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Critical Analysis #1
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xEmperorEmber
Member
since 2000-03-28
Posts 136
tx

0 posted 2001-07-25 01:30 PM


we all grow slowly into the same person
the originality only being different thoughts of one
mind
who the hell are we and name a good thing we've done
the thought of who we are makes me sick
everything anyone does is wrong
so arrogant to think a whole universe would cater to the needs
of one
but look at us still standing here following the ways of the dumb
but who am i to preach of serving when there's no work to be done
the god you love more than anything,
you've never seen
the drive that opens your eyes
is nothing but false hope and lies
and it never turns out quite the right way
nothing is ever the right way
i hate the way things are going
look at you
i cant stand what you do
frustrating to watch you waste away
as i stand bewildered with nothing to say
i just wish i could show you a better way
you brag of free will now let me see you use it
and anything you've ever touched, you've managed to abuse it
and your forsake your innocence until you loose it
what the hell is going on
don't just close your eyes
its gone on too long
I hate you
I hate myself
this life is nothing
you will burn yourself out
and when you finally do
you'll know what i am talking about
i hate what i see
and it doesn't change
please just change
take it all away
i am you

© Copyright 2001 Jimi Hendrix - All Rights Reserved
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
1 posted 2001-07-26 12:34 PM


Do I like this poem? No, I don't. If you reversed the idea, changed 'hate' to 'love', talk about diversity instead of monotony, the need to have God, not to leave God, I would dislike it just as much.

Why?

Because you aren't showing me anything, you are telling me how you feel, you are telling how "you" should feel, not trying to make me, the reader, feel anything.

Start with the image or situation that created the impetus for this and describe it. That might help (I can guarantee that that'll help in my case). Explore the images and the idea -- you do seem to have an uncontrolled passion at work -- and see what can be done if you channel these.

This may strike you as selfish and it is. I took the time, I like to be rewarded for that time.

Just an opinion,
Brad

Dark Enchantress
Senior Member
since 1999-07-27
Posts 1258
meet Morgana
2 posted 2001-07-26 05:11 PM


Yeah Paul!! Where do you get off writing just to release your emotions and express yourself! You're here to please us! You post for our approval!! Tsk, tsk, tsk...

Be kind, be true, be bold, be you.

Freedom comes when you learn to live unafraid.

Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-17
Posts 7704

3 posted 2001-07-26 07:04 PM


Nice sarcasm you have going there DE. Wonderful!  

Just wondering - are you aware this is the CA forum? Let me take a quote from the words that everyone reads above the reply box:

quote:
It's okay to tell someone that you dislike a poem here but make sure it is directed at the poem and not the poet. Remember to explain why you don't like the poem (or if you don't know, say that).


Perhaps you could keep that in mind next time you contribute in CA.  

K

Emporer - I agree with a lot of what Brad says. Perhaps you could limit your poem to one or two thoughts that are already in it...and show rather than tell. This would make your poem a lot more effective and give the reader something to connect to. At the moment it's quite a jumble of thoughts and passion. Passion is esential for any poetry I think so you have a great starting point...it needs fine tuning..

K

[This message has been edited by Severn (edited 07-26-2001).]

Dark Enchantress
Senior Member
since 1999-07-27
Posts 1258
meet Morgana
4 posted 2001-07-26 08:05 PM


I just don't think it's right to expect everyone to write the way "you" write. ("You meaning anybody..me, Paul, you, whoever) Some people write for their own emotions, some people write to express an opinion, and some people write for the formats and such. And nobody writes for the approval of anyone else. Or nobody should anyway. Anywho..I stay out of this forum because I don't care about making it perfect or beneficial to anybody...I just write. See...I'm the smart one.. blame Ember!  

Be kind, be true, be bold, be you.

Freedom comes when you learn to live unafraid.

hush
Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653
Ohio, USA
5 posted 2001-07-27 01:29 AM


Well DE.... obviously, people write to please themselves first and foremost.... but sometimes what really gives people pleasure is in improving their writing, and to do that, one almost always needs outside opinions/influences.

x Emp- To me, this poem is like a really angry rant... it kinda doesn't make a whole lot of sense... especially the ending. I would try to get your anger focused in one direction for the poem instead of all over, because it really confuses the reader.

You are more than the sum of what you consume
Desire is not an occupation
-Nicole Blackman/KMFDM

xEmperorEmber
Member
since 2000-03-28
Posts 136
tx
6 posted 2001-07-27 06:49 AM


I am not one to write a reply to my own poetry... especially when it has regard to the meaning... i usually explain the situation once, in the poem. But all that aside, first i guess where i am getting at with this is that, well simply put... you find the meaning in the poem, i don't outline it for you.  Vague is good.  If you didn't get a meaning out of it, thats your fault not the writers.  There is an emotion there, you are not relating. Thats no reason to ask for a story.   To put a limitation on poetry, well wouldn't that defeat the purpose of writing, only gaining yet another set of rules to conform to?  I find this a release.

Secondly, i don't care if you dislike this poem, print it and burn it if the satisfaction must be had, but as a moderator brad i think i would just expect more? To take something and not give anything in return? That was a rather bit harsh. Now a good defense would be to say that i posted it here, thats a given... but the way in which you approached the poem, when compared to that of others which you have approached.... well... i cant say much there. Something bothered me, i was deeply hurt, and you disrespected that(Do I like this poem? No, I don't), no offense, but "It's okay to tell someone that you dislike a poem here but make sure it is directed at the poem and not the poet." The poem is part of the poet, maybe a change in the slogan is in order?

"we all grow slowly into the same person the originality only being different thoughts of one mind"

The first line of the poem, this line is stating how everyone is losing originality in the rush of life, everything so fast, so new, so pretty. no time for a thought outside of shiny.

"who the hell are we and name a good thing we've done the thought of who we are makes me sick everything anyone does is wrong so arrogant to think a whole universe would cater to the needs of one"

What I was trying to express here is name a good thing we've done... i mean christ... just look at what goes on? we pull from everything we have, fuel, air... water... look at what we do to it (universe would cater to the needs of one)

"but look at us still standing here following the ways of the dumb but who am i to preach of serving when there's no work to be done the god you love more than anything,you've never seen"

We know what we do, but we do it any way, but who am i to say anything, there's nothing we can do, its a self fulfilling prophecy, and the one image of salvation, is one that no one has ever seen

"the drive that opens your eyes is nothing but false hope and lies and it never turns out quite the right way nothing is ever the right way i hate the way things are going look at you i cant stand what you do frustrating to watch you waste away as i stand bewildered with nothing to say i just wish i could show you a better way"

everything, what we work for? what it for... a new problem.. its all a gimmick.. more lies.. fake promises.. the drive we have for life is becoming material, and it all has defects.. its not the right way, and all i can do is just sit here and look dumb and its so ironic.. and frustrating, but i cant show you a better way.. i wish i could

"you brag of free will now let me see you use it and anything you've ever touched, you've managed to abuse it and your forsake your innocence until you loose it what the hell is going on don't just close your eyes its gone on too long"

The freedom that we are all so proud of, what do we do with it. (other than take it for granted) and what we get.. we misuse it... we don't deserve it, were slobs, and then we blow all we have at the first chance (losing our innocence), and then its gone.. and then we cry.  What the hell is it all about? its gone on too long.. but what are we to do? i don't know

"I hate you I hate myself this life is nothing you will burn yourself out and when you finally do you'll know what i am talking about i hate what i see and it doesn't change please just change take it all away i am you"

I hate you, but i hate myself too.. cause i am no better, we will use it all up.. then we will know what i was getting at (then maybe you will get the poem eh?) and here i beg for a change... just make this go away... and then i state once more... VERY CLEARLY, that i am what i hate....

so clearly there was direction, just find it....
you probably wont even read this.. but it just supports the poem... lol,
so i am fine with that. But perhaps its just me, i cant handle the heat. In fact i am sure thats the problem so I wont be posting in this forum. Thanks for your time.
Greatly Appreciated,
Ember

[This message has been edited by xEmperorEmber (edited 07-27-2001).]

Not A Poet
Member Elite
since 1999-11-03
Posts 3885
Oklahoma, USA
7 posted 2001-07-27 11:22 AM


I have to say that I am disappointed whenever any of our members leaves the forum over being offended by criticism. But that is the purpose of this forum. I thought Brad's critique was completely valid and constructive, if not supportive. He did not care for the poem and he explained why he felt that way. He was not alone in his appraisal either.

The poem belongs to the author who obviously has the right to accept or ignore any criticism. If one writes strictly for self satisfaction though, then I see nothing to be gained by posting in a forum where the basic tenet is critique. And if a poem is posted here then the author very well should expect criticism, some favorable but not always so. Different people have different likes and dislikes. They also have differing opinions as to what makes a poem good and what might help to improve one. I can think of very few which are perfect. And that is perfect in my personal opinion which most likely differs from another's opinion. So I think it is fair to say that most any poem could be improved, in someone's opinion. If that is not acceptable situation to an author then this is probably not the best venue for posting his or her work.

Kamla (Severn) already quoted our philosophy but I think it is important enough to repeat again.

quote:
It's okay to tell someone that you dislike a poem here but make sure it is directed at the poem and not the poet. Remember to explain why you don't like the poem (or if you don't know, say that).


Well, that's all for the sermon of the day. Everybody get back to writing. I'll see you later.

Pete

Never express yourself more clearly than you can think - Niels Bohr

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
8 posted 2001-07-27 05:21 PM


First, why wouldn't I read your comment?

Second, it is never my intent to hurt, anger, annoy, or vex people. I apologize.

Ember and Enchantress have brought a lot of questions to the table. They are interesting questions but, unfortunately, they are phrased as objective statements of fact. They aren't. They're opinions just like mine.

--Writers should write for themselves and only for themselves.

--Writers should not comment on their own work.

--Vague is good.

--It is the reader's responsibility to find the meaning of the poem. If they don't that's their fault.

--Conforming is bad, telling people what you want to read is bad.

--Writing is limited to explosions of self-expression

These are fascinating ideas; ideas, however, that can't be discussed with a simple yes or no response (and apparently they seem so obvious that they shouldn't be discussed).

I disagree.

I am unsure whether either the author or the defender is interested in discussing them (even though I think they relate directly to the poem) and I have a feeling that those who are interested in discussing them are already more inclined to agree with my opinion.

I would be preaching to the converted.

So, if you want to discuss these things, I'm here and would love to continue the conversation. If you don't, okay, that's fine but please understand that some of us have very different ideas when it comes to what you consider to be so obviously the right writing philosophy.

Please respect that.

Ember (Paul?), thanks for your comment. We actively encourage discussion here and it's hard to do that unless the author discusses his poem in his or her own thread. I know this goes against your philosophy and I appreciate your bending of that philosophy in order to discuss this.

Apparently, I didn't give you enough ideas to satisfy you? You feel that I simply stated "I don't like the poem"? I pointed out that you need to work from a more concrete image, a memory, a picture, a smell, the feel of concrete, the situation
that caused you to think these thoughts.

Show, don't tell, in essence, was what I was trying to get across.  You seem to disagree with that. The problem I see is that you are basically writing a thematic reversal of Whitman's theme in Leaves of Grass without all the good stuff he wrote to make his transcendental moment seem so real. Your meaning in the abstract is not really the issue for me (which is why I tried to explain the whole love/hate thing in the beginning), I thought I understood that and your explanation confirms so far that I did. I suggest that you go back and read Whitman and try to see the potential latent in applying your idea to concrete situations.

Yes, I'm working from the premise that the foundation of good poetry is the concrete image.

Is this true of all poetry?

No, but I don't see you working in the same vein as Gertrude Stein or the L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E poets. I don't see any particularly interesting, playful use of language here. It is, I think, a very direct poem in terms of the language.

If I'm missing something here, please let me know.

There's still a lot to talk about, a lot to discuss. I'll end with the problems of vagueness:

The problem with being vague is simply that a poem will inevitably fall into a reader's own experience. The vaguer you get, the more inevitable that becomes.

What's wrong with that?

I'm not reading you anymore, I'm reading me, I'm projecting my experiences onto your poem. A vague poem can really do nothing more than create a sense of "I know what you mean," "I relate to this."It doesn't really do anything that I don't already know, haven't already experienced. To some extent, of course, a poem has to contain this element (otherwise, it is incomprehensible)but if that's all it contains for the reader, it doesn't go anywhere.

It doesn't do anything new.

Shouldn't a poem show the reader something different?

Just an opinion,
Brad

hush
Senior Member
since 2001-05-27
Posts 1653
Ohio, USA
9 posted 2001-07-28 02:00 AM


"Vague is good.  If you didn't get a meaning out of it, thats your fault not the writers"

I don't think your poem is vague. I think it is scrambled. Each line that you dissected for us was very clear to me in the first place- it's just that the ideas are disconnected, and there's not enough to work with... like a connect the dots without numbers to follow.

You are more than the sum of what you consume
Desire is not an occupation
-Nicole Blackman/KMFDM

wpwpoet
Member
since 2001-07-25
Posts 99

10 posted 2001-07-28 08:07 AM


Actually I enjoyed this work. although I think it might make a better essay if restructured. but the point I get from it is clear. we are all to blame for all our mistakes. how can we be judges without judging ourselves first. Honestly I feel the world couldnt care less about me or my views, it is up to me to either see this world as good or evil. and as for the subject of God. We have a "free will" but that "free will" as the Bible decribes it is to deny God. To attack the writer is fulfill the prophesy of the work. To be offended is to do the same. As I said before I think converted to an essay this would much more readable...
peace love and understanding...wpwpoet

Dark Enchantress
Senior Member
since 1999-07-27
Posts 1258
meet Morgana
11 posted 2001-07-30 02:32 AM


I just get annoyed when some people act as though I'm supposed to write the same way they do. That I'm supposed to "enlighten" them somehow with my poetry. I enjoy a good review, but I don't write simply to impress. There are two times when I truly enjoy a poem (usually) and it's when I can really, really relate to what the writer is saying and also when the writer has shown me something that I haven't really thought of before. So in a way Brad I understad you completely. I respect however people choose to write. Most of my favorite writers have different styles. I just don't agree with pushing any particular style of writing on anyone...except for maybe the idea that you should write to satisfy yourself. Whether the satisfaction comes from knowing other people enjoy your work, or if it just comes from the fact that you were able to put your thoughts out on paper to better understand them...whatever your satisfaction comes from. Everyone is different. But that's just what I think.

Be kind, be true, be bold, be you.

Freedom comes when you learn to live unafraid.

[This message has been edited by Dark Enchantress (edited 07-30-2001).]

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705
Jejudo, South Korea
12 posted 2001-07-30 05:03 AM


Glad someone enjoyed the poem but I would say that nobody is attacking the writer. Just trying to give different suggestions/opinions on this specific poem.

Dark,

If you give a positive comment, aren't you pushing them in a direction?  I don't want to take too much more time here (certainly the Alley or Philosophy are more appropriate venues for this discussion), but if I understand you correctly, the only correct response is silence and who really wants that here?

Let the reader, within the realm of civility, say what he or she wants about the poem, not the person, and then let the author choose if that comment is useful or not.

That's all we try to do here.  Really, not trying to tell people how to write so much as offer different alternatives. Of course, I'm going to offer alternatives that I happen to think are right.  

Brad


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