  

Also i tried to suggest interdependence sharing of pain with the mutual scars .... one bleeding resin, the other tears.  In the piece that provoked my poem the girl and the tree are portrayed in a final storm.  The edge of the cliff approaching (the cares of the world becoming too overwhelming) and she contemplates letting herself be dragged to her death by the inevitably falling tree.

working though the lines from the start:

the girl often "finds herself" in the comfort of the tree's protection ... I tried to go for a dual meaning in "found yourself" straight away ...... prevailing was, on one level suggestive of a will or strength prevailing, but  also in the overt layer I had the image of the pine tree leaning inland from the fierce onshore winds and the girl lying along the lean trusting to the support of the tree gazing out to sea.  I added the word reluctant to suggest that these are people who don't cry or bend easily to the troubles that face them .. tears are squeezed slowly like resin seeping.

The whole of the first 6 lines are concerned with the establishment of a bond deliberately slightly confusing in that the relationship is complex .... this is following on from the piece i read where it is unclear which party needs which more! Who is really leaning on who? so I started off with a clear indication that as far as the tree (the man ....the speaker) was concerned it was the girl doing the leaning and "finding herself" and the tree "prevailing" .... then I wanted to get some greyness into that apparently black and white position and I tried to do it by implying "singularity" with the use of "our" and also a sharing of hurt and grief, but also I thought maybe I could make even the form of the lines and language slightly "grey" primarily with the peculiar run-on line and the "double" use of the word "ill-healed".  So it can read:

and often have our reluctant
tears seeped from scars ill-healed.

Or

ill-healed flesh pressed pine,

still not sure whether i like that or not though.

As to the image I was trying for, this is all about the girl in the lean of the tree (just before the storm) .. Picture her there cheek pressed hard into the bark - so hard that her flesh is dented, almost moulded into the tree itself.  Also picture tears oozing from her lids.  Yes her cheeks are salt washed with tears, and yes the tree's scars ooze resin ... but I wanted to suggest further than that that the resin globes oozing from the tree's scars would be washed and healed by her tears, and that her tears ducts would in turn be stopped up and healed by the sealing effect of the tree's resinous tears.  Trying for the mutual aid each brings to the other.

too much trust sluiced
from your uncertain stand, you tremble
in my storm shudder, lightning seared
together
we watch, static in the shift,
as the last grains roll the edge toward us.

I was shooting here for  the vulnerable, trusting, troubled girl huddled for
protection beneath her tree as the storm rages around; "static in the shift" meant to resonate with the static electricity of lightning as well as describing the lack of motion as the eroding edge comes closer.

"together" set off for emphasis, and as trev pointed out both an ending and a beginning.

the storm has now arrived.   the girl has decided to stand with the tree/her friend and face it, at the other level this is the girl and the man standing against what the world throws at them, standing their ground in their friendship but knowing that sooner or later they will be overwhelmed ....... THEY will be stationary the world's failings will come up to them and swallow them ... they perhaps  possess a kind of unrealistic innocence and morality which dooms them..

"trust" refers to the fact that she has placed her trust in the things of the world, her loves, her career etc etc and they have failed her .. she tried to founded her life on them and now that trust is being washed away even as the sand is washed from the roots of the tree - the girl "trembles" in her uncertainly even as the tree "shudders" in the final storm feel its own foundation eroding.  "Together" they watch their twin existences being eroded and the end (the edge) coming closer ..

the final stanza different in that it is not meant to have a "concrete" interpretation, i guess i tried to achieve certain things though:

to ensure that the reader went away with the feeling "that everything worked out alright"

to indicate that the girl and the tree (man) became almost as one with the girl adopting a role at least as important as the man, that of guide or navigator, in contrast to the opening now she has REALLY found herself in him ...lol

finally to introduce a little sensuality; move on slightly from the friendship thing, to show that the calamitous event has actually sparked something more between the two ..

If the reader felt that the tree perished and that the girl then made sure it lived on by transforming it into a boat that I think is fine.  

But perhaps now at the end of the poem i was trying to leave the superficial images of the tree and the girl and realise that this is about a special relationship.  One which passes through the worldly storms and dies .. only to be recreated if you like "in the hereafter" but not necessarily.....lol ... I prefer to see this as a girl and a  friend losing faith in everything in the world except their own relationship and finally allowing themselves to be overwhelmed.  The tree/man has an has an inkling that truly if they brave the fire, the end, the edge, and emerge on the other side then life really will be different (hence the tense in "you'll" - the tree is contemplating what may happen after his (and maybe her) demise)........ they will be as one ("our") sailing the "rimless" world together (for here there are no dangerous shifting edges to overwhelm or creep up on them, this is the seamless safe place of their friendship and yes a little more, as i hoped a reader would pick up from "curves" and "sheets") ... Incidentally the more nautical reader ..lol..  might have noticed the dual use of the word  "after" - as well as in "after" the storm also the "after" part of the boat, and the "sheets" I've already covered in an earlier reply ... but then if you don't sail you might not know ....

The man (the tree)  also sees that in the new found relationship there will be another change .. the girl will have found herself and will not longer be passive or disillusioned but will become the guiding force - trying to added to the sense of a shift in dependence throughout the poem.

well there ya go ..  as i say, somewhat obscure without the benefit of the piece that provoked mine, but thanks to all for the comments and for having a stab at interpretation - I'll try and be a little more transparent next time - i promise ...

philip

PS to trevor ....are you really into fish and chips over there?? I thought you were like the yanks, all "fries and burgers" totally uncivilised        

Elyse
Member
since 2000-04-16
Posts 414
Apex (think raleigh) NC
18 posted 2000-09-27 04:20 PM


Oh my!  what an education this thread has been.     first, let me say philip, you are amazing and trevor, you have an amazing mind.  how fascinating to watch it work and pick apart a poem.  i have learned from you.  free education!  yay!  im begining to think i pay too much for this "college" stuff    now.  

libbi - you,on love poems.  SO funny.     

trevor - you, on woodfriends.  hysterical.  im here in the computer labs practically snorting because of you ill have you know.  highly embarrasing, but worth it all the same.  

to philip, again, thankyou for the intriguing piece and all the rich discussion it sparked.  good job! (elyse gives you the thumbs up sign)  
luv Elyse

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