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| Critical Analysis #1 |
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Coffee |
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patchoulipumpkin Member
since 2000-01-01
Posts 196Bermuda |
The world stills Itself on the surface Of my coffee And I look in the cup Oceans live in there Mountain ranges Seeds from Africa Sweat from Costa Rica Air from continents Places Countries I can’t even pronounce All Condensed in fluid Dark liquid Brought to life With beans And hot water And I think of all Cups of coffee That each hold The secret The old man told me about He said Life Aren’t we lucky to have Gotten in I take a sip And he’s right It’s a good secret |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Patch, This is GREAT! Every time I have my caffiene fix, I will surely think of this, and of the secret...nice touch. I could smell the deep, rich aroma as I read. Very good work, Patch, Kristine "If I can ease one life the aching, Or cool one pain,... I shall not live in vain" - Emily Dickinson |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
patch!!! this is phenomenal!!!  |
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daleedmands New Member
since 2000-02-05
Posts 7 |
Wonderful stuff! I enjoyed the coffee; exceptional flavor! |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hello, Perhaps the three who posted before me could add some elaboration to their critiques if they have a chance. We all appreciate when people take the time to read and comment but a comment without explanation is really nothing more than a sound bite. KRIS: Why did you think this poem was great? Was it the wording, theme, flow?? I'm sure Patch would appreciate not only the fact that you love it but what he/she (sorry patch, can't remember your gender) did to make you love it. REBEL: What was phenomenal about this? You couldn't find anything that you thought could use some tightening or fixing? Is this the "perfect" poem in your opinion...without flaws in your opinion? DALEEDMANDS: Welcome to CA, I'm glad you're taking the time to appreciate the work of others here but perhaps if you have the time you could tell Patch what you thought was wonderful about the poem and maybe even the parts you thought were not so wonderful. Now I'm not trying to tell any of you what to do....do as you please, these are only suggestions, to be used or discarded but for me personally, I hate when anyone just puts a simple...."I love it!!" or "Wonderful Stuff!!" as a response to one of my poems unless it's followed by why they thought it was good. Now I do agree with you all, it is a good poem but without analysing the poem, there really is no need for Critical Analysis,....kinda defeats the purpose of having a place where you can openly like and dislike a poem and express these thoughts if no one ever does. Now once again, do as you please, this isn't a rule...yet  , but remember that if everyone started responding with simple little praises then no one would ever know whether or not people really liked their work or why their worked was so well liked. And just like the magic rule of poetry, the same applies to critiquing, there is no right or wrong way to do it...only opinions. Anyways, that's my little whiney rant, please feel free to respond to it, I just hate seeing people who have more to contribute not doing so. Take care everyone, Trevor PS, Patch if its okay with you I'll come back to this a little later and critique it. |
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jenni Member
since 1999-09-11
Posts 478Washington D.C. |
patch-- another nice one from you, but not one of my favorites, i must say. i think it's the moral at the end, in the words of an 'old man' no less; i just think you could have made this a little less obvious. and the 'sweat from costa rica' does something to the piece, in my opinion; i don't know if you intended it or not, but the image in my mind of underpaid third-world coffee pickers toiling to provide the speaker with the neatly-packaged secret of life was a little jarring, it put me off a little. but your 'voice' here is, as usual, fantastic; i loved the lines "places / countries / i can't even pronounce": they really add to the poem's easy, flowing tone. thanks for a good read. jenni |
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patchoulipumpkin Member
since 2000-01-01
Posts 196Bermuda |
Thanks for your comments. Trevor: I appreciate your point of view, it can get frustrating not getting more in depth critiques, but a good word can be encouraging too. Jenni, yeh, i know the ending, when i was writing this, struck me as too moralistic, kind of like a fairy tale in a way, and i was struggling with it. Have you any suggestions? I was thinking for the last stanza A secret Revealed In a sip I don't know. Would love some suggestions though. Cheers. |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hey Patch, No problem with the comments, personally I'd rather recieve no comments then just "NICE JOB!" or "GOOD WORK!". I understand that sometimes a lot has already been said about a poem and a reader might not have any new insight to add but its always nice to hear on what they agree upon or disagree upon to give you a better idea of what might be good or bad and what reader's tend to enjoy...cause lets face it, anyone who posts poetry just ain't writing for themselves Okay, I think I'm beating this horse to death so I'll get on with a constructive comment about your poem.I agreed with Jenni about the ending, seemed too much like a coffee ad, however I liked your new idea for an ending, and if I may be so bold as to add another suggestion, "A secret Revealed to sip" kinda says, take the time to appreciate the secrets that coffee holds. What'ya think? Perhaps lead back into looking at the coffee and pondering instead of the "old man" scenario. Just a thought. Take care, Trevour |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I enjoyed it and it is very similar to the same technique I used in 'Chanoyu'. If I remember correctly someone mentioned Bukowski also did something similar as well. These are not meant to be cuts so much as I think there is a lot of poetential in the technique. I'd think about doing a little research on coffee and expanding that whole idea of coffee as a key to the world. The old man didn't bother me (I was actually thinking of a Hemingway story -- not the one about the big fish) but the secret stuff could be expanded or dropped because I don't understand it. Perhaps some of you smarter chaps (gender nuetral) can explain it to me. Brad |
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kaile
since 2000-02-06
Posts 5146singapore |
hi there,i myself am a coffee fanatic,so this poem sort of speaks to me.... loved the beginning,yes,yes,the world seems to stop all traces of life when i am savouring this wonderful cup of coffee..at that moment of time,one will be totally immersed in that coffee... ... liked the way the poet stops to reflect on the existence of this cup of coffee....though i won't say i think of Brazil or coffee beans everyone i drink coffee, i do reflect on life and the subsequent paths i should take...Bingo again!!!! i do agree with the rest--the inclusion of the old man at the last paragraph sounds a bit confusing to moi.... Abobe all,nice job!!!") |
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Songbird Member Elite
since 1999-12-15
Posts 2184Missouri |
I especially like the first line, it says alot in few words what coffee is to alot of people. The appreciation that comes through for all those people who have helped you be able to sip that coffee is makes the enjoyment of the coffee taste even better, and adds really nice interest to the poem. I am not qualified to be a critique, I just know when I like a poem very much, sort of like when you find a good cup of coffee, you know it but maybe can't say exactly why, maybe it just doesn't leave a bitter aftertaste, who can say everyone's taste buds aren't the same... |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Patch, I liked your poem very much, because my perceptions told me I did, not because it was technically or otherwise perfect (I'm not saying it wasn't). It "spoke" to me. In addressing Trevor's comment, I would like to say that I feel each poem and poet have a unique individuality, and, at times, you may instantly respond to a certain work without realizing the dynamics behind the response. Stimuli affects each of us diversely, and affects our subconscious mind often more than our awareness. I think it's perfectly alright to say, "I loved this", or "Great work!", because there are times (unless a poem is truly bad, technically) when we can't quite put our finger on the reason why we like or dislike a poem. Kris < !signature--> "If I can ease one life the aching, Or cool one pain,... I shall not live in vain" - Emily Dickinson [This message has been edited by warmhrt (edited 02-06-2000).] |
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captaincargo Member
since 1999-11-25
Posts 109Corning, N.Y. U.S.A. |
This was fun to read, it flowed nicely. I especially like the part about places. The old man part I didn't quite get. Until I thought instead of just looking at it and "pondering" it, take a sip and "live" it. Yes? Cap. Cap. Carg. |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hello everyone, KRIS: I agree with the fact that at times we don't fully understand why or why we didn't like a poem (or anything else), but that is why we should sit back and think about the poem, reread the poem, reflect upon what you think the author has done. Now I'm having a hard time believeing that an intelligent person like yourself can't figure out, after a few moments of pondering, why or why you didn't like a poem. It's great that you gave him your initial response, which was "This is GREAT!" and that you will think of this poem about coffee when you drink coffee...super!....but I know that isn't all you thought about when you read this poem and I know you grasped why or why you didn't like this poem....you hinted at it with your comments..."I could smell the deep, rich aroma as I read.", Now I'm interpretting this as, you liked the imagery Patch had is his poem, but did you like all the wording? Did you feel he could have reworded it a bit in your opinion? Now please don't cop out by telling me that you didn't know why you liked this piece, I've read enough of your poetry and critiques to know that you can easily grasp the whole of this poem. Now I think you might have read a little too much into my comments, I'm not trying to say that everyone should spend an hour critiquing a poem, but rather that if you truly want to improve not only your poetry but others as well than it might be a good idea to at least put in a brief summarization of your opinions on a poem and maybe some examples too. Just an idea... I liked this line because....I didn't like this line because....No sense in having CA if people are just gonna back slap and gold star each other. "I think it's perfectly alright to say, "I loved this", or "Great work!"" Of course its perfectly alright....you can, like anyone else, say what ya want, when ya want and how you want, but how would YOU want someone to respond to a poem that you slaved over? Would you want all the responses to be either "Good Poem!" or "Bad Poem!"?, cause that's all you three were really saying. How much can you learn from that? or would you rather have the reader take that extra minute or two and investigate the poem? It's unfortunate that my comments were interpreted as a direct aim at you and the other two members because in fact it was aimed at all of CA. I'm just trying to get people to think of not only posting poems but on their critiquing and understanding of poetry as well. The art of expression doesn't solely live within a poem, it can fold over onto everything...such as a critique. I'm not trying to mold people into anything but rather present an opinion that may hopefully inspire the exact opposite, think for yourselves but pleeeeeezzee tell us what you are thinking...saying "I love it!" isn't very original and probably doesn't do justice to anyone's full opinion and definitely doesn't do justice to the effort one puts into a poem. So go ahead and say for every poem you liked "Great!!" (now I know you don't do this, I have read great critiques by you before) but don't moan if that is the only response you get in return. This site is inevitably shaped by ALL OF US, we decide the direction we want CA to go or to keep going in, so ask yourself, do you want people to spend the time to give a few extra thoughts on a poem? or do you want people to just give a quick intitial response to a poem? It's up to everyone. Am I crazy for thinking like this...am I the only one who wants this...please all of you let me know! If ya don't want me to keep harping about critiquing then just say so and I'll let it go....but if you do believe that people should be spending just a tad more time on a critique then speak up. So that's my thought on the whole singa-songa. Glad you took the time to address the issue Kris and bring some more conversation about this topic. Take care, Trevor Sorry...one more little thing...perhaps people should consider thinking of critiquing in terms of quality rather than quantity. Don't feel like you have to respond to a hundred poems a day but rather make your critique counts...I know for me I sometimes get exhausted trying to read everything....well, just a thought and suggestion to do with as you see fit. [This message has been edited by Trevor (edited 02-06-2000).] |
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Ted Reynolds Member
since 1999-12-15
Posts 331 |
I liked this, it gave me a warm feel, and if I'd been one of the early readers I probably would have said no more than that. Then I saw the debate it had stirred up, and was pulled in. Trevor, some of us (me) usually hit Passions during a fifteen minute coffee break. We want to have good reading experiences, welcome new voices, point out problems we feel we may have the answers to, acclaim any really spectacular achievement, and help fine-tune poems which have *almost* made it. We know we hit only a fraction of what's out there, and ache for what we've missed, the help and encouragement we could have given. I haven't even time to prooveread my responses, and that *really* galls me. And now my coffee-break is over. Get the point? I sorta liked this poem, and that's all I have time to say to Patch today. |
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captaincargo Member
since 1999-11-25
Posts 109Corning, N.Y. U.S.A. |
Gee, maybe it should've been decaf. Cap. Cap. Carg. |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
I understand completely with what you're saying Ted, but unfortunately I guess you're missing my point. You'll spend fifteen minutes saying you don't have fifteen minutes to spare to offer Patch a more indepth critique. People will spend their time posting or responding to comments made on their poems but not critiquing. What would happen if everyone adopted a plan like that? Eventually there would be nothing but posts and no real responses. They'll spend a half an hour putting "Nice Stuff!" after ten poems they've read instead of a couple of insightful things on a few poems. Maybe you missed the title of this place or the meaning of the title. Is "I sorta liked it" a critical analysis? If ya don't have the time then fine, nothing you can do about it and the comments made aren't really directed at you, I completely understand and acknowledge the fact that some people do have limited free time, but do most not have the time or do most not give the time? Poetry is work and a place like this can only work if there is give and take. If one person only wants to spend time writing and posting their poems (and only putting thought and effort into their responses on their poems) then why on god's green earth should someone take the time to bother critiquing their work? Why should Patch bother with something you've written when all you want to do is say is "I sorta liked this poem". DO you want him to post, "I sorta liked this poem" on something you've put your heart into? Does that type of response do justice to a poet's work? Would it do justice to something you loved writing and are proud of (which I think Patch is and should be of this poem)? If you want, keep putting "Sortas and kindas and good and bad" as your adept responses, I won't stop ya, but for me, and I'm saying this to everyone, it's more important for me that I know what you liked or didn't like ABOUT a poem I've written then to know whether or not you liked or didn't like the poem. I'd rather hear someone tell me about the one bad line then then to say "A-Okay, REALLY-GREAT-SUPER-NEATO-STUFF!!!!". But hey, that's me and to be honest that's what I expect from a place called CA. If I wanted to hear brief vague comments like "Good Job" and "Well done!" then I'd post in another forum or place. To be honest I can't believe some people are complaining that I am suggesting people be critical in their analysis at a place called Critical Analysis. It's like going to a restaurant called Hamburgers and the waitress gets peeved that I asked for a hamburger???? I don't get it....can someone explain to me why a few are upset that I'm suggesting people spend more time with their critiques? Is that a bad thing???? I understand that some don't have time to respond to every poem, but is this the case for the majority of people here? I also know things like the internet costs money and some can't afford a lot of time....but once again is that the case for the majority? If so please let me know and I'll openly apoligize to anyone I've offended with my little rants, but I'm sure most could find the time if they realized they can still focus on their own growth as a writer and improve as a writer by giving good opinion based critiques. Understanding other people's writing techniques is nothing but beneficial to one's own writing....or at least it has been a great factor in my improvement over the years (you think I'm bad now you should've read my earlier poetry). Anyways, that's the end of another stereotypical Trevour rant, please don't hesitate to jump back with a response...any of you...I'd like to know everyone's opinion on this topic. Take care, Trevor PS, My sincere apoligies Patch for turning the focus a away from your poem....its unfair....wasn't really planned but I feel this is something that should be addressed and since it's your poem, and a good one at that, I'll gladly respect your wishes if you want me to end the discussion on this thread and take it elsewhere. Just let me know, Trevor Okay...now Ted, I like Angela Landsbury...you know why, cause she's an amuteur sleuth, so now and again I like to try and emulate her...so I did a little investigating of my own. Now after searching through your poetry, etc. I've discovered that either you have about twenty coffee breaks a day, the nicest most easy going boss in the world, you don't work, you're sneaking internet time when you should be working, you work for yourself...or...you do have the time to respond with a little more than "I sorta liked it"? Other than late in the evening, there are posts from you all hours of the day on every single day of the week. Sometimes you'd post more than one poem and sometimes in more than one forum on a weekday and then take the time to respond to comments made on them....and sometimes at great length too...if I'm lying please use the search option at the top of the page and check it out for yourself. You're telling me you have the time to write out "The Face" on your coffee break but ya don't have time to write more than "kinda liked it" as a critique???? I maybe stupodd but I ain't no fool. There are other examples and you can look at the dates and times for yourself and I'd love to hear again that you don't have the time cause all you get is fifteen minutes a day to hop on the internet. Now like I've said about a million times now, do as you please, critique and write how you want but don't tell me a guy who posts at all hours of the day is only limited to a short, small coffee break. I mean you posted a poem almost everyday in January, that takes a lot of time (especially some of the fancy fonts and length of the poems)....not to mention responding to the comments made on your poems....plussssss, the comments you made on other poems. Maybe I just ain't getting it here Ted??? Am I missing something??? If I'm wrong I'll be quick and sincere with my apoligies but please first show me the error in my thoughts. Anyways, this isn't an attack Ted, nor do I have any grudge against you, it's more of my way of bringing to light the issue of the lack of depth in some critiques. I'm not trying to tell anyone what they should be doing and how they should do it...I'm only suggesting a direction that I'd like to see CA move towards. So everyone, show through action what you want CA to be and what you want from CA. Anyways, again Ted don't take this as a personal attack, my apoligies if I come off to harsh....I still have a thing or two to learn about expression.... and I'd love to once again hear what you think of all of this...In fact I'd love to hear everyone's opinion on this. Take care, Trevor Also if anyone would like to comment in private about their thoughts on CA and the issue of critiquing or if you have any suggestions on the direction you'd like to see CA move in, please feel free to e-mail me at t_md1@hotmail.com P.S. Sorry again Patch....just let me know if ya want me to bugger off of your thread...I just can't help myself sometimes....blame it on caffeine [This message has been edited by Trevor (edited 02-07-2000).] |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Trev -- its kinda like this man... I spend every other waking moment of my life almost analysing in extreme technical detail all of the objectives and constraints of multitudinal business and physics problems that have to solved on time and in budget. This is in addition to all of the socio-economic impact of decisions I make and the effects they will have on the 250 families that depend on my analysis to get a paycheck every week -- and still maintain an envioronment where the breadwinners of those families feel good about coming through the door every monday morning. I have no problem with people who make a study of the humanities and I'm glad they are around -- however -- my interest in poetry and other humanities is purely recreational at this point in my life and I really don't want to get into technical examinations -- I'll leave that to all of you who are good at it.. I merely know what I like -- and when I see something I like I will offer encouragement to the author -- every once in a while I may have a suggestion or two and I'll gladly make them then. I make these comments here instead of e-mail so that everyone may understand me a little bit better. Now -- for patch -- what I find phenomenal about this peice is the expression of the notion that life comes in moments of simplicity when we stop to contemplate the immensity of the world mechanism that is required to bring us a simple cup of coffee.. and it's done very well too... Hate is a dead thing. Who of you would be a tomb? -Kahlil Gibran |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
Er .. Mr Mod Sir .. just small comment if I may .... Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with a person mixing short comments and longer well thought out quality critiques, for the following reasons: 1 Short kind comments and expressions of enthusiasm are encouraging IF THEY ARE FROM A PERSON YOU RESPECT AS A POET OR CRITIC. There is a huge difference between an "Open" .... "Wow marvellous" and a "Wow marvellous" from a respected colleague in CA. 2 I've read what you say about time availability, but the other dimension to this is the QUALITY of that time. I for instance have in theory unlimited time through most days but under the constant threat of the phone going or other interruptions it's pretty impossible to put a coherent critique together every day. 3. Short comments bring a good poem back to the top of the list where it may then get the attention of people with more time. This saves the writer her/himself from having to resort to devices such as: "...and "poof!", back up to the top of the list this goes...just like magic." just an opinion Philip PS Ohh yes Patch btw it really was an enjoyable poem Thanks PPS PETE thanks for the lesson in manners ..lol [This message has been edited by Poertree (edited 02-07-2000).] |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Well, I guess I'll have a go at this one too. Trevor, I understand and very much appreciate your request for meaningful analysis, but like most of the others who have responded, I also have very limited time. And I also have very limited technical knowledge. Sometimes I may be able to properly critique, typically spelling, grammar or meter, but often I really can't. But if I find something I like, even if I don't understand or can't explain why, I still like to at least say that I liked it. So, although I can't disagree with you, I can't fully agree either. There is one area where I completely disagree, however. I would much prefer empty comments of "I liked it", rather than nothing at all. At least I would know someone read it. And as pointed out above, we have many poets here whose opinion I deeply respect. To have some of them (I won't mention any names because I would leave someone out, but you know who you are) even like my poem would be worthwhile information to me. You are right, of course, that our objective here is to learn from critiques from our colleagues and I am confident that will continue, even though some comments may not teach all that much. And you are right in prompting us to do real critiques whenever we can. So keep up the good work as moderator. Finally, Patch, I liked your poem. I don't have any critical analysis but I just liked it, maybe because it gave me a good feeling this morning. Thanks for writing. Pete What terms shall I find sufficiently simple in their sublimity -- sufficiently sublime in their simplicity -- for the mere enunciation of my theme? Edgar Allan Poe |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Patch: Once again you seem to be able provoke my thinking to consider a mundane subject from a different (and interesting) angle and it appears we have similar tastes in coffee to boot. But I couldn't shake the one nagging word "Condensed". It carries with it the idea of a change in form (which I think you were going for here) but I also think of something "condensed" as loosing something that was originally there (an effect I DON'T think you were going for). What do you think? Now that I've said that ... I think that a more detailed comment on a poem is more productive to the poet than a simple praise. Even if the detailed comment is way off (I've been guilty of this as much as the next guy ... don't everybody rush to agree now) it gives the poet a chance to see how others understand the substance of his or her poetry. For those writing for hobby alone, not actively working to improve their writing or seeking constructive critique, a simple praise is fine with them and that is fine with me. My suggestion: If you read a poem in CA and the sound just doesn't strike you in the right place or if the meter or rhyme in some verse seems to be off and nobody else seems to have caught it, don't omit mentioning it to the poem's author. Encouraging excellence is a big part of CA. An equally big part, I think, is building confidence in one's writing. This is where the praise comes in. But I think Philip is right about the "quality" of a simple praise. If all you ever say when commenting on a poem is "loved this" or "wow", of what value is the praise, really? I understand time constraints (I DO have them at times as much as anyone else) but I do think that, in the spirit of making this Forum continue producing quality poetry, we all need to be mindful of the quality of our comments. Just my opinion brought to you live from my Ivory Tower Lookout. The Whiffling JimBouderWocky |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hello again everyone, Rebel, Philip and Pete, thanks for your input. REBEL: "I spend every other waking moment of my life almost analysing in extreme technical detail all of the objectives and constraints of multitudinal business and physics problems that have to solved on time and in budget. This is in addition to all of the socio-economic impact of decisions I make and the effects they will have on the 250 families that depend on my analysis to get a paycheck every week -- and still maintain an envioronment where the breadwinners of those families feel good about coming through the door every monday morning." I'm glad you have a job Rebel, I too work and I'm guessing that most here either work or go to school or are busy homemakers. We all have responsibilities and burdens in life so I'm sorry to say I don't think of you as a martyr. "my interest in poetry and other humanities is purely recreational at this point in my life and I really don't want to get into technical examinations" Then why "CRITICAL ANALYSIS"? A good critique is not only about addressing the technical aspects of a poem. I know soooo little about the tech. side of poetry, I'm a 27 yr old highschool dropout who mops and scrubs a restaurant kitchen for a living and failed grade 12 English twice. Also giving a critical analysis isn't about being right or wrong on a poem. It's just about giving an indepth (hell it doesn't have to even be all that elaborate) and honest opinion of why you liked or didn't like a poem and how and why it made you feel a certain way. There's really nothing to it. Now I totally respect the fact that you might not be as passionate about poetry as some of the people here, I absolutely have no problem with that, however if you're not willing to give the little extra effort towards someone else's poetry then why should they bother doing that for you. And if everyone decided that, what would happen to CA? Once again no one has adequately explained to me why I shouldn't be a little disappointed that there is a lack of depth to critiques at a place called CRITICAL ANALYSIS. "I'll leave that to all of you who are good at it." Isn't that kinda like saying, I'll leave all the work to someone else? Do you think any of us are really all that good at critiquing? Personally I know I miss out on a lot of things when I read and comment on a poem and it's only because of the efforts of others that I get to see what I'm missing and hopefully I too shed a little light on something they might have missed. "I make these comments here instead of e-mail so that everyone may understand me a little bit better." I'm very glad that you did. I wanted people to respond openly but I also wanted to give people the option. "Now -- for patch -- what I find phenomenal about this peice is the expression of the notion that life comes in moments of simplicity when we stop to contemplate the immensity of the world mechanism that is required to bring us a simple cup of coffee.. and it's done very well too." Now was that so hard? I hope all of you don't think I'm suggesting everyone write a novel for their critiques, but if we all chip in with one or two constructive comments then think of how much we can all learn from each other. Am I a fool for wanting that? Anyways Rebel, your thoughts and opinions on this subject are appreciated, thanks for taking the time to openly respond, take care, Trevor Philip, Oh you haven't turned on me as well have you? Is it cause I called ya Pete a couple of times I edited it You know us Canadians and you Brits are almost the same...you should be looking out for me "Short kind comments and expressions of enthusiasm are encouraging IF THEY ARE FROM A PERSON YOU RESPECT AS A POET OR CRITIC. There is a huge difference between an "Open" .... "Wow marvellous" and a "Wow marvellous" from Jenni in CA." Yes you are absolutely right, the difference being that I can't recall too many times that Jenni has ever put "Wow marvellous" on a critique at CA without at least briefly saying why she thought it marvellous. Maybe I'm wrong though....perhaps you could give me examples to prove me wrong. In my opinion, not only is Jenni an excellent writer but a courteous critiquer as well. "I've read what you say about time availability, but the other dimension to this is the QUALITY of that time. I for instance have in theory unlimited time through most days but under the constant threat of the phone going or other interruptions it's pretty impossible to put a coherent critique together every day." So you're trying to tell me that people can't give a MILDLY indepth critique because they are worried the phone might ring or they get a few phone calls or because the tea kettle is whistling. Once again I think you guys are thinking I'm talking about writing a paper on every poem. What's the big deal about putting two extra sentences together about a couple of lines you liked or disliked or the reason you liked the poem? "Short comments bring a good poem back to the top of the list where it may then get the attention of people with more time. This saves the writer her/himself from having to resort to devices such as: "...and "poof!", back up to the top of the list this goes...just like magic." touche mon frere with the "poof" reference Good response. However, short comments don't necessarily mean vague or lacking in depth. Like I've said now about a ZILLION times (okay maybe I'm padding that number a bit ), I'm not suggesting someone write pages and pages as their critique. I'm only suggesting that instead of just putting "Zowee that was neato-keano" that someone put something like, "I liked this poem, I thought you grabbed and kept the reader's attention throughout it with lines such as......(copy and paste)....however I thought....(copy and past) didn't work because it didn't seem to fit with the rest of the poem or the flow was a little choppy." Now I timed that and it was less than a minute to write, probably a bit more if you're a slower typer and including the cut and paste. I personally would trade a hundred of the "I love it"'s for one brief outline of what a reader thought was wrong with a poem of mine. But hey that's just me. Now I'll ask you the same question that I asked Rebel, Why CA? Why do you choose to post at CA? Anyways, thanks Philip for taking the time to respond, your input is always appreciated. Take care,TrevoUr PETE: "Well, I guess I'll have a go at this one too. Trevor, I understand and very much appreciate your request for meaningful analysis, but like most of the others who have responded, I also have very limited time." I understand completely that people do have time constraints....this may surprise you but I do as well sometimes. However it amazes me that people will spend fifteen minutes writing about how they don't have fifteen minutes to spare on a critique. I don't get it. Or they will say they don't have the time to critique yet post a poem and respond indepth to all the comments made towards their poem. This type of place WILL fail if everyone solely assumes the role of a "taker", who will critique if everyone is just waiting for a critique. Sharing and growing and learning is work and hard work at that (or at least I struggle and stumble) but for me I feel it is well worth the effort. "And I also have very limited technical knowledge." A detailed, indepth opinion has very little to do with technical stuff. Like I said earlier....I'm not proficient(sp?) in the tech side either. But I do know that not discussing poetry isn't going to help me become more aware of the technical aspects of poetry. And why not pick up on some poetry knowledge at a place called CRITICAL ANALYSIS???? "Sometimes I may be able to properly critique, typically spelling, grammar or meter, but often I really can't." Pete, have you ever read, "The Little Engine That Could"?.... Don't feel as if you have to be right about a critique, there are no rights and wrongs, all I'm suggesting is that we, as a collective, begin to add a little more depth to some of the vague critiques....that's all I'm suggesting, nothing more than opinions. Gosh, I can't believe that I'm getting basted here for begging for honest opinions. How often does someone ask people to honestly tell them what they think? I'm BEGGING for people to express themselves openly and freely and yes that does include just saying "Wow, I love it" but I ask this, is that really the person doing justice to their own thoughts on a poem or the poem itself?, or is it just a little bit of laziness and maybe a smidgen of inconsideration?"But if I find something I like, even if I don't understand or can't explain why, I still like to at least say that I liked it." Please don't try and portray to me that you are someone who can't express themselves. I've read your work and some of your comments and I just can't fathom you not really knowing why or why you didn't like a piece of writing. Now this cracks me up, all these people who write or are entertaining thoughts of writing and maybe even being a professional writer saying they can't explain their thoughts....urrmmmmkkk??!! Isn't the whole process of writing the expression of one's thoughts???? Am I way off with this comment??? "I would much prefer empty comments of "I liked it", rather than nothing at all." Yes we disagree on this, for me a comment with no thought is worse than saying nothing at all, it is for me, an insult. To me the only difference between a thoughtless comment and no comment at all is that one has words, they both mean absolutely nothing cause a writer has no idea what someone truly thinks of a poem. Go take a look at the comments at Open Poetry, do you think they all really truly like each others poetry?.....Hell no!!! No one can like every piece of poetry (though I'm sure we all can appreciate the effort everyone puts into writing a poem)....but how can you tell when you have actually written a good poem (as in readers really dig it) when everything you post gets a bleed'in gold star?????? If everyone just tosses out "I love you" then how would you ever know when someone really does love you???? To me it's patronizing and condescending to have someone put only "Wow!" on their critique....I mean if something is that spectacular doesn't it deserve something a little better than "Wow!"??? Is my chair crooked or are the rest of the chairs crooked??? "You are right, of course, that our objective here is to learn from critiques from our colleagues and I am confident that will continue, even though some comments may not teach all that much. And you are right in prompting us to do real critiques whenever we can. So keep up the good work as moderator." Haven't you learned yet that my dellusional mind is always right: Thanks for your compliment and support, I was beginning to think that I was completely on my own with these thoughts. Now if you'd approach every poem like you did my comments here, with the same logic and critical eye.... all ya have to do is soak up the words for a minute and analyse how and why it made you feel however. Nothing to it man.Well thanks for your comments Pete, Trevor GYM: How about Gym Bladder, or Gym Booger....perhaps Gym Boogie? Are any of these getting your goat???? I was wondering when you come here and help out your "golden calf" What kind of Inquisitor are you....leaving me all high and dry PATCH: Well, since you haven't scorned me yet I'll take it as this sub-topic on your thread is okay with you, thanks for letting us use this space, I appreciate it. I do have another suggestion on this poem....well kinda on this poem. I was thinking about your poem today and I thought it would be interesting to see how you'd tackle the drink of "tea". I think in some ways tea has more of an ancient "mystical" history kinda feel to it. Have you thought about doing something like this? Just curious. Thanks again, Trevor |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
WOW!!! Trevor, I loved it. In seriousness, I think you overreacted a little with the "basted here." There is no question that your argument is valid and you are mostly correct in almost everything you say. I still have to claim that I would prefer a "I liked it" comment to none at all. At least I would know that someone read it. Also, no question that I would prefer a real constructive critique. That's why I only post in CA and not Open. But there is still a lot of poetry posted which I just don't think I can constructively contribute to. But you're probably right that if I like it I should know why. So I'll try harder. Again, my hat is off to you sir. Hang in there and persevere. Pete What terms shall I find sufficiently simple in their sublimity -- sufficiently sublime in their simplicity -- for the mere enunciation of my theme? Edgar Allan Poe |
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jenni Member
since 1999-09-11
Posts 478Washington D.C. |
trevor-- i agree with you 100% here. pointing to something particular that works or doesn't quite work makes you read a piece a little closer, and reading with a closer eye not only is more rewarding in and of itself, but makes you a better writer, too. you're right, it doesn't take too long to point to one or two things in a piece that you liked or disliked, at least i don't think so. i LOVE it when people say they liked a poem of mine, but i'm always so surprised when anyone likes anything i write that it's nice to know why, lol. and i can only get better if someone tells me what they think i'm doing wrong. perhaps i'm silly for thinking others might feel the same. anyway, there's my usual two cents (that's abowt four cents to you, my friend, lol). you, jim and brad are excellent moderators, and i, for one, really appreciate all you're doing out here. keep that rifle in the closet, though, ok? jenni |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
Philip, Oh you haven't turned on me as well have you? Is it cause I called ya Pete a couple of times I edited it >>>I noticed and thank you for the edit You know us Canadians and you Brits are almost the same...you should be looking out for me >>> Always willing to side with you Trevor against the injustices perpertrated by the autocrats south of your wonderful border "Short kind comments and expressions of enthusiasm are encouraging IF THEY ARE FROM A PERSON YOU RESPECT AS A POET OR CRITIC. There is a huge difference between an "Open" .... "Wow marvellous" and a "Wow marvellous" from Jenni in CA." Yes you are absolutely right, the difference being that I can't recall too many times that Jenni has ever put "Wow marvellous" on a critique at CA without at least briefly saying why she thought it marvellous. Maybe I'm wrong though....perhaps you could give me examples to prove me wrong. In my opinion, not only is Jenni an excellent writer but a courteous critiquer as well. >>> You were too hot off the mark ..lol I edited out Jenni 5 minutes after I posted and replaced her with “respected colleagues” ... >>>I think you need to stop your response after the words “You are absolutely right ..” because the remainder of your contention seizes upon Jenni (lol .. forgive me J) rather than concentrating on the central point that I was making, viz that short comment from esteemed colleagues is valuable comment .. I merely used Jenni as an example of an esteemed colleague, if Jenni chooses not to post short comments then that is up to her, but the force of my argument is in no way diminished in that if she WERE to post the aforementioned short comment it would be of more intrinsic value than maybe that of equivalent brevity in the Open Forum.. "I've read what you say about time availability, but the other dimension to this is the QUALITY of that time. I for instance have in theory unlimited time through most days but under the constant threat of the phone going or other interruptions it's pretty impossible to put a coherent critique together every day." So you're trying to tell me that people can't give a MILDLY indepth critique because they are worried the phone might ring or they get a few phone calls or because the tea kettle is whistling. Once again I think you guys are thinking I'm talking about writing a paper on every poem. What's the big deal about putting two extra sentences together about a couple of lines you liked or disliked or the reason you liked the poem? >>> Ok Trevor here I think we are talking about degree. If you simply mean that you can’t see why someone shouldn’t write: “I liked this poem because it had atmosphere and nice imagery” rather than: “I liked this poem” Then I agree with you. If you want me to go further than “I liked this poem because it had atmosphere and nice imagery” it means engaging what passes for a brain and that i assure you is not possible in my office most of the time .....lol ... "Short comments bring a good poem back to the top of the list where it may then get the attention of people with more time. This saves the writer her/himself from having to resort to devices such as: "...and "poof!", back up to the top of the list this goes...just like magic." touche mon frere with the "poof" reference Good response. However, short comments don't necessarily mean vague or lacking in depth. Like I've said now about a ZILLION times (okay maybe I'm padding that number a bit ), I'm not suggesting someone write pages and pages as their critique. I'm only suggesting that instead of just putting "Zowee that was neato-keano" that someone put something like, "I liked this poem, I thought you grabbed and kept the reader's attention throughout it with lines such as......(copy and paste)....however I thought....(copy and past) didn't work because it didn't seem to fit with the rest of the poem or the flow was a little choppy." >>> lol .. this is too much ... see above reply ... we may have to disagree on degree Now I timed that and it was less than a minute to write, >>> Point 1 .. you obviously type fast Point 2 .. you can obviously do two things at once Point 3 .. you haven’t got a P.A. like mine ... lol probably a bit more if you're a slower typer and including the cut and paste. I personally would trade a hundred of the "I love it"'s for one brief outline of what a reader thought was wrong with a poem of mine. But hey that's just me. Now I'll ask you the same question that I asked Rebel, Why CA? Why do you choose to post at CA? >>> well you know the answer very well Trevor, basically because i want in depth comment on my poems from people I respect .. not morale boosting two worders from people i don’t know. Now maybe you think I have answered my own argument, but of course if you read what i say carefully you’ll see that I’ve done nothing of the kind ..lol. Anyways, thanks Philip for taking the time to respond, your input is always appreciated. Take care, >>> I just love an interesting debate Trevor especially if it stops me worrying about where my next poem is coming from >>> You take care as well Philip |
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Hyperion New Member
since 1999-11-26
Posts 7Corning, N.Y. |
Lotta ink. I like this poem. Mostly for the reason already posted. But also because poetry can cause cool discussions like this. Next poem please. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
ROFL@martyr... my my trevor.... I think we're getting a tad out of context here... I wasn't shooting for martyrdom dear sir... I was pointing out that my life is segmented -- there is a scientific self and an artistic self -- and I don't care to mix the two... hope that clears things up for you... and if you'd prefer no more brief responses -- then I can assure you I'm perfectly capable of obliging that request... now then -- you ask why CA? please pardon me for enjoying poetry that has been posted here. |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
I've tried to avoid adding any more to this discussion, but, Trevor, if you will notice, I said that I thought the poem was great, that I liked it. Patch has been around a while, and those who have should know that a reply like that means, "I liked your wording, the format used etc.". When I said I would think of it later, that meant I found a personal touch in it. When I commented on the aroma, I was telling him that I thought he used good imaging techniques. I'm sure Patch understood this. One doesn't have to use technical terms to point out what they liked about a poem. Do ya see what I mean, Trev? "If I can ease one life the aching, Or cool one pain,... I shall not live in vain" - Emily Dickinson |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hello again, PETE AND JENNI: Thank you both for your input, much appreciated PHILIP: Hello again, "I think you need to stop your response after the words “You are absolutely right ..” because the remainder of your contention seizes upon Jenni (lol .. forgive me J) rather than concentrating on the central point that I was making, viz that short comment from esteemed colleagues is valuable comment .. I merely used Jenni as an example of an esteemed colleague." Maybe I didn't address the whole issue...my apoligies, as far as the good poets here who only take the time to say "Great stuff!" I say, do you really know if they like it or not or are they just being patronizing? I don't know....personally I can't get much out of "Great stuff!", how many times have you in your life said something like that to a close personal friend or family member only so their feelings wouldn't be hurt? When they say things like "Great stuff" it really doesn't convey the truth all the time. But if they were to say "Great stuff because...." well then you have a clearer picture as to why a reader might like the poem.....okay am I rambling and mumbling on enough here? "Ok Trevor here I think we are talking about degree. If you simply mean that you can’t see why someone shouldn’t write: “I liked this poem because it had atmosphere and nice imagery” rather than: “I liked this poem” Then I agree with you." Actually I think we're talking about content Philip, or at least I thought we were. Now comments on poetry without examples are pretty wasted. Why not follow up with an example or suggestion....copy and paste takes seconds. It's too bad that you don't see the huge difference between, "I liked this poem.", "I liked this poem because it had atmosphere and nice imagery." and "I liked this poem because the line "I was basking in the glow of moonlight" had strong imagery and the line "The smoke hung in the jazzy bar" created a powerful atmosphere."...yeah like those lines did either Anyways, a couple little lines adds a whole new perspective to a critique and it only takes a couple of extra minutes."well you know the answer very well Trevor, basically because i want in depth comment on my poems from people I respect .. not morale boosting two worders from people i don’t know. Now maybe you think I have answered my own argument, but of course if you read what i say carefully you’ll see that I’ve done nothing of the kind ..lol" I guess if I say you have you'll say that an indepth comment from the people you respect can be "Great Stuff!" or that your here only to get indepth critiques and not write them?? I dunno Philip your gonna have to fill me in a bit. Then if you haven't answered your own aurgument then I guess you still feel that at a place called CRITICAL ANALYSIS, it is okay to just write "Bravo" on a poem....but only if its from someone whose work and opinion you like??? The rest are insulting you if they put the same??? So does that mean its okay for someone like Jenni to post "Great!" on every critique because she is respected but not okay for someone who is new to the forum to do the same???? That's kinda what I'm getting from the whole deal. Once again if I'm wrong on the context....which I am quite frequently...or if I'm reading into your words too much, then accept my apoligies now, but please, please, please, give me a good reason why you don't think people should give a critical analysis at a forum called CRITICAL ANALYSIS....ummm doesn't the title of this place say it all? If someone has been here awhile, like Jenni (I'm just using her as an example ), should she then just post "Nice work" on the poems she wants, while the newer people have to post detailed critiques, or should everyone at least give a little effort into critiquing each others work no matter how good or bad a poet they are, what would happen at CA if we all adopted a policy of posting vague critiques just because we or someone thought we knew a bit about poetry? Does one persons "Nice job" really equate to an indepth critique by anyone? My opinion is no, I'd rather have "Billy the pimp" give me an indepth critique then have William Blake pop up from the grave and say "Tis Good Work"....well maybe I'm embelishing a bit....it would be kinda cool to see Blake rise from the dead ...but I swear I'd put him back in his grave if all he said was "Good poem sir" Anyways, I look forward to reading more of your comments on this matter, thanks again for taking the time to respond, take care, Trevor Hyperion: "Lotta ink. I like this poem. Mostly for the reason already posted. But also because poetry can cause cool discussions like this. Next poem please." Who wants this discussion cooled??? Lots of other things to read outside this thread. REBEL: "ROFL@martyr... my my trevor.... I think we're getting a tad out of context here... I wasn't shooting for martyrdom dear sir..." Maybe martyr was a tad over-the-top but what do you expect a person to think when you put, "This is in addition to all of the socio-economic impact of decisions I make and the effects they will have on the 250 families that depend on my analysis to get a paycheck every week -- and still maintain an envioronment where the breadwinners of those families feel good about coming through the door every monday morning.", saying something like that kinda reads like....I have other responsibilities....I have lots of important things to do.....and the truth of the matter is that most people here do have responsibilities and other important things to tackle....If martyr came off as an exhageration(sp?) it's only because your job description came off melo-dramatic. "I was pointing out that my life is segmented -- there is a scientific self and an artistic self -- and I don't care to mix the two." So you don't want to be analytical at a place called CRITICAL ANALYSIS, however I'm sure you want people to give you an indepth response to something you have labored over. Once again, I'll ask this question, why should anyone bother giving you an indepth ciritque if you won't bother giving them one? AND If everyone stopped giving indepth critiques then why have a place called CRITICAL ANALYSIS??? "and if you'd prefer no more brief responses -- then I can assure you I'm perfectly capable of obliging that request." That's exactly what I'm saying...skip over commenting on my work (though of course your more than welcome to read it) if all you have to say is "Nice Job!"...yes please oblige me on this request. I'd rather have you say nothing than something that offers me only questions. I can go to Open Poetry if I want someone to slap me on the back. But tell ya what, if you want I'll give you a indepth critique on your work if you will do the same for me. Gosh Trevor, what an interesting and fresh new idea...you help me and I'll help you...gosh why didn't I think of that before?...yeah I guess that is a little too sarcastic...sorry....but hey if it helps me get my point across. "now then -- you ask why CA? please pardon me for enjoying poetry that has been posted here." Now I don't normally do this....but you are pardoned. There now that the religious ceremony is over can ya cut out the sympathy drive and melodramatics and tell me why you POST at CA? Now if you post at a place called CRITICAL ANALYSIS then I'm suspecting that you want someone to give you an indepth analysis...am I right? Now if they take their precious time to respond in detail then why shouldn't you do the same? Are you exempt from it because you have a job that requires you to think? Giving only praises to a poet can be very detremental to their growth as a writer. Now look at it from the opposite side...if a poem was really bad or a couple lines from it were bad....would it then be okay to say, "I didn't like your poem" and leave it at that? Shouldn't a poet be given the reasons why someone liked or didn't like their poem and what they liked or didn't like about it? I dunno, does this sound crazy to you? Is the fact I'm trying to promote give and take between poets a disturbing thing for you? And once again, WHAT DO YOU THINK SHOULD BE GOING ON AT A PLACE CALLLLLLLEEEED.....CRITICAL ANALYSIS? Should we all be saying..."good poem", "bad poem" or should we be giving critical analysis to each others poetry? Or should you and a few others be excluded from giving indepth critiques while still recieving them??? Now once again I'm not telling you what to do, I'm only making suggestions that in my opinion might help improve CA. So please do as you please, act according to what you want from CA and what you think CA should be. PS, don't let pride of being right or wrong get in the way of your judgement. Anyways, I await your next response. Take care, Trevor |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hey Kris, "Patch has been around a while, and those who have should know that a reply like that means, "I liked your wording, the format used etc.". When I said I would think of it later, that meant I found a personal touch in it. When I commented on the aroma, I was telling him that I thought he used good imaging techniques. I'm sure Patch understood this." Well maybe so, but I'd like to hear it from Patch so lets ask him....I don't know if he is still following this thread, his thread, but hopefully he will respond. PATCH: Did you know exactly what Kris meant by her response or were you still curious as to what she specifically liked or disliked about the poem? So hopefully we will hear from him soon. Now if that's how you guys want to critique each others work, then who am I to raise a stink about it and I apoligize for draaagging ya into this whole thing. If people want just vague critiques then I'll drop the whole thing but some people here have expressed the fact that they want more indepth critques and I'm here to say that the only way this will happen if they tooo begin to give critical analysis towards poetry. "One doesn't have to use technical terms to point out what they liked about a poem. Do ya see what I mean, Trev?" Yep, I've only said that about a thousand times now Kris. You'll rarely see me use any real technical terminology. I really am pretty clueless when it comes to that stuff, but hey I'm trying to learn. But just because you liked the poem doesn't mean ya have to be vague either. Did you like the whole poem...every word...every sentence....every grammatic thing....every line break....perhaps if you really do care about Patch the poet and him improving his work then you could see how pointing out little things, whether likes or dislikes, within his work might help him. Still it's yours and his call. Anyways, thanks again for jumping in with some more input. Take care, Trevor |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Well -- this is what I get for trying to be nice to somebody. |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hello again, REBEL: Now a couple of people have brought to my attention that perhaps I'm moving away from the subject at hand and making this discussion with you into a more personal thing. And I think they are right. So I apoligize if my comments seemed hurtful. However, if you only respond with personal based comments rather than debating the issue than how can I respond without addressing the "personal" response you have given. Now in my last response to you I asked you "what do you think should be going on at a place called Critical Analysis?". I asked you if you want others to give you an indepth critique. And along with many other questions I was hoping you would respond to, I also asked, "Why should anyone bother with giving you an indepth critique if you don't want to do the same for them?"...yet still no reply on the issues. Instead you give me dramatic responses such as "and if you'd prefer no more brief responses -- then I can assure you I'm perfectly capable of obliging that request"....."now then -- you ask why CA? please pardon me for enjoying poetry that has been posted here"....and the best one so far...."Well -- this is what I get for trying to be nice to somebody."...You get what...someone trying to discuss something with you? Someone who disagrees with you? I'm sorry that you feel I'm attacking you rather than discussing an issue with you, if ya minus the smarmy comments I've made, all I've really done is present you with some questions that you seem to want to avoid with simple sympathy grabbing comments. Now I'm not trying to get rid of you or create some illusional hostility between us, or to get people to turn against each other, its okay for us to disagree, there is nothing wrong with that, completely normal but what seems to be going on is that everyone seems to agree that a place like this should be about sharing our thoughts with each other yet there are a lot of people who seem to think that sharing means them taking and others giving. This is a place for everyone and everyone is responsible to help shape this place. It's up to everyone to make a place like this work....we are all partners in this. I just hope that no one here is thinking that I feel like my turd doesn't stink....this discussion has little to do with me but rather us, a whole, a collective.....what do WE want out of CA and how can we obtain it? Honestly, I wish I didn't feel compelled to have this discussion, but I felt that it was time we addressed the issue because about two-three weeks ago I was ready to call this place quits....it seemed every poem I read had the exact same comments..."I love it" and this drove me mad and it got me wondering, how many others here feel the way I do, how many really good poets or poets with great potential have left this place because it was becoming just like every other patronizing place on the internet? Okay with that said let me add this, I don't dislike anyone here, I barely even know most of you, however I do honestly dislike the way a lot of you treat each other in regards to sharing. To be blunt I think some of you use the generous nature of a few without taking the time to repay a bit of the effort they put into helping you (whether or not you agree with their critique is irrelavent). Now you know who you are and you can try and justify your actions to make your sleep more comfy but the fact remains, you are taking but not giving. You want the pay but not have to work. I'm glad that a few people have taken the time to address the issue (that thanks does include you as well Rebel) though I wish more people from this forum would speak out and say what they want from CA. Anyways, interesting enough discussion, I hope to hear more from all of you, take care, Trevor |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
Ok Trevor Either you aren't reading what I'm saying or I'm not expressing myself properly. I don't think we're that far apart. Please go back to my very first comment: "Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with a person mixing short comments and longer well thought out quality critiques, for the following reasons:" To spell it out, what I am saying is that this is CA and in CA one would expect critical analysis of poems BUT occasionally I see nothing wrong with a person posting a few short comments of encouragement that don't require much thought to be put into them. Clearly however one would expect the bulk of that persons comments to be thought out critiques. I have already set out the three reasons as to WHY i think that so i don't propose to reiterate them. You say : "Now comments on poetry without examples are pretty wasted." >>> Generally I would agree but in certain circumstances I disagree. Bearing in mind my overriding point above ...... I can only repeat that: Short kind comments and expressions of enthusiasm are encouraging IF THEY ARE FROM A PERSON YOU RESPECT AS A POET OR CRITIC. There is a huge difference between an "Open" .... "Wow marvellous" and a "Wow marvellous" from a respected colleague in CA. And: Short comments bring a good poem back to the top of the list where it may then get the attention of people with more time. This saves the writer her/himself from having to resort to devices such as: "...and "poof!", back up to the top of the list this goes...just like magic." You say: "Why not follow up with an example or suggestion....copy and paste takes seconds. It's too bad that you don't see the huge difference between, "I liked this poem.", "I liked this poem because it had atmosphere and nice imagery." and "I liked this poem because the line "I was basking in the glow of moonlight" had strong imagery and the line "The smoke hung in the jazzy bar" created a powerful atmosphere."" >>> I really don't think we are going anywhere with this part of the discussion. My general point is that I whereas generally I invest a good deal of thought in a reply, sometimes I simply cannot do so but i still wish to show i liked the poem. I think this especially important in situations where you come to "know" your fellow poets in the forum. Sensitive ole me for instance posted a poem and got some replies, but a particular person whose judgement I value didn't reply. I (in my sensitive way) immediately assumed that this was because that person didn't like the poem ............... Nothing of the kind I found out later .... the person had simply been too busy to respond. The person had felt compelled to respond with a thought out response and simply didn't have time ... a quick two liner or even a two worder to show it had been read and appreciated would have been fine for me. The matter of whether it is in fact two words of 5 lines is in my view a matter for the responder taking inot account their particular circumstances at the time. "Degree" comes into it because if we are talking about the numbers of responses a person makes and we see that 50% of responses are short and "meaningless" and 50% are insightful and helpful, then i would say that this is not really acceptable in CA. 10% and 90% however would be in my book though obviously this is an entirely subjective opinion .You say: "Philip your gonna have to fill me in a bit. Then if you haven't answered your own aurgument then I guess you still feel that at a place called CRITICAL ANALYSIS, it is okay to just write "Bravo" on a poem....but only if its from someone whose work and opinion you like??? The rest are insulting you if they put the same??? So does that mean its okay for someone like Jenni to post "Great!" on every critique because she is respected but not okay for someone who is new to the forum to do the same???? That's kinda what I'm getting from the whole deal. Once again if I'm wrong on the context....which I am quite frequently...or if I'm reading into your words too much, then accept my apoligies now, but please, please, please, give me a good reason why you don't think people should give a critical analysis at a forum called CRITICAL ANALYSIS....ummm doesn't the title of this place say it all? If someone has been here awhile, like Jenni (I'm just using her as an example ), should she then just post "Nice work" on the poems she wants, while the newer people have to post detailed critiques, or should everyone at least give a little effort into critiquing each others work no matter how good or bad a poet they are, what would happen at CA if we all adopted a policy of posting vague critiques just because we or someone thought we knew a bit about poetry? Does one persons "Nice job" really equate to an indepth critique by anyone? My opinion is no, I'd rather have "Billy the pimp" give me an indepth critique then have William Blake pop up from the grave and say "Tis Good Work"....well maybe I'm embelishing a bit....it would be kinda cool to see Blake rise" >>>Trevor, hate to say it, but you've really gone into rant mode with the above ... lol Check out my clarifications above. I've NEVER said its ok for ANYONE be it Jenni or Joe Bloggs to post "Great" on EVERY critique (check out my percentages ..lol) .. Yes .. "Great" from Jenni WOULD mean something to me. "Great" from Joe Bloggs wouldn't. Yes and I agree a full critique from Joe Bloggs would be better than "Great" from even Trevor or Brad. Are we anywhere near agreement here? Philip [This message has been edited by Poertree (edited 02-08-2000).] |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
And btw Trevor I'd just like to join with Pete and Jenni and say that i think you are doing a really great job as a Moderator, including, I might add, promoting this current discussion which has been useful I think ... Bfn P |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Trevor, There aren't enough words in the english language to hurt my feelings buddy, so, apology graciously acknowledged but totally unnecessary. There's nothing wrong with you expressing your opinion nor is there anything wrong with me expressing mine. Which is what I've been doing all along. Your opinion is that my comments are personalizing this conversation -- what the hell are comments supposed to do guy??? That's what commments are all about -- to express our opinions -- something very personal--this isn't about statistical data. You and I have differing opinions on this issue and I've given the factual reasons for my opinions -- I expect different things from this place from the rest of you -- which is true for everyone -- we all have differing expectations... my expectation is recreational. Some of you seek publication and perhaps even fame -- I seek anything but. If you look at my profile I think you'll see that I spend almost 90 percent of my time at PIP reading and responding to others poetry. But I'll freely admit that I've never made it my objective to read everyone nor could I -- I read mostly the people who invited me here who have been my friends for a couple of years from other sites and a few whom I've become acquainted with since I got here. If there are helpful suggestions I give them -- even in Open -- if I merely enjoy a peice -- then I will applaud -- and I will continue to do so -- but since you've engaged me in this conversation I've had little time to read anything or respond -- and since my work load is cyclical I'll probably have less and less time over the rest of this quarter -- therefore -- any of my comments will probably be brief if at all. I'd think -- the main reason anyone would post here -- or anywhere -- is to be read first and foremost and you can't tell me that coming back to a post and finding the comment "Phenomenal" is not constructive or rewarding to anyone. Hate is a dead thing. Who of you would be a tomb? -Kahlil Gibran |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Pardons, Patch. Local Rebel: Arguably "phenomenal" would likely be rewarding but I have my doubts that it could be considered very constructive. I suppose it could be constructive in that it encourages the poet to write again and we all know that "practice makes perfect" (or so they say) but I think that its "constructiveness" is very limited and inefficient when compared to a simple or (better yet) thorough critique. A personal example: My first post in CA was an attempt at a sonnet. It had the correct number of lines, rhyme scheme and syllable count but it had a sporadic meter. If the only comments I received were "phenomenal" or "wow-super-awesome-neato-cool" then I suspect my second sonnet would have exhibited repeated mistakes. In such a case the short-but-sweet may do much to improve my self-esteem but it does little to improve my poetry. I think the same principal applies to unstructured poetry. Even free-verse, by necessity, has temporal movement and becoming a proficient free-verse writer (which I certainly am not) requires some measure of instruction and study for most people. Do people post their poetry in CA in order for it to be read? Yes. Moreso than to have it critiqued in detail? Yes (with the qualification that a detailed critique is the best evidence that someone REALLY read and tried to understand the piece). But I don't think we are talking about an either/or here. I think we are talking about a with/without. If you liked it and say what you liked about it, that is immeasurably of more value to the writer than simply saying you liked it. Just my opinion, though. Self-esteem is certainly important. But what compares to the self-esteem that accompanies plugging away at something until you get it right? (Pete and Kris, feel free to plug in the sense of achievement your first technically successful sonnet brought you and then remember the effort of your fellow CA dwellers in helping you along the way). Just thought I'd chime in and offer my two cents. This has been a fascinating and timely discussion. Thanks everyone. Jim |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hello Everyone, PHILIP: "Either you aren't reading what I'm saying or I'm not expressing myself properly. I don't think we're that far apart." It's probably me not taking the time to really let your words soak in and the fact that I've been in defensive mode now for a couple of days. "To spell it out, what I am saying is that this is CA and in CA one would expect critical analysis of poems BUT occasionally I see nothing wrong with a person posting a few short comments of encouragement that don't require much thought to be put into them. Clearly however one would expect the bulk of that persons comments to be thought out critiques." Why didn't ya just say that in the first place I agree that not everyone can put a long indepth critique for everypoem."I think this especially important in situations where you come to "know" your fellow poets in the forum. Sensitive ole me for instance posted a poem and got some replies, but a particular person whose judgement I value didn't reply. I (in my sensitive way) immediately assumed that this was because that person didn't like the poem ............... Nothing of the kind I found out later .... the person had simply been too busy to respond. The person had felt compelled to respond with a thought out response and simply didn't have time ... a quick two liner or even a two worder to show it had been read and appreciated would have been fine for me." I guess this is where we differ too, I'd rather wait for a detailed critique or get no critique at all from a person who's opinion I really respected then to just have a simple phrase critique from them. But this is why I'm trying to get people to talk about what they want from CA, so we know what each other wants from one another. ""Degree" comes into it because if we are talking about the numbers of responses a person makes and we see that 50% of responses are short and "meaningless" and 50% are insightful and helpful, then i would say that this is not really acceptable in CA. 10% and 90% however would be in my book though obviously this is an entirely subjective opinion." I see what you're getting at, my interpretation of what you said was the degrees between how much details within critiques rather than your example above. "Trevor, hate to say it, but you've really gone into rant mode with the above ... lol" A rant mode with the above?... I thought I was ranting the whole thread through But if I hadn't ranted and whined then would all of us be thinking about how we critique? I'm just trying to bring about communication and understanding.Also, and this is directed at CA as a whole, I personally think that if one doesn't have the time to do a lot of critiquing then maybe they should consider posting a few good critiques instead of 20 lousey ones. Heck, if everyone who posts a poem here would in return give at least two indepth critiqes, then everyone would have plenty advice to work with. Anyways Philip, thanks for responding and enduring my rants, I know it can be difficult at times Also thanks for the compliment on the moderator thingy.BTW what does "Bfn" mean?Take care, Trevor REBEL: Hello again, "Your opinion is that my comments are personalizing this conversation -- what the hell are comments supposed to do guy???" Well guy, my whole point guy, which I might have muddled with my wording guy, is that some were beginning to feel that maybe I was attacking you instead of the issue and they were fearful that it might turn into mudslinging rather than a discussion, guy. Hey guy, can ya imagine them thinking that?? And when I said ""personal" comments", personal being in quotations, I was trying to say that a response such as "Well -- this is what I get for trying to be nice to somebody." isn't really an expression of opinion but rather a whiney tactic for getting sympathy and it's hard to have a discussion with someone who doesn't address the issue at hand but instead falls back on cliched huffs."I expect different things from this place from the rest of you -- which is true for everyone -- we all have differing expectations... my expectation is recreational." I agree that we all expect slightly different things from CA, but I believe the goals are very similar, to become a better writer whether it be for recreational or in hopes of professionally writing. Now since you sometimes post at CA I'm gonna assume that even though your ambitions are "anything" but becoming a professional writer, you are still interested in improving your skills as a poet/writer. And because CA offers more indepth critiquing, you post poems that you want an honest articulate critique on at CA. Am I close here or do you honestly just post for the hell of it? You really don't care what people have to say about your poetry? It wouldn't matter to you if they put "I love it" or "I love it because....."??? "If you look at my profile I think you'll see that I spend almost 90 percent of my time at PIP reading and responding to others poetry." It's not always a matter of how often you respond but sometimes it about, how you respond, it isn't a race.....a million "I love it!" isn't all that helpful to anyone who is serious about improving their poetry. And I'm guessing that the reason most people come to CA is because they do want to improve on their writing skills. "But I'll freely admit that I've never made it my objective to read everyone nor could I -- I read mostly the people who invited me here who have been my friends for a couple of years from other sites and a few whom I've become acquainted with since I got here" But now that you know there are some here that don't want just a simple "I love it", don't you feel that perhaps you should either ignore their work or oblige them...especially since they use their precious time on your work? I'm just having trouble making sense of a person who wants to recieve indepth critiques but doesn't feel he should do the same. I know that you know what goes on in Open Poetry, is that the place you want, if not then why do you feel that you shouldn't be burdened with chipping in and helping out? Why are you trying to justify wanting and recieving detailed analysis of your poetry and not returning the favour? To me this translates as selfish. "If there are helpful suggestions I give them -- even in Open -- if I merely enjoy a peice -- then I will applaud -- and I will continue to do so--" But I think what some of us are getting at...and in no way am I speaking for the whole of CA, just a portion and I don't know how great or small a percentage it is,...that we don't want you to just applaud, praise is good but without telling someone why they are being praised then it's pretty near useless. I think some of us here are trying to tell you that we are a little annoyed that we put in a lot of effort into helping others and they seem to not want to help back. "I'd think -- the main reason anyone would post here -- or anywhere -- is to be read first and foremost" And that's where I think you're wrong. The main reason they posted at CA is to be critiqued on what they've written. I think the people at CA would rather have a couple of critiques then know that 50 people have read their poem but won't comment. They want to honestly know what a reader thinks of their work, that is why they come here, or at least that is why I do. "you can't tell me that coming back to a post and finding the comment "Phenomenal" is not constructive or rewarding to anyone." Sure it's rewarding....but I don't know how constructive it is. I guess it's rewarding to those who just want that, those who'd rather be told their work is wonderful then what might actually be the truth....comments like "Phenomenal" are great if you're trying to build up someone's ego. Compliments have one sole purpose, and that is to coddle the ego, nothing more, nothing less. People who recieve "I love it"s all the time usually do one of two things, become dillusional enough in thinking that they are the greatest poet who ever lived or become worried that some of them might not be telling them the truth about their poetry. When the first scenario happens, they go to a place like Open Poetry where, without effort, you are immediately told your poetry is wonderful (how constructive is that?), when the latter happens they search out places like CA or formal educational institutes. Now I'm glad you finally responded to a question, "Why do you post at CA?"...to be read first and foremost is your answer. Fair enough, but you still use that pointing finger to draw attention away from the fact that you are avoiding other questions such as....."Do you want indepth critiques?", and I think that's the case because you could probably get a lot more people reading your poems and responses at Open Poetry, so if you do want critiques... "Do you think it's fair that people give them to you and for you not to return the favour?" and "What do you think should be going on at a place called CA?"....lets change that last question to something else, "What do you think should be going on at a Restaurant?" or "What do you think should be going on at a Football game?" or "What do you think should be going on at a place where people are trying to grow as writers?". Now this is just a suggestion, consider taking some time to focus on more than just yourself. Instead of writing a fifteen minute response to a comment made on your poetry, consider using some of that time to respond to their poetry with a little more effort. Try sharing a bit more. Anyways that's all for now, take care, Trevor [This message has been edited by Trevor (edited 02-08-2000).] |
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Wordshaman Member
since 2000-01-17
Posts 110Illinois, USA |
Jesus--I leave for a couple days, and this is what happens? Well, at least I'm not the epic enemy this time. Talk to y'all later. |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
Trevor Guess we maybe wore through a few millimetres of finger tip epidermis discovering that we weren’t so far apart after all .....lol ........ Thanks again for raising all this .. now I’m gonna post a poem just so as you can do one of your famous “cut and paste” routines ... Meanwhile Bfn (Bye for now) Philip |
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Corazon Senior Member
since 2000-02-02
Posts 1209 |
well I for one, happen to agree with rebel, I do think that trevor raises some good points and with just a little more thought a one word post can turn into a small critique...BUT I do not have time to write long critiques, right now I am stealing time from work to post...and just because this is CA, doesn't mean that I can't come here for a lunch hour and comment sparely on 3 or 4 poems, instead of spending my whole lunch hour on one poem...I am not good at that kind of lengthy critique, and so I would be wasting the poets time and mine... and one last thing, as an example, I wrote a poem, and rebel commented on it; this poem was different from my usual style, in which I write about feelings and most comments made are how the poem made the reader feel, because that is my style of writing, I pour out from the heart. Now I knew this was different, and I didn't know how it would be received, but when rebel posted....he simply said "this is genius, your best ever" I didn't need him to expound, I knew just what he meant. Course coming from him, it meant even more, but one word can be enough if it is the right word, and the right person says it. and now my critque, I really liked this poem, I could see her (and myself) enjoying the aroma, warming her hands on the cup and getting lost in thought....I think its always a really good job when the poet makes you "see" what they saw oh and one last thought if you leave off the last line, I think the ending is perfect...I like the "I take a sip... and he's right" (and maybe add) we are... cause that's how drinking a really good cup of coffee makes you feel...you take that first sip and you say ahhhhhh, I am lucky, this is good.... oh and trevor if you have no idea who I am lol...I used to be Iloveit, you will remember me from a while back when i had more time to be here [This message has been edited by Corazon (edited 02-08-2000).] |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
"Well -- this is what I get for trying to be nice to somebody." That's not a plea for sympathy my dear moderator -- tis merely an expression of my opinion -- this is probably the only venue in the world where I'd ever catch the wrath of the room for paying someone a compliment. Do I post here to be read? Sure. As I said before -- I read my friends and specifically post to be read by them -- as a matter of fact -- most if not all -- of my writing is written to them, about myself, about what I like about them, about what I feel about them, and it is my sharing with them. Is phenomenal constructive??? certainly. How many more words does it take than phenomenal to describe a phenomenal work? Phenomenal isn't enough praise??? I have to praise every line individually? And, I don't type so slow that it takes me 15 minutes to make a response. Thanks. (Patch you're going to have a record number of responses to this thread!!) |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Well, since no one's probably going to read this far down, I'll add my thoughts here. Time is a problem for everyone and you should do what you think is appropriate with whatever time you can spare for CA. What worries me though are certain people who feel that can't do an in-depth comment for whatever reason (usually, something like I don't know anything about poetry). I don't like the idea of having those of us who can and those of us who can't running around here. Sure, some of us may have more knowledge of the technical side, may have read more poetry, but no one knows what makes a poem great, makes a poem stand out above the others. This process, I think, allows people to learn by doing and even if your goal is purely recreational (LR -- nothing wrong with that), reading a poem with a little more thought and a little more carefully can actually increase the enjoyment of a good poem. There is a tendency to see the comments as a way to help the writer improve his or her craft but it is also a way for the reader to enjoy the poem more. Just an opinion, Brad |
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Joanna T. Lopez Junior Member
since 2000-02-02
Posts 33El Paso, Texas |
Hi Patch! Gee! first of all ( hi! brad hi! jbrouder)what lead me to reading your piece was the 41 responses you had. I read it, honestly, it did'nt do a thing for me at first. Granted I am not making excuses, but my days start at 5:00 every morning minus week-ends ha I get to sleep in late on Sat & Sun ( 8:00 a.m.) 5 to 7:00 a.m. is MY TIME and I cherish every two of those hours! Anyway I read it, nothing. Lol and behold I remembered I had'nt had my fix for the morning and yes? that fix is, one and only one of the ole cup a COFFEE. After sipping on a few I felt ALIVE and I was ready for you, but I must admit I scrolled back and forth and back and forth, your piece and everyone elses replies. (I was so confused)!!! Personally I think that the cup of coffee, was the instigator which became a writers reality. It seems that the piece itself has nothing to do of importance with coffee, other than getting your thoughts motivated, which is usually the way it happens for me and I'm sure for many other writers. One never knows what will trigger that next new piece that touches so many in such different ways. A simple cup of coffee. Look what became of it, it made me start to think about the things you expressed on this wonderful piece of machinery. After reading it, I can honestly say I have alot more respect for the cup I drink every morning and actually feel kind of guilty for enjoying it so much, now that you made me think about the other lives and the means that they must go through so that I could have my fix every morning. I May be wrong about the meaning in your piece and if I am forgive me, but this is what I read and what it means to me. Sincerely, Joanna T. |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Joanna, Don't feel guilty... Patch's poem speaks of life...everywhere. The people who sweat to bring us the coffee we drink are just like we who work hard at what we do to provide a service for someone else...they do a service, a job, and at least they have one to do, a purpose in their lives. Patch had the vision to look into a cup of coffee and see the path that brought it to him. We should all do that more often with a lot of other services we recieve...such as this forum, and not feel guilty, but thankful. Kris If I can ease one life the aching, Or cool one pain,... I shall not live in vain - Emily Dickinson |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
Ok Trevor You're trying to make your point - using my percentages though you now need to post about 150 constructive critiques in order to keep the balance "correct" .. Take care Philip [This message has been edited by Poertree (edited 02-09-2000).] |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
And hello once again everyone, PHILIP: Ya I guess we outdid ourselves this time.... CORAZON, lloveit, etc.: "I do think that trevor raises some good points and with just a little more thought a one word post can turn into a small critique...BUT I do not have time to write long critiques" Sense make not u. I've said that in my opinion, not every critique has to be long. I think everyone is probably in agreement with this. Now your saying that you agree with me that a few extra words can turn a simple "I love it" into a helpful critique then you go on to say you don't have the time to write long critques. But what about the short helpful ones? For the time spent on thinking of why you can't make it a long critique you probably could have turned an "I love it" into a helpful critique. A lengthy critique is great, but so is a small one that might point of a mistake or suggestion or even an explanation as to why you are praising. I agree with both you and Rebel that when it comes to people critiquing their friends that there is nothing wrong with simple praise if that's what floats your boat but unfortunately these simple praises are not just between friends."and just because this is CA, doesn't mean that I can't come here for a lunch hour and comment sparely on 3 or 4 poems, instead of spending my whole lunch hour on one poem" Yes, just because this place is called CRITICAL ANALYSIS doesn't mean you have to give a critical analysis....but then why are we bothering????? Why don't we call this place Open Poetry #7 instead??? A restaurant is a place you go to have food and drinks, a football field is where they play football, a zoo is where they keep animals, a school is where people go to learn.....and a place called CRITICAL ANALYSIS is supposed to be a place where people go to give and recieve critical analysis of poetry....is this making sense to anyone??? "as an example, I wrote a poem, and rebel commented on it; this poem was different from my usual style, in which I write about feelings and most comments made are how the poem made the reader feel, because that is my style of writing, I pour out from the heart. Now I knew this was different, and I didn't know how it would be received, but when rebel posted....he simply said "this is genius, your best ever" I didn't need him to expound, I knew just what he meant." That's great that you two have the mental link thing going....I myself share half a brain with Brad . However is it fair to a stranger that knows nothing of who you are and how you interpret poetry to recieve a comment that tells him nothing. Why not prove you love something, why not expand on it if ya like a poem so the writer knows you aren't just being patronizing. Here's an example, please go onto CA and read my critiques at the bottom of almost any of the current poems posted there, now please tell me what I thought of all these poems....humor me, just a little excercise. Now if you think what I put was okay and justifiable then great, but if ya didn't can you tell me why? And if you think it's okay that you and Rebel can comment on people's poetry with simple "Great work!!!", then why can't everyone. And if that's all everyone did then why are we wasting our time at a place called CRITICAL ANALYSIS?"and now my critque, I really liked this poem, I could see her (and myself) enjoying the aroma, warming her hands on the cup and getting lost in thought....I think its always a really good job when the poet makes you "see" what they saw oh and one last thought if you leave off the last line, I think the ending is perfect...I like the "I take a sip... and he's right" (and maybe add) we are... cause that's how drinking a really good cup of coffee makes you feel...you take that first sip and you say ahhhhhh, I am lucky, this is good...." Now was that soooo difficult? That's all I'm suggesting we do, and of course more if someone feels inclined. In probably close to five minutes you read the poem, wrote your initial response, quoted a line as reference and made a suggestion for change. It's just that simple....if you can write poetry then you have the ability to critique them. Thanks for your input Corazon, much appreciated, Trevor REBEL: "That's not a plea for sympathy my dear moderator -- tis merely an expression of my opinion -- this is probably the only venue in the world where I'd ever catch the wrath of the room for paying someone a compliment." Well it isn't called CRITICAL ANALYSIS for nothing . It's too bad that you don't understand the physchology(sp?) behind your own words...if it's not a sympathy thing then why do you rebuttal with a comment regarding a hardship (a story, scenario, etc. that is used to gain sympathy) such as "this is probably the only venue in the world where I'd ever catch the wrath of the room for paying someone a compliment.", now this is a hardship story because you use it as a reference to something you consider negative. And usually when someone expresses negativity it is to get people to side with their plight thereby evoking change. You can call it an opinion if you want, you can call it a dog or an ice cream cone for all I care but your opinion is still being used to grab sympathy just like some of my comments are....though some are more blantent and melo-dramitic than others. And now I'm not saying there is anything wrong with such things however I'm trying to discuss things with you and you fall back on this remedial reversal technique. "Tis" that not true?? Am I close in my assesment???Now here I've been asking you questions and you just don't seem to be too anxious to really answer them? Why is that? "Do I post here to be read? Sure. As I said before -- I read my friends and specifically post to be read by them -- as a matter of fact -- most if not all -- of my writing is written to them, about myself, about what I like about them, about what I feel about them, and it is my sharing with them." Well how do you know if someone has read something? By a critique. How do you know what someone really thought of your poem? By an indepth critique. Now as far as JUST responding to friends and the back pat society, in my opinion, if people want this then fine. But can you honestly tell me your friends just want you to put "Good job!" on your work or would you rather have an indepth critique?...and yes I know all about everyone's tremendously busy schedule but if you guys are really such good friends then why don't you take a little extra time to really help each other by giving good critiques? "Is phenomenal constructive??? certainly. How many more words does it take than phenomenal to describe a phenomenal work? Phenomenal isn't enough praise??? I have to praise every line individually?" By just saying "phenomenal" you are telling the person not to ever change a thing in their poem. You are telling them that this poem can not ever be improved in your opinion....Now for a writer to start thinking that means their death, the minute a writer begins to think that they begin to become cliched, generic and bland....and that ain't good writing. Now if you tell someone "phenomenal because...." then you give them a starting point for growth instead of a starting point for complacency. Is this is true, then is a simple "phenomenal" really constructive? If ya feel like humoring me for aurguement's sake, would you be so kind as to read all the critiques I posted at CA at around, 4:30 or so.....can't miss em, they're on everyone almost.....Now after you do that, please HONESTLY tell me if you think me critiques were good. Did I accomplish telling the writers my opinion? I don't recall ever suggesting we all spend the time needed to critique every line....so once again Rebel reverts to the old exhaggeration ploy. Also you seem to think that praise and feeding egos is the most beneficial way a writer improves....please refer back to an earlier comment as to why I disagree with this. "And, I don't type so slow that it takes me 15 minutes to make a response." Well if it isn't your fingers that are slow it must be something else that is kinda slow...think of the attic in a house as a analogy.... J/K, needed to get a razz out to lighten my mood.So here's the questions you've yet to answer that I keep asking and asking and you keep using the dodge tactics of Canadian politicians to escape, I'll even add numbers so you can quick reference them and save some time from your busy schedule... (1)"Do you want indepth critiques?" (2)"Do you think it's fair that people give them to you and for you not to return the favour?" (3)"What do you think should be going on at a place called CA?" Now I probably could answer these questions for you in a pretty accurate manner but I'd rather hear it from the horses mouth. On top of all those questions maybe you should also ask yourself why you were avoiding them? Well that's all the thoughts I can squeeze out of this ripe mellon for now, I look forward to reading your response and pray to a god, perhaps a few gods, that you will take the few seconds needed to answer the questions I posed. Thanks and take care, Trevor |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hello, boy I'm here more than at the Pub lately....goodbye beloved beer gut PHILIP: If ya check out how many posts I have in relation to the number of poems I've posted (minus that long streak of quick responses) then you'd probably discover that I'm probably close to the percentage line finally.....how many replies have you ever read of mine that were short up until today??? Okay, I'll stop with the poor misunderstood wo-is-me, act. Now since you were saying it should be a percentage (which I agree with ya though our figures vary), and since I'm probably now close to that percentage, does that mean I was justified in the way I responded to people's poetry today? Just curious as to what you think. Thanks again Philip, take care, Trehvir Also I'd like to take the time and apoligize to everyone for the brief critique I put on all of your poetry, I needed to illustrate an opinion. So once again sorry.... Terever |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
The same rule of thumb applies to a response as applies to the poem itself, or a short story, or a book, or a newspaper article, or a thesis... All writings should be the length of a woman's dress: short enough to be interesting and long enough to cover the subject...  Now if you''ll excuse me I have a meeting. [This message has been edited by Local Rebel (edited 02-10-2000).] |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
Trevor I have a huge respect for your writing and your critiques and also for the effort and time you took to thoroughly explore the question raised in this thread .. You felt you had to make a point with your short posts and I'm not going to criticise you for that. If anyone had a right to do it you did, although, to be honest, I thought that you dealt with the issues raised in this thread extremely adroitly, and no-one could be in any doubt as to the force of your argument with or without the little posts. I guess I think you did the forum and all of us a big favour by airing all this in such detail, I don't know whether it has had the same exposure ever before in the past, but, if not, then I think maybe this thread should be "preserved for future generations". After all it is the quality and detail of the responses which distinguishes CA from the other forums and if that is forgotten or lost then we might as well all go off somewhere else .Trevor let me say again .. you did a great job here .. and IMHO you are doing a great job as moderator .. Take care Philip |
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roxane Senior Member
since 1999-09-02
Posts 505us |
i thought that we were here to offer opinions on poetry, not to have a certain length of critique. oh well. if someone doesn't offer a very involved critique on one of my poems, i can only assume that they either a) didn't enjoy it too much, b)enjoyed it but didn't have enough time to articulate, or c) they were just being kind/rude. once again, sadly, the most popular post is an argument, not a poem. |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
So glad you said that, Roxane, especially the last line. Thank you for being so wise. |
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jenni Member
since 1999-09-11
Posts 478Washington D.C. |
good lord, rox, read trevor's comments again (or any one of them, take your pick, lol). no-one is saying a comment has to be any certain length at ALL... the point is that a comment in "critical analysis" should have at least SOME critical analysis in it. i'm as mystifed as trevor, i really don't see what the problem is here, why this is so hard for everyone to understand. and this "controversy" is entirely different from the cougaryouth thing, this is not peripheral at all, but goes to the heart of what the forum is all about. your comment above is a perfect case in point; a simple "nice work" doesn't give you anything to go on at all, really, and you're left to assume any number of contradictory things; in other words, you're left with nothing much at all. what's the point of the forum then??? |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hello, JENNI: Thank you soooooo much!!!! You saved me ooooddles of writing time....but then again ya just know I have to comment What I think a bit of the problem some people are having with this discussion is that they might be thinking that I'm trying to tell them what to do...which I'm not, I'm only suggesting that a place called CRITICAL ANALYSIS (by definition, does that name mean anything you??) be about giving and recieving critical analysis of poetry. How many times have I said that now Jenni??? ROXANNE: "i can only assume that they either a) didn't enjoy it too much, b)enjoyed it but didn't have enough time to articulate, or c) they were just being kind/rude." Which one is it a,b, or c??? What's the point of them giving you a critique if afterwords you still have no clue to what they thought of your poem??? Do you honestly think that everytime someone has just put down a simple "I love this!" on one of your poems that they meant it??? God if this were true then we'd all be published and living off the gazzillions of coinage that poets make "once again, sadly, the most popular post is an argument, not a poem" Discussion, not an aurgument Why is this such a sad thing? To discuss what direction CA should move in is a sad thing? It is something that involves everyone here and I'm surprised that more people haven't stepped forward and expressed their opinion on what they think CA should "be". Thanks for your comments though, take care PHILIP: Thanks again for all your input on this subject and for the compliments. Take care KRISTINE: I'm guessing by your agreement with Roxanne that you thought my critique of "Night Terrors" was a good one and appropriate? You like not knowing what people think about your work. If I decided to put "I love this!" on one of your poems, do you think that I loved it, or do you think that I didn't? Do you know if I even read it? Now this next part is directed specifically at anyone so I'll just say thank you again for your comments and take care, Now I'm a little stunned that people are having such a difficult time with this. All I'm suggesting is that a place called CRITICAL ANALYSIS, set up for the critical analysis of poetry, focus on critically analysing poetry. Is that such a far fetched concept??? Why do those who want no such thing coming here??? Surely they think that getting critical analysis on their work is good....but then they turn around with a lazy man's excuse saying they should get constructive feedback on their work but not have to give it because they are tooooo busy keeping the world together for us people who do nothing but post here 24hrs a day....cause lord knows they're the only ones who have a life outside of CA....was that sarcastic enough for everyone??? I don't go to a bank to eat donuts nor do I go to a fish store to play basketball and personally I don't go to a place called CRITICAL ANALYSIS to recieve wishy-washy patronizing comments on a poem that I put a lot of work and thought into. When you like a poem consider telling the writer why so they have an idea of what they did right, when you dislike a poem consider telling them why so they might be able to "fix" the problem. Also disliking a poem is as natural as liking one, so to everyone, don't be afraid to be honest and say, "I didn't really like this poem"....it's not taboo nor forbidden....and take comments like that not as an insult but as an opinion of a poem. REBEL: "The same rule of thumb applies to a response as applies to the poem itself, or a short story, or a book, or a newspaper article, or a thesis..." Does this mean you refuse to answer the questions I ask? Could you answer this question perhaps? "Why won't you answer the questions I ask?" Are you having trouble understanding them, should I word them differently??? "All writings should be the length of a woman's dress: short enough to be interesting and long enough to cover the subject..." I was wondering if you could be more vague with your response, I'm having trouble intaking it all. Are you trying to compare a critique of "Good Job!" to an articulate newspaper, novel, thesis???? Now with the comment you wrote it sounds like you agree that there should be some depth to a critique and that it shouldn't be vague, cause basically that comment kinda says...make sure that it is indepth enough to inform but not long enough to bore. So I'll ask you a question from a few days back.....Is a simple "Good poem!" critique actually a good critique? If it isn't then why would you condone the posting of them? "Now if you''ll excuse me I have a meeting." Okay see ya, have fun and tell the Devil I said hi. Take care, Trevor |
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Corazon Senior Member
since 2000-02-02
Posts 1209 |
well, I can appreciate roxanne's sentiments....this has been gone over and over til it is now going to run people off instead of improving CA....IMHO that is... trevor, of course you give good critiques, every one of yours I have read is good...I might or might not agree, but still they are detailed and extensive....some do, some don't have time for that...we can still come here and enjoy...I think nuff has been said... |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hello, CORAZON: "IMHO that is...trevor, of course you give good critiques, every one of yours I have read is good...I might or might not agree, but still they are detailed and extensive...." This has nothing to do with how I critique....It's about the level of critiquing of CA....I know not everyone has the time to give indepth critiques and I'm not basing the level of critiquing on how good or poorly I critique but on what a person should expect when they go into a forum called "CRITICAL ANALYSIS", when they walk in do you think they expect four single syllable words and an exclamation mark or do you think they expect a critical analysis on their poem or a portion of their poem? What do you expect when you come here? "some do, some don't have time for that... we can still come here and enjoy" If you have time to write and post your poems, surely you must be able to squeeze in a COUPLE extra thoughtful sentences??? Is my suggestion that people actually think about what they read at a poetry forum call CRITICAL ANALYSIS really all that offensive???? WHY FOR THE LOVE OF GOD SHOULD ANYONE TAKE THE TIME TO GIVE ANYBODY AN INDEPTH CRITIQUE IF THEY WON"T SPEND THE TIME TO DO THE SAME....AND IF WE ALL ACTED LIKE THAT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO THIS PLACE THAT YOU SAY YOU LIKE TO "COME HERE AND ENJOY"??????? Now why do you like this place and why do you post? Perhaps you come here to read the some of the good poetry...."okay"....perhaps you come here to socialize...."fair enough"....and perhaps you post here to get a critical analysis of your poem....."GREAT!".....but then you say that you don't have time to do the same....that you'll gladly take some helpful critiques all the time but you don't want to give them out because you somehow feel that everyone has the time for you but not you for them?????Why is your time sooo much more precious than everyone elses??? In my opinion, to condone simple useless comments at a place called CRITICAL ANALYSIS is to defeat the purpose of its existence. To say that some people should be exempt from giving insightful critiques is to defeat the purpose of CA and to be unfair to others. Here's a suggestion, if you don't have time to post a constructive critique, why don't you hold off posting a vague useless one and then when you do have time, then reply with a useful indepth critique. What if all the people here who frequently post detailed critiques began to say, "I don't have the time", then what would happen??????? A place like this only survives through the efforts of everyone and not by fifty percent putting in the effort and the other fifty percentage leeching off of it. "...I think nuff has been said" So you think we should drop the subject? Do you think this issue has been resolved? Would it suit you if we all just pretended that we never even talked about this? I don't remember forcing you to respond to this, so now if you're still thinking about it and commenting on it, why do you feel others should stop? Anyways, my feathers are a little ruffled tonight so I sincerely apoligize if my words sounded harsh, take care, Trevor |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Trevor, You ask why people don't understand the definition of CA. Just who's definition are we supposed to go by...your's? "Of or pertaining to critics or criticism" linked with "a statement of results, a synopsis" would translate to a critique. A critique is a "critical review or commentary". Those here know those commentaries could be positive or negative, basically "honest", instead of the kind of comments recieved in other forums. Perhaps you should draw up a rule book about what we have to say, and how we have to say it. (And you inferred I was a Marxist )You also asked me what I thought of your reply to my last poem. I thought that you were trying to make a point for yourself, plain and simple. I don't think I have ever put one word, or even one short sentence as a reply to a poem, and am not at all condoning that form of response. (If I have, I apologize, but I do not remember ever doing so.) The point I am trying to make is that we all have our own manner of critiquing, and IMHO it is not democratic to request that we all adopt the slice and dice, or cut and paste form. Some of you do that very well...others are more comfortable doing critiques in their own way, even though you may think those critiques lack enough time or substance. That is your opinion, and some others, but that does not make it valid for you to ask us all to do something we may not wish to do. Perhaps a suggestion should be made in the rules of CA about the type of critiques the moderators agree on...only a suggestion. Then, as new writers come in, they can be referred to the suggestion, and you would see more in depth critiques. I swear, this is the last time I will post on this subject. Canucklehead...it's time to put this one to rest already, eh?Kristine If I can ease one life the aching, Or cool one pain,... I shall not live in vain - Emily Dickinson |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
The definition of CA is the following: Post poems here to invite more in-depth critiques, and join the conversations on what makes poetry work. Trevor is asking to remember this: Remember that communication is a two-way street Along with: Please try to comment on at least two other poems And: It's okay to tell someone that you dislike a poem here but make sure it is directed at the poem and not the poet. Remember to explain why you don't like the poem (or if you don't know, say that). And I would add if you like the poem, try to explain why you like the poem. Has this been going on too long? Well, it certainly has the record for CA but hasn't beaten some of the record holders at OP or the discussion forums. Maybe we should change the little sidebar definition of CA to "invite and give more in-depth" critiques. Maybe we should rewrite the guidelines for posting comments here (Ron wrote most of that and I agree with it but perhaps it's not clear enough). Maybe we should rewrite the guildlines for posting here (I wrote a large part of that but perhaps it's not clear enough). Just to recap: Roxane has stated the problem very concisely. Simple comments don't tell you anything. If you want, you should give. Time is an issue for everybody; make your own choices. Nobody is telling anybody what to do. I have to admit that when I took over at CA, I never intended it to grow as it has. I just wanted a place, a niche, for people who want to discuss poetry on a slightly different level than OP. That's all. My fear (and the result is the same as Trevor's which may or may not be the same fear) is that some people will see CA as a place to learn without teaching and since we all read poetry, it's false, I think, to assume that someone can't learn from your opinion. We're all in this together. Kristine, So, you're a Marxist, huh. Guess, we'll have to talk shop some time. Brad |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
The devil sends his regards! |
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Hyperion New Member
since 1999-11-26
Posts 7Corning, N.Y. |
Yawn. Hyperion |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Hyperion: What do you mean, "Yawn"?. Did Patch's poem remind you that you needed a cup of coffee or did you not appreciate the discussion? Jim |
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Wordshaman Member
since 2000-01-17
Posts 110Illinois, USA |
Well, here we are folks. Reply number sixty. Can you believe it? I feel the need to make a Jerry Springer wrap-up reply at this point, in some strange way. I don't have time for on-line much these days, so this will most likely be the only thing I make reply to tonight...the poetry around here is good, though...contact me at my e-mail address (wordshaman@hotmail.com) if you would REALLY like me to respond to something. Otherwise I have, I'm afraid, little time. This was, if you have enough emotional distance to look at the "big picture", a case of "the new guy" trying to bring about radical change. Was he right or wrong? Well, let's take a look... We all hate when the new guy comes in with his radical new ideas and tries to make waves. They wake us up from our comfort. We hate that. It seems pretentious, holier-than thou, at times. But why do we hate this? Because we ourselves at times are holier-than thou (who the heck does he think HE is?) So we know Trevor at least had good intentions, as opposed to some god-awful ivory tower college boy with his conceptual knowledge tryin' to teach us folks with real FIELD experience a thing or two...he had no evil intentions in trying to critique the level of critiques. He merely wanted more useful things to be said of our poetry. That IS why we're here. Otherwise, get thee to a poetry APPRECIATION room. There will be little or none of THAT here. So did Trevor (the new guy) accomplish anything with this stoic stand against mediocrity in critique? Yes. For a short time, the level of critique will improve. But as time passes, and Trevor becomes the proverbial frog being slowly boiled to death unbeknownst to him (due to the small, graduated increases in heat), the critiques will again slide again into the land of the lazy. But that's alright. I just may be playing the part of the wizened sage who comes around in a very amused way to explain how it's actually going to be once the rush of wondrous idealism is wrenched out of this place. I will cause little change in my life in the way of rules and regulations and suggestions--I know human nature, or at least believe I do, and we always slide unknowingly back whence we came in my experience. That's not what I'm here for. I'm here to change the language. Trevor will walk away from this discussion patting his own back. He will be so happy for a while that he won't pay attention to the stuff that he was complaining about. The fight having been "won" will be enough for him. We will slide back. Nothing wrong with that. And if Trevor reads this and decides I have to be wrong, he will become nagging and overbearing, and everyone will hate him. But I think he had the best of intentions, so I commend him in that respect. Now let's get the discussion back to writing. We're pretty good with that whole "language" thing, ja? Whatever the outcome, let's just enjoy each other's writing while we're dining on the words and presenting them on our plates in ways that appeases our own aesthetic value. Adieu et au revoir. Wordshaman |
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