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Critical Analysis #1
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jbouder
Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash

0 posted 2000-04-25 11:40 AM


Dust encrusted, cracked and lidless plate-glassed eyes
Reveal the gutted, soiled and lifeless void
That once upon a better time enjoyed
The warmth of love and light that fortifies
A home; but now an empty husk belies
Imprinted shades that haunt the now destroyed
House as if youthful happiness that buoyed
The sagging ceiling trusses still defies
The years that mark the crumbling gray facade
Staring in row-house death beyond the broken
Porch to the treeless street that wears with pride
The title “Incubator Row” as God-
Cursed silence sadly echoes the unspoken
Loss of the revenant that peers inside.

< !signature-->

 Jim

"If I rest, I rust."  - Martin Luther






[This message has been edited by jbouder (edited 04-30-2000).]

© Copyright 2000 Jim Bouder - All Rights Reserved
Ted Reynolds
Member
since 1999-12-15
Posts 331

1 posted 2000-04-25 03:12 PM


That's solid, Jim.  I've no time now, but I'll get back to it.  Cripes, it's one single sentence, without the slightest feel of stretching for it!
bboog
Member
since 2000-02-29
Posts 303
Valencia, California
2 posted 2000-04-25 05:01 PM


Jim~
   Hmm. Let me sort this out. Perhaps a period after "enjoyed" and "facade" and "row"? And perhaps change "revenant" to "widower" or "divorcee"? I think I get the sad picture of this poem. Best part (to me) the metaphor of the broken house.
best regards,
bboog

tom
Member
since 2000-01-26
Posts 90
s/w penna u.s.a.
3 posted 2000-04-26 12:00 PM


jbouder
I read this a few times,when I close my eyes I can see children playing on a rope swing in the front yard,you know, that surreal vision you get. I think somethings missing,but I can't put my finger on it(must be the cold meds. I'm on).Maybe why the writer was there.I did enjoy this though,it did paint a gray and lasting image.

tom

 I dreamed I was a dreamer in a dream



Elyse
Member
since 2000-04-16
Posts 414
Apex (think raleigh) NC
4 posted 2000-04-26 12:15 PM


sorry to use your space this way, but ive been making comments and theyre not showing up!  cuz i know i had something brilliant to say about how and why i liked your poem, but now its gone, and i cant think of what it was.  i think this happened to me one other time on a different poem. I went back to see if there was a response and my comment was gone! please tell me its my computer being evil - im too young to loose my mind!
Tim Gouldthorp
Member
since 2000-01-03
Posts 170

5 posted 2000-04-26 01:49 AM


I like the opening words, "Dust encrusted"
Ted Reynolds
Member
since 1999-12-15
Posts 331

6 posted 2000-04-26 03:48 PM


This has the strong images I am coming to expect from Jim, but I want to speak here about his sounds.  This poem does wonderful things with consonants.  Read it aloud once, paying attention to how your mouth is moving as well as to the sounds it makes.  If you don't feel an almost sensual pleasure, like stroking rough and varied surfaces, I think you're missing something.  (Only the 3rd and 4th lines are weaker in this virtue, Jim.)  

I think you might want to hyphenate "God-Cursed silence."

Also, having to run for my dictionary to look up "revenant" broke the flow for me.  

Otherwise, superb.

[This message has been edited by Ted Reynolds (edited 04-26-2000).]

Forrest Cain
Member
since 2000-04-21
Posts 306
Chas.,W.V. USA
7 posted 2000-04-26 05:58 PM


This requires more than one reading and
a slow pondering of emotion and rhythm. I  
liked it much better after the third read.
The parts or phrases I liked best
"imprinted shades"  and " staring in
row-house death etc." Thanks for sharing
and remember I can tell you what I like
and maybe why, but beyond that...

jbouder
Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash
8 posted 2000-04-27 12:20 PM


Thanks for your replies and thoughts on my poem.  I wrote this after I visited the row-house where I grew up in a lower-class neighborhood in urban Pennsylvania after being away for 10 years doing school and work stuff around the United States and during that time my parents sold the house.  My parents were always careful to maintain the house well and I was a bit surprised to see the sorry state of the place that has so many pleasant memories for me.

Bob, "revenant" is the word I was going for and those that either knew the word's meaning or ran to the dictionary know (I hope) that it is the right word to describe the person peering in the window.

Tom, surreal is how my visit felt to me so I'm glad my words evoked that image.  Thank you for your reply.  No front yard in a row-house community, I'm afraid (not even a plot of grass ... just sidewalk and blacktop.  No trees either unless you count the telephone poles.  

Elyse, if you remember the brilliance of what you wanted to say feel free to let me know.  I can't help but to feel a little teased.  If you continue to have problems, post something in the Q & A forum and Ron will see what he can do to help you.  I am still interested in why you liked and and what you liked about it, by the way.

Tim, that is more than many people like about my writing.  

Ted, thanks for your detailed reply.  I have been trying to pay more attention to sound in my poetry (perhaps it is Poe's influence or maybe Blake's ... I'm not sure).  Your noticing meant much to me.  Thank you.  I will also think about what I can do to strengthen the Lines 3 & 4.

Forrest (last but not least), I appreciate your taking the time to give this multiple reads.  Some of the most enjoyable poems for me are those I have to mull over for some time, reading and re-reading.  It is difficult to write poetry like this sometimes and makes prolific writing almost impossible for me but, hey, that's the way it goes for some of us, huh?  Thanks for your kind reply.

Jim

Craig
Member
since 1999-06-10
Posts 444

9 posted 2000-04-27 03:33 PM


Hello Jim

This is my sixth attempt at writing this reply, the first was a war and piece effort on how this poem reminded me of a sonnet, the second was a line by line Trevoresque slice and dice job with full macro lens dissection in glorious Braddavision. The third consisted of a single word that began with W and ended with OW! (Or would have if I’d posted it). The fourth was a meander through the times and thoughts that your poem conjured, the fifth was your poem re-written how I would have written it, a guaranteed way not to win friends or influence people.  
After all my wasted attempts I’m left with the bare bones of each , so here they are.

I still can’t get away from the sonnet feel, is it the meter? Is that what you were going for? Or is it the feeling that the lines have been packed to attain the correct length? Most sonnets, even the best ones, can sound that way because of the fixed and regular meter.

Words that might need looking up are OK by me, I enjoy new ones, but they can be overused, you’ve chosen wisely with one, two would be fine if the poem was good enough (you could have stretched to two), three would have me guessing instead of looking them up.  

WOW! (Keep your hands away from that bottle Jim).

I was with you all the way at the start, after the lidless line I was expecting a dual meaning face/body/house poem, drawing parallels as to the nature and similarity of both as they age. Then you went all specific on me and burst the bubble, I have memories of places that your poem reminded me of, in that respect it scored a hit, if that could have been tied to people as well I’d have been doubly happy.

The complete re-write I’ve omitted,  it would serve no purpose apart from weakening my case for posting critiques by proving once and for all that I don’t know what I’m talking about. That said I hope you don’t mind a couple of lines that might (not) get you in the pruning mood.  

Encrusted, cracked, the lidless plate-glassed eyes
Reveal a gutted, soiled and lifeless void
That once upon a better time enjoyed

One last thing, I did like your poem, I just thought that while I was here I’d push the boat all the way out, do an Oliver and demand MORE from it.

Thank you for giving me the chance to read and reply.

Craig
< !signature-->

 Yes, I admit your general rule. That every poet is a fool:
But I myself may serve to show it. That every fool is not a poet.




[This message has been edited by Craig (edited 04-27-2000).]

jbouder
Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash
10 posted 2000-04-29 10:25 PM


Craig:

Thanks for the time you spent on your critique.  Your input was much appreciated.  You probably got the "sonnet feel" from this one because it is a sonnet ... an Italian sonnet to be more precise.  I took some liberties with the meter in places, adding an extra accented syllable to the first line and substituting trochaic feet for the typical iambic feet at the beginnings of a few lines.

It is interesting that you felt disappointed that I did not go for some clever double meaning/personification/metaphor with this poem considering I was writing about a very real house that happened to be the one where I spent most of my childhood years.  I like your suggestions and will give them some careful consideration.  The changes are subtle but they do seem to work well for me.

I never mind a careful and detailed critique, by the way, and, again, I want to mention that I appreciated yours.  Thanks.

Jim  

jenni
Member
since 1999-09-11
Posts 478
Washington D.C.
11 posted 2000-04-30 04:25 AM


hey there, jim, remember me?  

i liked this one a lot!  i can't add much to what's already been said.  i loved your word choice throughout, except "revenant", lol; i know what it means and it's used properly, of course, but i can't get away from the feeling that it somehow seems out of place or strikes the wrong kind of note.  it seems a rather cold, erudite, "learned" word to describe someone (even yourself) seeing his boyhood home in the condition you describe.  perhaps the problem is in the beginning of that line, with "grief" being the only word explicitly describing the speaker's feelings (although his feelings can be inferred, perhaps a bit more fully, from the descriptive passages preceding).  just my opinion, of course, for what it's worth (still only 2 cents, btw, i haven't raised my rates, lol).  

the fact of it being a single sentence is also a little off-putting (again, in my most humble opinion).  although the piece is grammatically correct, i think you lose some impact when you go from modifying the shades (those that haunt the house), jump to an extended similie with youthful happiness lost, modifying first happiness (the happiness that bouyed the trusses and still defies the years), then modifying years (the years that mark the facade), then the facade (the facade that stares on death beyond the porch to the street), and then the street (the street that wears its title with pride), before jumpimg back to the "main" story with the silence (which echoes the speaker's grief while the windowshades from 7-8 lines back continue to haunt the house), and then finally modifying grief (the grief of the revenant) and revenant (the revenant peering inside) -- all with a few other minor detours along the way, lol.  i don't know; like i said, i think it detracts somewhat from the emotional impact of the piece, but cool and detached were what you were striving for, no doubt.  i remember brad had a single-sentence sonnet a while back that bothered me too, lol, maybe i'm just not a single-sentence-sonnet fan.  

another thing that just occurred to me, i thought the italian sonnet was really supposed to be octet and sestet, with the thematic turn at the beginning of the sestet, line 9 (or the last line of the octet), but your turn is more like in line 5, as i see it?  anyway, i like the italian rhyme scheme better than the shakespearean, and you do that perfectly; who gives a hoot, really, where the turn is as long as there is one, lol.  

nice job, jim, i really enjoyed this one.  thanks for sharing it with us.

jenni

Craig
Member
since 1999-06-10
Posts 444

12 posted 2000-04-30 10:07 AM


Wow! (am I allowed to say that here?), great critique Jenni

I’m with Jenni on the Italian/Petrarchan sonnet thingy, I have no idea what she is talking about but there are enough big words in there to convince this half-wit (me) that she’s right.   Then again I’m the one who thought the rhyme scheme was wrong for an Italian Sonnet so perhaps I better stay out of this or risk showing everyone exactly how much I DON’T know about writing poetry.  

Just a minor point for thought though, how much change is permissible before a form becomes so different from the original that it ends up in fact a completely different form? ( I’m pushing for the Bouderian Sonnet to be recognized as a separate form here).  

Thanks again for giving me the chance to read and reply
< !signature-->

 Yes, I admit your general rule. That every poet is a fool:
But I myself may serve to show it. That every fool is not a poet.




[This message has been edited by Craig (edited 04-30-2000).]

jbouder
Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash
13 posted 2000-04-30 03:11 PM


Jenni:

Wow (echoing Craig)!  That was a great critique.  You did point something out (maybe unwittingly) about my use of the word "Grief" in the last line.  Now I am not so crazy about using that word there and will probably change it (I think it gives away too much, actually).

I knew the thematic turn was going to be a problem with this one because of the approach I took.  I wanted to try to communicate a continuously moving zoom in then out then in again picture and I realized early on that the placement of the thematic turn was going to be a casualty.  I probably should try to get the placement of the turn right and may try sometime soon.  Thanks for noticing that.

Since when, by the way, did lawyers start appreciating short sentences? Are you sure you are really a lawyer?  

Craig:

"Just a minor point for thought though, how much change is permissible before a form becomes so different from the original that it ends up in fact a completely different form? ( I’m pushing for the Bouderian Sonnet to be recognized as a separate form here)."

Hey, you asked the question so you are going to have to sit through the answer!    Actually, I can make the answer somewhat brief ... the answer is: It depends on who you ask.  Is a piece of writing with 51 iambic feet and 49 anapestic feet iambic or anapestic or neither?  People actually debate this stuff, believe it or not.  I have been looking at many of the different views on the matter but am personally undecided.

I really don't have a problem with variations in iambic verse as long as there appears to be a good reason for it.  I think sound is a big part of that good reason (paying attention Jenni?).  Generally speaking, a line beginning with an accented syllable comes across stronger than one that begins with an unstressed syllable.  If you want to ease into your subject go with an unstressed beginning.  If you want to plow right into the thick of it go with a stressed syllable.  Even Shakespeare took considerable liberties, at times, with iambic verse in his sonnets.  Jenni and I actually got into a debate once upon a time about that very subject (and if you think the Ogre is scary ... *shiver* ... try debating someone twice as smart as Brad and who looks 1000X better in a skirt!).  

There are many other tricks you can play with syllable length, word sound, and meter that I am only beginning to appreciate.  I think, as a general rule, it is good to adhere as closely as possible to the standard conventions and then begin experimenting to see what the result ends up being.  For the obsessive personalities, it really is a lot of fun.  

Oh, and by the way, I like the sound of the Bouderian Sonnet but will wait until I have written something worthy of the title.  Maybe after Norton does a Critical Edition of my poetry we can start calling some of my sonnets "Bouderian".  Deal?    


Later.

Jim

Forrest Cain
Member
since 2000-04-21
Posts 306
Chas.,W.V. USA
14 posted 2000-04-30 05:40 PM


Jim a revisit to try and understand why I liked what I like. Much clearer now. Imprinted shades  ie. newly-wed watching
anxiously for her husband, the kids watching
for dad,  the memory of things from that
window. Without question a neighborhood has
a life span and the faster it goes the faster
it goes.

Glad I revisted
forrest

jenni
Member
since 1999-09-11
Posts 478
Washington D.C.
15 posted 2000-05-01 02:16 PM


jim--

anyone twice as smart as brad would be scary, indeed, lol, but it ain't me.  and i don't know about looking "1000x" better than brad in a skirt either; this came up once before too, and brad insisted he had really great legs, lol.

glad to see you're still on the trail of compiling "jim bouder's acceptable variations," lol.  but whatever happened to the bouderian quattroseptet?  weren't you going to try another ode to ricky martin...did i miss it?  

i like your change of "grief" in the last line to "loss," that's a much, much better word there, even if you retained "revenant," lol.  

again, nice job.

jenni

jbouder
Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash
16 posted 2000-05-01 03:02 PM


Forrest:

I am glad you revisited my poem and it seems you understand what I was trying to say very well.  I, for one, enjoy poetry that brings me back to try to understand it better and consider your revisit a very welcome compliment.  Thanks again.

Jenni:

"anyone twice as smart as brad would be scary, indeed, lol, but it ain't me."

A humble lawyer who appreciates brevity ... I think I'm gonna faint ...   I'm not going to comment, by the way, on how nice Brad's legs are, okay?

I'm over Ricky Martin so my next Bouderian Quattroseptet is not likely to be about him.  "Blue (Da Ba Dee)" by Eiffel something or other or "Maria Maria" by Santana are starting to tear at my nerves but we'll see.  When are you going to try to write one of my Quattroseptets?  

To the poem, I am glad you liked the change of "Grief" to "Loss" ... after you mentioned it I began to think "Grief" overstated the message I was aiming to drive home.  Sorry you didn't like "revenant" (I didn't think it was such a lofty word).  Actually, when I was in high school I was very much the D&D nerd and "revenant" is a word that stuck with me for the past 15 years.  I thought it fit pretty well, considering my prior reference to shades.  Maybe I was wrong ... nah ... couldn't be.  

Thanks again Jenni.

Jim

bboog
Member
since 2000-02-29
Posts 303
Valencia, California
17 posted 2000-05-01 07:42 PM


Jim~
   Revisting this old house again, it does seem to flow better than before. The reason I originally thought "widower" or "divorcee" would work better than "revenant" was the grief combined with the "God-cursed-silence" line. It seemed like such a strong line that it seemed to beg the question "why?" Or what happened here that causes even the silence to curse God? And if it is a widower than the house might serve as a metaphor for a happier life that suddenly went downhill and led to that "God-cursed silence".
  Anyway, good tweaking.
bboog

Poertree
Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359
UK
18 posted 2000-05-02 09:46 AM


hey .. hey .. lol

this is quite like old times .. just want to say "Great Poem" jim .. and also, I agree with everything jenni says and nothing that jim and brad say ................ oh ooops Brad didn't open his mouth on this one .. well i still disagree anyway ....  

Brad's legs .. short skirts ... geez !!  lol .... back soon if this level of debate continues ....  

Philip

[This message has been edited by Poertree (edited 05-02-2000).]

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