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Critical Analysis #1
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jenni
Member
since 1999-09-11
Posts 478
Washington D.C.

0 posted 2000-05-04 07:50 PM


a sun-glassed couple
hand in hand
we watch gulls crying
down again climbing
at least as beautiful as any laughing boy at play;
you are everything you feel beside the water.
he turns his practiced smile on me as
we walk along crystalline sand,
raw glass the image of our pain
naked footprints molding hollows
smothered by the sea;
the gulf, our gulf, a mirrored gleaming
of fragile, reflected sun.
eyes but inaccurately see,
only dream.


[This message has been edited by jenni (edited 05-08-2000).]

© Copyright 2000 jenni - All Rights Reserved
bboog
Member
since 2000-02-29
Posts 303
Valencia, California
1 posted 2000-05-04 09:11 PM


jenni,
    I liked this poem. It's a thoughtful piece and yet am not quite certain that I understood it. (I'm a little thick, so bear with me.)
    
I think (could be wrong) that the "gulf" in the poem wasn't just the "gulf of Mexico" but also (possibly) the separation that exists between the couple that on the surface seems to have it all together. The "hollows" of the sand resemble their hollow feelings. The pain is the piece of glass half-hidden in the sand.
  Suggestion: I think that perhaps the poem might distinguish the two a little more? Example
instead of:

a sun-glassed couple
hand in hand

Perhaps: Cool-looking couple
         sunglasses and tanned
She watches gulls crying
and wonders how much they sound like
a beautiful boy laughing
He sees gulls climbing
getting anything they want
anywhere they want by the water.

Back to the critique. By distinguishing the two people a little more, the raw glass begins to take shape. Their pain becomes more evident. then again, i could be totally off in my assessment!
best regards,
bboog


  

Forrest Cain
Member
since 2000-04-21
Posts 306
Chas.,W.V. USA
2 posted 2000-05-05 03:40 AM


Jenni I very much enjoyed this poem.
So sad when understanding has fled and
all we can do is watch a relationship die. . You are so sensitive and have a very  poetic way of showing this. I can tell you
from experience anyone with a practiced
smile is bad news. Again well written.

forrest


Poertree
Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359
UK
3 posted 2000-05-05 08:06 AM


jenni

i'm kind of busy on something right now ..lol.. but just must say, as usual, "wow"!, and also i thought bob and forrest, in slightly different ways, made some good inroads into a great "jenni" poem, simply stuffed with layers and meaning ..lol

You know i could probably write for quite a while on this piece, but i doubt i'll get to it in time before jim has explained all !!  

just a small point .. i wasn't too sure about bob's interpretation of the piece of glass "in the sand", rather i got the impression that you were driving at the "crystalline sand" actually BEING glass itself in its raw state  ... anyway ..whoa .. i'm starting to get into the poem already ..lol .. got something else to finish first ..

see ya!

P

Sudhir Iyer
Member Ascendant
since 2000-04-26
Posts 6943
Mumbai, India : now in Belgium
4 posted 2000-05-05 01:45 PM


Hey Jenni,

Brilliant last two words, the suspense of the dream of a couple hand-in-hand, with a lot of contradictions in between, made it exciting to read.

The whole set of words 'practiced' smile, 'crystalline' sand, etc.. added a nice dimension to the poem.

Nice work. Would have liked it to be more explored and expanded though, particularly in the middle, where you mention naked footprints...

Regards,
Sudhir

 In any moment of decision,
The best thing you can do is the right thing,
The next-best thing is the wrong thing,
And the worst thing you can do is nothing.
- Theodore Roosevelt

tom
Member
since 2000-01-26
Posts 90
s/w penna u.s.a.
5 posted 2000-05-05 03:57 PM


jenni
I feel their is somethine missing here,i see two lovers walking in a special place (their place?).Yes you are every thing you feel beside the water(to me peace,tranquillity).And yes when people are in their "special place" eyes can "inaccurately see only dream" on how they can stay(at least I do).I don't see where the pain is,and thats what confusing me.I to can be thick at times also.please explain.I did enjoy this.

  tom

ps am i the only one that chuckels when i see Forrest and jenni's name together(no offence intended)

 sticks and stones may break my bones,only if you hit me.

Poertree
Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359
UK
6 posted 2000-05-05 06:28 PM


jenni

Just decided this is one of your more "difficult" ones....lol.

For now I'll just say the words and phrases... reflections, inversions, mirror images, distortions, masking of things, spring to mind.

So:

"Sun-glassed" .... hidden

"Hand in hand" .... reflected inverted image

gull up and then down

his smile masking

reflections in "water", "crystalline" , "glass"

"Footprints" and their mirrored "hollows"

sea "smothering" ...masking

the geographical gulf and the personal one

the mirrored gleaming

the sun reflected

eyes

vision distorted by glass, by reflected water, by many things

first perceptions of someone distorted, eyes don't see accurately, they see what they want to see, they see their dreams

........... anyway that's a start I think ......lol..... long long way to go yet though .....

P  

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
7 posted 2000-05-05 11:08 PM


Initial reaction:
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

Jenni writes a beach poem with the word 'dream' in it. Is she intentionally trying to upset me.  

Second reaction:

loved: We watched gulls crying
       Down again climbing

didn't like so much: 'at least as beautiful as any laughing boy' -- too vague.  While the boy certainly suggests innocence, we have no idea what he's laughing at it.

I liked the rest of the poem, the twists and turns, intertwining symbols with the relationship work very well.  You create a solid scene that strongly paints the taste of lonliness even in togetherness.  You've dealth with this theme several times before, haven't you?

And we've debated this theme before, haven't we?

My argument remains the same. That a certain superficiality can often be the result of genuine feeling. Sometimes playing doesn't always mean being played.  Sometimes the reflection, the dream is the reality and the search for some form of genuine feeling is the myth.

Am I making any sense?

Okay, I'll let you get away with dream this time around because you do get away from the usual, "And then I woke up" not-so-very-surprising ending but be careful with that word.  

I enjoyed this poem,
Brad

jbouder
Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash
8 posted 2000-05-07 07:59 PM


Jenni:

I liked this poem very much and can't help but to marvel at you ability to not waste a single word (again ... are you sure you are a lawyer?).    

I think Philip is on the right track to interpreting this poem (atleast insofar as you intended it ... I know that is a silly thing to say but I think all the blame should be thrown Brad's way ... "All interpretations are equally valid", so he says).

I like your use of mirror images/imperfect copies throughout the poem but find myself in agreement with Brad on the "laughing boy" line.  So ... I guess what you get for me being so late to reading this is a big "nothing-new-to-offer".  But this is good and deserves a ride to the top.

Jim

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
9 posted 2000-05-07 09:51 PM


Jim,
I offered something new down in the English Workshop just because you wanted to bring it up again. Actually, I think you know where I'm going but I just wanted to make it clearer.

Brad

Poertree
Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359
UK
10 posted 2000-05-08 04:55 AM


"can't help but to marvel at your ability to not waste a single word"

....so true jim .. try copying her style and you'll find out just how true ..lol

"(again ... are you sure you are a lawyer?)."

how you can doubt that after the maulings she's given you in the past i simply can't imagine !!  

P  

jenni
Member
since 1999-09-11
Posts 478
Washington D.C.
11 posted 2000-05-08 04:46 PM


thanks everyone for your comments.  this one took me quite a while to write; i'm glad people were able to see most of the glass/mirror/distortions/masking stuff going on.  brad, sorry about this being a beach poem, but i started thinking about this a few months ago when i was in the caribbean, lol.  sorry also for using the word “dream,” but as i think you recognize, i’m using it more in the sense of a fantasy or wish.  As philip put it, eyes don’t see accurately, and they often only see what one wants to see.  

i was really just trying to play around with the imperfection of perceptions, and how both a limited perspective and the way one wants to see something can often mask what is really happening.  

tom, you say you don’t see the “pain” here, and in a way that's what i intended.  The pain is as yet unformed, lying in raw state in the crystalline sand (sand being what glass is made of).  naked footprints literally mold hollows in the sand, of course, as the two people walk along the beach; on a figurative level, i was trying to suggest that they are making molds in which glass (the future pain) later will be made, and saying that the trail of this relationship leads to nothing (or leads to hollowness; or empty sex gets you nowhere, something like that, lol). that the relationship has problems, i tried to foreshadow with the man's "practiced smile," and also with the chaotic up-and-down flight of the gull.  This “figurative reality”, however, is smothered by the sea, beside which the speaker, at least, is so enchanted.  The sea (the gulf) is both the source of the enchantment and the metaphorical “distance” or difference between people, in each sense responsible for the attraction.  But the metaphorical distance, though they are aware of it, they don’t really see; from their vantage point on the beach beside the enchanting water, it is a mirror, showing them only reflected, fragile light, not the “true” light or sun (which they do not want to see anyway, hence the sunglasses).  They see what they want to see.  alternatively, since no-one can see into the future (even when it is written, as it were, in footprints in the past), they see only what they can.

brad and jim, about the line "at least as beautiful as any laughing boy," you have a point, it is a little vague.  i think now i should say something like:

"at least as beautiful as any laughing boy at play"

what i was trying to do there is suggest a kind of carefree, fun innocence, similar in one sense to the gull in the previous line (the gull being, in my mind at least, a whole bunch of different things, lol), but with the contrasting feel of the words "crying" and "laughing."  

anyway, there's a lot going on in this little piece, perhaps too much, and i'm still screwing around with it.  thanks, everyone, for your kind words!

jenni

p.s. to tom:  you chuckle when you see "Forrest's and jenni's name together"? um, no offense taken i assure you, but huh?  what are you talking about?  

p.s.s to philip:  "maulings"?  lil' ol' me???  i've never mauled anyone, least of all jim, lol.  

Poertree
Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359
UK
12 posted 2000-05-08 06:30 PM


"p.s.s to philip:  "maulings"?  lil' ol' me???  i've never mauled anyone, least of all jim, lol."

er......... er..... !

ok i'll shut up now ...

P

jbouder
Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash
13 posted 2000-05-08 07:25 PM


Jenni:

One of your maulings is long overdue.  What else can we have a disagreement over?    About your poem, sure there was very much going on in this little poem but I certainly wouldn't call it "too much".  That is what I meant by noting your ability to not waist a word ... this type of precision is important in writing poetry.  Just a quick stop to mention this.

Later.

Jim

P.S.  "Forrest" and "Jenny" were the main characters in "Forrest Gump", by the way.  

tom
Member
since 2000-01-26
Posts 90
s/w penna u.s.a.
14 posted 2000-05-08 10:58 PM


jenni
Cool,I did'nt see that and now i'm even more impressed.This is a good piece of work indeed.
As far as the ps, I have a different sence of humor than 99% of the planet don't mind me I chuckel when the wind blows.

  tom



 sticks and stones may break my bones,only if you hit me.

bboog
Member
since 2000-02-29
Posts 303
Valencia, California
15 posted 2000-05-09 01:37 AM


And here I'd thought Tom meant "Jenni's forrest" similar to "Jenny's bush" or pubics or something similarly offensive and/or in the gutter. (I can hear Tom laughing)

To Jenni, I read your answer to Tom about what he had mentioned about "pain" and I agree with Tom that it comes up too suddenly. I think you need to add a line or two. I guess when I had read your poem the first time, I had concluded that the pain between this couple was not having children . The "laughing boy" line and gulls "crying" gave me that impression. I imagined that she wants to have them and he doesn't. He still wants to play and she doesn't. Her bio-clock is ticking. So, reading it again, even after reading your explanation to Tom, the line "our pain" still seems slightly awkward. Your explanation seems to imply that it's almost like a game that these two are playing, doesn't it? and perhaps their breakup won't be so painful if the relationship wasn't very meaningful to either one. So, there may or may not be pain involved. Or they may or may not be creating any pain where they are stepping. Does that make any sense? If there is going to be pain involved, I think it needs to be stated more clearly is all.

For what's it's worth.
best regards,
bboog



[This message has been edited by bboog (edited 05-09-2000).]

Trevor
Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700
Canada
16 posted 2000-05-09 02:04 AM


Hi Jenni,

"a sun-glassed couple
hand in hand
we watch gulls crying
down again climbing
at least as beautiful as any laughing boy at play;"

I liked "sun-glassed couple" and the picture you paint. Cple of suggestions, consider omitting "we" in the third line and "at least" in the last one. I also liked the metaphor of gulls and children laughing and playing.

"you are everything you feel beside the water.
he turns his practiced smile on me as
we walk along crystalline sand,
raw glass the image of our pain
naked footprints molding hollows
smothered by the sea;"

I really liked the last couple lines in this section and the "practised smile". I thought the "raw glass" line didn't completely work and the poem would carry the same weight and thoughts without it.

"the gulf, our gulf, a mirrored gleaming
of fragile, reflected sun.
eyes but inaccurately see,
only dream."

The ending took me a few reads to really grip, especially the last two lines, think it was because you switched "but" and "eyes", still I liked the ending and thought you wrapped it up nicely. Good stuff, thanks for the read, take care,
Trevor


jenni
Member
since 1999-09-11
Posts 478
Washington D.C.
17 posted 2000-05-09 04:49 AM


boog--

thanks for your reply!  it's interesting what you say about the pain business "coming too suddenly."  what i was trying to do i guess was show that it is there from the beginning.  at the time of the walk, it seems a lovely, innocent thing -- crystalline sand -- but it is there nonetheless.  i really wasn't concerned about showing what the pain would be, exactly; not having or wanting children is a good interpretation, but there could be a million others.  that there would, in fact, be pain of some kind i intended to suggest with the "practiced smile," which, to me, has an element of deception, something likely to lead to emotional pain.  (as forrest says, anyone with a practiced smile has gotta be bad news, lol.)  like i said before, one's inability to stay out of a painful relationship is caused by one's inability to see into the future, by one's inability to see how disparate character traits in two people will interact over time, by how we sometimes want to see things, by simple optimism and wishful thinking.  

you say i seem to imply in my explantion above that the people are playing games with each other.  i don't see that in my explanation at all, although i do think a reader might get that from the poem itself, and it is something that has troubled me about the piece.  basically, i guess, the piece is written from the viewpoint of a woman who actually can (or thinks she can) look ahead, sees the bad coming, but doesn't seem to mind too much; she is still "everything she feels beside the water."  it could be seen as a kind of curious detachment, a wilfull donning of sunglasses, as it were.  i can see how you might read that as game playing, but wilfull self-deception, or seeing only what one wants to see, is part of the point of the whole poem, and it happens frequently to bad result.  what starts off perhaps as a game may turn out to be quite real, with real consequences.  

perhaps the piece might be better in the third person, but i hate to write in the third person, lol.


trevor! --

thanks for your comments.  i've missed you actually, can you believe it?  especially when you come back and say nice things about a poem of mine, lol.  sorry the "raw glass" stuff doesn't work for you, but glad you liked the piece overall.  your comments are always appreciated.

jenni

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