»
Archives
»
Critical Analysis #1
»
Sunset
| Critical Analysis #1 |
|
Sunset |
|
|
jenni Member
since 1999-09-11
Posts 478Washington D.C. |
The fragrant rose, the dusky orange glint of sunset off the water, The candle’s yellow glow upon our little table, All tried vainly to recall the lush green summer of our love, When, in noontime’s bright sun, We dreamt beneath a bold blue sky. The violets we picked one morning in the rain, I placed in the volume of Shelley you gave me; But even so had our love been crushed between unwitting words, Pressed to the fragile thinness of goodbye. We both knew, after the bill was settled, And the wine had lost its flush, That the pleas and sighs to turn back time were, Like all the rest, But the sweet lulling lies of indigo night. |
||
| © Copyright 1999 jenni - All Rights Reserved | |||
|
roxane Senior Member
since 1999-09-02
Posts 505us |
i really like this poem and the wonderful phrases you use in it. they are so sagacious that they seem almost to be old adages. this poem is truly beautiful, i couldn't offer a word of advice. |
||
|
Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
Jenni, I really liked the atmosphere you created in this poem. Yes, a dying love, but a gentle soft and slow death - even the lies are "sweet" and "lulling". (Oh that all sunsets could be as calm). The whole poem speaks to me not of a love destroyed violently by bitterness and pettiness, but one where the words were "unwitting", not deliberately hurtful; and the dissolution one of a gradual growing apart, a slow waning. The slow dip of the late evening sun towards the horizon. Right from the start the first two lines set the pace and atmosphere. Quiet dusk - the word "little" cleverly introduces the intimacy (liked that touch a lot). I think "lush green" and "bold blue" are maybe a bit obvious but perhaps that doesn't matter. You use the past tense "tried" in line three. This then suggests that the writer is looking back on the whole event after a space of time. This may well be what you intended, but I just wondered whether the overall poem might be marginally more immediate and effective if the reader was led to suppose that the intimate final dinner was actually taking place there and then. This could be achieved by simply changing the word "tried" to "try". The four lines from "The violets ........... goodbye." I found especially moving and effective. I like the way you continue the gentle love theme by the references to violets and Shelley, at the same time giving a hint of what is to come maybe by introducing rain, which by the way has a certain clever resonance with the earlier use of the word "vainly". I wasn't sure whether the word "we" was really necessary in "The violets we ...". You have by that time firmly established the duality theme and I thought maybe the line might flow a little better as "The violets picked one morning in the rain". The wonderful imagery of love being crushed as a flower is crushed to fragile thinness was for me the best part of the poem, made better because of the irony that the inanimate printed matter doing the crushing just happened to be some of the most beautiful love poetry ever written, and in the same unwitting manner the lovers crush their own real love. Excellent I thought. Just one small comment. Although the line "Pressed to the fragile thinness of goodbye" has a beautiful feel to it I wonder slightly about the logic. You might say that goodbye is goodbye ie the end .... ie beyond fragile thinness into nothingness. Fragile thinness suggests that the love is not quite gone - is still hanging by a thread. I wondered whether you might perhaps leave out the word goodbye and simply go for something like "Pressed to a faded fragile thinness" . I don't think this scans as well as your line though. Like the way in the next two lines the bill and the wine pick up again on the sunset dinner theme. Finally I really wondered about the relevancy of the line "Like all the rest", until the suggestiveness suddenly dawned on me - now I see it as adding a great deal to the poem. As you know this is only my second attempt at commenting on someone else's poetry so be gentle with me ! .................. lol [This message has been edited by Poertree (edited 11-09-1999).] |
||
|
jenni Member
since 1999-09-11
Posts 478Washington D.C. |
roxanne and poertree-- thank you both very much! i'm glad you both enjoyed it! poertree, i see what you're saying about the past tense in line 3. i did intend this, and was aware that the past tense usually means a loss of some "immediacy." to some degree, however, the poem is about the desire to "turn back time," and i wanted to create a feeling of longing here, which i didn't think would work as well in the present tense. (i also worked to get the feeling of reaching back through time by references to the sun in "reverse" order of sunset, then noontime, followed by morning.) anyway, i don't think just changing "tried" to "try" in line 3 would work; lines 10, 11 and 12 would have to change as well, with 10 and 11 becoming something like "we both know, as the bill is being settled, / and the wine is losing its flush;" not an improvement if you ask me. but conveying the same themes here in a present tense poem is intriguing, and i'll work on it. here's my thinking on "the violets we picked" line. one of the things i tried to do in the poem was have movement from specific to general and back again throughout, i.e., a specific rose and candle on a table, to the general time of love in the past, to the specific event of the speaker and the lover picking violets, to the general or metaphorical crushing of love, back to the specific dinner tab, and finally out and away with the general pleas, sighs and indigo lies. i also was trying (yes, i put some thought into this one, lol) another reverse order thing, with the memories/descriptions getting more specific further "back" in time (the memories associated here with "noontime" being more general than those associated with "morning"). anyway, the intersection of those two lines of thought require there to be a "we" in that line, as i see it. (does this make ANY sense to you, or anyone out there? if it does, someone please explain it to me, lol.) (this whole thing started as a simple experiment to write a poem using color, lol.) the "fragile thinness of goodbye"... well, there's no "logic" here, but i think "goodbye" has a quality and substance to it, a shape, a feel... a fragile thiness; it is not nothingness. but thanks for raising this point, it is quite interesting. now, there, was that gentle enough?  thanks again for your very thoughtful comments! [This message has been edited by jenni (edited 11-10-1999).] [This message has been edited by jenni (edited 11-10-1999).] |
||
|
Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
Jenni, I don't want to make a big issue of the past and present debate, because I agree with you that the poem does convey a feeling of almost wistful longing. It's just that when I first read it my immediate thought was of two people sitting quietly at a table in the dying light with the debris of a finished meal around them (like the debris of their relationship) the coffee going cold and the mints untouched. The bill paid (the account squared) but still a curious reluctance to get up and leave - to finally break away. Looked at in that way I thought that you could in fact get away with changing "tried" with out tampering with the rest of the poem and the tenses at the end. There they are sitting their - sad smiles - both knowing (both not admitting openly) that it is over. But your way of handling it is probably better .I missed the going back in time with the reverse order of the time of day - nice. Also the way you then revert to"night" at the end of the poem continues that idea. As for the rest of your explanation - HELP !! Yes I see, now that you point out to me, what you are doing, what scares me to death is the idea that anyone can put so much detailed analytical thought into a poem at the production stage. I hope that level of analysis is not mandatory for writing good poetry or I am an "ex-poet" ... Lol Oh ... and another thing |
||
|
jenni Member
since 1999-09-11
Posts 478Washington D.C. |
poertree-- i have no idea what is required to be a good poet, lol, but you are NOT going to be an ex-poet, if i have anything to say about it! (and can you imagine me keeping quiet? LOL) i did put alot of thought into the poem, i hope not too much. like i said, i intended to write a poem using color (after writing "yellow wood"), and started out to tell a simple story going through the spectrum of light red-orange-yellow-green-blue-indigo-violet (my high school science teacher would be SO proud of me, lol). i played around with it in my head, and got the basic structure, saw how i could do the whole reverse order of the sun thing, and i was off. (i like starting to write with two ideas, or two things i'm trying to accomplish.) once i started writing i thought that working through the light spectrum and going back in time wasn't enough, it was lacking something, so i consciously tried to make the specific-general-specific movement work (most of it was already there), thinking this would give the poem some life, some tension. the violets were originally to have been picked in the spring, and i next tried another reverse order thing, setting the opening in autumn, then a reference to summer, the violets in spring, and perhaps something with winter at the end... it all got to be too much, and my little poem (and my little brain) couldn't handle it, lol. out came the seasonal references. some tweaking here and there, and then i let it sit. i should say at this point i still had blanks for some words, to be filled in later. (sometimes i think its better not to get hung up on finding a word and deal with it later, lol.) coming back to it, i basically liked it, but thought it was too linear (the color spectrum thing going this way and the time thing that way), and that it just kind of ended, blah; soooo, i reworked my original "the last of the wine _______" (i was thinking some kind of verb there) into the wine losing its flush, which i liked both because it seemed to suggest a returning to the senses, and because it tied in nicely with the rose in line 1, which at that point still was a "red rose." some more tweaking and fooling around, yadda yadda, and then i let it sit again. coming back to it, i thought the opening lines were way too obvious, red, orange, yellow, and green were coming on too fast and strong, so i went soft on the red by not mentioning it explicitly. (the word "rose" itself is a color anyway, so it's still there without being an adjective, and, at all events, if one of the colors was going to go, i thought it should be red, with its connotations as the color of passion, something that the speaker and the lover here have lost. AND, seriously, i could hear Brad groaning at the "red rose", and thought this was not a good way to get the poem started, lol. thanks, brad! ) deletion of "red" screwed up my line 1, and i still wasn't happy with the ending of the poem; i thought i needed to tie the ending back in to the beginning better (to soften the cursed linearity... no "hard geometry" here, my friend LOL .) sooo... the rose became a "fragrant rose", and the original "false lulling lies of indigo night" became "SWEET lulling lies," which i liked better in the last line anyway. after some more deletions and reinstatements of individual words here and there, i said "enough" (although looking at it now, i think i stopped too soon; lines 3-5 need some work). my original 10-line draft was now a 14-line piece, and all i could think was, jenni, you stupid, silly, girl, you should have just started out to write a sonnet. to which i replied (to myself), but i'm afraid to write a sonnet. lol... and there ya have it. [This message has been edited by jenni (edited 11-10-1999).] |
||
|
Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
It's kind of funny. I'm thanked before I even say anything.  I like this poem except, of course, for those first three words and yes I did groan. You don't need it and I would argue drop the whole flower, start with the sunset which is a powerful enough image to stand by itself. The dusky orange glint of sunset off the water, The candle’s yellow glow upon our little table, Seems to me it's much stronger this way. All tried vainly to recall the lush green summer of our love, I think maybe you went too far in the general here. 'summer of our love' reminds me of 'The boys of summer' for some reason. Maybe drop 'of our love' and say 'our' at some point. When, in noontime’s bright sun, We dreamt beneath a bold blue sky. I think you let the colors take over the poem. This seems strained. Starting with an idea is great but don't force it; let the poem write itself. Who said that? The violets we picked one morning in the rain, I placed in the volume of Shelley you gave me; But even so had our love been crushed between unwitting words, Pressed to the fragile thinness of goodbye. I think this part is what make the poem. Not just the Shelly stuff but you've taken the metaphor and shown how the simple image reflects and adds to the feeling of the relationship and then you add still more by combining it with 'goodbye'. I love this kind of stuff. We both knew, after the bill was settled, And the wine had lost its flush, That the pleas and sighs to turn back time were, Like all the rest, But the sweet lulling lies of indigo night. I like indigo night (but I just like the word indigo) but 'sweet lulling lies' seems a bit too much for me, too melodramatic -- especially if you're shooting for a wistful tone. I wonder if you might try to create the feeling of a 'sigh' without actually using the word. Concentrate on the eyes of the couple of something like that -- where they are looking. I might even consider a flashback in this poem. I also might think about the 'bill' a little bit more. Seems there might be more to play with there. How much was it? Did they do Dutch? Did they fight over it? I think you might be able to do the same thing as you did with violet metaphors. All these are just suggestions of course. I enjoyed the poem very much (except for the first three words) Brad |
||
|
Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
Jenni I just changed my mind .. "Pressed to the fragile thinness of goodbye." is the best line of the poem .. beautiful .. Philip |
||
kaile
since 2000-02-06
Posts 5146singapore |
firstly, i will like to thank you for spending so much time on my poem "betrayal"--it's really nice to know that someone is paying so much attention to ur work.incidentally, i have some questions for you and if u have the time,pls do ans my questions... i loved this poem--what vivid images this forms on my head!!! "But even so had our love been crushed between unwitting words;pressed to the fragile thinness of goodbye" beautiful lines--i imagine this couple might still have feelings for each other and that it even hurts more to part......the subtle hint to the helplessness they felt......beautiful!!! i'm sorry i can't offer more than these lines of compliments,i don't know much about poetry,do forgive me")  |
||
|
warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Jenni, I see this was brought back by Philip. I'm so glad he did so, otherwise I would have missed a truly wonderful poem, laced with color and subtle emotion. A couple of suggestions...perhaps a change in the eighth line to: "Yet our love had been crushed between unwitting words" (I loved the last half of that line). The next line is, by far, the best. Then, I feel the last line could read, "But sweet lulling lies of an indigo night". Minor, I admit, and, I promise, I'm not nit-picking, it just sounds better to me. This is a layered piece of great imagery... the employment of color woven throughout was almost photographic. Excellent work, Jenni! Kristine Thoughts of a dry brain in a dry season ~ T.S. Eliot |
||
|
jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Jenni: I'm gonna have to say that I liked this one. I'm going to offer my critique before I read the other comments to this one. I have no good reason for this other than I feel like doing it that way.  What you seem to do so well here is communicate the sadness of not being able to reclaim something that was very pleasant. "The fragrant rose, the dusky orange glint of sunset off the water, The candle’s yellow glow upon our little table," My first reaction was, "good lord, Jenni, what were you thinking?" I suspect Brad said something about wanting to throw his monitor across the room. After reading the rest of the poem I had a change of heart about the first line. You were trying to recreate a special moment here and I suspect you wanted the first lines to sound as though we heard it all before. "All tried vainly to recall the lush green summer of our love, When, in noontime’s bright sun, We dreamt beneath a bold blue sky." By "All" do you mean "We both" or "We"? "All" makes it sound like you are talking about more than two people. I think what I liked most about this was the atmosphere you created with subtlety: "orange glint", "yellow glow", "lush green summer", "bold blue sky" all either warm and comforting or invigorating. You almost made be forget that the couple "vainly" tried to recall what all this was like. Then I notice a turn. "The violets we picked one morning in the rain," In comparison with the preceding lines, this one is very flat. Violets are only violets (not deep, fragrant violets) and rain is only rain (not refreshing summer rain). I placed in the volume of Shelley you gave me; But even so had our love been crushed between unwitting words, Pressed to the fragile thinness of goodbye." These were my favorite lines in the poem. The imagery/symbolism here is remarkable and complicated. "We both knew, after the bill was settled, And the wine had lost its flush, That the pleas and sighs to turn back time were, Like all the rest," These lines too were "matter-of-fact" ... no embellishment, flat like the wine. But then you do something curious. "But the sweet lulling lies of indigo night." You revert to romantic vividness. Not merely lies but "sweet lulling lies". You make the lies seem almost pleasant here. Very nice job on this Jenni. And Philip, thanks for resurrecting it. Jim |
||
|
captaincargo Member
since 1999-11-25
Posts 109Corning, N.Y. U.S.A. |
jenni, I think this is superb, and I don't use that word often. So much body! Visual, emotional and abstract images combine, to form a real prescence for the reader. The line, "But even so had our love been crushed between unwitting words" was wonderful. But it was followed by an equally brilliant line, "Pressed to the fragile thinness of goodbye." OmiGod! How did you ever come up with that? I just loved it!! This was a superior effort on your part, Bravo! Cap. "I know that Nature's tears have wet The world of sympathy; but you, Who know not sorrow yet, Call it the dew." Althea Gyles "Sympathy" Cap. Carg. |
||
|
jenni Member
since 1999-09-11
Posts 478Washington D.C. |
kaile, kris, jim and cap, thanks alot! you are all too, too kind. kris-- i like saying "but even so" rather than "yet," i think this both drives home and "turns" the comparison a little better. i love your suggestion for the last line, though. mind if i steal it? (see below.) thanks! jim-- now i know how you felt when joanna brought back your piece, lol. i wasn't quite ready for this! "My first reaction was, 'good lord, Jenni, what were you thinking?'" LOL, i say that alot myself when i read something i wrote a while back. yes, i was trying to set up a scene that screamed "romantic dinner!" lol i went a little overboard, i think, but i am NOT going to pay for brad's monitor, lol. "By "All" do you mean "We both" or "We"? "All" makes it sound like you are talking about more than two people." By 'all' i meant the rose, the sunset, the candlelight, making them little actors in the whole play, cast in supporting roles to aid the main characters in their attempt to recapture what was lost. "Not merely lies but "sweet lulling lies". You make the lies seem almost pleasant here." yes, indeed. *sigh* still lies, though. thanks for your kind words; glad you enjoyed it. and philip-- glad you finally see the "logic" here, i knew you'd come around, lol. ok, i've been thinking about revising this piece ever since it was originally posted; i still haven't figured it out yet (like i said, i wasn't quite ready for this, philip! THANKS, lol), but here's an attempted revision: ~~~~~ The dusky orange glint of sunset off the water, The candle’s yellow glow upon our little table, All tried vainly to recall more verdant times When, under summer's noontime sun, A sheltering blue sky seemed a promise of our love. The violets we picked one morning in the rain, I placed in the volume of Shelley you gave me; But even so had our love been crushed between unwitting words, Pressed to the fragile thinness of goodbye. We both knew, after the bill was settled, And the wine had lost its flush, That the whispered hues of longing were, Like all the rest, But sweet lulling lies of an indigo night. ~~~~~ anyway, that's the best i can do right now, i think. jim, don't even THINK of saying that writing this is "easier" than a sonnet, lol. thanks to everyone, especially brad and kris, your suggestions were great. did i make it worse? jenni |
||
|
Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Hey Jenni, Well since you already revised before I could butcher ....errrr...I mean before I could suggest changings, I will focus my attention on the revision "The dusky orange glint of sunset off the water," I found "of sunset off" a little clunky. Consider maybe something like "of sunset over water". "The candle’s yellow glow upon our little table, All tried vainly to recall more verdant times When, under summer's noontime sun, A sheltering blue sky seemed a promise of our love." Good section even though the "sheltering blue sky" seemed a little cliched....but for some reason, for a change, I didn't mind it. It must've been a good night's sleep "The violets we picked one morning in the rain, I placed in the volume of Shelley you gave me;" Thought you could have shortened these lines down just a smidgen, maybe something like "The violets we picked in morning's rain/placed in the volume of Shelly you gave me;" "But even so had our love been crushed between unwitting words, Pressed to the fragile thinness of goodbye." I liked the way you compared this to the relationship. "We both knew, after the bill was settled, And the wine had lost its flush, That the whispered hues of longing were, Like all the rest, But sweet lulling lies of an indigo night." I was kind of dissappointed with the ending. I thought the last three lines were bodering on cliches..."whispered hues", "sweet lulling"...."indigo night". Just an opinion, anyways, thanks for the read and take care, Trevor |
||
|
Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
J "The dusky orange glint of sunset off the water," I found "of sunset off" a little clunky. Consider maybe something like "of sunset over water". I agree with Trevor about this .. maybe "of sunset on the water". P |
||
|
Not A Poet Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885Oklahoma, USA |
Hi Jenni, Sorry I can't offer the valuable, in-depth critique you usually have for me, but here are my impressions anyway. First off, it is fascinating although sad. I really enjoyed it. For some reason I thought the lines The violets we picked one morning in the rain, I placed in the volume of Shelley you gave me; made the best impression on me. Brad seemed to think you made too much reference to color but I think that was positive for me. You did an excellent job of presenting the emotion here. I can almost hear myself thinking these same thoughts but I'm sure I could never have written them. There have been some suggestions on the first line. I don't know that I necessarily agree with any of them but it does seem to read a little awkward or something. After reading again, maybe Brad is right that the first 3 words could just be dropped. Finally I find the line We both knew, after the bill was settled, to not flow well with the rest of the poem. I think my problem is with "bill was settled" just seeming mundane compared with the other choices of words. But I don't have a suggestion. And for Brad, "summer of our love" to me seem more like "summer of 42" than "the boys of summer." Well Thanks much. Pete What terms shall I find sufficiently simple in their sublimity -- sufficiently sublime in their simplicity -- for the mere enunciation of my theme? Edgar Allan Poe |
||
|
jenni Member
since 1999-09-11
Posts 478Washington D.C. |
trevor-- thanks for your comments. you're right about the first line, and i think philip's suggestion "of sunset on the water" might be a good one. i like "whispered hues," actually, and will keep that; i like "hue," as in a half-hearted "hue and cry" in pursuit of something, here whispered, and of course "hue" as in color, too. "sheltering blue sky" is going to go; i knew it was cliched when i wrote it but felt like i had to put something in there, lol. like i said, i wasn't quite ready to revisit this, lol. actually both the green and blue sections are going to go, i seem to be having trouble with them, and don't quite know what to do with them yet. they're my favorite colors, too, lol, go figure. thanks for giving it a read. pete-- don't sell yourself short, your comments were great. i was trying to make "after the bill was settled" a little 'flat'. i'm not sure now whether that's a good idea, but it's nice to know i succeeded with something! lol see my comments above to trevor about the first line. thanks for your comments! jenni |
||
|
jbouder Member Elite
since 1999-09-18
Posts 2534Whole Sort Of Genl Mish Mash |
Jenni: How about "... recall the verdant summer of our love." The sound may not be right but I like it because it preserves your "green" idea and, as a bonus, implies a bit of "unripeness of experience" as Merriam Webster puts it. I keep thinking about the blue part. Take it or leave it, JMHO. Jim "If I rest, I rust." - Martin Luther |
||
|
WAHMOM2 New Member
since 2000-02-15
Posts 3 |
These words, very powerful in their meaning and bring to me feelings of longing and sadness of their lost intimacy. The violets we picked one morning in the rain, I placed in the volume of Shelley you gave me; But even so had our love been crushed between unwitting words, Pressed to the fragile thinness of goodbye. |
||
|
|
⇧ top of page ⇧ |
|
| All times are ET (US). All dates are in Year-Month-Day format. | ||
