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Pushing Buttons
| Critical Analysis #1 |
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Pushing Buttons |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563
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Exchanges devised in machination, Systematically organized...Skinner-like, Generating conditioned responses, Ringing bells, buzzers, electricity, Milgram at Yale, Validation of willingness, To violate one's convictions, For pecuniary reward, To consciously inflict torment, Follow nonsensical instruction, Constant reminder...pushing, Empirical aggression machines, Though the targets cry out, Pound on the walls, They continue. As do we all, Fingering...examining, Then depressing those weak spots, We feel will elicit the response Of our choosing. From the time We are babes, Supposedly innocent, We learn this art, And practice it, Unwittingly. Kristine P.S. All of the subjects in the Milgram study were male. Just thought I'd point that out to clarify it a bit.< !signature--> there's a hell of a good universe next door;lets go ~ e. e. cummings [This message has been edited by warmhrt (edited 02-16-2000).] |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Kris: Passions goes psycho! I mean ... psychological!  Let me brush off my meager memories of 12 credit hours of college psychology and see what I can do with this.Actually, Kris, I think this a poignant look into human nature (Brad, take note here) and why I know you cannot, at heart, be the Marxist you jest of being.  "Exchanges devised in machination, Systematically organized...Skinner-like," B. F. Skinner, if I remember correctly, created the "Skinner Box". He used this to do experiments in conditioned responses on mice, particularly on the effects of reward and punishment on behavior. "Generating conditioned responses, Ringing bells, buzzers, electicity, Milgram at Yale, Validation of willingness, To violate one's convictions, For pecuniary reward, To consciously inflict torment, Follow nonsensical instruction, Constant reminder...pushing, Empirical aggression machines, Though the targets cry out, Pound on the walls, They continue." I think this section is difficult to understand without reading the entire section because, quite simply, it appears to be a description of the details of Milgram's experiments. I am not specifically familiar with the Milgram studies but you provide enough information that, assuming it is accurate, I am not left in the dark. "As do we all, Fingering...examining, Then depressing those weak spots, We feel will elicit the response Of our choosing." Now begins your application of Milgram's study. Simply that we all "push the buttons" that tend to benefit us the most and the feelings and physical well being of others tends to take a back seat. I suppose examples could be (1) relatively passive -- getting behind the wheel of a car after having too much to drink because you don't want the added expense of paying for a cab or the aggrivation of having to go back to the bar to get your car. In order to appease one's selfishness, innocents are unnecessarily put at risk or (2) intentional -- backstabbing someone at work to get the promotion. But THEN you broaden the application, effectively using Milgram's findings as an argument for "nature" in the "nature vs. nurture" debate on human nature. "From the time We are babes, Supposedly innocent, We learn this art, And practice it, Unwittingly." The "unwittingly" is, I think, a word of paramount importance to you here. I think you are taking Milgram's study to the next level here, suggesting that it is human nature to be selfish to the extent that we are willing to cause others harm to insure that we are willing to get what we want. Thanks, Kris. May I use this to aid me in my neverending struggle to educate the infidels who scream "nurture, nurture, nurture"? Thanks for the thought-provoking read, Kris. I needed that.Jim P.S. I know I've missed something. Enlighten me. [This message has been edited by jbouder (edited 02-16-2000).] |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Jimteach, No...I think you have a good grasp on the intention of the poem. Very good, as a matter of fact. We all, however, can learn how not to do this in specific situations. The Milgram study paid the subjects what would be the equivalent of about $20.00 now. There were teachers and learners, with walls in between them. The teacher was to ask questions, and each time the learner made a mistake, the teacher was to deliver an electric shock, starting at 45 volts, and going up to 300 volts. They were shown what was said to be a sample of the learners' chair. They were asked to sit, and they recieved a low voltage shock. They are told no permanent damage will result, and, with each missed response they are reminded of the rules to go up to the next level. The learners are, of course, not actually being shocked, but as they seemingly recieve higher voltage shocks, they moan, yell, scream, and pound on the walls. The teachers continue, though some are obviously very reluctant. Sixty-five percent went along with the experimenter's urging to go up to 450 volts, even though that was past what was required in their instructions. Tells a lot about human nature. That's all you needed enlightening on, Jimbo, the study...you had the poem's meaning in your pocket. Thanks for reading, and for your comments. Later... Kristine< !signature--> there's a hell of a good universe next door;lets go ~ e. e. cummings [This message has been edited by warmhrt (edited 02-16-2000).] |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Kris: Now that you mention more details of the test, I do remember reading about it. I just noticed your little note at the bottom of the poem (that all of those experimented on were males). I am curious as to whether you know of any conditioned response experiments that included women in their study and whether the women tested differently than the men. I suspect there would be very few differences but I have little hard evidence to back my thoughts up. Were there any experiments like this of which you are aware? Jim |
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Ted Reynolds Member
since 1999-12-15
Posts 331 |
The fascinating second level of the Milgram experiment was when Milgram (very unusually for a scientist,) after several steps of escalation of the experiments to see just how far people would go, recognized that by pushing these experiments he was doing the same thing -- by devastating the self-images of the active subjects who had to deal with what they found themselves capable of doing, all justified because it was science. He tried to convince others NOT to push such experiments further. In one sense, I guess I've dodged commenting on Warmhrt's poem -- on another, the very fact that I'm going on like this (AND feeling emotional about it) points out that it's done some of it's work very effectively. (I'm an advocate [sometimes] of the view that the best poems end up with the reader not thinking about the poem . . . but about what it's about.) |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Kristine, I haven't been avoiding this one. Well in all honesty I guess I have. Until reading some of the other comments, I had absolutely no idea what it was about. Whether for good or bad, I pretty well managed to avoid psychology and other similar subjects. Most of my experimenting dealt with physics or making things and stuff like that. I am probably entirely wrong but it seems to me that this poem is unlikely to create much interest unless the reader is at least familiar with the subject. I sure like Ted's closing comment, ". . .the best poems end up with the reader not thinking about the poem . . . but about what it's about." Geez, I wish I had said that, it's really deep. Thanks. Pete What terms shall I find sufficiently simple in their sublimity -- sufficiently sublime in their simplicity -- for the mere enunciation of my theme? Edgar Allan Poe |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hi Kris, I'm gonna spare you the usual "cut and paste" routine I perform because I think "as is" this is a solid poem that I really enjoyed reading. I thought the abrupt line lengths suited the poem nicely, gave it a scientific feel. I loved the first three lines of the second stanza and can you believe the "..." I even liked , man I'm getting soft . I usually hate thoses dot-dot-dots but it seemed to fit this particular piece. I don't know if I'd change a thing with this poem, the only suggestion I have is add a little more depth to this poem, maybe this is just my "nothing can ever be perfect" type of thinking, but I just "feel" that there is a tiny something missing to really make the reader go "ga-ga" over this poem. It's an excellent poem and an original story for a poem...or at least I've never read a poem about the study, and I really enjoyed it, thanks Kris and take care,Trevor |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Ted, Thank you so very much...I think that was the best comment I've ever recieved on one of my works, and that is always my desire when writing a poem. It doesn't always work out that way, though. Thanks again, Ted. Pete, I'm sorry if this was confusing to you because you hadn't seen the study, but then if we only wrote of things everyone knew of, we would constantly be repeating themes over and over. Pushing peoples buttons, though, is something we all can relate to (though in the study, it was levers), and that it what the poem is really all about. Thanks for reading, and for taking the time to comment. Trev, Aha! You're one of those too....(ask Jim) An "as-is" poem is a wonderful comment from you, even if you do think there's a little something missing. All kidding aside, thank you, and I do sincerely appreciate your comments, whether "cut and paste", or in this manner.Later, Trev, Kris < !signature--> there's a hell of a good universe next door;lets go ~ e. e. cummings [This message has been edited by warmhrt (edited 02-17-2000).] |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
Hi Kris Apologies for the late response. To be honest I had never heard of the experiment and didn't know what it was about, so a lot of the meaning was lost on me (what's new!!). Before I read any of the responses I did sort of start to guess from second stanza that this was about manipulation of people using their perceived weaknesses. At first sight I was inclined to agree with Pete's comment about this being a rather restricted subject matter likely only to appeal to a narrow audience. Clearly however on closer reading, and with particular attention to the end of the piece, it is apparent that in fact this is a commentary on the universal truth that from birth a child begins to be "conditioned" in a general sense, and more particularly learns quickly how to "press the right buttons" to get what it wants. I guess this "innocent" manipulation can become more or less sinister as each individuals life progresses ..... I could say lots more but won't here Thought provoking Kris (I agree absolutely with Ted .. btw) Philip |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Philip, Very articulate elucidation...yes, exactly the meaning I hoped to communicate to the reader. Thank you, Philip for the "I agree absolutely with Ted btw", and for your other comments. there's a hell of a good universe next door;lets go ~ e. e. cummings |
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