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Victory and Death (South Pacific Perspectives, Part 2)
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Victory and Death (South Pacific Perspectives, Part 2) |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash 
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Crash the stoic waves that rush the pebbled shores Always faithful, favored over all of Liberty’s sons, Pouring out their power with their tidal charge, Pressing forward toward dulcet victory. Crash, the sound of chilling fear inside my chest Please, my distant God, have mercy on your sons Pouring out their blood on these infernal shores, Faces down, their still bodies torn cold in death. Feel the furious pounding of the five-inch fists, The wrath of haughty ladies dressed in gray, Batter coastal hills and claim the open seas, Pennants high, announcing dulcet victory. Feel the furious pounding of the angry seas That toss my slender lady dressed in gray, Batter her with unrelenting, foam-capped fists, Going down, a final briny draft of death. Crash the cymbals, drummers’ forceful cadence lead Marching valiant men while streaming ticker-tape, Pouring down its colors, joins the grand procession Rejoicing in the dulcet day of victory. Feel the pall, a soulless sad procession Bearing valiant lifeless friends in zippered bags Battered bodies, maimed by fire and burning lead, Tagged and heading home to bitter tears of death. < !signature--> Jim "If I rest, I rust." - Martin Luther [This message has been edited by jbouder (edited 02-15-2000).] |
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rich-pa Member
since 2000-02-07
Posts 317New Orleans, Louisiana |
well let's see, overall i like the poem, the two contrasting voices are great, i especially like the mingling of the two in the final stanza like that, i just wanna make sure though, is the first voice the ocean or about the ocean? the second is obviously a distraught sailor and i think you did a good job in displaying his fear, especially with the plea to God. are the five inch fists the mortars of the ship?...overall, i dug it you, i had to read it a few times to clear up my confusion but i am far form being the best reader and interpreter of poetry, so on that note i let you be rich-pa "the Beat is strong in this one" --yoda kerouac |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hey Jim, Really glad you followed up this idea with another part. I don't think I've ever continued any poems into a series....I should give it a go one of these days....actually been trying to think of a sequel to "The Ocean Quiet" based upon your suggestions but nothing seems to be flowing with it....what were those words you used for the different actions of the ocean....I "accidently" deleted that thread while testing out my new found moderating powers.  "Crash the stoic waves that rush the pebbled shores Always faithful, favored over all of Liberty’s sons, Pouring out their power with their tidal charge, Pressing forward toward dulcet victory." Really liked the opening stanza especially "Crash the stoic waves" because I thought crash could have been interpreted at least three different ways, one being, the waves are crashing the shore, two the enemy is crashing onto the shore or three, enemy fire crashing on the shore. I'm figuring it is the guns crashing the shore because of what is latter said, but I found the first by itself painted a picture with all interpretations incorperated at once. "Crash, the sound of chilling fear inside my chest Please, my distant God, have mercy on your sons Pouring out their blood on these infernal shores, Faces down, one final taste of salty death." Another great stanza....but consider changing mercy to something that seems more like "pity" or "help us" because mercy to me, seemed to imply that God is causing this like a "spare us from your wrath" thing rather than a sheppard looking out for his flock. I also thought you could have made the salty death lines sound a little more profound, those lines seemed a tiny bit flat in comparison to the situation....but I'm fresh out of ideas on suggestions of how to. "Feel the furious pounding of the five-inch fists, The wrath of haughty ladies dressed in gray, Batter coastal hills and claim the open seas, Pennants high, announcing dulcet victory." Loved the "furious pounding of the...." , actually all the descrips in this stanza are good. "Feel the furious pounding of the angry seas That toss my slender lady dressed in gray, Batter her with unrelenting, foam-capped fists, Going down, one final draft of salty death." I liked the way you used similar lines to describe both sides perception of what was happening. Once again I didn't like the last line, "one final draft of salty death" seemed off though I thought you should keep "salty death" on all the lines but change the description of the salty death. I think it was more "one final" that throws me off, seems a bit redundant to say "final" as part of a description to "death"....unless you're talking about cats "Sweet success, we bring the victor’s laurels home Always savor freedom’s dulcet victory Tragic deaths, we send the victims' bodies home Never dare forget the salty tears of death." I thought every line in this stanza was a bit flat when compared to the previous stanzas and left me feeling unfulfilled at the end. I'm guessing you wanted to slow down the emotion a lot at the end to give contrast between peace and war but perhaps you toned it down a bit too much. I think a lot of my disliking for this stanza is because in the first two lines you say pretty much the same thing three times "Sweet success", "victor's laurel" and "dulcet victory" and also because you used the word "victor" twice. Just a thought. Pretty good second part to this series though in my opinion, maybe the ending could take a bit of rewriting . Thanks and take care, Trevor |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Jimteach, Although I'm not much a fan of poems of war, this was different. I liked very much the two perspectives...to me it was as if the first voice was what the people would be told, as in the news clips they used to have at the movie theaters. The second voice seemed to be the honest, compassionate inner voice of a ship's captain. I assume you meant "dulcet victory" and "salty death" to be diametrically opposed phrases, with dulcet meaning clear? Maybe it's just me, but I attach dulcet to a sound, as of the flute. Perhaps you meant the clear sound of victory. It's a bit confusing to me, and I would have used a different word. Some of the repetitions are essential to the poem, but not all. Nice work, Teach, Kristine If I can ease one life the aching, Or cool one pain,... I shall not live in vain - Emily Dickinson |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Dulcet can mean either sweetness of sound or sweetness of taste. There are several examples of multiple meanings/interpretations in here, by the way. This was done purposefully. More later. Jim "If I rest, I rust." - Martin Luther |
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Craig Member
since 1999-06-10
Posts 444 |
Well written, especially the twin views in the alternate stanzas. I noticed that you used the first and second end words in the first and third stanzas as the end words in the second and third lines of the second and fourth stanzas, ( if anyone understands what I just said can they send me an explanation in English ), yet you didn’t continue this in the fifth an sixth. Is there a reason? If there isn’t would you consider a change to even it up? Just a thought. Thanks for the read. Craig Yes, I admit your general rule. That every poet is a fool: But I myself may serve to show it. That every fool is not a poet. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Thanks everyone for replying to this. Rich: The waves and the ocean are both real waves and the real ocean and metaphors in the first stanza for "waves" of attacking U.S. Marines during an amphibius assault on a Japanese occupied island in the South Pacific during WWII. "Always faithful" is the English translation of the U.S. Marine Corp. motto, shortened to "Semper Fidelis" or "Semper Fi". The "ladies dressed in gray" are U.S. Navy destroyers (DD's) and the "five-inch fists" are shells fired from the "ladies'" five-inch guns (five inches being the diameter of the gun barrel). You did a fine job interpreting this one, by the way. Don't sell yourself short. Trevour: Thanks for your insight and input on this one. For some reason some of the lines gave me difficulty. I was trying for blank verse here and playing with a few other ideas and for some reason some things were not clicking. I made some of your suggested changes and would appreciate knowing what you think. "Mercy", by the way, is going to stay in there. "Mercy" has both temporal and spiritual implications while "pity" or "help us" is more limited to the "temporal" only. So by asking for "mercy", the prayer is for those who live as well as those who are sure to die. Kris: You are very observant. My memories of the news clips shown in the History Channel were my inspirations for most of the romanticized stanzas of my poem. Most of what is in my other stanzas was based on my readings of my father's "Our Navy" magazines that his parents collected during the war because of its listing of DIA, MIA and WIA sailors. Craig: I understand what you are saying but I don't dare try to translate it into English. I may come back to this one soon to try to "even" it up but doing this is like trying to write a mini-sestina ... not the easiest of tasks. Thanks for the comments. Jim "If I rest, I rust." - Martin Luther |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hey Jim, Great revision....though you know I almost always have some suggestions "Crash, the sound of chilling fear inside my chest Please, my distant God, have mercy on your sons Pouring out their blood on these infernal shores, Faces down, their bodies torn and cold in death." For the last line consider leaving out "and"..."their bodies torn cold in death"....with that it might paint more pictures....their bodies are mangled, their bodies are cold and also that life has been ripped from them...dunno...just a suggestion. I liked the changes you made to the "dulcet" lines....better that you changed it that way than changing the word "dulcet". "Going down, a final briny draft of death" Thought that line worked a lot more effectively without really changing the meaning. I really liked the last two stanzas and the way you went back to the four line stanzas for each perspective instead of two lines for each on the last stanza before....did that make sense. One suggestion though, "Bearing valiant lifeless friends in zippered bags" Consider changing "friends" to family, makes a more impact because I think most people would rather lose ten loved friends than one loved family member. Just a thought. Anyways, I thought you made this poem a lot more solid, I see your point with "mercy" too. Good revision, take care, Trevore |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Hi Jim, Sorry I'm so late on this one. I like it much better that the previous epizode. You use of the two voices to describe the battle was excellent. And your use of metaphors, at least those I have found, was very good. I, like Rich, had to read several times to absorb as much as I have. But that is a good thing. If you can make your readers read more than once while still holding their attention, I believe you have accomplished something worthwhile. This may also need translating into English but that seems to be the best I can do today.  I also identified with Kris's take on the news reels vs. the ship's captain viewpoints. Very perceptive. Fortunately, I don't personally remember the newsreels from WWII but I guess I have seen them on TV.Finally, I understand Trevor's reasoning behind changing "mercy" but I also understand your insistence on keeping it in there. And I know it is pretty central to the theme but the choice of "dulcet" just seems a little awkward or out of place to me. I wouldn't ask you to change it but it does stand out for me. Most likely just because it's a word I have never used for anything. Thanks. Pete What terms shall I find sufficiently simple in their sublimity -- sufficiently sublime in their simplicity -- for the mere enunciation of my theme? Edgar Allan Poe |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
(From the workshop) Ok Jim I know I'm late but I thought I'd read and comment on this without checking out the replies in CA first ...... you know how easily swayed I am ...... lol First my overall impression is of a neat well wrapped and presented essentially "male" poem. I don't know why I feel that, perhaps because of the subject. That isn't btw meant to be a negative criticism because in a sense anything to do with the military really ought to be efficient and precise .. the irony for me, and what I really liked about the piece, is the fact that the subject matter is anything but neat and precise. The reality of war is that it is vile, messy, wasteful and chaotic .. and the fact that you chose this format increased the irony in the poem. After all the poem is all about irony is it not? The essence of the piece is the way it see-saws back and forth between the outward presentable face of conflict and the thinly hidden fear and loss which is ever present. The alternating stanzas do this very well if extremely overtly ... there is no subtlety, which is in keeping with the precision I referred to earlier. The other element in stanzas two and four and six is the power of nature and the forces and the elemental forces. So looking at the actually content... we first have the apparently straightforward image of the storming of a foreign shore. Presumably being the sequel to Part 1 (lol) this is the allied point of view ("Liberty" suggesting the US ... tho I can't think why .... sorry just kiddin'). I thought you opened well with the clever use of two meanings of "waves" ... "stoic" of course helping the reader to "see" what is really going on .. then the continuation of the metaphor with the word "tidal" .. I wasn't quite sure about "favoured over" it sounded a bit kinda self important somehow .. but maybe that's because I'm just a Brit ... .Then in stanza two we start to realise what you're up to. Now the reader is presented with the other side of the coin. Using the (it has to be said) oft used device of parallelling, but no less effective for that you start to let us see what is really going on ... Why did you use the phrase "distant God" ? I think I know but please tell. Once you have set the pattern the poem continues in the same fashion. Loved the five inch fists .. shells. Also the power and invincibility of the cruisers offshore is well portrayed only to be shattered in the next stanza by the comparison with the power of the sea which thus portrays mans most feared machines as puny set against the elements. Again you faithfully parallel the previous stanza. The last two stanzas really lay on the irony .. the hollowness of victory and rejoicing .. when "just round the corner in the same town" the procession is one resulting from the real cost of war. I suppose if I had one overall criticism it would be that the theme of the futility of war and the hollowness of victory has been so well explored that there is a danger that this might be seen a boring repetition ..... However. if it is, all I can say is that its very good repetition and bearing in mind that this is part of a series I guess that it should be read as a part of that and not entirely in isolation.. Well done Jim Philip And now I've read the CA comments and your explanations. I guess I wasn't too far away .. Lol BTW ... typo on "colors" change to "colours" .... I guess I got the Cruisers wrong .. I didn't know Destroyers had 5" shells ~blush~ and the only other thing that grabbed my attention was Trevor's suggestion to change "friends" to "family". Firstly I don't think it would be right to do that given that the poem has a kind of "comrade in arms" feel about it, but secondly in my own experience (sadly) there are few of my family I can call "friends" and those people I would call friends mean far far more to me ... oh well .. just a personal perspective .. thanks again Jim |
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J.L. Humphres Member
since 2000-01-03
Posts 201Alabama |
Jim, I don't really have much to say here besides good work. I like this one better than the first of the series. This one really shows the contrast between war propaganda(sp?) and reality. It bites.(complementary bites, not derogatory bites )J.L.H. Jason I...I have seen the best minds of my generation... --Allen Ginsberg |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Trevor: Thanks again for the suggestions. The "torn cold in death" actually creates a metrical variation that helps drive my point home. The zippered bags are body bags being loaded into a transport for conveyance to back to the United States. The bearers ARE friends and not family. Pete: Thanks for the reply. I put more thought into this than I have others in the recent past and I tried to incorporate as many layers and meanings into the words I chose as I could. I had similar thoughts about "dulcet". It just doesn't seem to fit ... just like the descriptions of the events in the stanzas. It means what I want to say but it just doesn't sound right. Philip: Thanks for your detailed response. "After all the poem is all about irony is it not?" Irony is a big part of it. What I think is truly ironic is that nobody (at least nobody I know) believes that war is anything like the way I describe it in my non-italicized stanzas. Never-the-less, old news reels, Rambo movies, and countless other productions portray this sanitary, honorable, glorious picture of war to us. "Presumably being the sequel to Part 1 (lol)" What clued you in? lol "I wasn't quite sure about 'favoured over' it sounded a bit kinda self important somehow .. but maybe that's because I'm just a Brit ..." The U.S. Marine Corp. marketing motto is "The Few, The Proud, The Marines". I think "sounding self important" is a pretty good description of my jar-headed friends. They can whoop some serious behind so their bravado is not all bluster. But they are certainly, without a doubt, definitely proud. "Why did you use the phrase 'distant God'? I think I know but please tell. Actually there are a couple reasons. The more obvious not being the my primary meaning, by the way. The "prayer" of the Marine in the second stanza was modeled in part after one of the Psalms of David wherein David laments that God "is" far from him when his enemies (the followers of King Saul) were hunting him. The second (and probably the one you were thinking of) comes about as a result of the addage born in WWII, "War is hell". If the Marines were in "hell" then they would be far from God. But I wanted to distance the Marine's prayer from the "War is hell" statement in order to keep the prayer from being overwhelmed by a cliche. "Loved the five inch fists .. shells." Thanks. Also the power and invincibility of the [destroyers] offshore is well portrayed only to be shattered in the next stanza by the comparison with the power of the sea which thus portrays mans most feared machines as puny set against the elements." Actually, the fourth stanza is based on something my dad experienced. While he was in the South Pacific (on a destroyer) during WWII, his Task Force was blind-sided by a typhoon that ended up sinking three destroyers and killing over 800 men. All my dad ever said about the typhoon is that it was "scary". I didn't know how big a storm it was until after he died and I began tracking his whereabouts during the war. Thanks for your attention you paid to this. Later. Jim |
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