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Not A Poet
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since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA

0 posted 2000-02-03 09:56 AM


The structurists should enjoy analyzing this one but I'm afraid our anarchists may not be so inclined. The source will be immediately apparent but I hope this is a little different from the usual knock off. Thanks for reading.


                          The Dream

(With gratitude and apology to the master, Edgar Allan Poe)


Once upon a midnight, helpless, I lay dreaming, ever restless,
Had a vision of her, saw her perfect beauty I adore;
Oh she lay so close to me, and how I loved her, now I see,
Wished this trice might ever be, her in my arms as once before.
It was real or so did seem, then I awoke to dream no more.
      Was a dream and nothing more.

Just a dream, so joyful, cheerful; waking now remorseful, tearful;
Wishing I could go on dreaming sweetest dreams like that once more,
Sleeping, dreaming dreams so dear of her soft breast held to me near,
Losing that I deeply fear, to dream, to wake alone once more.
Fear to sleep that I might dream and wake alone for evermore.
      Just a dream and nothing more.

Oh so clearly I remember it was in the longest summer
And each day seemed even hotter than the hottest one before.
Eagerly I sought the midday, vainly hoped that in some fair way
We would meet and she might say how she had missed me even more -
More than I had hoped she would - God I missed her so much more.
      Missed her, loved her, so much more.

Then the teaming 'pressive sad gloom of the lonely darkened bedroom
Brought its awful weight to bear upon my heart, my mind and more;
That was when I started thinking, and was why I started thinking -
Must it be I had been drinking some sweet moments from before?
What cruel tricks a mind can play - fantastic hopes it holds in store.
      Missed her, loved her, even more.

Soon my thoughts began to wander unto blankness, cast asunder;
I must waken, quit the bed, and set my feet firm on the floor.
Into darkness I was peering, as I stood there lonely, fearing;
My befuddled mind was bearing more than ever borne before -
That the sleepy, lonely, lovely, cherished thoughts of her I bore
      Are confused for evermore.

With that musing I was thinking of new fears - my heart was sinking.
Sat back down on rumpled bed and wished to dream fair dream once more;
Through the night I sat there wond'ring how my heart, within me burning,
Might be freed this pond'rous yearning - yearning for her love once more;
Just to hold her close again, caress her - know her love once more.
      Might that happen nevermore?

Be it love or lust or passion, my poor heart can only fashion
Something worthy of some meaning, as not washed upon the shore
By the storms of life's remorseless, ever endless, often senseless
Quest for fervor of a temptress - for the turmoil to explore,
For the fury and the passion, love's confusion to explore.
      Understanding nevermore.

Lest it seem that I am thinking of some vulgar lusty linking
To a less than worthy woman, your forgiveness I implore;
No, I mean a lovely goddess, whom you know is truly faultless,
To impeach her virtue's senseless - all her charm I do adore.
Love her beauty and her wit, her smile, her touch, all that and more.
      She may love me nevermore.

In her soulful eyes I see a sweetheart, who most dear to me,
Made my heart sing every time I saw the smile she always wore.
That she could be my dear lover made me feel a little younger;
Might it last a little longer - longer than the time before -
Might that lovely, special passion linger longer than before?
      May I love her? Nevermore.

Just the soft touch of her hand gave me a thrill - you'd understand -
In my arms to hold her tightly made me tremble to the core,
And to hold her shapely hips, caress her with my finger tips,
Taste the love that's on her lips … I need that love for evermore.
Tender touches, loving gestures, sweetest kisses I adore.
      May I kiss her? Nevermore.

Ah, that sweetest time in passing of our two lives briefly crossing
Makes me wonder how it happened - makes me now my soul outpour.
All those dear words which were spoken truly were a loving token
From a heart which now is broken - one whose blood runs on the floor.
Broken heart whose blood now runs with gloomy darkness gloating o'er.
      May I see her? Nevermore.

Oh to sleep and dream again, to feel her love transcend the pain;
Lovely dream with her so close, so dear to me I might ignore
Want and sorrow I have known. Since last we met 'twas surely shown
Broken heart I can't condone . . . I miss her love for evermore.
And my heart from out that dream, its mem'ries shattered on the floor,
      Shall be set free … Nevermore.



 Pete

What terms shall I find sufficiently simple in their sublimity --
sufficiently sublime in their simplicity --
for the mere enunciation of my theme?
Edgar Allan Poe



© Copyright 2000 Pete Rawlings - All Rights Reserved
jbouder
Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash
1 posted 2000-02-03 10:15 AM


Pete:

You are right that this is "a little different from the usual knockoff".  I love "The Raven" by Poe and you are right that the source of your inspiration is readily apparent (we have a mutual liking of Poe ... the Ogre, however, doesn't share our good taste in this case).  What I hope you've gained from this lengthy work is some insight and experience into and in the use of meter and long and short syllables.  Once you start seeing the intricate interplay of meter and sound you never look at poetry the same way.  Or maybe that is merely a "problem" we left brainers have.  

The words of the poem were touching and moving.  I think the format of the poem being so much like Poe's "The Raven" made me want to slip into the sense of foreboding that is so prominent in Poe's work.  Someone who has never read "The Raven" may react in a completely opposite way, however, so I am sitting back to watch with great interest.

Regardless of my nagging desire to read this with a sense of foreboding, you preserved the rhythm beautifully.  I only stumbled over the meter in a few lines and I'm not entirely sure those were your fault.  An example of this is: "Then the teaming 'pressive sad gloom of the lonely darkened bedroom".  I thought it would sound better as: "Then the teaming 'pressive gloom of the lonely darkened room".  Just my opinion.

Good job on this piece.  The format and some of the endwords may be construed as being "knock-offs" but the subject matter told in the manner it is told is an original.  Thanks for the read.


 Jim

"If I rest, I rust." - Martin Luther


Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA
2 posted 2000-02-03 12:17 PM


Thanks Jim,

I see what you mean on that line you mentioned. It is a little off isn't it. I think the problem is with "sad gloom" wanting to be read as "SAD-gloom" to fit the meter. But you will notice that the entire poem is trochaic octameter (tetrameter on the last line of each stanza) although some lines do have masculine endings. This results in 16 or 15 syllables per line. Your suggestion has only 14, which causes a missing syllable in the middle of the line. So it just won't work.

Also, the first line of each stanza has an internal rhyme in the fourth foot on the long or short syllable to match the end word's stress. Finally, the only first lines which have masculine endings are the 9th, 10th and 12th, where the mood is intended to be different.

I may be able to alter that line along the order of
   THEN the TEAM-ing 'PRESS-ive GLOOM-xxxx OF the LONE-ly DARK-ened ROOM

if I could come up with something to replace the "xxxx" or maybe "GLOOM-xxxx" but I sure don't want to change the meaning or feel of that line.

Well thanks for your comments and your help. I too will be watching and hoping for other comments with great interest. And you're right, this was a learning experience. But it was also a great deal of fun to write although it did take a lot of work to express exactly what I wanted while staying within the bounds of "The Raven."


 Pete

What terms shall I find sufficiently simple in their sublimity --
sufficiently sublime in their simplicity --
for the mere enunciation of my theme?
Edgar Allan Poe



warmhrt
Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563

3 posted 2000-02-03 12:59 PM


Pete,
Wonderful piece...but then, being a romantic,
what else could I say? You put such emotion into these pieces of the "goddess"; she must be everything you ever desired in a woman.
Tell us more...

Great work, Pete,
Kristine

P.S. Must be a vernacular phrase, but "quit the bed..." had me taking a second glance. I just love those colloquialisms...charming.
< !signature-->

 "If I can ease one life the aching,
Or cool one pain,...
I shall not live in vain" - Emily Dickinson


[This message has been edited by warmhrt (edited 02-03-2000).]

jenni
Member
since 1999-09-11
Posts 478
Washington D.C.
4 posted 2000-02-03 02:28 PM


pete--

this is an interesting piece.  you certainly challenged yourself by attempting to mimic the metrical and at least some of the rhyme scheme of the raven, lol.

generally i thought you did an excellent job; a few of the lines seemed awkward to me, though.  nothing major, just a little "forced" feeling every now and then:

second stanza, line 3

SLEEPing, DREAMing DREAMS so DEAR of HER soft BREAST held TO me NEAR (your stresses)

reads more naturally, i think as:
... of her SOFT BREAST, HELD to me NEAR

third stanza, line 1, stress on first word "and" feels forced, line 3, too, midday and fair way.  there's others, too, i think, ninth stanza, line 2 ('THAT she COULD be MY dear LOVEr...' reads more naturally 'that SHE could BE my DEAR LOVEr') and stanza 11, lines 1 and 3.  

and of course stanza 4, line 1, "then the teaming 'pressive sad gloom of the lonely darkened bedroom".  (first of all, shouldn't it be 'teeming'?)  i think jim was on the right track, but he did leave an unstressed beat out; how about "then the teeming 'pressive gloom within my lonely darkened room"...?  just a suggestion.  

one thing that kind of bothered me about the piece, though, was the internal rhymes in the first lines.  in most cases, yes, the fourth foot and the eighth foot end with kind of the same sound, but alot of times they just don't sound like rhymes.  this is, i think, because you are frequently rhyming the unstressed sounds at the ends of words, resulting in a weak rhyme:

helpless/restless
remember/summer
wander/asunder
passing/crossing
again/pain

these words rhyme?  yeah, poe kind of does it, too, with evil/devil, but i think you've gone a little too far, making the rhymes sound forced.  (poe, as i recall, rhymes 'remember' with 'december', no?)  i don't know, that's just how it sounds to me.  

one other thing i found a little jarring here was, beginning in stanza 8, the speaker directly addressing the reader.  this is just my personal preference here, there's certainly nothing inherently wrong with it, i just thought it snapped the reader out of the speaker's mind and thoughts, and established a distance between the speaker and reader that wasn't really there before.  i think the piece would be more effective without it.  

finally, i thought the broken heart 'whose blood runs on the floor' was a little too much, a bit too melodramatic.  

you did a really nice job with this, though; although 'the raven' is not one of my favorites (nor anything of poe's, for that matter, lol), it has a challenging, complicated structure not easliy imitated, and you boldly took it on.  and your story....well, quite romantic, indeed.  

well done, pete.

jenni


Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA
5 posted 2000-02-03 03:06 PM


Kris,

Thank you for commenting. I'm glad you liked it. It was a lot of fun to write.   And one of the several definitions Webster gives for quit is "leave, abandon or vacate.

Jenni,

Wow, you really did read it ~many hugs and kisses here~ And thank you so much for the constructive suggestions, most of which I have to at lease partially agree. I will study each and every one of them and see what I can apply.

I particularly liked your suggestion for stanza 4, line 1. Excellent! And ouch, you caught me in a typo, no more correctly a pure and simple misspelling   you are of course correct about "teeming."

About speaking to the reader, I don't know that I deliberately intended to do that and since it only occurs in two stanzas, you may be right, that it is somewhat distracting from the intended mood. I can see that a little structure change would be needed to change this but it may be worthwhile. Thanks for pointing that out.

On the running blood, yes I agree it is a little melodramatic for the rest of the piece, but it sure seemed like a kewl thing to say at the time.   Yeah, it probably should be changed also.

Well thanks again for your tremendous help on this and for taking the time to read it in such detail.
< !signature-->

P.S. Too bad you're not a Poe fan, but that won't hinder me in any way in liking you.

 Pete


     What terms shall I find sufficiently simple in their sublimity --
     sufficiently sublime in their simplicity --
     for the mere enunciation of my theme?
          Edgar Allan Poe




[This message has been edited by Not A Poet (edited 02-03-2000).]

Craig
Member
since 1999-06-10
Posts 444

6 posted 2000-02-03 04:12 PM



I liked it, I wouldn’t know meter if it jumped up and bit me on the …….but I fell into the Raven rhythm pretty easily. I also fell into the foreboding tone of the original that is hard to shake and feels a little out of place in your piece. One thing that did keep springing to mind was ‘A Dream Within A dream’ a personal favorite of this Poe fan so that can be counted as another bonus I gained from reading this.  


 Yes, I admit your general rule. That every poet is a fool:
But I myself may serve to show it. That every fool is not a poet.


Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA
7 posted 2000-02-04 12:30 PM


Jenni,

I have changed the next to last stanza, the one with the "running blood" thingy, to read thus:

Ah, that sweetest time in passing of our two lives briefly crossing
Makes me wonder how it happened – makes me now my soul outpour.
All those dear words which were spoken truly were a loving token
From a heart which now is broken – dreams in splinters on the floor –
Broken heart whose hopes there lie with gloomy darkness gloating o’er.
      May I see her? Nevermore.

You were right about the original being melodramatic and I guess I always thought that also but just didn't fix it. I really like it much better this way. Thank you so much.

On that other line with the "... sad gloom ... bedroom", I haven't been able to resolve it yet. At first, like I said, I liked your suggestion but it has a problem also. In all the stanzas until the 9th, the first line has a feminine ending. In the 9th, the mood changes and I used masculine endings in 9 and 10 to help emphasize that. A similar thing also occurs in the final stanza. So these ending styles were intended as such and I think I want to retain that. But I will continue to work on it.

Thank you again, you really have been a big help on this.

Craig,

Thank you also for commenting. I'm not sure whether you are saying you were distracted by the "forboding mood" or not. I think most of that is due to "The Raven" rather that the meter, although I can't swear to that, as it does the same for me. It would be interesting to hear the impression of one who has never read "The Raven", as Jim suggested, but I'm not sure where to find such a reader.

BTW, you'r absolutely right about "A Dream Within A Dream" it is a delightful poem.
Thanks.

< !signature-->

 Pete

     What terms shall I find sufficiently simple in their sublimity --
     sufficiently sublime in their simplicity --
     for the mere enunciation of my theme?
          Edgar Allan Poe




[This message has been edited by Not A Poet (edited 02-04-2000).]

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
8 posted 2000-02-04 07:45 PM


Pete,
I think you did a good job here but, like Jenni, am not a big Poe poetry fan. Why? Well, for someone who seemed so concerned about the compactness of a poem, why does he seem to say so many redundant and superfluous things? The answer: he let the rhythm take over the theme. Now, I will never argue that sound is not a component in a poem (can you imagine anyone who would?) but in most of his poems it just comes off a bit too slick, a bit too wordy, for my taste.

Still, I like the Raven a lot better than Annabelle Lee or, arrrgh, The Bells.

From an extremely biased commentator,
Brad

Poertree
Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359
UK
9 posted 2000-02-05 06:13 AM


Well thanks Pete and sorry its taken a while to get to this.  Problem was none of the bookshops locally had anything on Poe at all and I didn't have time to drive to Cambridge or London so instead I had to quickly hurtled round the Net and find some Poe sites, which in the end I did.  I had never read Poe before you see.

Jim was right (again).  I initially read your poem not having read The Raven and it seemed to me just a rather sad piece about a lost love with a nice lilting meter.  Having read Poe's work I have to say it did influence the way I read your poem a little in that, because you had (sucessfully) mirrored his rhyme scheme, meter and form, I got to thinking maybe the story itself should have been similar.  Then on a re-read i thought that actually it isn't dissimilar in that both poems deal with the speaker's lament for a lost love, and i think, on reflection, that that is quite close enough, without creating the "sense of foreboding" that Jim refers to.

Technically I thought you did pretty well.  

I couldn't quite get the line

"In her soulful eyes I see a sweetheart, who most dear to me"

to read "properly", and as it was the opening line of the stanza, that kind of jarred a little

I THINK I read it as:

IN her SOUL ful EYES I SEE a SWEET heart

but i'm still not sure.  All i know is that there appears to be something wrong in the phrase "eyes I see a".

There's just a little of the same problem in the next stanza as well:

"her hand gave me a thrill" just a bit out maybe.

Overall though Pete I though you did a great job, and above all thanks for introducing me to Poe.

I also printed out Annabelle Lee and The Bells ..... shame on you Brad ..  

Philip


[This message has been edited by Poertree (edited 02-05-2000).]

Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA
10 posted 2000-02-05 10:09 AM


Brad,

First, thanks for commenting, even as "an extremely biased commentator." I think Jim mentioned at the top that you are not a Poe fan. I have to agree with you that he tends to be a bit wordy but I guess I like him anyway. And "Annabelle Lee" is a classic example of that, but I like it. I do have to agree with you, also, on "The Bells", which I think he could just as well have avoided.

Philip,

Thank you also. But I am surprised that I had the privelege of introducing you to Poe. But I guess, considering the difference in ages of our societies, it shouldn't be  surprising that we are more likely to study your poets than you ours.

It's good to hear the viewpoint of one not familiar with "The Raven" and good to know that my use of the format does not inherently create that "sense of forboding."

Now if I can adress your comments on those other two lines and try to justify my position. See if this works for you. I read those lines the same way you do. Is this what JB might refer to as a "bastard spondee" or something like that? I won't say that I planned it that way deliberately, but I recognized and liked it like that. First, that is the same point, referred to above, where the mood changes. I think this helps that sense by slightly breaking the rhythm. Second, this is a very hard driving rhythm throughout and a relatively long piece. It tends to get monotonous if there aren't some slight modifications like that. And a spondee foot is easy to slip into a trochaic line as well as pretty easy to read in that situation.

Well, I'm pretty new and strictly a novice at writing poetry so I can't say, with any authority, whether this argument is valid or not. But it seems to me that it just sounds better like this than it would if the strict trochee was maintained throughout.

Thanks so much for your input and if you, or anyone else, can comment or enlighten me on the above paragraph, please do so. I am eager to learn and improve.

< !signature-->

 Pete

     What terms shall I find sufficiently simple in their sublimity --
     sufficiently sublime in their simplicity --
     for the mere enunciation of my theme?
          Edgar Allan Poe




[This message has been edited by Not A Poet (edited 02-05-2000).]

jbouder
Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534
Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash
11 posted 2000-02-05 11:10 AM


Hey guys ... lay off "The Bells"!  There is sound AND story line in that one (besides that, both of my boys like when I read that to them).  Pete, the spondee as a substitute for a trochee ... I vaguely remember reading something about that a few weeks ago when I was reading about sapphics.  You may be right but I don't see any "bastards" in the line in question.  

I agree that Poe can get wordy.  I think the same thing of much of Dylan Thomas too but when it comes to "sound" in poetry I can think of few others better to study than Poe.  Do as Haze says ... study the greats, break their work down to find out what "works" for them, and write your own work.  That you learned from writing this is what is most important anyway, right?

Brad is a closet Poe reader, I suspect, anyway so don't believe everything he says about not being a Poe fan (I bet he's reread "The Bells" sometime in the past few months).  

Later.

Jim

jenni
Member
since 1999-09-11
Posts 478
Washington D.C.
12 posted 2000-02-05 04:13 PM


pete--

i see what you're saying about the line endings, i thought about that, too (you had said earlier that you wanted masculine endings for the first lines of stanzas 9, 10 and 12).  in the end, though, i guess i just don't see that having masculine endings at certain places really does alot for you here; i don't think that particular 'trick' actually contributes much to the mood of the piece.  just my opinion, of course.

it's interesting that you say you were pleased that the use of the raven format did not engender a sense of foreboding; others commented that they did find it here, but, even having read the raven, i agree with philip, i don't see it here at all.  

i like your revision of the blood on the floor part, lol, although i see you still kept the passing/crossing 'rhyme' in that stanza....  oh well.  

jim is right, i think, about the first line of stanza 9 being fine, metrically; i don't find any emphasis on the word "I", and i don't think you have to call it a bastard anything.  the first line of stanza 10 is different; i agree with philip here.  the line reads naturally (to me) as:

JUST the SOFT TOUCH of her HAND GAVE me a THRILL - you'd UNderSTAND

this is perhaps too many of jim's 'acceptable variations' in one line; i don't know, it seems like the line could use a soft touch itself.  

anyway... there's another two cents for ya.

jenni

Poertree
Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359
UK
13 posted 2000-02-06 06:57 AM


Pete

Thanks for the explanation, and btw the explanation for me and lack of Poe is that I'm new to all this, the last literature I looked at was 25 years ago at school until last September.  So I have an awful lot of catchin up to do  .  Which is code for don't take anything I say too seriously.

Back to The Raven -  I checked to see if Poe made any "acceptable variations" in the opening lines of his poem.  To me all his lines are strict trochaic octameter except possibly one:

"Then this ebony bird beguiling my sad fancy into smiling"

Three syllabled Ebony seemed to be the "problem", until I thought that maybe it was pronounced "eb'ny" in the 19th C., so even that line might be "correct".

I agreed with Jenni about the more precise rhyming point, and following on from that it seems to make sense if you are going to emulate a poem like this to try and emulate its strengths.  

One of the great strengths of The Raven for me is its lilting almost sing-song quality (similar to Longfellow's Hiawatha), and this is mainly engendered by strictly preserving the regular meter.  Of course there is always a time to deliberately break "the rules"  (I love breaking rules..lol) I just happen to think that this is not it!!

Sorry to go on about this but it bothers me that Jim and Jenni can't seem to see the problem with the first line of stanza 9 (Brad, Jim, Trevor when ARE we going to get audio?? .. my voice is my best feature LOL).  I really hesitate to contradict Jenni but that line simply doesn’t work metrically when I read it and having looked at it some more i still find it hard to say exactly why.  In actual fact i actually agree with Jenni that the meter is probably strictly correct, but the words that have to be stressed to make it correct are perhaps a bit "weak".  Even more important than that the use of "eye" and "I" next to each other feels clumsy to me, and to make matters worse the two small words "see a" are in what I might call a “critical” part of the line.  In most (sorry ALL) of Poe’s opening lines that part of the line consists of a strong two syllable or three syllable word very often ending in “..ing”.  This is a fairly essential contributor to both the strength of the rhyme (because of the end of line rhyme) and the meter, and to rely on the two small words “see a” to fulfill that function in my opinion demolishes the force of the whole line.  I’ve therefore come to the conclusion that this isn’t so much about meter (which is borderline) as about language choice.  The combination of the two eyes/I followed by the inappropriate “see a” make this line a departure way beyond Jim’s AV’s ..lol.

I agree with Jenni analysis of the first line of the next stanza but strangely enough I feel that if we are talking AV’s again then this does just fall within such acceptability.  In contrast to stanza 9 this line has a better FEEL to it:

JUST the SOFT TOUCH of her HAND GAVE me a THRILL - you'd UNderSTAND

I think this arises because of the balancing effect of the stresses.  However once again it does in my view detract from the lilt of the piece.

When i read the line a few more times though i began to slip into what I would call a quadruplet rhythm, as follows:

JUST the SOFT touch of her HAND gave me a THRILL you’d  un der STAND

Now while this is a fairly rare rhythm it has been used I believe, and quite honestly for me it works quite brilliantly in this line replacing the lilt of the duplet (trochee) with something as good or even better.  Problem is though it’s still a departure and as I said before I’m not sure that this is the place to do it.......

Pete, I have to thank you for making me read this stuff, and both you and Jenni for making me think yet more about meter .......

Philip

Shelley
Member
since 2000-01-27
Posts 263
Ohio, USA
14 posted 2000-02-06 12:12 PM


I enjoyed reading this very much. This is something I could, have and will read again.

I reread it with the change "From a heart which now is broken – dreams in splinters on the floor." I do like it better this way.
Very nice "knockoff" in it's own right.

Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA
15 posted 2000-02-07 09:29 AM


Jim, Jenni and Philip,

I must thank you guys for making me study rhyme and meter, and this poem, more closely. All your comments and suggestions have a great deal of merit. It seems that we about have a consensus that I need to work on a couple of the first lines and maybe some of the internal rhymes. Armed with the enhanced knowledge I have gained from you in this discussion, I think I can do just that. The meter shouldn't be too difficult (as Brad said, Poe and this knock off are somewhat wordy anyway) but the rhymes may be a little harder.

Well, thanks again for all your help.

Shelley, thank you for commenting also. I'm pleased that you liked it.  


 Pete

What terms shall I find sufficiently simple in their sublimity --
sufficiently sublime in their simplicity --
for the mere enunciation of my theme?
Edgar Allan Poe



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