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Critical Analysis #1
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Revision of: Social Gatherings With My Friends
| Critical Analysis #1 |
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Revision of: Social Gatherings With My Friends |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Immersed in room of familiar faces; like a dyslexic child stacked nose deep in comic books side mouth chewing on word bits; damned beyond a swallow. I stand shoulder to shoulder, eared to redundancy (as if being there was not enough, as if being the story was less a tale). I keep a “What am I doing here?” tuff tucked behind my lip, curled round for nubbing tastes at candied nowheres and warm my drink with finger fidgets. The smiles, (from me) are worth little more than shoes on the dead and aren’t nearly as polished but answer in such a manner as to hang quantative glee questions firmly by their collars and educate them on the space of coffins. Burrowed deep in the isolation of groups from years of digging for the home I mourn the feeling of not belonging in the birth of everyone belonging but me. [This message has been edited by Trevor (edited 08-24-2000).] |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
hell trevor ..this is one i shall have to make the time to come back to .. it looks substantially altered from before, and after a quick scan i see you have some new and pretty clever images and wordplay in the revision .. ahem ... one thing though .. lol..i'm sure i mentioned "emmersed"?? in my reply to your first post ..am I missing a new word here?  back soon i hope p |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hi Phillip, Emmersed....used an E because the "I" in Immersed killed my father, long story but a large can of beans and a midget named Beatrice was also involved, left me with a lot of trauma......can't believe I made the same mistake twice, you know I blame it on my Canadian heritage, we pronounce things funny Thanks for catching the typo twice. I look forward to hearing the rest of your thoughts on the revision. Trevor [This message has been edited by Trevor (edited 08-24-2000).] |
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ladysixstring Member
since 2000-07-27
Posts 374 |
Fantastic lines... "the smiles, (from me) are worth little more than shoes on the dead and aren’t nearly as polished". -jaimie Website: www.ladysixstring.com |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
Trev A few impressions and comments. As in most of your poems, great use of the techniques of punning, and suggestions of irony and ambiguity. You also have a talent for bringing one particular event or theme clearly to the reader and drawing the reader into the experience. This poem was no exception. It was sprinkled with resonances, and clever allusions .. in fact so many i hardly know where to start ..lol Running through the piece there seemed to be a movement from childhood imagery .. the child and the comic books ... candy ... fidgeting..... then a fairly abrupt transition to death ... followed finally by a closure which refers to a birth...... This was an interesting framework within which to present a tableau of a person uncomfortable with his presence among friends at a drinks party ....... But then within that framework, and despite that overt picture (made more overt by the Title), the reader is saturated by the waves of compelling imagery which have the effect of broadening the scope of the poem way beyond the suggestion of the Title and reminding the reader of the context (the framework i refer to above) within which it is apparently set. >>>Looking at some of the devices: Immersed in room of familiar faces; like a dyslexic child stacked nose deep in comic books side mouth chewing on word bits; damned beyond a swallow. >>>Like the way "Immersed" resonates with "nose deep" and ties with "Burrowed deep" and "digging" in the final stanza ..perhaps emphasising the circular aspect of the poem (childhood death birth). >>>At this stage the reader has no idea of the later introduction of the death imagery and allusions, but "damned" has some great echoes in this respect as well as the extremely clever allusion to a damming or repression of emotions or feelings in the speaker. >>> Just as Immersed resonates with nose deep ...you have "familiar faces" being picked up again by "comic books". >>> a familiar trev technique in the second line of taking the obvious and tweaking a little to create something just on the edge of understanding. Something familiar but unfamiliar.. "like a dyslexic child stacked nose deep in comic books" ... should of course be "like a dyslexic child nose deep in stacked comic books" !!! But of course you turn it round and make a potential cliche a nice thought provoking line .. liked it. >>> and of course the sense that can be picked up from that line is wonderful.. i love the way in which the second line of the poem illuminates the opening line giving it context with pinpoint accuracy .... So we see the speaker in a room where the faces are as flat as two dimensional comic book faces - they are familiar to him .. but just as a comic book face has no depth to a child so these have none for him .. And then of course the irony ...the child is dyslexic ... and the faces become flatter and more meaningless still, being unclothed by character providing words .. just as the words from those surrounding him bypass the speaker's understanding........ nice Trev.. " side mouth chewing on word bits; damned beyond a swallow." >>>Wrestled with this for a bit but came up with an image conveying the indigestibility of words - the speaker's extreme discomfort with small talk? I stand shoulder to shoulder, eared to redundancy (as if being there was not enough, as if being the story was less a tale). >>> wondered maybe if you could do better than "shoulder to shoulder" .. although it occurs to me that you might have been shooting (lol) for the regimented military associations of that phrase? Kind of like it was a "duty" to be there, as well as the more obvious connotations of stifling and confinement. I suppose it just sticks out as a well used phrase in a poem full of newness! >>> not sure about the necessity for the parenthesis (unlike the later one) the stanza seems to work as well without them, but I'm obviously missing something here. >>> and "eared", for some reason I didn't like possibly because it appears as a verb here when I'm normally used to hearing it as an adjective (big-eared person etc)... >>>I pulled from that line though the image of the speaker firstly physically central and secondly central to the conversation (the story) flowing around him ..ie in two senses the "centre of attention" yet at the same time apart from it all - outside it all ...maybe providing the material for the storyline yet being excluded from the telling of the whole tale. I keep a ""What am I doing here?"" tuff tucked behind my lip, curled round for nubbing tastes at candied nowheres >>> ok for me these lines didn't work .. I can see the throw back to the child imagery at the start with the word "candied", and i can see the basic thrust of the meaning, but i don't much like the words themselves, and the whole seemed a little unnecessary. After all by now the reader is very well aware that the speaker is feeling out of place; do you really need to spell it out with the phrase What am I doing here?" .......... "tuff" and "nubbing" are words I'm not familiar with though i can see what they mean i think.. I wondered if you meant "nubbin"btw? I guess the second line of that couplet just seemed like it was trying too hard to be poetic! and warm my drink with finger fidgets. >>> nice easily assimilated instantaneous image The smiles, (from me) >>> great touch this. The irony of the aside works well, and gives the character of the speaker a likeable self effacing shade (we all know the false smiles that surround us on these occasions after all ...no? ...lol) are worth little more than shoes on the dead and aren''t nearly as polished >>>these two lines wittily introduce the death allusions and imagery which from now on follow thick and fast: dead hang coffins burrowed deep digging mourn but answer in such a manner as to hang quantative glee questions firmly by their collars and educate them on the space of coffins. >>> wow ..what a mouthful ... I have to admit that initially i thought you'd gone far to far with these lines .. The first seemed to break up the flow of the poem not only because of its length, but also, and probably mainly, because of the complexity of the language and the difficult of the meaning. The line grew on me as i started to try and make some sense of it but then i remembered that quantative isn't a word (i always make the same error) .. i think you missed the "tit" ..ie "quantitative" ...yes? The extra syllable made me stumbled a little more when reading the line, but leaving aside the rhythm I am clearly missing the reason for the insertion of the word in the first place because i can't see what it adds at all? ...... perhaps i have the wrong word? >>> anyway when i finally got myself togther on these lines i picked up the nice image of: "a smile to kill the off the mischievous question" ........ lol ie grabbing provocativeness by the scruff and knocking it cold. >>> "educate them on the space of coffins" is a cool way to say "KILL" ......lol ....... i must remember that: The Scene Skinhead mugger brandishing flick knife on dark night in mist enshrouded London alley encounters passing American tourist: SKINHEAD: "‘Ere mate .. your money or your life" J BOUDER (black belt in some arcane martial art): "Heh heh, put that toy away or I shall educate you on the space of coffins!!" LOL ...... i can just see it as the next box office hit...lol >>>>>>>>> "Bouder does London"!!!!!! Burrowed deep in the isolation of groups from years of digging for the home I mourn the feeling of not belonging in the birth of everyone belonging but me. >>> lots more grave and funeral imagery. "the home" had me a little puzzled, and finally rationalized it as some kind of personal search for "truth" or "self-finding".... >>> the last two lines are a neat closure in that they have the "feel" of an ending, but the "words" of a beginning ("birth") .. creating a kind of tension. I think it has to do with the inclusion of mourn and birth in close proximity and simultaneously the speaker trying to rationalise his feelings of not belonging towards some kind of conclusion. >>> furthermore the lines can be read as: I mourn the feeling of not belonging in the birth of everyone belonging but me. or as: I mourn the feeling of not belonging in the birth. Of everyone belonging but me. >>>I know the second option messes up the sentence construction - i just inserted the period to emphasise what I'm getting at. >>> I tend to think you were aiming at the idea of the "birth" being the birth of the cozy interaction of a group of close friends but excluding the speaker .. so then we get this wonderfully impossible unclosed loop which befuddles the mind. The speaker see something great being created which is great partly by reason of his exclusion yet he regrets his exclusion, while at the same time knowing that his very inclusion would mean the death of the entity ... !!!! clever clever ..... that would be the meaning of the first, and most likely, reading of those lines, no? >>> the second alternative opens up the possibilities by leaving the identification of the meaning of the word "birth" unclear.... several possibilities for birth occur to me, which I'm not going into here ..lol .. The final phrase then stands alone and simplistically bemoans the speaker's apartness. Not what you had in mind i guess! Well there ya go Trev .. just a few thoughts philip |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hello, six strings: Thanks for the compliment. Philip: You amazed me with the depth of your critique, I can't thank you enough for the time and effort you put into it. Thank-you. "Running through the piece there seemed to be a movement from childhood imagery .. the child and the comic books ... candy ... fidgeting..... then a fairly abrupt transition to death ... followed finally by a closure which refers to a birth...... This was an interesting framework within which to present a tableau of a person uncomfortable with his presence among friends at a drinks party." Glad to hear that you noticed the transitioins. Wasn't sure if it was going to work, originally I thought of using just childhood analogies, etc. to show the uncomfort of the character. "a familiar trev technique in the second line of taking the obvious and tweaking a little to create something just on the edge of understanding. Something familiar but unfamiliar.." Am I becoming that stagnant that I now have my own technique I guess I like reversing the roles of animate and inanimate objects. It was not the comics stacked in front of the child but the child stacked in front of the comics."Wrestled with this for a bit but came up with an image conveying the indigestibility of words - the speaker's extreme discomfort with small talk?" Yes that's pretty much what I was shooting for. Small talk and conversations that hold no interest for the character. Unable to digest or respond to what is being said. That's also why I put in the smile line to latter emphasis this, all the character can do is put on a happy face in response to conversations. "wondered maybe if you could do better than "shoulder to shoulder" .. although it occurs to me that you might have been shooting (lol) for the regimented military associations of that phrase? Kind of like it was a "duty" to be there, as well as the more obvious connotations of stifling and confinement. I suppose it just sticks out as a well used phrase in a poem full of newness!" I wasn't really going for duty to be there but rather an actual physical circle of friends gathered in a room rehashing the same old stories. But I think your right, shoulder to shoulder could probably stand to be changed. "not sure about the necessity for the parenthesis (unlike the later one) the stanza seems to work as well without them, but I'm obviously missing something here." Kinda wanted a more quiet tone for those two lines, don't know why, just the way the tone sounded in my head while writing it. Don't know if I'll change it but thanks for pointing it out. "and "eared", for some reason I didn't like possibly because it appears as a verb here when I'm normally used to hearing it as an adjective (big-eared person etc)... " That's just another Trev technique Usually reads ear'd when I verb it up. I think I'll revamp that whole first line."I pulled from that line though the image of the speaker firstly physically central and secondly central to the conversation (the story) flowing around him ..ie in two senses the "centre of attention" yet at the same time apart from it all - outside it all ...maybe providing the material for the storyline yet being excluded from the telling of the whole tale." You pretty much got the whole of the meaning but not sure if you meant excluded by the group or self-exclusion? I was going for self-exclusion. "After all by now the reader is very well aware that the speaker is feeling out of place; do you really need to spell it out with the phrase What am I doing here?" .......... "tuff" and "nubbing" are words I'm not familiar with though i can see what they mean i think.. I wondered if you meant "nubbin"btw? I guess the second line of that couplet just seemed like it was trying too hard to be poetic!" Is it spelled nubbin? I was going for the chewing tobacco thingy?....anyways I think your right about it coming off as unnecessary. I don't think that line credits the reader enough, it's not very subtle. Thanks for catching that. "great touch this. The irony of the aside works well, and gives the character of the speaker a likeable self effacing shade (we all know the false smiles that surround us on these occasions after all ...no? ...lol)" Thanks, glad you liked that line. Since I'm in the service industry I often get to practise my plastic smiles. Works well for all occasions. "The line grew on me as i started to try and make some sense of it but then i remembered that quantative isn't a word (i always make the same error) .. i think you missed the "tit" ..ie "quantitative" ...yes?" I believe you are correct sir. Quantitative...damn, I do that a lot. "The extra syllable made me stumbled a little more when reading the line, but leaving aside the rhythm I am clearly missing the reason for the insertion of the word in the first place because i can't see what it adds at all?" The character, which is largely based on me...no you say? yes believe it or not its about me! anyways, the character is often asked repeatedly by the same people if everything is okay if they don't have a perma-grin stretched across their face for the duration of a lifetime....so the fake smile is there to kill any of those annoying mass questions or requests for smiles. Personally since you reminded me that it is quantitative the syllable count doesn't work so that line gets to go into the poetic shop for some tweaking as well.Tooooo funny with your Jim vs. the english skinhead scenario.....but as funny as it is I can see it really happening ""the home" had me a little puzzled, and finally rationalized it as some kind of personal search for "truth" or "self-finding"" The self finding is what I was shooting for. Finding where one feels like they belong, and the character finally realizes that after looking for comfort in this group, he won't find any. "I tend to think you were aiming at the idea of the "birth" being the birth of the cozy interaction of a group of close friends but excluding the speaker" That's what I was shooting for, everyone "seemed" comfortable in being there except the speaker. "The speaker see something great being created which is great partly by reason of his exclusion yet he regrets his exclusion." Actually I wasn't going for the speaker regretting his exclusion but more so mourning the fact he doesn't feel included, not because of the group excluding him but because of self-exclusion. He's mourning the feeling of not belonging in the birth of knowing he does not belong. And though I don't really touch on it, I tried to give the feel that this would mean the end of his association with the group. "while at the same time knowing that his very inclusion would mean the death of the entity ... !!!! clever clever ..... that would be the meaning of the first, and most likely, reading of those lines, no?" Apparently you are more clever than I in order to think of such a interesting take on things With the birth/death thing I was kinda aiming for a. the birth of this group, the speaker realizes that all his friends melded into this comfortable group, b. the speakers re-birth, he now knows he doesn't belong and through the last line I tried to vaguely say that he must move on because this is not where he belongs...the death of trying to feel like he belongs into the birth of knowing that he doesn't belong...at least not anymore. I hope I'm not rambling on here???Well, thanks again, I really appreciate the effort you put into this critique, honestly when I read what you wrote it really made my day. I hope you post some work again sometime soon so I can return the favor. Take care, Trevor |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
It was effort well spent Trevor I learned new things in the process, and moreover it made MY day to read your detailed response. Thanks again for the great poem and for taking the time to come back to me. Philip PS Glad you liked the Jim/Skinhead encounter - pity the poor mugger ..  |
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mysticharm Member
since 2000-06-08
Posts 189Canada |
hi trevor ...I know this poem deserves much better then what I am about to say LOL but fools do dive in lol. ...truthfully, I understand your poem because of reading the dialogue between you and philip, you certainly do have a talent for confusing me LOL ...most times I don't give my opinion cuz I know it's going to sound so juvenile in comparison to what has been written, I honestly don't know if my thinking process is to simple or everyone elses to complex LOL ...once I understood it though I did like it although its not quite my cup of tea...oops a cliche LOL ...how do we canadians pronounce things funny? am only joking, I don't expect an answer cuz you would probably give me one I wouldn't understand LOL thanks for the good read Trevor debbie debbie Think of saying "I Love You" as always being overdue. Love is a gift, not an obligation. unknown |
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Seoulman Junior Member
since 2000-05-24
Posts 41 |
Hi Trevor, just finished reading this one then read it again a few more times. I must admit when I read the title I was expecting the more positive aspects of meeting friends but was quite taken back as the poem unfolded. The best thing about it was how we can all relate to such a situation of being in a room full of people yet feel so lonely and I loved the way you set the scene with reference to feeling like a 'dyslexic' child which conveyed the image of seeing something but in a different way to how other people see it. The rest of the poem flowed nicely in that once you set the scene, then came the familiar encounters, then the boredom from this, then the last stanza of 'I'm different but why, and is this normal?" You fit so many emotions in the space of just a few words. Though I didn't like the way you presented the third stanza in ()as Poertree stated. But then again I thought maybe you were aiming for a state of 'thought'. Thanks for the read! |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Trevor: Sorry I am so late to this poem. Excellent word choices here (great nouns and verbs) ... I am of the opinion that the best modifiers can't sweeten a lousy noun or verb. This is a great improvement over the first draft. The chewing tobacco reference in "nubbing", for example, conveyed the urge to spit out those hidden words beautifully. Philip offered a great critique and, for the most part, I agree with what he said. I also enjoyed Philip's Jimbo/English skinhead encounter but, being an American, was uneasy with the proposed title ... "Bouder does London" ... has that "Debbie does ..." stigma attached to it. Besides, I would never do a film without my multi-national buds ... perhaps a science-fiction flick where Brad travels back in time to knock off Edgar Allan Poe before he can write "The Bells" and Jim, Trevor, Philip, Pete and the rest of the gang travel back in time to stop him. Just a thought. If I do run into a skinhead mugger in England, I would like your permission to use that line. It rolls off the tongue and wouldn't interfere with my breathing as I turned and ran away. Later. Jim |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
ROTFLMAO ... "Bouder does London" ... has that "Debbie does ..." stigma attached to it ... much hilarity here jim ... I'm afraid Debbie's activities in JR country (did she "do" other cities as well? - not that i'm interested of course..lol) have even penetrated (!) my green and pleasant land .. heh heh ... so glad you spotted the allusion ~grin~ P |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I like this much better but I'm still not happy with those last two lines. You can't just delete them but I wonder if you could somehow bring the tone down a bit; they still sound kind of, I don't know, self-pitying. Maybe shoot for a final twist where this alienation becomes a kind strength or something. Thanks, Brad [This message has been edited by Brad (edited 09-17-2000).] |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Seoulman: Thanks for your comments, I think I'll try to revise that third stanza, seems like the majority feel that it could be improved. Jim: No need to apoligize, always worth the wait to hear your comments. Glad you thought the revision was better though I still think it could use a few more days in the garage for some tweaking. Excellent film idea.....but make sure you leave the ending open for at least three sequels. Philip: ...Debbie Does....and who says good art isn't universal? Brad: Might be an interesting twist to show it as a strength, though I'm not accustomed to writing feel good about oneself poetry The last stanza was a bit forced when I wrote it, personally I want to keep the idea of the speaker in transition from feeling like there are people who don't belong to coming to the conclusion that maybe its just him who doesn't belong....maybe I could twist it to have him conclude that absolutely no one belongs and all the people are just putting on an act...and that way no one belonging would actually be everyone belonging because in fact everyone would be on the outside looking in....dunno what'cha think?Thanks for your comments Brad, Thanks again to all who commented on this poem, take care, Trevor |
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