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Denial |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563
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we hugged each other as she cried, I didn't speak, just listened to words choked out between the tears, of what her son, now grown, on his own, had done. seeing her later, the words had changed, 'he'll be okay, looks much better now', her husband nodding, 'he's alright, nothing wrong with him', and they smiled. I wanted to scream, to rip through their denial, bring reality within their grasp. he's not okay, he's not alright, "healthy" people don't do that. but I didn't say a word... she was my friend, I didn't want her to hurt anymore than she already was, so I just hugged her. I was wrong. Kris < !signature--> the poet's pen...gives to airy nothing A local habitation and a name ~ Shakespeare [This message has been edited by warmhrt (edited 05-29-2000).] |
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Elyse Member
since 2000-04-16
Posts 414Apex (think raleigh) NC |
mmm, Kris, you're dealing with some really stong emotion here. it all really comes through, but might be a little more powerful with a little shaving. im sure you know what i mean: trimming off "had"s before verbs, maybe taking out an article or preposition (or two  ) for a few specifics..."he swallowed a bottle of pills, intending to end his life" you could probably cut the second line here, the suicide element is understood. something about "three short days ago" strikes me wrong. I would go with just "three days ago". i think maybe the first is to choppy (?) "'healthy' people don't do that, he has an illness, a serious illness" this just seems really repetitive to me, you might nix one of the "illness" phrases, or keep both and cut the first line. as always, feel completely free to ignore me i think the final stanza and last line have the most oomph. (just so ya know  )luv Elyse Do I contradict myself? Very well then . . . . I contradict myself; I am large . . . . I contain multitudes. -Papa Walt |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hey there Krissy babey "we hugged each other as she cried, I didn't speak, just listened to words choked out between the tears, of what her son, now grown, on his own, had done." I liked this stanza a lot, especially used as an opening because it gave the reader curiousity. "seeing her later, the words had changed, 'he'll be okay, looks much better now', her husband nodding, 'he's alright, nothing wrong with him', and they smiled." I liked this stanza too, it gave hints at what might be the problem without actually saying it and corelated nicely with the title. "I wanted to scream, rip through their denial, bring reality within their grasp, he's not okay, he's not alright, three short days ago he swallowed a bottle of pills, intending to end his life because, as he said, he didn't want to feel that way anymore. 'healthy' people don't do that, he has an illness, a serious illness that he must accept... and just how do you expect him to do that when you cannot accept it?? he needs truth, understanding...support." I like the idea behind this stanza but felt you were too direct with the reader. I think you could probably lay more hints down at what happened and give the reader the same info rather than just spelling it out for us. Perhaps cut some of it out, for example: "I wanted to scream, rip through their denial, bring reality within their grasp, he's not okay, he's not alright, 'healthy' people don't do that." I think the healthy people don't do that line gives the reader enought to go on...but I wouldn't keep it as short as I chopped it down to. "but I didn't say a word... she was my friend, I didn't want her to hurt anymore than she already was, so I just hugged her. I was wrong." Dear Kris, ya know I love ya so I feel I can say what the hell is with the "..."'s Personally I didn't think they were needed and in my little'o'opinion they rarely are. I liked the way ended this one, it really was a powerful ending that was short yet extremely informative.Good offering Kris, strong beginning and ending but I think perhaps a rewrite of the middle might really bring this poem up to the Kris'ian standards that we here have all grown to love . Thanks for the read, take care,Trevor |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Elyse, I credit you for taking all the time you do in your reading of poems and the critiques you post. I edited this one quite a bit, ala-trevor, and I think you'll like it better. Thanks for your kind comments, Kris Mr. T, I always appreciate your in depth critiques, and this time, I even agree with you! It reads much better the way you suggested, and I have edited it...and I like it so much better now. As for the "..."s, you already know what my answer is to that...it remains the same as always (and I know they bug you, so I use them more than ever now ).Thank you, sir, for your comments, and suggestions. They really were extremely helpful...this time. Kris the poet's pen...gives to airy nothing A local habitation and a name ~ Shakespeare |
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kaile
since 2000-02-06
Posts 5146singapore |
Hi warmhrt glad to be the first to read your revised version...yes,it delivers a more powerful punch to the reader...also the reader can draw his own conclusions and offer a totally different interpretation... actually, i thought that the son was a deranged, almost-out-of-his-mind criminal(interpreted from the word "healthy") and his parents were worried for he had committed a serious crime and might be punished by the law severely imagine my surprise when i realised that this son was actually committing suicide! was amazed at how a poem can be interpreted differently.glad i read this...ciao n take care [This message has been edited by kaile (edited 05-29-2000).] |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
kaile, Thank you for your comments, however, I hope that you were being totally sarcastic in your "glee". The subject is nothing to kid around with...as I have stated before, it is the second leading killer of this country's young males. It is called by some an epidemic. Nothing to laugh about there. Reaching these people, and getting them to understand that there is help, ways to cope, and that there are others who feel the same...that they are not alone in the world...is but one of the goals of advocates for those with a disturbance of essential brain chemicals. Sorry, I'll step off the soapbox now. I do thank you again, kaile, for reading and for commenting.Kris< !signature--> the poet's pen...gives to airy nothing A local habitation and a name ~ Shakespeare [This message has been edited by warmhrt (edited 05-29-2000).] |
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Clara Junior Member
since 2000-05-27
Posts 21England, but moving to Sweden this year |
Hello there I read both the first and second posting of this and enjoyed both (if enjoyed is the right word for such a topic) but feel this one to be much better than the first I am no good as a critic, just knowing what I like, and having little knowledge on form etc so will not attempt to do that. I would like to add that I have found myself to be in the position you describe here in the past, and know how difficult it can be to choose the right words. Also I have had the pleasure of being able to convince at least 2 young people that this is not the way to solve their problems, so I agree with your 'soapbox' speech. Take care, and keep caring too. Clara |
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kaile
since 2000-02-06
Posts 5146singapore |
dear warmhrt,i meant glee cos i was amazed at the different ways a poem can be interpreted by different people(that's one reason why i try to write--to see how others feel differently about my work) No,i wasn't kidding around as you have said,this is a serious issue and i'm sorry for not making my intentions better known...will edit my post shortly ciao n take care |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Clara, Hi...don't believe our words have met before. Welcome to CA, if you haven't already been welcomed, that is. Thank you for reading, and for your very kind comments...the edited version is much better, I agree (thanks to Trev). You are right when you say this is a difficult situation for anyone to be in, but my point, the last line, is that people with any knowledge in this area should speak up in a situation like this...hurt feelings are nothing compared to the suffering of the person with an illness he/she has not accepted. Of course, there is the chance that without acceptance, and the effective treatment that could follow, more attempts will be made, perhaps even completed. Thank you, Clara. I can see you are a compassionate person, and I hope you are able to help more people. Kris the poet's pen...gives to airy nothing A local habitation and a name ~ Shakespeare |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
"krissy babey" ... omg .. and i was actually thinking of emigrating to Canada at one point .......Good Afternoon Kristine, not much to say about this i'm afraid. certainly i think the ending was the strongest part and for some reason i didn't much like: quote: but i can't quite put my finger on why. i think the best aspect of the poem by far was the fact that the speaker's sense of frustration at the situation came through loud and clear coupled also with a good deal of compassion... if that's what you were trying to achieve then you succeeded ... Philip |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Good Afternoon, Sir Philip, I thank-you so very much for reading my humble offering, and for saying that you approved. Although, I would request that when it is determined what it was that you could not put your finger on, you will promise to allow me to be the first to hear of it. *curtsies* With highest regards, Kris the poet's pen...gives to airy nothing A local habitation and a name ~ Shakespeare |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Well Philip, I think Canada has already filled its quota for smart ass Brits right now but I'll put in a good word for you with the Prime Minister and when an opening for a foriegn door mat comes up I'll tell him to give you a call. Hmmmrphfffff!!!!! Last time I ever post here while in a good mood, too much flak for having a little fun. Guess I'll go back to being my grumpy ol self again Mr. T "I pity the fool who messes with my poems!" |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Trev, I like you much better like this (in a good mood, joking around). All I ask is pleeeease don't call me "Krissy"....there is only have one person, a great aunt, who continues to call me that and I HATE it. As for baby...I'm sorry, but I'm not a baby, not a a girl...I wish I was and could live life over again knowing all I do now. Of course I can't, so everyone will just have to accept me for the woman I am. Kris the poet's pen...gives to airy nothing A local habitation and a name ~ Shakespeare |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
Kristine ma'am ~bow~ .. may i borrow your thread just to exchange a few short words with our cousin of the maple leaf ..... ..... ill-advised to use "Mr T" and "Prime Minister" in the same breath to a Brit .. the good Dennis springs immediately to mind ...lol .... "flak" .....lol..... that was a dart from a blow pipe with the dart removed and just the fluffy bit ... and blown softly at that luv ya trev ........ H & K's .....P |
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Jana Tovey Member
since 2000-05-30
Posts 257USA |
I thought the introductory stanza was grabbing and the tone taken in the second stanza must have been the source of your title. The rest of the poem expresses how you would feel, I think, in this situation. The expression of friendship and horror, mixed like a deadly coctail, is so realistic. The ending is grabbing. It says volumes...how the friend feels now for not speaking up. You can just imagine how the parents must feel. I liked this poem. It has the ring of a wake-up call for those who might end up in a similar predicament. |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Jana, I don't think we've had the pleasure of meeting before...nice to make your aquaintance. Thank you for your kind words. It feels so good when someone can get right to the marrow of your words, pulling out the thoughts and emotions that accompanied them onto the paper. I'll look up your work...I thought I saw a post or two from you. Thanks again, Kris the poet's pen...gives to airy nothing A local habitation and a name ~ Shakespeare |
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jenni Member
since 1999-09-11
Posts 478Washington D.C. |
kris-- nice work here, i really like the revisions. i guess i'm alone, though, in not liking your last line. in the last full stanza, the speaker remains silent, "not wanting her to hurt anymore than she already was," and so simply hugs her friend, but concludes "I was wrong." how is it "wrong" to hug a friend? i think it might be more accurate for the speaker to conclude that she should have done so much more. isn't that what you're really saying here? i know that you meant the last line to refer to the speaker's silence, not the hugging, but saying "i was wrong" immediately after saying "i just hugged her" seems a little cold, especially when the only other alternative suggested in the poem is to scream at the friend and rip through her denial. i guess i don't see it as a question of right or wrong, anyway; the poem really presents a crisis in compassion, and challenges us to give of ourselves when we see a friend in need, even if, in the short term, what we know we should give is not what the friend thinks is needed. by making it into a stark question of right or wrong, i think you wind up doing a disservice to the complexity of the situation, and ignoring the perhaps more important question of HOW to give of ourselves. just my opinion, ya know, kris.... anyway, something to think about, i guess. nice job bookending the poem with hugs in the first and last full stanzas, thought that was a nice touch. ok, i'll shut up now, lol. jenni [This message has been edited by jenni (edited 05-31-2000).] |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Hi jenni, If I didn't know better I'd swear you were related to Philip. Did I ever tell you I had a great-aunt named Jenny...sweetest woman in the world next to my grandmother. I often think of her when I see your name.Back to business...thank you for the kind comments, and I will attempt to answer your questions concerning some of the content. The line before the last says, "I JUST hugged her." Of course there's nothing wrong with a hug, but JUST is the key word. It leads to the last line, where the speaker decides he/she was wrong to not say anything. Although SCREAM is mentioned above, that is within the speaker's mind. We certainly don't do everything that comes to mind...if the speaker was compassionate enough to care about bringing any more hurt upon his/her friend, then I'm sure if words had been spoken, they, too, would have been compassionate. However, some words said in the kindest manner can still hurt very much. After all, which would be better...less hurt now and perhaps tremendous pain later, or some more hurt now and much less pain later? Hope I cleared that up...thanks again, jenni, Kris the poet's pen...gives to airy nothing A local habitation and a name ~ Shakespeare |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
quote: Depends i guess, no simple answer. quote: this needs a good deal of explanation Kris ... tell me - how can a neanderthal be related to a Goddess? ..... Philip |
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jenni Member
since 1999-09-11
Posts 478Washington D.C. |
hiya kris-- thanks for your reply! it's funny, i do the same thing with names, lol; i had a very sweet friend in college named kristine, and i often think of her when i see your name out here, "warm heart" would have been a good nickname for her, too. (i also used to date a guy named brad, but we won't go into what i think about seeing THAT name, lol). i know the word "just" in the second to last line is the operative word there, but, like i said, making the whole poem about what is the "right" way of dealing with the situation versus the "wrong" way just didn't do it for me. i guess it makes the piece come out too didactic, in my opinion. like i said, i guess i just don't see the issue here as one of "right" or "wrong". i think we all know "which would be better...less hurt now and perhaps tremendous pain later, or some more hurt now and much less pain later;" i think we sometimes don't choose the "more hurt now less pain later" approach in certain situations not because we don't know it is "right" but because it can be very, very difficult. saying this approach is right and that approach wrong, i guess, kind of states the obvious (to me, anyway), and doesn't dig into what i see as the real problem, the difficulty of pressing on, giving pain to a friend, even when you know in the long run it's more helpful. making the issue one of "right" or "wrong" also seems to make the piece almost entirely about the speaker, and not the speaker's role in the larger situation; it's the difference between asking "how did i do? was i right?" and "did i help?" look at it this way. if, in the last full stanza, the speaker had not "just" hugged the friend, but had gone further and had found the magic words that made the friend fully see and accept what was going on with her son, would you be happy with a last line that read "I was right"? anyway, EVEN IF we're going to talk about this in terms of what is "right" or "wrong," saying that the speaker's approach of "just" hugging the friend was "wrong" still bothers me. this is, perhaps, simply a curious, idiosyncratic way i look at things. maybe i stupidly or naievely look on the positive side of things, but i see it like the speaker did SOMETHING right with the hug, but just didn't do MORE right by trying to go further. just a different way of looking at it, i suppose. if the question is, "who starred in the movie musical 'top hat'?" and someone answers "fred astaire," i guess you could say they were "wrong" when the answer you're looking for is "fred astaire and ginger rogers," but i'd say they were right, they just didn't give the full answer, lol. now, if they said "gene kelly," or "gene kelly and debbie reynolds," they'd be wrong, lol. see what i mean? in the poem, i don't think it's fair to say the speaker is "wrong" for "just hugging," even though i realize that a "hug + something more" is "more right." lol, laughing at myself here, i know i'm silly. anyway, there ya go, that's just how it all strikes me. jenni p.s. to philip: i'm a "goddess"??? you really DON'T get out much, do ya? |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
nope jenni yer right .. kinda cave-bound here !! the next cave do a nice line in sabre tooth suits though if your interested .. ~grrrrrrroowwwlll~ |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Kris: Ahem ... if I may stick my nose in this little chat room for a second ... I liked this, Kris, and think the conversational tone (even the use of "alright" *grrrrrr*) lent strength to the piece. I didn't have the same problem as Jenni with the last line. I think "just" is an operative word but I think the unspoken "in this particular situation" is just as important to remember in the context of this poem. You are not making a broad sweeping statement about how to best approach a friend whose child has done an unthinkable thing ... you are writing about a very specific situation. I, therefore, have no problems with your "I was wrong" line because I think it is very possible to recognize when you reacted in a wrong way in on particular situation or another. Thanks for the read, Kris. Again, I liked your poem. Jim P.S. Jenni, I understand your frustration with the word "just" ... When Julia Roberts in "Pelican Brief" answered her law professor's question of why the majority opinion in Bowers v. Hardwick was wrong with "They just were", I nearly pulled my hair out! [This message has been edited by jbouder (edited 06-01-2000).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Well, I haven't read through this thread yet but I will say I'm not a big fan of 'just' as well: It's just poetry. or even worse, Mere poetry But anyway, Kris, I liked your poem and thought the last line was what created a certain strength to it. About the only thing I would request is that you take a little time and describe what the son was doing. I believe this will give a certain immediacy to the piece for the reader. What about using a kind of flash imagery piece separating the individual stanzas with short quick stills. A visual analogy would be something like what Quenton Tarrantino(sp?) does in 'From Dusk to Dawn' or some of the 'Millenium' shows or some of the flashes of hell in 'Event Horizon'. You may not have enjoyed any of these but I found it to be a powerful effect. Just some ideas, Brad |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Jimteach ...where ya been? Nice to see you, even if it is in a thread that's gone awry.Thanks for your positive comments...I feel better about the last line now. I agree with you about the word "just"...it is a very vague word. However, in this instance, all it means is "only", and sounded better...so I used it...I just used it. Thanks again, Kris Brad...nice to see you, too, but I sincerely hope that you're the last of them...I'm getting sick of this poem. Let's let it slide away now. I liked your suggestion about flashbacks. I did have more about what the son did in the initial post, but edited it down. It was too wordy. (See Trev's critique) Perhaps with a couple of lines italicized after the first and second stanzas, the flashback thing would work. But I'm not touching this thing for a while...it needs a rest. Thanks, Brad, I appreciate you taking the time to read and critique. Kris the poet's pen...gives to airy nothing A local habitation and a name ~ Shakespeare |
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Forrest Cain Member
since 2000-04-21
Posts 306Chas.,W.V. USA |
I know you want to put this baby to bed, but I have been gone and am just now catching up on my reading. I liked the rewrite much better than the original. Though after reading the original it took on more meaning. I knew it was about loss and an act of violence but thought it was maybe wife or child abuse. I wonder if a different title might give some suggestion as to what`s being grieving. This is indeed a serious subject and the best man at my wedding took his life a year ago. Enjoyed this alot. forrest |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Forrest, At first I was not going to reply to speed things along, but felt I should. I know I like it when others acknowledge my efforts in reading and commenting, so I will graciously thank you for your kind comments. Glad you took the time to read. Thank you again, Kris the poet's pen...gives to airy nothing A local habitation and a name ~ Shakespeare |
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