»
Archives
»
Critical Analysis #1
»
Tonya (do you people hate me? post replys!)
| Critical Analysis #1 |
|
Tonya (do you people hate me? post replys!) |
|
|
cougaryouth Junior Member
since 2000-01-10
Posts 25 |
Early I came I heard her name Shes my sisters freind but its all the same and then I see her she is the most beautiful but she was out of my reach I was only a sixth grader but I wasnt sure She has a boyfreind my heart sinks his name is Matt he seems nice but it still stinks we went to camp I watched them flirt Matt is so lucky the bus is a little sucky we cant get over this ramp! we go on a mission trip she calls me cute we get to know each other I room with Matt and Brad Brad gives his boxers the slip! We are all freinds now they come over to swim I flirt with her alot in a swimsuit she is hot Matt doesnt mind he is trusting and how she is moving away to a different state I feel a chapter closing her last day arrives but I still keep my feelings hid today I get the internet and she has it too! we connect on it our freindship is set we could tell each other anything I bet [This message has been edited by cougaryouth (edited 01-13-2000).] |
||
| © Copyright 2000 cougaryouth - All Rights Reserved | |||
|
Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
You have to comment on other poems in this forum before you'll be commented on. So, how many other poems in this forum have you actually commented on? Brad |
||
|
haze Senior Member
since 1999-11-03
Posts 528Bethlehem, PA USA |
cougar...No One hates you. I don't know what to say about this poem. This is Critical Analysis. Poems (not poets) are subject to (what I call The Slice&Dice). Are you ready for that? Have you read many posts here? Do you see what happens? If someone critiques your poem, you take or leave the advice as you see fit. Its not a personal rap. Its a learning & growing experience for everyone. Are you ready to have your heart-poem (POSSIBLY) carved to the quick? Have a quick read on some of my work. Read other's works here as well. I will be back tomorrow. One word (yes or no) and I will help you with this. Til Again, ~haze "I shall leave nothing before matchsticks." |
||
|
roxane Senior Member
since 1999-09-02
Posts 505us |
here you go. [This message has been edited by roxane (edited 01-14-2000).] |
||
|
warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
My suggestion, young cougar, is to go to your library, and check out all of the books on poetry, and of poetry that you can get. Then read, read, read ... and then try your hand at writing again. I can guarantee you'll see an amazing improvement. warmhrt |
||
|
Kevin Taylor Member
since 1999-12-23
Posts 185near Vancouver, BC, Canada |
deleted by my hand KT [This message has been edited by kevintaylor (edited 01-14-2000).] |
||
|
poetry_kills Senior Member
since 1999-12-04
Posts 549new orleans |
though i try to appreciate all artists and their art forms, this poem reads like a b-side Beastie Boys song... i'll leave it at that... sincerely, **jerome the boy with no brain |
||
Saxoness
since 1999-07-18
Posts 1102Texas |
I am appalled with these replies, my friends. I will not be in the least surprised if cougaryouth decides to leave and not return to this forum. Let me remind all of you, since you seem to need reminding, that this is not "voice my personal opinion" forum on whether or not he is a good poet. Your job, is to supply helpful hints and tips to a poet who was brave enough to allow us the privledge to critique something personal; his poetry. Roxanne, being "brutally honest" as you put it does not give you the right to be rude. I suggest that the next time you critique a poem, you refrain from telling the poet his work is "really bad" and "without integrity" and focus on the poems form, in a polite manner. KevinTaylor, the same goes for you. Cougaryouth is new to the forum, as you can obviously see in his member status. Therefore, he has not yet become sensitive to our unspoken rules...he felt that he was not getting replies..which he wasn't, and so he spoke out about it. However tacky it was to put that in his title, it was ten times tackier of you to call him a "troll" I suggest your learn some manners. poetry_kills, if you have nothing constructive to say to a poem, then in the future don't waste your time replying to it. I think you guys need some major attitude adjustments, since when did you all become perfect writers? Oh, wait, you haven't. And I garantee that if someone had replied to your work as you have to this one, you would be quite offended. This is not even my piece, and I feel sorry for cougaryouth when he reads this stuff. I think some editing is needed. "Glory remains unaware of my neglected dwelling where alone I sing my tearful song which has charms only for me." -Charles Brugnot |
||
|
jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Ouch, folks! Constructive, constructive, constructive! Not destructive! The purpose here is to help people become better writers, not discourage them from ever writing again. I realize that I have no authority here but I think common courtesy "Moderates" all of us. I think some of what was written was disgusting. I have to agree with Saxoness here. I think some apologies are in order. Cougary is a new member and (always giving the benefit of the doubt) probably wasn't aware of the "commenting on other's poetry courtesy" that exists here. Cougary: I read this through and, sure, there is room for improvement. But you have not failed in expressing some of feelings of the character in the poem. I think warmhrt's advise is very sound. If you want to improve your writing I think it is best to read as much as you can. I don't even think it matters "what" you read so much as it matters "that" you read. I would accept Haze's offer if I were you. Free-verse is her forte and she is certainly someone you can learn from. I do want to offer an apology in behalf of the others for their rudeness. I wasn't asked to do so but I truly am sorry you had to be subjected to some of this. Keep posting your work in here. Read the poetry others post and post replies to their poems. This, too, will help your poems improve. Thanks for the read, by the way. P.S. I liked the "In a swimsuit she is hot part".  < !signature--> Jim "If I rest, I rust." - Martin Luther [This message has been edited by jbouder (edited 01-14-2000).] |
||
|
simplyYRREHS Member
since 2000-01-03
Posts 162 |
COUGAR...please don't be discouraged from continuing with your writing. It is truly an art form and productive way to express your feelings and thoughts. You may wish to post future poems in an open forum initially, until you have perfected your writings to your satisfaction. That is, after all, the bottom line...YOUR satisfactions with YOUR work! I look forward to reading more from you. Happy Writing!  Sherry[This message has been edited by simplyYRREHS (edited 01-16-2000).] |
||
|
doreen peri Member Elite
since 1999-05-25
Posts 3812Virginia |
Hello cougaryouth and hi to all at CA! Don't hang out here much anymore, but I have a few things to say about this post and the replies. First, to cougaryouth- It is WONDERFUL to meet you and to see such raw and expressive emotions coming forth! That, my friend, is the essence of poetry.... to express your feelings about something, to paint a picture of it.... to the point that others can see through your eyes and feel what you feel. It is a very "human" experience, poetry. Angela tells me you have just recently struck an interest in poetry and writing. Well, welcome welcome welcome, to a love of an art which will grab you by the throat and not let you go and give you pleasure, help you feel and release pain, join you with the rest of humanity. It is such a terrific thing to learn of yet one more person coming to the world of poetry! Oh, and I also might suggest posting in the Teen forum where you will be able to read and get responses from others who have just found this new interest and grow with them. Again, welcome! And KEEP WRITING! You clearly have the spirit for it! To Brad and could you pass this along to Ron- It is my observation that several responses here were a bit bold, but indeed, this is the nature of Critical Analysis forum, isn't it? The problem with a couple of the responses is that people clearly did not take into consideration that cougaryouth is a new poet and did not give him the support and 'positive' teaching remarks he was looking for. How can we control responses? Well, we can't! But I have a few suggestions for the CA forum. - Instead of having a separate page to go to, to access rules of posting, have those rules and nature of the forum available and visible at the top of the first page of the forum. - Within the rules, encourage people to respond to others, letting them know that when they do, they will most likely receive more responses -Also, Brad, at that "other place" where you and I go, it says, (paraphrased) "This forum is for critique of polished works. Sometimes those who critique can be bold in their replies. Do not post your work here unless you can take harsh criticism". Anyway, I think something like made visible at the top of the page would be a good idea. Also, maybe a note that most people who post at CA are not "new" to poetry. That's all. Thanks for hearing me out! Take care, all! doreen |
||
|
Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
I read the poem and comments this morning before all you lie-a-bed Yanks were up and writing .. and more important before Saxoness posted ..I have to say that the only element that I thought was way out of line with the CA rules was "the Troll" comment which seemed so obviously a dig at the poet rather than the poem. I guess also that brief negative comments which don't explain why the negative comments are being made are not helpful and not really in the spirit espoused so eloquently by Jim. I'd just like to say though that, while hard hitting and blunt, Roxane's comments are certainly aimed at the writing .. I can't agree that she in any way "belittles" the writer, and she was the first to really take the time to look at the poem seriously. Too right I would have been upset if someone made comments like that about my poems, but then this is a place where you can expect to be upset. The upside is that when you do get positive feedback you know that you have written something really worthwhile. Finally I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH DOREEN'S POINT ABOUT THE RULES BRAD .... I mailed you sometime ago asking where the rules were and you didn't reply .. so I searched and searched for about 2 weeks and finally found them buried via an insignificant little icon somewhere or other. Really not good enough in a forum where the rules are important in avoiding damaging misunderstandings. Doreen is absolutely right in everything she says .. PLEASE try and do something ... Philip |
||
|
Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hello there, First off Brad's right about posting critiques on other people's work first. All ya got to do is post "I love your poem" on everyone's work and they'll probably do the same for you....works for most people here. Secondly, don't listen to these insults by the tits (but listen to good advice when given). The majority of poems written by everyone here (myself included) are not all that great, that's why were here and not lecturing at Harvard or busy with a publisher....cause we all want to improve our skills and help others do the same (well in theory that's why most of us are here). I agree with Phillip that most of the comments weren't out of line (only the Troll and Beastie BOys in my opinion), and although a lot of them came off a little prententious and tactless, some of them were actually there to help. Haze and warmhrt made a good suggestion about reading other people's work, both professional writers and novice hacks like the ones found here. It's a good way to get an influx of new ideas and what readers like (and wanting to entertain and inform (perhaps even learn)seems to be the goal of everyone here....otherwise we wouldn't bother to share). Now I will offer up my critique, "Early I came I heard her name Shes my sisters freind but its all the same" Ya gotta remember that it's important to really "grab" the reader as quickly as possible. A good way to do this is by originality, say what you mean in a way they have never heard before. "and then I see her she is the most beautiful but she was out of my reach I was only a sixth grader but I wasnt sure" Try to elaborate on ideas and themes, for example, "the most beautiful" is not very descriptive. Try using analogies, similies and other comparative techniques, ie., "She was as beautiful as a setting sun after a dozen Margueritas"...don't actually ever use that example or similar ones but think of your own personal way to describe her beauty. Also try to avoid cliched descriptive phrases, unlike what I did in my example. "She has a boyfreind my heart sinks his name is Matt he seems nice but it still stinks" Try to elaborate on this, perhaps tell us how this makes you feel (other than it just "stinks"). "we went to camp I watched them flirt Matt is so lucky the bus is a little sucky we cant get over this ramp!" I'm going to have to agree with what has been said about the "bus" line, it is unnecessary. Try to avoid adding lines that have nothing to do with the theme, it just confuses things. "we go on a mission trip she calls me cute we get to know each other I room with Matt and Brad Brad gives his boxers the slip!" Perhaps eliminate the last two lines here and expand on how you felt when she called you "cute". "We are all freinds now they come over to swim I flirt with her alot in a swimsuit she is hot Matt doesnt mind he is trusting and how" "i" before "e" except after "c"....friends. Perhaps consider expanding on the "flirt" part more, state your hidden feelings about her more and the reword and expand on the fact that Matt doesn't know that you really like his girlfriend. "she is moving away to a different state I feel a chapter closing her last day arrives but I still keep my feelings hid today" Thought this was the best stanza of the poem. "I get the internet and she has it too! we connect on it our freindship is set we could tell each other anything I bet" Perhaps state without use of how, that you still keep in touch and expand on the idea of being able to openly talk to her about anything except the fact that you have a lot of feelings for her....or that you feel you could tell her anything even how you feel about her. Anyways, don't worry about putting out a masterpeice so young in your writing career (we all start out at the bottom...its called a learning process). Concentrate on improving your skills so that one day you can make all those who called you a Troll or a hack-rap writer eat mud. Don't give up, it's great to see someone trying to express themselves through poetry...but that could just be me trying to help recruit new blood into a dying form. Also don't worry about others putting down your work....artists (or those in dire ego driven needs to be recognized as one) sometimes carrying around a lot of perfume so their sh** doesn't stink and they tend to forget that they too had to go through the growing pains of the learning process. Basically what I'm trying to say is that a poem just like the one you've written, has also been written by everyone here at one point in there poetic life (and some even continue to do so and don't realize it). So brush off the dirt, wipe off the blood and pick yourself up, please continue to write, personally I really enjoy watching new talent grow, their experiments with style and when they eventually write a really great poem....it's often more enjoyable then reading the same formated writings of the same formated people everyday (myself included). Anyways, thanks for the read, keep plugging away (there's enough quitters in this world already) and I hope to read another poem of yours in the future, take care, Trevor |
||
|
jenni Member
since 1999-09-11
Posts 478Washington D.C. |
since when are there "rules" for posting anything here? some time ago i recall brad suggesting that if you post a poem out here, you should comment on 2 others. if someone comments on yours, you should comment on one of his or hers. common courtesy, common sense. i didn't think it was a "rule", though. *sigh* more rules. |
||
|
hoot_owl_rn Member Patricius
since 1999-07-05
Posts 10750Glen Hope, PA USA |
I deleted my own comments on this. I was as I said directed to this posting by several other members. From now on, I will stay out of this. [This message has been edited by hoot_owl_rn (edited 01-15-2000).] |
||
|
Kevin Taylor Member
since 1999-12-23
Posts 185near Vancouver, BC, Canada |
Hang on to your shorts folks. The poem is in this forum for a reason and is not a first post. The statement that I was rude because I called him a troll was simply a misreading. I said, "Well I know a troll when I see one. The "do you people hate me? post replys!" is a giveaway." and the word "troll" is a very well known and used term in newsgroups and on other forums. It means, troll, as in fishing expedition, troll as in a post that is designed to engender a lot of response back and forth. IT REFERS TO THE POST AND NOT THE POET. I do not and did not crit the writer. And since my e-mail address is usually with my posts I would consider it a favor if someone who sees what they think is a gross error on my part would e-mail me back chanel and check it out before I wake up and find myself in pillories. Just a request. Whatever the case, this poet has posted several poems previously and has had only responses and praise for his/her work. The rest of my post, I thought was playful and good advice. Hard won over decades. So be it. The content of that post will be edited/deleted. And I shall do my due diligence in future.< !signature--> Kevin [This message has been edited by kevintaylor (edited 01-14-2000).] |
||
|
roxane Senior Member
since 1999-09-02
Posts 505us |
i don't think that i "attacked" cougaryouth in any way. i didn't like the poem, and i told him why. if that was harsh, i'm sorry. it also bothers me that while i was the first person to actually read and review the poem, i'm getting called "brutual". the honesty was, but not me. i think it's worse to be ignored in a forum where we may supposedly expect to receive real opinions. the name of this forum clearly shows that. and yes i remember what it was like to be new, and the first poem i ever posted still has no replies. i never claimed to be some great writer, and even more so, i don't think that my opinions will create a great writer, and i am deeply, deeply offended by that remark. is it easier to crusade for someone and tell them how they didn't deserve what comments they got than to actually try to give advice? so, i am going to email, cougaryouth, which is something that all of you would have done if it were really important, and apologize if i was too harsh on his poems. i'm not trying to sound immature, but it disturbs me that confrontations get more attention than poems. as for my post, i'll delete it, and i don't know if cougaryouth will return to passions, but i don't know if i will either. |
||
|
Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Wait, stop this right now! I know I'm somwhat of a newcomer here but just felt like I had to add my bit. Yes I read those original posts and, YES, they were probably too harsh. And no, I didn't particularly like the poem but chose to keep my opinion to myself. That's not to say that this is always the best or proper course in CA but it was my choice. I have just read the responses to some of those "critiques" and some of them were too harsh. Are we now attacking the attackers? As I said, I am pretty new and I have made a mistake or two, for which I have been corrected or advised. But I have found everyone here to be overall friendly and helpful. OK, we make mistakes and sometimes say the wrong things. But now it's time to all just kiss and make up and get back to the intended business of writing, critiquing and learning about poetry. And Roxane, please don't leave. I have enjoyed your advice too much and learned too much from it to not have the advantage of it in the future. And Cougaryouth, I hope you will stay with us also. As others have suggested, you might want to post in Open or Teen for a while and read more stuff in here to see what goes and what is accepted. Well, Thanks all for letting me have my say. Pete |
||
|
Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
Now I have to admit that, while this is all getting somewhat heated it’s had the wonderful effect of jarring me out of hibernation. Re-reading the posts I can’t help but feel that I'm one step closer to understanding how wars start. FIRST we have the provocative action (meant benignly), and lets face it, ignoring the subsequent to-ing and fro-ing and the fact that the poem appears to be an early post, this poem was always going to attract some negative comment in Critical .. and the bit in the Title certainly didn’t help in that respect. SECOND we have the reaction to the initial provocation. I guess there is no point in a detailed analysis but having looked again, and read Ruth’s post, I think maybe she has a point about your post Brad and also yours p-k. I believe now I did Kevin an injustice this morning in singling out his “Troll” comment. I considered only the noun which certainly gave the comment a personal slant .. there is however the verb “troll” - “to fish by trolling”. Not commonly used in the UK but nevertheless it does put the post in a slightly different light. Having said that, while it undoubtedly takes away the sting, I still think that the remark can hardly be said to have been aimed at the poem, after all its not the poem that was purportedly trawling for replies it was supposedly the poet. Still not so good Kevin. As for the rest I stick by what I said this morning and mainly that Haze was positively constructive and Roxane simply making a hard critique of the poem. THIRD we have the reaction to the reaction, and now things start to get out of control! Essentially I think that the defenders riding to the rescue of the original “provocateur” were at least as guilty of over-reaction as the initial responders - words such as “appalled”, “disgusting” and “belittling”, to cite but a few, are hardly conducive to turning down the heat and effecting a healing. (Ha Ha .. and while I’ve been writing this I note that Pete has just posted exactly the same sentiment). Of all the responses to the responses Doreen’s stood out for me as a beacon of restraint and commonsense. Firstly some encouragement to the mauled poet and then, rather than an attack on the responders, a sensible suggestion for trying to avoid the same scenario happening all over again. FOURTH we now start to see the reaction of the original responders to the defenders’ criticisms and battle is well and truly engaged when one of the best poets on the site feels compelled to say that she might leave. As Pete has said, things are out of hand. We need to back track to Doreen’s post and not get matters out of proportion ..... Jenni’s comment says it all “What rules ???? !!” Well I believe they are guidelines more than rules, but haven’t you found them yet Jenni? As for whether they are necessary, believe me they are. I hate “rules”, but if you’ve ever been to an unmoderated newsgroup and tried to have the sort of discussions that go on here ... forget it....... this forum is only one of the best on the net because there ARE guidelines and wonderful moderators to enforce them .. And yes ... even moderators are human ....... ~smiling fondly at Ruth and Brad, and in fact at everyone~ Guess this whole thing has brought me back to life again ..... so it may not have been a total waste of time Roxane ...... ...........Take care all of you ........ Philip |
||
|
J.L. Humphres Member
since 2000-01-03
Posts 201Alabama |
Okay folks this whole thing is just ridiculous. For one thing the suggestion about posting replies is somewhere on the register page.I read it when I registered if cougaryouth didn't,fine I'm sure he knows now. However I think we all need to go back and read some of our own first poems (not posts) and see if they're really any better. Enough of that. Cougaryouth, this poem comes across as rather simple; however, it is about a sixth-grade infatuation. Your vocabulary could use some work I've noticed,it'll come with time. Warmhrt gave the best advice, and this is true to all writers,read,read,read. Also keep writing, it's the only way to improve. When you post here it is known you want to be read and commented on, well my friend you have been. The note was a little too much, but so were some of the comments. Keep writing you will most definately hone your skills with time. J.L.H. P.S. If you need some suggestion on some reading I would take a look at "Howl" by Allen Ginsberg, I think you'll find it to be a great help in free-verse technique. Also if you want to see how to make simple language eloquent pick up some Hemingway. J. Jason I...I have seen the best minds of my generation... --Allen Ginsberg |
||
|
Kevin Taylor Member
since 1999-12-23
Posts 185near Vancouver, BC, Canada |
TROLL: as defined at Internet Dictionary at http://whatis.com/troll.htm As used on the Internet: 1) As a verb, the practice of trying to lure other Internet users into sending responses to carefully-designed incorrect statements or similar "bait." The statement / question "you all hate me" is exactly that... if it was a cry from a child it would be instantly recognized as a plea for someone to deny it and state their undying love. Troll. The error is in offending with the truth. I looked up the profile of cougar and did not see an age. Is it then not a dangerous thing to say "post in the teens section" or to assume that cougar is a teen? Seems like a backhanded way of saying that both the verse and the writer is immature. Cougar may indeed be young. Age, in my experience has never been a better guarantee of good poetry than youth. Age has nothing to do with it... although there are those who would argue that point... it is only experience that creates growth. Now, apparently I have been too harsh... but I think that the more correct indictment would be that I was too direct. Apparently the strength in my verse is my weakness in prose. Read this string with an unimpassioned eye cougar. Few others have. Kevin |
||
|
Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Kevin: Sorry for the misinterpretation of your use of the word "Troll". |
||
|
SnglDad Member
since 2000-01-08
Posts 115Seattle area |
Wow, I think that everyone needs to take a break and write a poem,sonnet or something. So all I have to do to get some input on my poem`s is, post some rude replies on other people`s work? Sheesh that`ll be easy Keep up the good work. [This message has been edited by SnglDad (edited 01-14-2000).] |
||
|
poetry_kills Senior Member
since 1999-12-04
Posts 549new orleans |
cougaryouth & all others: i apologize for what came off as a rude response to this poem... i wrote it late at night and rereading it now, i realize that it sounded far more offensive than i ever intended it to be, and for that i am sincerely remorseful... however, i have to be honest in that i really dont like this poem... the rhyme is forced and seems in some places to be rhyme for rhyme's sake, the pattern is extremely irregular (which is not a problem in free-verse, but i feel that the combination of rhyme and free-verse detracts from the rhythm of the work -- which is really what poetry is based on)... i think a few metaphors and a few more explications of the feelings expressed in "stinks" and the "friendship" seen at the end of the work could go a long way towards improving this poem... i hope no one bears me any ill-will, nor do i bear any to any of you... cougaryouth: don't let anyone's comments (especially mine) discourage you from writing... just take what you can and apply what you think will help you and leave the rest behind... hopefully we'll all become better writers through doing those things... sincerely, **jerome the boy with no brain [This message has been edited by poetry_kills (edited 01-14-2000).] |
||
|
doreen peri Member Elite
since 1999-05-25
Posts 3812Virginia |
kevin- I recommended that cougaryouth post in the Teen Forum because I knew he was a teen. His sister, Angela (saxoness) told me. I wouldn't have suggested that without prior knowledge of age... just to let you know... no reference to immaturity at all. Thanks. -dp |
||
|
hoot_owl_rn Member Patricius
since 1999-07-05
Posts 10750Glen Hope, PA USA |
I appologize pubicly to anyone whom I may have unintentionally insulted with my reply yesterday. As of today, I have resigned as moderator for Critical Analysis. Thank you all, you've been a nice group of poets to work with. Hugs Ruth |
||
|
Songbird Member Elite
since 1999-12-15
Posts 2184Missouri |
I am really sorry to see you leave your position here Hoot Owl, I hope you will reconsider. It would be so nice if everyone could just shake hands, and learn from their little mistakes and go on. I enjoy reading everyone of you all's poetry. When it's a piece that I can really relate to, I comment, if it is not my cup of tea, I leave that to others, but I learn from whatever a person writes, good or bad. I can understand it you just need a break, but I hope you'll be back. |
||
|
Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Ruth, Ialso sincerely hope you will reconsider and stay on as moderator. You are doing a wonderful job. Thanks. Pete |
||
|
|
⇧ top of page ⇧ |
|
| All times are ET (US). All dates are in Year-Month-Day format. | ||
