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verona
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verona |
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jenni Member
since 1999-09-11
Posts 478Washington D.C. |
germany was your idea in münchen we learned the important phrases haben sie ein zimmer? and ich hette gerne eine zigaretten, bitte but soon gave up tuesday in heidelberg we played germans practicing der english for our upcoming trip to amerika and did much better though we both tired of the game in the bar two attractive girls joined us our little table now an uneasy party of embarrassed polite glances though you beamed with drunken affability the night wore on and you twisted your chair away when the one leaned in close to me i wasn’t holding out on you i really don’t sprecken any deutsch in the morning thunderstorms and you sulked on the train italy was my idea (at least we both knew the language) we strolled the boboli gardens and had gelati on the steps of the duomo we had seen the botticellis before and the david of course but wasn’t the tenor charming in the starry oltrarno street couldn’t you hear the echo of verona? walking home from the buca you called me an italian name endearing had you whispered it italian is so romantic, no? who was more surprised me when you said it or you that i knew what it meant our last day and the palio in siena the porcupines stormed the crowd an old woman clutching red and white of her victorious giraffa stood crying in her husband’s arms crying for joy that her contrada had won a race, a crazy improbable chaotic two-minute horse race sangue ran the word through the campo and in the crowding pushing yelling singing i fell to my knees on the paving stones and cried too, faint in the tumult cried for how hard it was and how easy it all seemed to be you took pictures of the horses and the blood take me home i sobbed take me home take me home take me home buckled back in our seats with tray tables safely locked in upright position i stole the tattered copy of boccaccio out of my purse and thumbed its pages while you slept in washington we sat staring vacantly out the taxi’s windows silently headed home you as impassive as lincoln looming there watching over the union next year, i thought, next year verona [This message has been edited by jenni (edited 01-17-2000).] |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
I really liked this, jenni. The trials of traveling with your partner ... and so much always expected of the journey, but somehow it never comes to be. Walking home from the Buca sounded good, though, and I'm sure there were other good times as well. Good Luck on the next one. Enjoyed the read. warmhrt [This message has been edited by warmhrt (edited 01-17-2000).] |
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J.L. Humphres Member
since 2000-01-03
Posts 201Alabama |
jenni, You have successfully captured all the nuances,which make travelling abroad with someone special, special. I loved it good read. Looking forward to more. J.L.H. Jason I...I have seen the best minds of my generation... --Allen Ginsberg |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
Jenni I looked at this last night and I haven't been into Passions this morning so I've no idea what other replies have been posted, all I would say is that, in common with most of your poems I've read, I guess this isn't just about a sojourn in Europe! I'm not going to attempt a critique of the technical aspects .. I can safely leave that to Jim .. lol. I just wondered though what the reason was for the lower case throughout the poem was? Am I missing something big? Is it to do with the smallness and greyness of the speaker's present life? It kind of reminds me a little of "The Yellow Wood" and the poem about the evening dinner (remember that line "pressed to the fragile nothingness of goodbye" or something like that .. ~blush~) in that the underlying atmosphere seems to be one of dissatisfaction with the present and a kind of wistfulness for the past. "The Shark Bar" also had a good measure of the dissatisfaction element. In "Verona" it is the wistfulness which dominates - the looking back to past happiness. There is also in Verona the same edge of irritation (rebelliousness even) present in "The Game" (way back), "The Yellow Wood" and "the Shark Bar". Essentially this seems to me to be a railing against the insensitivity and obtuseness of the speaker's sometime partners. This isn't present in the same "in your face" way as in other of your poems but it seems to me to be there nonetheless in passages like "in the morning thunderstorms and you sulked on the train" and "or you that I knew what it meant" and more subtly maybe a slight dig at the easily offended male ego in "you twisted your chair away when the one leaned in close to me I wasn't holding out on you I really don't "speak German"" .... lol. Primarily though I thought that this poem was about a relationship dying through loss of compatibility, loss of any sort of meaningful "connection" between the participants. This theme seems to be present throughout. Right from the start "Germany was your idea" ... Germany the traditionally unromantic and "male" country. The place of beer cellars and that horrible sausage that I can't remember the name of but begins with "br...." and probably ends in "z" .. lol. This is a "hard" place, not the speaker's choice. The futility of the trip comes over in the way in which once fun games have now become rather tired. The "important phrases" even introduces a note of sarcasm. Not a good start to the vacation. Things get worse in the bar when the speaker's companion is unable to communicate with the pretty girls and thereby demonstrate his "maleness" .. lol. His frustration turns to drunkenness but then to irritation when the speaker herself finds she is able strike up an intelligent conversation and he can't compete. The speaker chooses Italy .. in stark contrast to her partner's choice probably the most romantic of places. A beautifully ironic line "AT LEAST we both knew the language". This inference is that these days the couple "never speak the same language" in terms of what is important. The next few lines seems to a mixture of the speaker trying to recreate the longed for past together with an element of "seen it been there got the tee-shirt" ie sameness. The critical final two lines of the stanza are the first overt reference to the lost days of a previous and presumably wonderful stay in Verona .. with a lower case "v". But the attempts at recreating the past are doomed to failure as things go from bad to worse. The edge of sarcasm is back in the line "endearing had you whispered it" .. ohh that male insensitivity .. lol. The loss of "connection" reinforced in the "who was more surprised line" and the implied underestimate of the speaker's intelligence and abilities in the last line of the stanza. The whole next stanza seemed to be a kind of metaphor for the way in which the relationship had proceeded. "A crazy improbable chaotic two minute horse-race" .... no lasting depth .. just passion and lust and, for one of the partners at least, a brief moment of wild (unhealthy) victory. The coldness and insensitivity of the male partner now starts to come to the fore. The chilling lines "you took pictures of the horse and the blood" brings to mind a male looking on unfeelingly while the relationship disintegrates before him. Meanwhile in contrast speaker cries for the pain of the failing relationship ("how hard it is") while looking at her erstwhile love and seeing how apparently "easy it all seems to be". Thus exacerbating the agony. Within the penultimate stanza is a beautiful contrast between the clinical "safety" of the buckles and the upright trays, and the far from clinical reference back to the old times. Now the divisions between the two people are well and truly sealed. The speaker has to "steal" (stole) a glance .. all openness has gone. The copy is "tattered". This is no new copy bought for this current trip .. This is an old and much loved copy from the Verona vacation .. it is of course significant that the speaker has carried it with her in the first place. The final line of the stanza again so deliciously ironic "while you slept" (Jenni .... the Mistress of irony .. lol). And so finally the anti climax of the trip home. "Vacantly" and "staring" setting the tone. The two final touches were wonderful. Lincoln the dour "father" guarding over the "union" holding a mass of diverse ideas and cultures together almost by force of will. Maybe the suggestion is that this cannot be done, no more than the speaker's "union" with her partner could be held together by cold willpower and not love. The last line was masterful, echoing as it does of course the (futile??!!!!!! - not necessarily my opinion btw .. lol) line repeated each year in Jewish homes "Next year in Jerusalem". Jenni ... I loved every word ..... Philip |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Jenni: If Philip's interpretation is anywhere near the mark then there is a depth of meaning and feeling here that was not immediately apparent to me. I suspect this failure on my part was why I did not "get" "The Shark Bar" after my initial read. What contributed to my difficulty in understanding this one were the repeated references to places I've never visited and the use of non-English words at which I often had to venture guesses at meaning. I offer you my blue-collar, American monoglot upbringing as my excuse.  Even with Philip's interpretation I still don't fully understand the reason for the crying toward the end of your poem. I think understanding the "why" of the crying is a key for me in understanding the poem. Beyond that, all I can offer is my praise for your command of language. Thanks for the read and I look forward to some fill-in-the-blanks in this one. Later. Jim P.S. Philip ... I heard that crack about the technical aspects ... ha ha ... |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
I had another look at the "crying" bit .. alerted by my good technical friend Mr B. I guess there could well be the possibility that the speaker is crying at a superficial level at the immediate agony of the failing relationship (the hard), but also "crying" because she can now easily forsee a not too distant time when the relationship will be but a memory. She cries at the very ease with which she knows she will be able to say goodbye to what she once considered an important attachment. Also I thought about "next year Verona", I'm not sure whether you intended this to be another wistful reference to the possibility of a "resurrection" of the old relationship or simply an admission that the old was dead and the future might hold new "possibilities" and a renewed "verona" ?? P |
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Hawk183 Member
since 1999-12-24
Posts 130 |
Jenni, Thank you for the great read!Truly well done... Hawk |
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jenni Member
since 1999-09-11
Posts 478Washington D.C. |
philip-- i hardly know what to say... wow. yes, you "got it" almost perfectly. the poem is, indeed, about the end of relationship, the loss of a connection, and the futile attempts to revive it. i was afraid the piece was too vague or opaque, and i still have some misgivings on that score, but you pegged it. at least it's not a total failure, right? (you were absolutely right with germany and italy, and with lincoln, too, i'm impressed, lol.) one thing, though, on 'verona'... 'verona' to me is more of an ideal, the city of romeo and juliet, i never intended to mean that the speaker had actually been there. there is a certain wistfulness, though, you are right, for the idea of some perfect place of 'remembered' love. this conceit bothered me a little when writing it; i could see someone saying why not just go to verona if that's where you wanted to go in the first place? but 'verona', to me, is not that easily found, even in the actual town of verona. does this make any sense? (and why 'verona' anyway, the reader may fairly ask, when r/j didn't exactly have a happy time there... i know, i know.) anyway, thank you, thank you, thank you for your comments, and the time you obviously devoted to this. i'm not sure it deserved it, lol, but if you enjoyed it, i am one happy writer tonight. jim-- sorry about the foreign phrases, etc. i really didn't think they'd be that great an impediment to the understanding of the piece. munchen is, of course, munich (yeah, them yer-peans got a different word for everything, lol.) the german phrases are "do you have a room?" and "i'd like [to buy] some cigarettes, please". the boboli gardens (and the botticelli paintings and michealangelo's david) are in florence; "oltrarno" is a section of florence "over the arno" river, and is a more artsy, funky side of town than the more-touristed main part of town. the palio... this i was worried that people might not understand... is a festival held twice a year in siena, a medieval city in tuscany. in the main piazza, called "il campo", they hold an absolutely insane horse race that the italians take really, really seriously, lol. siena has i think 24 districts, or contradi, mostly named after different animals; each contrada enters a horse in the race, everything accompanied by a ton of medieval pageantry. they race for a "palio", or banner, the historical significance i will not bore you with, lol. the race itself has virtually no rules; the jockeys whip each other, try to drag other riders off their horses, punch and kick each other, it is unlike any other horse race you will ever see. (this ain't your father's kentucky derby, lol.) there is alot of corruption involved, with secret deals being made to fix the race, double-crosses, etc. the whole thing is absolutely incredible, you have to see it to believe it. the year i was there, the 'giraffe' contrada won, for the first time, i learned, in like 20 years or so; i did see an old woman weeping for joy, holding her red and white 'giraffa' scarf. (i had one too, lol; just lucky.) a huge group of young men, very, very rowdy, from the porcupine contrada (all the different contradi have unique, colorful scarves that their supporters wear), were evidently upset about how the race had gone; they formed a line and charged into the thickest part of the crowd, punching, yelling, kicking everyone in their path, starting a riot. it was absolute, utter chaos, and quite dangerous, very terrifying (to me, anyway). they came upon the supporters of another contrada and fought it out right there in the piazza; in the commotion we soon heard people around us saying "sangue"... "blood" (i saw a guy with blood streaming down his face, his ear nearly ripped off). that the italians could be so passionate over this race really got to me, and that is what formed the heart of the poem here; the speaker in the piece cries because of how hard it was to find such passion in her own life, when it seemed so easy for everyone around her to feel it, in so many different ways, for something as inconsequential, in the big scheme of things, as the sienese palio. and believe me, i did cry in the campo that day. anyway... i still dream of 'verona'. (and, btw, philip, yes, i had in mind 'next year in jerusalem', very nice pick up there). warmhrt and jason, thanks for giving it a read, i truly appreciate it. and hawk? you too, buddy, i'm glad you enjoyed it! like i said, though, i still have misgivings about the piece being too vague. i didn't think alot of background about the palio was necessary here, that the reader could feel the passion without understanding it (much the same as actually being there, lol), and could see the contrast with the speaker's life. i think maybe i tried to do too much with the piece. does anyone have any suggestions how i can do better here? thanks again everyone, jenni [This message has been edited by jenni (edited 01-19-2000).] |
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Wordshaman Member
since 2000-01-17
Posts 110Illinois, USA |
This was a really GREAT piece. I'm not going to bother reading what everyone else read into it...I noted that a couple of the responses were Laestrygonian in size. All I know is that there's a wonderful storyline going on, and my mind filled it in with my own pictures. It's a good sign that people are reading a lot into this piece, also. Shows you kept their attention. Wordshaman |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
Jenni I'm relieved that my ramblings (Brobdingnagian as they were  ) weren't apparently too much the product of a misguided hallucination. As for verona, I did actually consider (he would say that wouldn't he ) the possibility that you were using it as some kind of label for an "ideal" rather than an actual place or event. Certainly that suggestion seemed to fit better with the messages of the remainder of the poem.What brought me down in favour of the actual place were the lines "couldn't you hear the echo" and "tattered copy". The former seemed to suggest very strongly a former real life experience (echo), while in the latter the use of the word tattered imediately suggested long loved and kept pages and not something recently acquired. With that borderline exception though I thought you pitched the obscurity of the piece about right.. or maybe on second thoughts it was too easy if you say I came that close to following it ..lol .Philip |
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Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hello Jenni, Guess I'm a little late getting to this one. I've read the poem several times over several days. At first I didn't care much for it, don't know why, but then I was drawn back to it, again and again and each time it became more and more enjoyable. I'm not going to break out the scalple like I usually do and sift through your words... cause it looks like enough detail critiques have been given, but I will point out a few lines that I liked and didn't like and why. "tuesday in heidelberg we played germans practicing der english for our upcoming trip to amerika and did much better though we both tired of the game" Loved this part, in fact liked most of the first stanza although I didn't really understand what you were saying in German....my guess "Do you know what time it is?" and "can I have a cigarette?"...am I close. "our little table now an uneasy party of embarrassed polite glances though you beamed with drunken affability" Liked this part. Painted a mood that I can relate to. "walking home from the buca you called me an italian name endearing had you whispered it italian is so romantic, no? who was more surprised me when you said it or you that i knew what it meant" Liked this part a lot because it can read a number of different ways and all of them seem to fit the story line. "cried for how hard it was and how easy it all seemed to be you took pictures of the horses and the blood take me home i sobbed take me home take me home take me home" Didn't really like this part through the first couple of reads, but then it kinda grew on me. I think it was the repetition, which now I feel completely suits the poem. "in washington we sat staring vacantly out the taxi’s windows silently headed home you as impassive as lincoln looming there watching over the union next year, i thought, next year verona" Liked the ending, summed it up as next year I travel alone, cause I'm guessing he wouldn't like Verona? Am I correct, maybe I should read the other responses to see if ya already answered such questions, but hey, I'm feeling a little lazy tonight so tough beans "italy was my idea (at least we both knew the language) we strolled the boboli gardens and had gelati on the steps of the duomo we had seen the botticellis before and the david of course but wasn’t the tenor charming in the starry oltrarno street couldn’t you hear the echo of verona?" This whole stanza I didn't really care for too much. Maybe if I had been to these places it would have been different but from where I stand it kinda reads like a travel agent's broucher with no pictures. I think this was the part that originally turned me off on the whole poem. I know the poem really has little to do about the places, but still I can't help but get a little frustrated at hearing of somewhere and being told nothing about it. "our last day and the palio in siena the porcupines stormed the crowd an old woman clutching red and white of her victorious giraffa stood crying in her husband’s arms crying for joy that her contrada had won a race, a crazy improbable chaotic two-minute horse race" Didn't know what to make of the porcupine reference. Also I thought the double use of "crying" and "race" kinda felt overdone. Anyways, that's my thoughts on the poem, I liked it, though it took awhile for the roots to take hold, thanks for the read and take care, Trevor |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Jenni, I thought this was very well done (but for some reason feel it should be shortened). I thought the images worked very well with your theme which I felt rather than thought about (I didn't see half the things Philip saw but that's okay -- the feel was there). Gotta go. More later, Brad |
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