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What Is A Rose
| Critical Analysis #1 |
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What Is A Rose |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Well, here is another sonnet. I said I would stop this for a while but the discussion over the last one was so enlightening that I can't stop just yet. This is a very early one in the series written for "the goddess" after some corrections I have learned her at the CA. (It's not the first though as I don't think that one can be corrected sufficiently.) As I said, this is an early one so I will offer a little help to get you started. The first line must be read as iambic (it may be easier to fall into something else), in fact, it reads best and conveys the intended meaning best if "is" and "from" are somewhat overstressed. Well, here it is, a very early attempt. (With a correction suggested below by Warmhrt.  )What Is A Rose What is a rose? And from what stems its beauty? But how and what can I know of such things? And just why must we feel such virtuous duty When bound to one by vows and little rings? And what, pray tell, you wonder, is a goddess? I've often said you are one, Love. But how? The truth is I don't know, I must confess, I've really never known one ... up to now. You turned away and said you shouldn't kiss me, But then you smiled, turned back and kissed again; We both know from these bounds we can't be free, Though surely they can give a bit ... Just when? But since you are that dream for which I live I'll never ask for more than you can give. < !signature--> Pete [This message has been edited by Not A Poet (edited 01-18-2000).] |
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| © Copyright 2000 Pete Rawlings - All Rights Reserved | |||
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hoot_owl_rn Member Patricius
since 1999-07-05
Posts 10750Glen Hope, PA USA |
Pete...I absolutely love the poem, but again, this one does not adhere to the strict format of a sonnet...you have several lines, I believe 4 in all that do not fall into the 10 syllable, five feet format. With each, there is an extra syllable added onto the end, although the iambic pentameter is intact. I think if you edit these 4 lines just a bit, you have yourself an excellent sonnet!! Just my humble opinion "What IS a ROSE? And FROM what STEMS its BEAUty?" "And JUST why MUST we FEEL such VIRtuOUS duTY" (not sure I have the accents right on this one, but as you see, you have two extra syllables) "And WHAT, pray TELL, you WONder, IS a GODdess?" "You TURNED aWAY and SAID you SHOULDn't KISS me," [This message has been edited by hoot_owl_rn (edited 01-17-2000).] |
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haze Senior Member
since 1999-11-03
Posts 528Bethlehem, PA USA |
Pete...such beauty resides within these folds. Forbidden Love (Oh, the treachery of men.) You do know I am not going to carve a sonnet to splinters only because it is not my forte. (This I save for JB) but I much enjoyed the read...okay, maybe the flu has me a bit sap-happy this am but I found this beautiful. Til Again... ~haze |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Pete: A beautiful love sonnet, Pete. Your improvement is quite obvious. I've noticed that you have began making good use of enjambment. This really improves the poem's "feel" in my opinion. About Ruth's comments: "What IS / a ROSE? / And FROM / what STEMS / its BEAU- / -ty?" I recognize this as a feminine ending (a non-stressed eleventh syllable tacked to the end of a line, common in Shakespeare's sonnets). This, I think, is an acceptible convention by most "traditionalists" whose opinions I have read. Even after your explanation, I want to read this: "What IS / a ROSE? / AND from / WHAT STEMS / its BEAU- / -ty?" Maybe it's just me. "And JUST why MUST we FEEL such VIRtuOUS duTY" [Ruth wrote: (not sure I have the accents right on this one, but as you see, you have two extra syllables)]" I would break it down like this: "And JUST / why MUST / we FEEL / such VIRT- / -uous DU- / -ty" Again, some disagree on this, but I think "virtuous" is one of those "bastard trochees" I mentioned in "Best Friends or Lovers" (also by your pen). The feminine ending is consistent with "beauty". This is good. "And WHAT / pray TELL / you WON- / -der IS / a GOD- / -dess?" The only thing I don't like about the feminine ending here is that it is not present in: "The TRUTH / is I / don't KNOW / i MUST / con - FESS" I don't know what convention says about this but you can be sure that obsessive Jim will know by the day's end.  "You TURNED / a - WAY / and SAID / you SHOULD- / -n't KISS / me" I have the same question about this feminine ending as I have with the previous one. I am really enjoying these, Pete, and I hope you keep them coming. The "goddess" is becoming a "creature" reminiscent of Beethoven's Immortal Beloved. Thanks for the read, my friend. P.S. This "JB's forte is sonnets thing" should end so as not to mislead anyone into thinking I am an expert on the subject. It is merely an interest. I'm learning with the rest of you and am simply happy to share what I've learned along the way. K? < !signature--> Jim "If I rest, I rust." - Martin Luther [This message has been edited by jbouder (edited 01-17-2000).] |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Thanks Ruth, Haze and Jim. I hold all of your opinions with the very highest regard. To recieve compliments from you makes my day and makes me want to work harder and strive for better things. As I said, this is about my second or third sonnet, although updated, and I knew the meter at the beginning might be less than obvious. I even wanted to read it as dactylic at first. Hence the hint. Thanks Ruth. I know it's not perfect iambic pentameter but it is predominantly, I think. Haze, I hope you get over that flu soon  and I also hope that any associated sap-happiness is not the only reason you liked my poem. (Treachery indeed  she says)Now for virtuous, Jim's interpretation is what I intended and it seemed easy enough to me to read it that way. I hope it is acceptable as it says exactly what I meant. And Jim, about those two feminine ending lines which are not matched by their respective rhyming lines. I did recognize that before posting but I just couldn't figure out how to change them to avoid that without changing the whole poem. Also, I wasn't sure whether that was good, bad or indifferent. But I did find it more pleasing when the other two feminine lines were balanced. Thanks to all for responding. Pete |
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John Foulstone Member
since 2000-01-01
Posts 100Australia |
Ted, I enjoyed the feel and the message here. Probably weakest in the opening three lines, which sounded a little forced. The rest read with a much more natural rhythm. Well done. |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Pete, I just finished answering one of your replies to my work in which you expressed a wish to be able to use beautiful words to convey feeling or image. What are you talking about? Meter, rhyme, or any other the technicality of this piece does not matter. It is a truly beautiful, heart-rending piece of work. Exquisite! The only word I don't care for is "Dear". That's a word you would use to address even strangers in a letter ... Love or something comparable would be better, I think .... but that's just my personal preference. This is really good, Pete, and you surely can use words the way a poet should! Again, I loved it! warmhrt |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Dear Warmhrt, Thank you so much for your response. I'm really pleased that you liked it but you are too kind and generous. And, you are absolutely right about the "Dear". In fact, I think I'll edit it and correct that right now. (It looks like the forum is working, at least for me, Brad. )As the introduction said, this was an early sonnet which I corrected with some of the new knowledge I have gained here at the CA. That line's wording was altered a little and then dear was put in to make the meter come out right. The original was I've told you before that you are one, but how? I guess I did so without giving it as much thought as it deserved. And Jim, don't even try to make that line iambic. No amount of bastard trochaics or whatevers can help in that regard.  To address your remark about use of words, maybe by participating in Skyfyre's workshop I will learn to use more "poetic" words, like you and so many of the others here do. It seems that most of my efforts are made up of more common or every day words. I mean, I think I usually get my point across but maybe make it a little too easy for the readers. Perhaps if they had to think a bit more, it might be more interesting. But I don't seem to know how to do that. I am determined to learn, however. Thanks so much. < !signature--> Pete [This message has been edited by Not A Poet (edited 01-18-2000).] |
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Vincent Spaulding Member
since 2000-01-16
Posts 59 |
A beautiful love sonnet. It captures well the facination so easily one assigns to the other woman. Wives are never goddesses. |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Pete: You'll get no arguments from me on that one, Pete. Perhaps: "A deity you are, my Love, but how?" This, I think, would make the line iambic. The "I've often said" part, I think, could be left out if you just SAY she's a goddess. If she wonders what a "goddess" is then it follows that you have called her one atleast once in the past. Do you see what I'm getting at? Also, the placement of the "but how?" question, as it is now written, makes it seem as though you are asking how you could "say" she is a goddess rather than (what I think you meant)why she "is" a goddess to you. That is why I phrased my suggested change the way I did. Am I wrong here? Just a suggestion, my good poet. I really like this one. Jim "If I rest, I rust." - Martin Luther |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Thank you Vincent. But I think what you really meant to say was: Wives mostly are goddesses but we of simple minds don't know the words or have the ability to tell them so. This has been my experience. But I think this is fully compatible with your shorter version of the statement, really. Jim, after reading your suggestion several times and inserting it, I'm beginning to like it. It's difficult to remove that line for historical reasons. Early in our relationship, she jokingly confessed why she was attracted to me. I answered that I was attracted to her because she was a goddess. She asked "What's a goddess"? To which my answer was "I don't know, I've never known one before now." Well, I'm not much with words and I thought that was one of the best things I had said so it made its way into a poem. But your line does fit much better so if alright with you, I think I might now be able to change it. BTW, I watched a brief history of WWII in the Pacific last night on the History Channel. It fit right in with your kamikaze. It also pointed out that the kamikaze killed 5,000 American sailors and sank (I believe) 38 ships. So now we have returned to reality and I am quickly losing any sympathy for those guys. Thanks to both of you for your suggestions. Pete What terms shall I find sufficiently simple in their sublimity -- sufficiently sublime in their simplicity -- for the mere enunciation of my theme? Edgar Allan Poe |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Pete: I only ask that you don't forget the thousands of civilians killed in Hiroshima, Nagasaki (the A-Bombs) and during the fire bombings of Tokyo. War is universally horrifying, nomatter what "side" you're on. Just a thought. Jim P.S. I love your new "Poe" quote, btw. [This message has been edited by jbouder (edited 01-21-2000).] |
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Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Jim, you're absolutely right about war. I didn't mean to sound like a redneck or anything. The older (more mature) I get, I find myself becoming more of a pacifist, although that has not always been my credo. There is an argument, however, that many more civilians would have been killed had we finished the war by invading Japan rather than dropping the bombs. What little I know (believe actually as I am not really a student of it) of Japanese culture of that era, suggests there is some validity to that argument. In either case, though, your statement cannot be argued against. War is truly horrifying. Perhaps someday, if we survive long enough, humanity will prevail and humankind will become humane. Pete What terms shall I find sufficiently simple in their sublimity -- sufficiently sublime in their simplicity -- for the mere enunciation of my theme? Edgar Allan Poe |
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jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Pete: We're in agreement here, I'm sure. Sorry if I came across as a butt-head (I do that sometimes). So, when do we get to read your next tribute to your goddess? Jim "If I rest, I rust." - Martin Luther |
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hoot_owl_rn Member Patricius
since 1999-07-05
Posts 10750Glen Hope, PA USA |
I'm glad Jim enlightened me on the feminine ending in this one...see as I said, my knowledge of poetry remains limited. Again, I like the poem, it's enjoyably romantic |
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