»
Archives
»
Critical Analysis #1
»
In the Black at the Back of a Child's Closed Closet Door
| Critical Analysis #1 |
|
In the Black at the Back of a Child's Closed Closet Door |
|
|
Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Tonight, as I lay in bed with my covers clutching me tight, in darkness black as anything that lives underfoot or hidden behind a child's closet door, I hear a bump Or was it a rumble? A noise nonetheless and I guess it is just my imagination dreaming of worries; nothing to fear. When I was five, the hatchet scratching born behind my closet door from scarred things that listened for slowing breaths and peered through cracks for closing eyes, was an imagined reality. Was that a footstep? Is that a mumble? Was that a cough? Is that a stumble? Now I wish my fears were only that which hides in the black at the back of a child's closet door. [This message has been edited by Trevor (edited 10-07-1999).] [This message has been edited by Trevor (edited 10-14-1999).] |
||
| © Copyright 1999 Trevor Davis - All Rights Reserved | |||
|
Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Trevor, You post one poem and you're already complaining about the lack of critiques (what a whiner  ? So what if you're making a valid point?Anyway, You already know that I like this 'Poe' poem and be getting away from the rigid attention to form that he used, I think in some ways you've surpassed him (let's see if that causes any disagreement  )Three quick points: 1. Glad you kept the 'lay' in the second line. Definite Faulkner echo there which, to my mind, adds to the foreboding. 'Tonight' -- well, that was your choice. What do other people think? Begin the poem with "Tonight" or, perhaps a more formal "This night" -- come on, let's try to confuse him even more than he already naturally is (which is probably why I agree with him so much )2. 'with my covers clutching me tight' -- I love stuff like this. By reversing the 'normal' action, you further enhance the feeling of powerlessness. 3. The last stanza: This just works so well for me. You've built this up so well; the tension and the, indeed, child-like play of the earlier stanzas come together quite satisfyingly with still another reversal (or maybe transference if you like). Trying to put 'only' your fear behind the door. Reminds me of Merwin for some reason. Great job, Brad PS To everyone: A critique doesn't have to be negative, it just has to be detailed (the more, the better). Actually, negative or positive, the more you put into the critique, the better the 'real' compliment to the writer . |
||
|
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Let me preface this by saying I know absolutely diddly about critiquing. I know what I like, I know what I don't like, and once in a while I can even tell you why. Truth is, I don't even like the term. Critiquing is done by critics, and those critters are just a step above lawyers in the evolutions change. So, instead of trying to critique your poem, what say we just talk about it?Brad raised a point about your first word, "Tonight," so I have to assume there's some history of discussion on the poem. I further have to assume the alternatives were something like "One night" or "At night." And the answer, I think, lies solely in your intention. By setting the time frame of the action "Tonight," you give the poem a sense of immediacy. This isn't the past, an event drawn from ancient memories that few of us care about, but is something happening in the here and now. What you risk losing with that approach is a sense of timelessness, a feeling that this is a Universal moment shared by humanity. Both approaches are valid, so it comes down to your intention? Personally, I think the immediacy is good. But I also think it causes you some problems with tense later in the poem. And I really question if it's necessary. For hundreds of years now, writer's have used simple past tense structure and readers have been trained to make that past into the story's Now. It's entirely psychological, but nonetheless very real. It's the reason writers avoid flashbacks when they can, knowing the average reader loses interest in anything that doesn't happen in the story's Now (even though the writer adroitly slips from past perfect to simple past structure quickly, the reader "knows" the difference). Does it really matter? Ask yourself if you could read a novel written entirely in simple present tense. "I walk to the store and there I see a burglar running through the door, dark metal pistol waving wildly before him. He has blue eyes - or are they green?" There's nothing grammatically "wrong" with this structure, but neither is it the way readers have been trained over the course of several hundred years. In a novel it would be impossible, in a short work it's merely awkward. But it IS awkward. Okay, enough about tense (for now). Let's look at the first verse: I agree with Brad that your reversal is wonderful. I don't, however, like the construction of your prepositional phrasing. It (again) feels awkward, telling me the right things in the wrong order. Now, I'll admit the sequence has to be based largely on your intent - what is the most important message you want to convey. But I think you've placed the strongest element of the verse (your reversal) in probably the weakest position. There's no right or wrong, so the best I can tell you is how I would change it: Tonight, in darkness as black as anything that lives underfoot or hides behind a child's closet door, laying in bed with my covers clutching me tight, I heard a bump. Changing the order changes the importance (which may void your intent). Okay, I also changed "hidden" to parallel "lives." and I just couldn't help myself in changing the whole thing to past tense. I am rather proud, however, that I managed to refrain from changing "tight" to the more grammatically correct "tightly." The second short verse was a problem for me, as you slipped from present to past tense, but now seems to fit better with the above changes. Unfortunately, those changes necessarily reverberate through the rest of the poem. Worse, in the third verse, messing with the tense detracts from your internal rhyme when "guess" becomes "guessed." Personally, I would probably rewrite much of that verse, keeping only the very strong "dreaming of worries; nothing to fear." Or was it a rumble? A sound still intrusive, illusive, a creation of my imagination dreaming of worries; nothing to fear. Okay, that rough and not as subtle as yours. I changed your alliteration from n's to s's and I think that detracted from the strength of your last, hanging line. But you don't want my words, but rather my ideas, and I think you can see where I was going with it. You can't admit it was a "noise nonetheless," then turn around and guess it wasn't real. The flashback (groan) is a necessary evil, giving motivation for thinking the sound is imaginary. As motivation, though, you might want to consider putting it before, rather than after. Tough call, because a flashback that early wouldn't be a good thing. I enjoyed most of the phrasing in this verse, especially the use of "born," but thought "hatchet scratching" was pushing too hard for the internal rhyme. "Short breaths" confused me (as opposed to the deep breathing of sleep), and I think I would have avoided the repetition of "imagination." When I was five, the scratching born behind my closet door from scarred things listening for steady breaths and peering through cracks for closing eyes, was the reality of my mind. Okay, you need something to give a transition from the flashback to the Now of the story, but your next stanza is the only part of the poem I really, really dislike. It's jarring in the context of the rest, and it's wholly illogical. A footstep is hard to confuse with a mumble, a cough nothing like a stumble. I feel as if this was written solely for the rhyme. I would keep the opening as my transition, but change the rest. Was that a stumble? A falter in the dark? Or merely the sounds of my confusion and alarm? Your conclusion is strong, but I think you've again let your search for rhyme and alliteration lead you away from stronger words and even from logic. Your use of "that which" is nebulous and weak, there simply for the sake of the rhyme. And you've used "closet" to modify "door" when I think you really want closet to be the noun. By changing it only slightly, you not only avoid that but have the chance to bring the poem full-circle. Now I wish my fears were only fantasies hiding in the black at the back behind a child's closet door. Okay, Trevor, that's my two cents worth. Personally, I don't think it's greatly productive to discuss a poem without first discussing the intent of the poet. What you want to accomplish determines the best (or maybe just better?) way to accomplish it. I don't know what you wanted to convey with this work. A sense of foreboding? The very real difference between imagined and actual fears? Or maybe it was just an exercise in emulation of Poe? (Brad and I can discuss that in another thread! ) I think you've done a credible job with content (if I read the content correctly), and a wonderful job with alliteration and internal rhyme structures. You word choice in several instances (most already noted) was just this side of brilliant. All in all, a good read.And now that you have my two cents, I'd like to offer you the rest of the nickel. In poetry, there's invariably more than one way to reach a goal. I suspect that's true in most of life. I think you'll find the atmosphere at Passions a bit different from what you may be accustomed. Not better. Not, I hope, worse. Just different. We like to treat people with respect, not for what they do or can do, but for who they are. Blanket accusations and strident generalities don't hold a lot of weight. Communication can happen without the need to first shock people in an attempt to get their attention. Those who give more than they receive, much as Brad does here on a daily basis, do so because they currently have more to offer. They know it won't always be that way. The learning curve doesn't run at a constant angle, and those with talent and desire (dare I say, Passion) have a remarkable tendency to catch - and often overtake - those they once followed. The students become the teachers, and the teachers are amply rewarded, both along the way and in the final stretch. Then, with luck and a little caring, the cycle can begin anew. Passions is still young, still evolving. People like Brad and the many others here who devote their time and hearts are guiding that evolution in what I think is a pretty nice destination. We ain't there yet, of course. We don't pretend we have any answers, let alone the answers, but I do think we've developed a philosophy that works for us. That philosophy is based on tolerance, patience and - above all - respect. I bid you welcome, Trevor, and sincerely hope you will find comfort in our midst. |
||
|
jenni Member
since 1999-09-11
Posts 478Washington D.C. |
trevor, i must be the only one who thought your original posting on brad's "talk show" poem was humorous, refreshing, and much needed, lol. anyway... i generally agree with ron about the problems with tense, especially later on in the poem. it isn't clear whether the footstep, mumble, cough, or stumble are things the speaker is hearing now, or remembering from the childhood experiences. certainly the one line after the first verse ("or was it a rumble?") should be in the present tense, i.e., "or is it a rumble?". the poem would have more power if the footstep, mumble, etc. in the second to last verse were all in present tense, but that's up to you. generally, i like the immediacy of the present tense here; fright, horror, dread, are all emotions that lose alot of meaning and power after the fear is over. i think a shift into past tense as ron suggests would weaken the force of the poem. please take out the comma after "darkness" in the third line? please??? one more thing: i think your closing lines are unnecessarily cluttered. repeating your earlier phrasing "... in the black // behind a child's closet door" here would work much better in my opinion. p.s.: by all means keep the "hatchet scratching," lol, that's a great line. |
||
|
Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Well, well, Ron, before we discuss the Poe thing, I think we're going to have to discuss this authorial intent thing of yours (do you hear my hatchet scratching, yet )I reread it and don't see the tense problem yet. Have to wait and see what Trevor says on that one. On a general level concerning teaching (although I don't think I teach here, just share), I agree with you completely. I often tell my students that my job is to make my job unnecessary. Teaching isn't about teaching, it's about motivating people to learn. Brad |
||
|
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
quote: It could easily be interpreted either way, Brad. The lines I'm talking about, of course, are: I hear a bump/Or was it a rumble? Now, I'll admit I sort of laid the groundwork for this. Compare Trevor's lines to the present tense prose I used: "His eyes are blue - or are they green?" To make that parallel Trevor's it should be changed to "His eyes are blue - or were they green?" The tense problems with that are fairly obvious? Okay, I know I shuffled the deck and stacked the cards. My parallel isn't really all that parallel. It could be effectively argued there is an ever so slight passage of time between Trevor's lines. But my answer would still be that the change in tense grabs my attention in a place I don't think was intended. As for Poe and authorial intent, I look forward to what I'm sure are going to be spirited discussions. p.s. I'm just plain wierd and my hours often reflect that. What's the time difference in Korea? [This message has been edited by Ron (edited 10-04-1999).] |
||
|
Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
Thank you all for your comments. Brad, You suck....wait a second I already did my rant And I'm still waiting for an email on the continuing saga of FREEDOM and TRUTH...and yes...I'm a HUGE whiner....damn it man, you should now that by now But thank you for the flattering critique. And I agree with you comments on critiques...(surprise, surprise, we agree)BTW, who is Merwin?....and I don't know whether to be flattered or pissed that my poem is being compared to "Poe" Did you read my suggestions yet on Joan Rivers?Ron, I originally had "This night" instead of "Tonight", but decided to change it up a bit. I think either works and portrays a sense of now. That's kind of what I was going for throughout the whole poem and whenever it is read for it to be the now. HERE, NOW, THERE IS DANGER. I'm going to try and break my own poem down for the purpose of elaborating and then perhaps if you have the time, you could comment again and tell me what you think. "Tonight, as I lay in bed with my covers clutching me tight, in darkness, as black as anything that lives underfoot or hidden behind a child's closet door," You have a very valid point about the order in which this is in but I will cry "INTENT!!!!" on this one. I wanted to say ...Tonight, a man is in his bed, it is dark in his room and he hears a noise, in an attempt to first portray a mundane event like going to bed and then build into it a sense of fear...not tonight, a man is in the dark, lying in bed and he hears a noise....because I think bringing the dark into it first, conveys a sense of "forebodding" a little too early.....usually the dark is associated with something evil. I think "lay" could be a tense problem or interpretted as one....but Brad has forceably convinced me to keep it...That boy's got some temper Tell me if I'm making any sense cause sometimes I wonder...But I do think your suggestions on this stanza would work in this piece as well."I hear a bump Or was it a rumble?" I guess perhaps, maybe sort-a, the word "hear" could be a tense problem but I was trying to say that the first line "I hear a bump" is the immediate (rather than just saying bump as an onemanapia(sp?) while "Or was it a rumble" is more of a reflection and self doubt about the noise (An uncertain noise and then a reflection on that noise hence the illusion of past where in actuality it is the present, then the present thinking of the past)...I better stop on this one or I'll confuse myself "A noise nonetheless and I guess it is just my imagination dreaming of worries;" Basically I was trying to say the noise wasn't his imagination but he thinks the worry of it was (not that he was imagining the noise)...I don't know if I did an effective job of conveying that (or the fact that he was worried) so I threw in the next line, I know you already realize what the stanzas are about but I thought I'd elaborate. (BTW, I really liked some of your line revisions, I think they would work in this poem as well.) I don't want to seem like an ingrate but I'm going to keep this stanza the way it is. "nothing to fear." "When I was five, the hatchet scratching born behind my closet door" You have a good point about the "hatchet" but I think adding hatchet adds to the evil persona of the imaginary things that live in a child's closet....but then again removing it might add to the mystery of such a creature. What do you think? "from scarred things that listened for short breaths and peered through cracks for closing eyes, was the reality of imagination." I completely agree with you about the "short breaths" comment. Short breaths sounds too quick, like someone who just ran a marathon or is in heat . Thanks for pointing that out. I think I might change it to "slowing" (which might also fit well because of the "closing" in the next line)....or "slowed" or "shallow"(I think a slumbering person's breath is more shallow than deep....except for the long sighs)...maybe even "somber"....what do you think? Also I think that adding the flashback any earlier (it would have to be the beginning of the poem)than this would take away from any tension the beginning had."Was that a footstep? Or was it a mumble? Was that a cough? Or was it a stumble?" Guilty as charged...Yeah that's mainly like it is for rhyming reasons and tempo change. I was thinking of inept burglars banging about, making foolish noises...But perhaps a change is needed with ample spacing, like: "Was that a footstep? Is that a mumble? Was that a cough? Is that a stumble?" Or maybe even without the spacing. By omitting the "or" it removes the questioning of 2 noises and replaces it with 4 seperate noises, hopefully ridding it of it's illogical sense....But also jumping tenses again....but the same applies here as it does with my comments earlier on tense....One is a noise and one is a reflection on a noise....Either that or a complete format change in that stanza....but I kind of liked the way the tempo changed with those lines. What'cha think? "Now I wish my fears were only that which hid in the black at the back of a child's closet door." I'm hooked on my ending and I don't think I'll change it. This is the point where he realizes that someone/or some people are outside his bedroom door and he wishes that it was just his imagination like he earlier thought or like when he was a kid and used to hear noises. I disagree with you about your comments on "that which"...if anything "black" is the weak link of that stanza because I've only kept it in there for rhyme. Perhaps if I change "hid" to "hides" it would come off a little stronger. I'm trying to say something about the creatures again to illustrate imagination instead of just coming out and saying imagination. "that which", those things, the creatures....I dunno, with that in mind and the change of "hid",do you still think it is weak? I'm going to put into another simple form just to eliviate any minor confusion about the story of the poem. (SETTING)-I am lying in bed right now.(I can't show it so I have to say it) "BUMP!" (dialogue)What was that noise? I'm a little worried...ahhh it's probably only my imagination. I won't worry about it like I did when I was five and I heard noises coming from my closet. "CREAK!COUGH!CHATTER!CLANG!" (dialogue) OK, I'm sure that was a noise. God I wish I was a kid again and the scary noises were nothing to be frightened of unlike the sounds of two burglars in my house. The whole intent of this poem is to try and convey that sometimes what we think is imagined is actually real and vice versa....and sometimes we fear things we shouldn't (like a child)and sometimes we don't fear things we should (at least not until it's too late)....I tried to give the poem a forebodding feel as well....am I being redundant? I'm finding it hard to coherantly explain the intent or story of the poem....I think this is perhaps one of the longest responses to a critique that I have ever wrote....thanks for getting me thinking and please be patient I have a little more to go In no way was I trying to emulate "Poe" but I will say there is definetly a comparable style to his work and this poem....what can I do...he is one of the few poets I have read. Maybe I'm reading into this next part too much but I feel that your comments are regarding the little rant I posted when I first got here....so I will respond accordingly. "We like to treat people with respect, not for what they do or can do, but for who they are." I believe in respect as well and other than my rant I think I've acted pretty civil and friendly. But as for who people are....doesn't what we do or can't do or haven't tried or do all the time factor into who we are? and if so doesn't that factor into respect? Should I respect a someone who is capable of giving critiques, (which I think most are...a critique is nothing more than an opinion...almost everything in literature is debatable), but won't do so out of fear or laziness even when other people give up their time to comment on their work? cliche coming up...respect is a two way street. "Blanket accusations and strident generalities don't hold a lot of weight." I agree but the list of the accused was far too long to write out "Communication can happen without the need to first shock people in an attempt to get their attention." I was not trying to shock but rather illustrate a point. "Those who give more than they receive, much as Brad does here on a daily basis, do so because they currently have more to offer." I disagree. I think some people are either too selfish to spend the time to comment on work or afraid that people will think they don't know what they are talking about when in fact a good critique is just your indepth feelings of a poem....we all know what we like of dislike....most of the time that is. I also think some people have themselves convinced that they don't have much to offer in ways of critiquing even though they probably haven't fully explored their potential. "They know it won't always be that way. The learning curve doesn't run at a constant angle, and those with talent and desire (dare I say, Passion) have a remarkable tendency to catch - and often overtake - those they once followed. The students become the teachers, and the teachers are amply rewarded, both along the way and in the final stretch. Then, with luck and a little caring, the cycle can begin anew" Well I can't argue that. Well said. "Passions is still young, still evolving. People like Brad and the many others here who devote their time and hearts are guiding that evolution in what I think is a pretty nice destination." Yes and sometimes people need to be reminded of where that destination is. I do think this is a good place, it has grown on me in the past week but there is still room for improvement and all I was trying to do was inspire thoughts on how it may be improved. I don't have the answers either but it never hurts to think about what they might be. "We ain't there yet, of course. We don't pretend we have any answers, let alone the answers, but I do think we've developed a philosophy that works for us. That philosophy is based on tolerance, patience and - above all - respect." Yeah respect...pffft! Respect this (Trevor holds up the bird)...J/K It is a good philosophy, especially the tolerance part because if you weren't I'm sure we wouldn't be having this discussion right now."I bid you welcome, Trevor, and sincerely hope you will find comfort in our midst." Thanks for the hospitality Ron. Once again thanks for your helpful comments and sorry about the length of this response....UGGG, I'm exhausted now (and if none of this response makes sense...I blame it on a hang-over). Jenni, I guess we're the only ones who had fun on Brad's "Talk Show" I'm getting all jumbled with ideas about tense...it's making me quite tense (A ham I am)....please read my comments to Ron and tell me if the explanation towards tenses made any sense? I agree with your comment on changing it to past tense....and just for you I'll scratch out the comma ...actually after looking at that line I think I'll take out the first "as"....As far as the ending is concerned....I was planning on keeping it as is even though the "black" part is kind of forced.....but now I just might change it and scrap the "which hid" or change it to "which hides"...soooo much to think about between your's, Brad's and Ron's comments....why did I ask for critiques?? Anyways thanks for your comments Jenni. Take Care Everyone [This message has been edited by Trevor (edited 10-04-1999).] [This message has been edited by Trevor (edited 10-05-1999).] |
||
|
Iloveit Senior Member
since 1999-09-02
Posts 1121NM |
well, I just wanted to say good poem..... lol, well, that's not all, but what hasn't already been said? lol but did want to say with people like Ron, Brad, and Trevor (welcome-from me although I am fairly new here too) this place is bound to be a success have really enjoyed learning the critiquing process from the poem backwards.....this is great! and I really did like your poem, after reading all about your intent and the reasons you wrote it, just wanted to say that to me, that is the way it came across, I liked it a lot |
||
|
Iloveit Senior Member
since 1999-09-02
Posts 1121NM |
ok, trevor for some reason I was laying on my bed last night and your poem came into my head lol, and no there were no hatchet scratchings behind the closet door...but I was thinking that I disagree with ron, on the stanza with the cough and stumble, Was that a footstep? Is that a mumble? Was that a cough? Is that a stumble? he said those sounds could not be confused, but I think he forgets the intention of the poem, the fear, when the brain is on overload and the ears are straining to hear any little sound a cough, a stumble, either could be confused....now you have to think that this is not whooping cough, being confused with someone stumbling into a wall, these are subtle noises of someone sneaking and trying to be quiet...easily confused to straining ears.... ok, now I got that out, and will agree with the rest of what he said about that stanza, the rhythm broke from the rest of the poem, and it was sort of jarring I did rewrite it a bit, see if you like this...or not...lol.....that's the one thing I find hard about this forum, because I feel like I am questioning the intentions of the poet, maybe trevor wanted it to be jarring and break the rhythm......but anyway here goes........ what was that?… a footstep? or a mumble? my ears don't lie, but was it a cough? or a stumble? |
||
|
Trevor Senior Member
since 1999-08-12
Posts 700Canada |
lloveit: Thanks for the extra input/suggestions and I'm kinda flattered that you thought of my poem outside of this forum. I indeed did want it to "jar" readers away from the rhythm and flow of the rest of the poem. The prior stanza I envisioned the man reflecting calmly on youthful experiences and then he is suddenly "jarred" back to reality and his mind begins to race a bit about the noises he is hearing. I appreciate the suggestion for that stanza and maybe it does need a little re-write but I want to keep it short and quick paced for I feel that sometimes tempo plays a significant role in the presentation of ideas. ANyways, thanks again and take care, Trevor |
||
|
doreen peri Member Elite
since 1999-05-25
Posts 3812Virginia |
I don't have much to say. I already critiqued this poem at the Scroll and frankly, you took none of my comments to heart and made absolutely no edits in response to my opinion. So, to give you my honest opinion, I think this poem sucks. hehehe... I figured a second critique from me here added to the lengthy discussion already at hand wouldn't do you any good anyway. So, I guess I'll go back to my sandwich. [This message has been edited by doreen peri (edited 10-13-1999).] |
||
|
|
⇧ top of page ⇧ |
|
| All times are ET (US). All dates are in Year-Month-Day format. | ||