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A Garden
| Critical Analysis #1 |
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A Garden |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
A Garden Let me make a garden in your heart, Give me a virgin sward of green, A fertile page of promise, To write a personal Eden. Trust me with land before un-tilled To cultivate an artificial scene, To end the innocence of nature But paint creation's canvas with my love. Let me make a garden in your heart not decked with gaudy annuals or riotous with fleeting colour wind flickering and shallow. No place for hard geometry or slothful chaos masquerading in robes of contemporary fashion from ideas planted or plagiarized. But let me make a garden from my mind, Strongly structured, shaping nature's bones, To grow a lasting legacy, Testimonial to our love. A green and hedge lined vista To point the straight and narrow way, Yet edged with secret scented spaces Lest life become predictable and bland. A garden where there is no fear in growth and change, renewal and decay, Shedding its outward seasonal coat, But deep rooted bringing timeless joy. Let me make a garden in your heart, Tended with infinity of care, Transcending all materiality, Our own eternal rendezvous. |
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| © Copyright 1999 Poertree - All Rights Reserved | |||
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russelle Junior Member
since 1999-11-02
Posts 21Chicago, Il. USA |
loved the concept, great metaphore, russelle. |
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jenni Member
since 1999-09-11
Posts 478Washington D.C. |
poertree– i love gardening, and i actually like poems using gardening as a metaphor for love and life, though many think the metaphor a cliche. i have two minor criticisms of your poem, however, and one major concern. the two minor points: first, the line at the end of the second verse -- "...paint nature's canvas with my love" -- feels out of place here, in my opinion. you're mixing metaphors. (earlier you speak of "writ[ing] a personal Eden" on a "fertile page of promise;" this doesn't bother me, for i think you have adequately tied the writing metaphor into your gardening theme with the "fertile" page.) second, you say your garden will be "No place for hard geometry," but just a few lines later you speak of it as being "strongly structured" and having "A green and hedge lined vista / To point the straight and narrow way[.]" this seems a bit like hard geometry to me (especially if you're thinking boxwoods, lol.) anyway, you might want to fiddle around with that some, if you come to think (as i do) that there's an inconsistency there. but, as i said, i have a more central concern here, a more philosophical one, i guess. in your gardening metaphor, you desire a "virgin sward of green" and "land before untilled," and you speak of creating a "personal Eden." first of all, on a literal basis, i don't know where you'd ever find this piece of property, but it is a nice thought, i suppose. my concern, though, is that the garden here is a metaphorical one, in your love’s heart, and it seems like you are asking a bit too much of him/her. i don't think anyone comes to the kind of lasting Love of which you speak with a heart "untilled" by at LEAST an adolescent crush or infatuation, if not by one or several significant prior relationships. i guess it just seems to me that the kind of innocence in which you wish to plant your seed isn't likely to exist in someone old enough to be creating Edens with someone else in the first place; your garden dream, then, as i see it, is doomed to failure even before you begin (you will never find such a person with a virgin sward of green), or, worse, will be founded on a sham, a lie (your love will tell you his or her heart has not been tilled when in fact it has). *sigh* perhaps all Edens are doomed to be lost, but your poem doesn't take up that theme. (now that, to me, would be an interesting poem.) your poem comes off -- to me, at least -- as but a typical male fantasy; the wife is to be virginal, pure, and "untilled," while it's perfectly fine for the man to have plenty of ... prior gardening experience, so to speak. even if the "speaker" in your poem is female, there is still inequality in experience between the speaker and the speaker's beloved, and an imbalance both in who will do the "creating" of this wonderful garden and for whom it is to be created. (the speaker alone is to take all the "action" in the poem, "Let ME make a garden..." etc., and states his/her desire to create a "personal" Eden”.) this is hardly the basis for a long-lasting relationship, in my opinion. Your poem, then, left me with an uneasy feeling, which i don’t believe you intended. I must say i really liked the lines “slothful chaos masquerading / in robes of contemporary fashion” and the idea of a hedge “edged with secret scented spaces;” they made me think of my own garden, both how it is and how I’d like it to be, lol. But if i am way off base about any of the above, misinterpreting something, or just plain dense, please feel free to tell me (I’m afraid you will not be the first to till that ground, though  ). I really would like to hear your thoughts. [This message has been edited by jenni (edited 11-06-1999).] [This message has been edited by jenni (edited 11-06-1999).] |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
Thanks for the attention Jenni. For want of time I hope you don't mind if I just work through your comments as you wrote them. First the mixed metaphors. I see what you are saying but to be honest I can't really see the problem in that they are a distance apart in the poem. Furthermore the are two elements of "innocence" involved. That of the subject person and that of nature (the metaphor) itself. Perhaps I am getting too involved and complicated here, but I had in mind an innocent heart and mind being impressed by something at the same time both innocent and personal. Two elements .. two metaphors. I haven't explained this well, but without writing an essay it's difficult! Your second point is much easier. I completely disagree!! English gardens, at least, tend to fall into fairly clear types. Formal classic gardens of the typed portrayed in the sixth stanza (I have such internationally acclaimed gardens as Sissinghurst and Hidcote in mind) are by no stretch of the imagination "hard geometry". Hard geometry conjures up for me just what the phrase seems to suggest - gardens incorporating a good deal of non-man made hard material such as concrete laid out in a very regular fashion with no concessions to the curves of nature. They have their place and can be impressive, but in my opinion are likely to be transitory. In relation to your main point - I hardly know where to begin ... Heavens! Perhaps the first thing to say is that I think that what you are basically bringing out is the essentially rather shallow nature of the poem. Yes it is simplistic which is perhaps unsurprising as it was my first. I do agree that the theme of an unrealistic expectation, an expectation and eventually bitter disillusionment would create a good deal more tension and probably result in a more "energetic" poem. However I can't really see the relevance of your comments about the unrealistic aspirations in the poem. This really puzzled me because surely many many poems are centred around "ideals", "fantasies" and unattainable but nevertheless desirable and dreamed of perfection. Much of Donne's poetry seems to me to portray extreme and even ridiculous depths of human love, but this does not detract from its validity as an art form does it? Is there anything particularly wrong with aiming high, with expecting the best, or even the impossible - if it is good? Where else, if not in poetry, are such emotions to be shown? Yes the speaker may be dreaming he/she may well be asking the impossible, but the beauty is in having the courage and childlike confidence to ask in the first place. Which takes me to your next point where you introduce what I might refer to as "the male imbalance" point - lol. The whole point about this poem is that it was intended to have a dream-like, childish innocence about it. The metaphors are all pointing at "mind" and "heart" and even the word "virgin" (which should perhaps be changed) was intended in this light. Additionally you will notice that the speaker is always asking - not imposing - not telling - not taking, but simply asking to be given the opportunity to try and show that he or she is worthy of being entrusted with a fragile gift. The implication I had hope was the speaker him/herself has as high ideals and was as innocent as the subject, and think this comes through somewhat in the final stanza. Yours is only the second substantive feedback I have had on this poem. The first was from an 83 year old gentleman married for 60 years who felt that it mirrored perfectly his feelings when he first met his wife (Wow). What I am saying is that possibly your comments are more a reflection of your own experiences. "Unease" may result perhaps from a feeling that we ought to be able to get close to the perfection asked for in the poem but often fail due to our own frailties. Finally, on a lighter note, does such a thing as a "typical male" exist or is this again just a little subjective? I read The Yellow Road, and the penultimate stanza possibly gives more than a small clue as to why you reacted to A Garden as you did? Now it's your turn to tell me that I am way off beam ...... |
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jenni Member
since 1999-09-11
Posts 478Washington D.C. |
Poertree– you are right, many poems center around dreams or fantasies, the “unattainable but nevertheless desirable and dreamed of perfection,” as you put it. However, when Shelley (just to take one example) aches for the beauty and heavenly simplicity of the skylark’s spirit, and writes “Teach me half the gladness / That thy brain must know, / Such harmonious madness / From my lips would flow / The world should listen then -- as I am listening now,” there is a subtle sense -- absent in your poem -- that the speaker implicitly recognizes that he will not, and perhaps can not, attain the dream. (yes, of course, it is still worth desiring or striving for.) i guess i simply didn’t get the sense from your poem that the speaker believed or even considered the dream of the “garden” here to be unrealistic or possibly unattainable, or that it took any courage or childlike confidence to dream this dream in the first place. if that was your intention, i don’t think you made it clear enough. as to my comments being a reflection of my own experiences, well, i guess they are, lol. Who’s aren’t? I hope you are not suggesting that my comments are somehow invalid because they are subjective. If you believe that, what ever are you doing posting a poem in this forum? Everyone will react to a poem differently, subjectively, if you will. Subjective though my reactions may have been, however, at every turn in my posting i tried to ground my comments in the poem itself, in the language that you used and the implications therefrom. To paraphrase dave berry, i don’t think I’m simply making this up, lol. What i meant by “typical male fantasy,” lol, was not a fantasy of any supposed “typical male,” but rather a fantasy that was typically male, or of a type and kind that has been associated on prior occasions with the male of our species, lol. if you will read my posting again, you will see that my reaction to the piece was not grounded in any belief that the poem was a “male fantasy” (typical or not); i indicated that i had the same misgivings about it if the speaker were female. (Indeed, until your email the other day, i didn’t know your gender, and in writing my comments i was not presuming to guess the gender of the speaker.) as to the mixed metaphors, i don’t see how you can say the painting metaphor is a distance away from the gardening metaphor, when it is smack in the middle of a poem that is (except for that one line) nothing but a gardening metaphor. I did see the two elements of innocence (i liked that aspect of the piece, by the way), but if your intent was to have the gardening metaphor act on one and the painting metaphor on the other, this should have been developed more, in my opinion. the “hard geometry”... well, we’ll have to agree to disagree there. (Looks like we’ll have to agree to disagree on everything else, too, lol. That’s ok. ) The phrase simply doesn’t conjure up concrete walks to me (and i don’t see why it would necessarily). “Hard geometry,” to me,conjures up a highly structured garden with geometric features or elements, such as formal parterres. I didn’t see “hard” as referring to the materials used to create the geometry or geometric forms. anyway.... lol. Sorry for spouting off so much, but I’m enjoying this debate! Now it’s your turn to tell me where I’m wrong, lol. I hope you are having fun with this, too... please know that all of my comments are given in the spirit of one reader’s friendly free advice; i have a lot of respect for you and for your poem, especially after hearing that this is your first. (Trust me, you do not want to read MY first poem, lol.) I thoroughly enjoyed your second posting out here, and hope we see many more from your pen. Thanks for taking the time to listen to and so thoughtfully consider my comments. (Oh, and one more thing... thanks also for giving “yellow wood” a read! )[This message has been edited by jenni (edited 11-07-1999).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I can't stay away from this one; I'm just salivating as I read these posts. Great job -- both of you Actually, I have my poetry notebook and writing down ideas and triggers for a good three or four poems -- I steal stuff all the time. On the stereotypical male idea -- just thought I'd add my two cents on that one. While no individual is typical, there are speech patterns and social-cultural pressures that sort of channel personalities in such a way to create what can be called typical. However much you disagree with the conversation, you find you more or less have to follow the stereotypes. In the quest for identity, one will hear desciptions of what it is to be male. These descriptions become prescriptions over time. Presto, we have someone who follows stereotypes and will claim, justifiably, his individuality at the same time. Does that make any sense? Brad PS I'll get back to the poem later. |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
Jenni, I don't know whether you are doing this intentionally or not, but you are provoking me into to thinking about what I was writing more now than when I wrote it! I guess that is good, and let me say straightaway that I too am loving this exchange, and of course I take your comments in exactly the way you intend. I am just very grateful for the time you are devoting. Excuse me if I just ignore your individual points for a minute (and come back to them later) while I try to remind myself what I was trying to do here! The one thing I am absolutely sure of is that the physical dimension of human love was not uppermost in my thought, in fact entirely the opposite. I was seeking to imbue human love with an almost ethereal spiritual quality. Something beyond the brief span of earthly love enjoyed by two people which is why I suppose the slant you put on the poem was a bit of an unexpected shock. When I wrote it I clearly remember deciding to use the metaphor of a beautiful garden as being one idea of the closest thing to a reflection of spiritual love here on earth. I deliberately (and perhaps provocatively) set out to get away from the usual idea that God's unadulterated creation ie Eden or a beautiful unspoiled landscape is the nearest we mortals come to divine beauty. I thought that I would, rather impertinently, suggest that Eden and Nature could actually be improved upon if modified by the absolutely pure love of one human for another - hence the reference to a "personal" Eden and "ending the innocence of nature" BUT improving it by overlaying it with love. I also recall deciding to split the poem into three sections. That where the emphasis is on the divine or spiritual and that where the gardening metaphor is developed. Thus the first stanza and most of the second deal with the plea of the writer to be allowed access to a precious (almost hallowed place) ie the untainted heart of his/her beloved. I hoped that the references to Eden and "creation" gave a kind grand and religious feel to the poem. The last line of the second stanza was however designed to lead into what then follows in the next five stanza's. This is perhaps why I still have a blank spot in relation to your mixed metaphor point. You see, in my mind, the references to writing and the page of promise are references to the heart and mind of the beloved, whereas the reference to painting relates to what the writer proposes to give to his/her beloved ie the "suitably modified" (lol) garden. Still, Jenni, I see what you mean about the proximity of the usage. I am inexperienced as a poet - do you really think that this matters, and, if so, why? Anyway to carrying on where I left off; stanza's 3 - 7 deal with the quality of the love that the writer intends to gift to his/her beloved. I can't emphasise enough that I still see this as essentially a giving thing on the part of the writer and in no way a demanding expectation of perfection. The writer is effectively saying YOU are my idea of perfection, now please let me do my best to live up to the standard you set and this is what I propose..... As far as I can see there is one line only that does not sit very well with this (and gives some weight to your original criticism ! Lol) and that is the second line of the poem "Give me a virgin sward of green". As I said before the word virgin is perhaps unfortunate, it definitely detracts from the desired non-materiality slant. Also I now see that the word "Give" does sound a rather demanding note - not "Please give" but "Give" lol. I still wonder though whether this really matters taken in the context of the whole piece. On to the last stanza where I very deliberately reverted to an emphasis on non-materiality and timelessness. In fact, come to think of it, the principal way in which I tried to indicate the spiritual side of love was by laying emphasis on its timeless quality throughout the poem thus; not "fleeting" or "shallow", but "lasting", superficially fun ie "outward season coat" but "deep-rooted", "timeless", and then an "infinity" and "eternal". Finally, if there could be any doubt, I actually use the words "transcending materiality". Now back to your points. Clearly if you read the second line of the poem as the demand of a chauvinistic male (lol), rather than the request of an idealistic dreamer, or a young person deeply in love (maybe the same thing!) then the mind-set for the remainder of the poem is somewhat fixed. Maybe you are right, maybe the atmosphere is one of materialistic expectation but I can't see it that way myself. Which is why your original post was so interesting. I think the poem is sufficiently "woolly" as to allow the reader to insert him or herself into the role of the writer or subject and then react to the piece according to their own experiences in love. That's certainly what my gentleman friend did. He saw himself as the writer 60 years ago and his wife as the subject. I wondered whether maybe after reading line two you thought to yourself .. "HEY, who's this clown demanding the impossible of me, hummph !!" and from that point on you were maybe looking for other evidence to support the case that you were dealing with the unreasonable demands of a typical male . You say in your second posting that "at every turn you tried to ground your comments in the poem itself". Hummm. I think what you actually did was form an instant opinion and then extend (unjustifiably in my opinion) to reach the conclusion of "inequality" between the speaker and subject and the suggestion that it's ok for a man to play around but not a potential wife. (Goodness - about as far away from my philosophy as you can get - what did I do wrong !!!! ??)Yes well without going round in circles I guess it was that second line which maybe spoils the idea that this poem was NOT about bodies or physicality, but about mind and spirituality. Also about mutuality, not egotistical individualism, hence the use of the words "our love" and "our eternal". Subjectivity. Of course every person's opinion is subjective, but, as I said above, what grabbed my attention about your comments was the dramatic way in which your particular subjectivity had very nearly succeeded in causing the poem to convey to you more or less the exact opposite of what I intended - lol. So I thought to myself "Fine lets go and find something she has written!", and I read Yellow Road and thought I was soooo clever! Oh yes one more point - "hard geometry". I was tired last night and missed the point I should have made. Going back to your first posting, there is absolutely no inconsistency between hard geometry and "strongly structured". Strongly structured links back and contrasts with "shallow", "gaudy annuals". Most garden designers advocate a basic structure to any garden usually comprising trees and large perennial shrubs, hedges, areas of green etc, before the frothy beds and annuals are put in. I was simply using this analogy, and whether the garden is informal, formal or whatever, if it is to be long lasting and "important" it will have a good strong structure. What I should have emphasised in dealing with your comment about hard geometry is not so much the tangible garden it conjures up in mind (where we disagree), but the impression the words leave on the reader. Surely you will concede that the words "hard" and "geometry" convey a sense of inflexibility, rigidity and conservatism. If they do, then that is what is intended. The writer's love will neither be too regulation bound and predictable nor will it be "chaotic" (later in the stanza) .. ie it will be perfect ... Lol .... sorry Jenni - can't get away from perfection ... Over to you ....Thanks Brad for your two cents (pennies over here -lol) worth. Yes your comment about stereotypes rings only too many bells here in class riddled England. (Actually I started a poem on this but can't finish it). My great goal in life is to have someone mistake me for an itinerant ex-fishmongers wife from Grimsby!! (and you see that comment in itself pigeon-holes me, where will it ever end - lol). And Russelle thanks also for your original kind comment. |
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jenni Member
since 1999-09-11
Posts 478Washington D.C. |
Poertree– thanks for running through your mind-set as you were composing, i found it very interesting! i wish more people would do that out here. i think it’s fascinating how poems are created. i did not read line 2 of the poem, or any other line, as the demand of a chauvinistic male. i see no “demands” here at all, and never did; indeed, on the first reading and every subsequent reading, i have found nothing but warmth, tenderness and love in the speaker’s voice. This will be now the third time i’ll say this, i think, but i did NOT read the poem or judge its effectiveness thinking that the speaker was male. what i said was that the poem seemed to resemble what is popularly called a “typical male fantasy,” but that i did not think it effective even when read from the point of view of a female speaker. Why this gender-neutral ineffectiveness, in my opinion? because the subject’s role in the poem is rather static (simply as provider of innocence and that “virgin sward”, lol), while the speaker’s role is more dynamic; creation of the garden is solely in the speaker’s province. ANY relationship, i don’t care who’s involved, isn’t going to last long if one of the people is just supposed to sit there and be loved upon. but that’s just silly ol’ subjective jenni again, with those strange notions of hers that a true, lasting love is a partnership based on equality. i also don’t get where you think that i see any “materialistic expectation”, “bodies” or “physicality” in the piece, i don’t think I’ve ever mentioned that at all, and I’m not even quite sure what you mean by that here. the main point in my original comments was that, by desiring absolutle purity, a virgin sward, as the starting point for the garden, the speaker was doomed to failure; much in the same way one might say that an aspiring writer whose dream of writing the Great American Novel depended on a $1 million annuity and a private island in the Caribbean was doomed never to write that novel. perhaps now, in retrospect, if you had clarified that the subject already possessed the virgin sward and the land untilled, or that the speaker, at least, believed the subject to (e.g., perhaps something as simple as saying “YOUR fertile page of promise” in line 3), i would never have set off down that road. oh well, lol, it’s been a fun trip. one last comment on “hard geometry,” if you can stand it, lol. when i first read the poem, yes, the image of parterres flashed through my mind upon that phrase. i do not see this as a matter of garden design, however, but word choice. you are absolutely right, the impression words leave on the reader is what matters. and yes, i entirely agree that the words "hard" and "geometry" “convey a sense of inflexibility, rigidity and conservatism.” But so do the words "strong", “structure”, “line”, “point”, “straight”, and “edge,” as well as the phrase “straight and narrow” itself. these words are supposed to constitute your contrast to “hard” and “geometry,” and, in my opinion, i don’t think they do that very well. Can we make this the longest thread in the history of the forum? Back to you, o green-thumbed wordsmith. |
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Poertree Senior Member
since 1999-11-05
Posts 1359UK |
Jenni, My! You don't give up easily do you .. I am near to holding up the white flag! Just one last subtle flanking manoeuver .. lol. Seriously though, I take your point, maybe I have over-egged the materialism point in my last post. As to where I thought you were seeing it - well that goes way back to your first post: "... "Untilled" by at LEAST an adolescent crush or infatuation, if not by several significant prior relationships........." And ".. Plant your seed ... " (lol) And ".....the wife is to be virginal, pure, and "untilled" ...." And "...... fine for the man to have plenty of ... prior gardening experience , so to speak....." C'mon c'mon Jenni you have to admit that the innuendo in "plant your seed" and "prior gardening experience" hardly points up a very spiritual interpretation of the piece. Having said that I admit I have got hung up on that aspect and, you are right, you have focussed on the (as you see it) imbalance between speaker and subject. Again, you are right, (hey did you notice I said "you are right" twice in two lines!!) I suppose I "saw" the subject very much as the passive party, a kind of vision of a young man (which I am not btw - lol) kneeling at the feet of his beloved pleading with her to let him love her. The story will of course continue - this is just the beginning. Maybe the young lady will say "no way you are too good for me too pure too innocent, I could never live up to your expectations" or maybe she will say "Hey c'mon, loosen up", or then again, and I would like to believe that this is the most likely response, "Yes I will gladly let you, if you will reciprocate and let me write my love in your heart". Perhaps I just stopped the poem too soon!! As to your point about desiring absolute purity. Yes that is exactly the ideal the speaker expects and believes he/she will find in his/her love. I really can't see why this is a problem, and fine, if he/she doesn't find it there may well be disappointment and bitterness as the real world intrudes, but this is for later, and as a possibility/probability is left hanging by the poem. Perhaps this is where the uneasiness originates - but does it matter? Hard geometry. Here I really feel we are making progress .. lol. I'm glad we agree on what the words convey, but why do you then pluck out other words which of course taken in isolation do not contrast particularly well with "hard geometry"? The words you isolate are acted upon by the context within which they appear to create an impression in the reader's mind, if it doesn't work for you then it doesn't altogether surprise me as I am inexperienced. I shall try and bear your comments in mind for future efforts. Talking of which, if my use of adjectives and adverbs in this poem bothered you, just wait for the plethora used in the next one - you will have a field day (English for bonanza). Oh, and one last thing - we do agree on what really matters .... silly ol' subjective Philip has exactly the same "strange notions" as you - in my case tried and tested . |
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hoot_owl_rn Member Patricius
since 1999-07-05
Posts 10750Glen Hope, PA USA |
I can't say much here that hasn't already been said...but I do want to comment about the postings Both Jenni and Poertree....welcome to Critical Analysis, it is a pleasure to have both of you here, what a plus to our site |
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jamaicabradley Junior Member
since 1999-11-04
Posts 39 |
Hello Poetree, Thank you for the mail, I intend on returning in a day or two, but my schedule is a bit hectic at the moment...I am so excited to talk with you about England...writing...stagnation...I am not originally from there, just living there now, so I think it will be interesting to bounce ideas and thoughts back and forth. I have really enjoyed your poem, unfortunately, after reading your dialogue with jenni the whole way through, I am speechless, but will comment at a later date. Thank you for the read, I really do like it, I tend to just read something all the way through and then measure at what level I have interpreted the piece and what it says to me, as far as picking out particulars, I am still working on this part of being critical. Speak to you soon. |
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