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max
New Member
since 2000-02-17
Posts 5


0 posted 2000-02-20 09:32 AM


Catharsis

Tamar, gentle creature,
innocence lost in ugly times,
stippled by the blackness of depravity.
Who could ask that you give your love away,
breeder of pigs and father of cruelty.
Your hair is the moment the sun rose this morning,
and the sky is blue as your eyes.
Come to the river and wash
the stench from your skin,
bathe in the ice clear water.


© Copyright 2000 max - All Rights Reserved
Tony Di Bart
Member
since 2000-01-26
Posts 160
Toronto, Canada
1 posted 2000-02-20 09:55 AM


Hello and welcome.  I enjoyed the imagery in your poetry although it is a little vauge to me what exactly you are talking about.  

I like the follwing line

Your hair is the moment the sun rose this morning,

However the next line just takes away from the above line
and the sky is blue as your eyes.

The second last line is a very strong image and that is where I would have ended it.  YOu already tell us that you are going to the river and the reader can infer from the last two lines that you are going to bath in the river.  If it is important that we know that the water is clear and cold i would incorporated that into the two previous lines some how.


Trevor
Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700
Canada
2 posted 2000-02-20 11:02 AM


Hello and welcome to Critical Analysis.

To be honest I found this poem to be vague. It seemed to only hint at things but never really give the reader a handle on what you are trying to say. My interoretation of the poem was that "Tamar" is a prostitute who was forced to sell herself because of poverty because of the lines:
"innocence lost in ugly times,
stippled by the blackness of depravity.
Who could ask that you give your love away,",
which were pretty solid lines except I didn't think "blackness" aptly describes depravity...unless of course you are speaking of those deprived of sight.

"breeder of pigs and father of cruelty."
This part made me curious if you were talking about a man or a woman.

"Your hair is the moment the sun rose this morning,
and the sky is blue as your eyes."

I found this part really cliched.

"Come to the river and wash
the stench from your skin,
bathe in the ice clear water."

By this point I really didn't understand what the stench was from and could only guess it was about prostitution.

I liked the opening line, thought it worked well in helping to portray a comparison between beauty and "ugly", though I think it might have been a little more solid if you had expanded on this before going into the "innocence lost..." type of lines.

I agree with what Tony said about maybe ending the poem with the second last line.

Anyways, not quite sure what this poem is about so if you feel like it perhaps you could elaborate for us. Thanks for the read, hope you enjoy this forum and take care,
Trevor



max
New Member
since 2000-02-17
Posts 5

3 posted 2000-02-21 11:54 PM


Thanks for the replies -I see this site as a good place for me to post-and tell me if Im wrong-but the openness is refreshing -that is -I can write something today-and post -and it doesn t necessarily follow any thread-
and posts of all talents and abilities are welcome.Ill try to comment more than post.
Given that is true-my poem was inspired by the Biblical story of Tamar -daughter in law of Judah-Genesis 38. I'll leave you to read it.
That's why I didn't feel it was necessary to
expand in the first few lines. I may be wrong on this point but I have read other poets that use classic references-assume the reader to understand the reference-even gain some impact by it-but I'm not sure of accepted practise in this regard.
Tamar is obvioulsy dead -so the black and ugly times are really old and suggestive of calling through time-as is the language of the last three lines-the ice clear water-seemed suggestive of ritual repetition and a kind of surreal attempt -how can something be ice clear? Seems vague now lol
Hope that helps in understanding-now in light of this -can it be a better poem?

jbouder
Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash
4 posted 2000-02-22 12:44 PM


Max:

Welcome to Critical Analysis.  Before I read your comment I suspected this was a reference to the biblical Tamar.  I remembered a little bit about the story but had to go back and reread it in order to get my facts straight.  That said, I think this was an excellent summary of the largely unspoken feelings and thoughts of Tamar.  The Bible narrative describes her actions more than anything else.

"Tamar, gentle creature,
innocence lost in ugly times,
stippled by the blackness of depravity."

Tamar's first husband died, her brother-in-law, who according to custom was to take the place of his brother as Tamar's husband, refused to do so and was striken dead, and several other events led to her being asked to live as a widow with her father with the promise from her father-in-law to offer his next son her hand when he came of age.  The rest of the story is just as colorful.  I thought "ugly times, stippled with the blackness of depravity" is an excellent description of Tamar's world.

"Who could ask that you give your love away,
breeder of pigs and father of cruelty."

I am wondering if this comment is directed by Tamar to Judah or to God?  The meaning seems ambiguous here.

"Your hair is the moment the sun rose this morning,
and the sky is blue as your eyes.
Come to the river and wash
the stench from your skin,
bathe in the ice clear water."

I agree with Trevor that the stench here could refer to the stench of prostitution in Tamar's case but I also think that it could refer to the ritual clensing after giving birth to her two sons that were conceived by deceiving her father-in-law into believing she was a prostitute.

I think there is a little bit of ambiguity here that could be cleared up.  Referencing well known historical/biblical/literary characters is fine in my book.  I think it stretches the interpreter to better understand the thoughts the poet is trying to convey.  Tamar is a fine example but I think if you referenced Perez or Zerah, then the reference would have been overly vague.  Just my humble opinion, however.

Good job here.

Jim




[This message has been edited by jbouder (edited 02-22-2000).]

max
New Member
since 2000-02-17
Posts 5

5 posted 2000-02-23 05:41 AM


I appreciate the reply and the affirmation-I liked this one too-and it has opened up some possibilities for resource material in the classics.
I want to share a few paragraphs  in a book I'm reading "Tragedy Is Not Enough-by Karl Jaspers that dealt with catharsis for your enjoyment:

"Why are things the way they are? What is man? What leads him on? What is guilt? What is fate?What are the odinations valid among men, and where do they come from? What are the gods?
These questions search for a road to gods who are just and good, to the one God. But as man travels along the road, tradition slowly disintegrates. It cannot measure up to the new standards of right, goodness and omnipotence as they become increasingly rational. Skepticism is the end of this high-minded search that is sustained by the contents of tradition brought to their utmost purity and beauty.
In this dramatic re-examination of tradition-acted out at the sacred festivals in honour of Dionysys -the poet wills and achieves something more than man's earlier delight in the untiring representation of nature , men, and gods. Of that delight Hesiod had sung, praising the Muses:
Aye, though fresh troubles have crazed a man til he knows
nothing but dread and despair, should a singer praise,
as the Muses' servant, the glory of ancient days,
the heroes and blessed gods of Olympus-crest,
the man will forget that he ever was darkly distressed,
such powers of healing to gifts of the Muses belong.

Tragedy wants more: the catharsis of the soul. Admittedly, even Aristotle does not make clear to us just what this catharsis is. This much is certain:it is an experience that touches the innermost being of each man,. It makes him more deeply  receptive to reality, not merely as a spectator, but as a man who is personally involved. It makes truth a part of us by cleansing us of all that in our everday experience is petty, bewildering, and trivial-all that narrows us and makes us blind."


dbarbera
New Member
since 2000-02-22
Posts 8
Dallas, TX USA
6 posted 2000-02-24 07:18 AM


This poem had dark imagery despite the sunshine and sky--I felt an underlying current of another story--a horrible story--but it was a little vague--It sure felt like it was heading somewhere--I lost the thought--maybe it was intended as such--a thought starter
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