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Forgive me, please
| Open Poetry #47 |
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Forgive me, please |
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OwlSA Member Rara Avis
since 2005-11-07
Posts 9347Durban, South Africa 
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FORGIVE ME, PLEASE 2 May 2011 Whilst understanding, though you may not think so, the tremendous significance of the death of Osama Bin Laden, though Al Quaeda still lives and will find a new leader if they don’t already have one or some . . . please forgive me and please, please, please try to understand if, for just one tiny moment of possibly unforgivable unreciprocated mercy, I am saddened at the death of one human being, despite his atrocious and forever unforgivable inhumanity to many more than the thousands he killed. Owl [This message has been edited by OwlSA (05-02-2011 03:50 AM).] |
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| © Copyright 2011 Diana van den Berg - All Rights Reserved | |||
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Margherita Member Seraphic
since 2003-02-08
Posts 22236Eternity |
Beloved Diana, you are the personification of love and I understand what you mean. I highly appreciate your being true to yourself with this offering. Killing should never ever be considered the solution to any problem, maybe one day we shall be enough evolved to avoid this inhuman solution. In forgiveness there is grace. I trust Osama Bin Laden will now see his life in its full meaning and he will be sad at how he acted and he will repent. If only we could grow into the awareness of being ONE. If only we could make clear to every single soul in this world and especially to those who have leading positions that priority must be given to provide a life of dignity for all people. Then revolutions would not have reason to exist and if we let only wisdom and love rule religious fundamentalism would have no reason to persist. Love and appreciation of your compassionate soul. Margherita |
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OwlSA Member Rara Avis
since 2005-11-07
Posts 9347Durban, South Africa |
Margherita, thank you for your very beautiful response. Whilst I agree with the philosophy you put forward, I haven't forgiven Osama Bin Laden, nor do I feel that am entitled to, as I haven't suffered directly by what he has done. It is just that I have at least a minimal amount of respect for even the worst of people, at the bottom of the scale, and varying amounts for others, and at the top of the scale I worship none. For people like Hitler, Osama Bin Laden, Mugabe and Jefffrey Dahmer, I only have the slightest most basic respect. If any of them were lying on the ground before me, I wouldn't kick them. For people like Mother Theresa and Nelson Mandela, I have the greatest amount of respect and awe. For everybody else my respect for them fits somewhere in between. Owl |
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Margherita Member Seraphic
since 2003-02-08
Posts 22236Eternity |
I believe, dear Owl, that there is a reason for every soul's life down here, even if it develops into the worst possible being. Atrocities born out of hatred should shake our conscience and make us more human, instead of giving rise to more hate. The Shoah for example should have healed us forever from killing innocent people, but the lesson has not been learned. I don't like the celebrations of this death ... as you say the problem is not solved ... Al Quaeda still exists sadly ... It is not you, dear Diana, who needs to be forgiven for being wise and good at heart. We must forgive ourselves for not being able to love, that's how I see it. With every new day we get a new opportunity to love. Love, Margherita [This message has been edited by Margherita (05-02-2011 08:28 AM).] |
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OwlSA Member Rara Avis
since 2005-11-07
Posts 9347Durban, South Africa |
Thank you for your kind and compassionate and beautifully-Margherita thoughts. If only everyone could think like you, the world would still not be perfect, but it would be an infinitely more wonderful place. Despite how lovely you are, it is SO possible to be like you. If one person can do it, so can others – it is that simple. With regard to: “Atrocities born out of hatred should shake our conscience/consciousness and make us more human, instead of giving rise to more hate. The Shoah for example should have healed us forever from killing innocent people, but the lesson has not been learned.” I agree with this with every fibre of my being. I had to look up “Shoah” and, for the benefit of anyone else who reads this and doesn't know what it is, I learned that it is the Holocaust (and/or a nine-hour thirty-six minute film completed by Claude Lanzmann in 1985 about the Holocaust). Owl |
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2islander2 Member Ascendant
since 2008-03-12
Posts 6825by the sea |
I understand that very well Owl, even I wrote a gloryfying poem of his death, every death is outrageaous and I will never anyone death, I post my poem after reading yours and will give explanation because I can understand that some people too can be happy , thanks for the brave and honoring poem. yann |
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ice Member Elite
since 2003-05-17
Posts 3404Pennsylvania |
Forgive you?, Forgive you for what? To be forgiven places you as a sinner, And you certainly are not.. I must repeat, are not! So there is nothing to forgive But what I do send across the water Is a hug, an embrace around the body of one Who stands in the literal, perfect ones shadow- The one said to have hung on a cross For all, including Bin Laden. I believe The light of all energy shines in your words Whatever it is that directs human progress Towards its potential, has guided your pen. May that energy bless you. May it shine its light on your doubters. |
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JerryPat2 Member Laureate
since 2011-02-06
Posts 16975South Louisiana |
No comment. ~ Borrow money from pessimists -- they don't expect it back. ~ |
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Margherita Member Seraphic
since 2003-02-08
Posts 22236Eternity |
In a recent poem about dreams by JerryPat I inserted this dream I had (night dream)into my comment and I think I will share it here for you, dear Owl. "I once had an amazing dream and I will never forget it: In that dream I stood on a terrace of a small white house facing another similar building and on that terrace there was Bin Laden looking right into my eyes and then he bent down in a rapid gesture ... in the dream I thought he is taking his gun to shoot me and fear paralyzed me, BUT Bin Laden straightened up again and between his hands he held a white dove and launched it in my direction!! My heart pounded still strongly when I woke up." Our thoughts no doubt influence our dreams and my wish for peace might have conjured up this dream. But I think there is also a confirmation in this that every person, no one excluded, has in him/herself the divine seed of love. Some may not remember where they come from and what's their mission on Earth ... but the seed is there. I trust Bin Laden now remembers and I dare think that he will be oh so sorry of how he invested his money. He should have invested in love and peace and justice, instead of investing in hatred and destruction. I read these words by Deepak Chopra recently: death is just an opportunity to re-invent your life anew (not the exact words, but my memory of it). And that's what I hope for all of us, to see the truth and try to live up to it. Hell, I even think that Lucifer will be rescued one time, because a God of love can't maintain an eternal project of condemnation. It makes no sense. Love and peace. Margherita |
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JerryPat2 Member Laureate
since 2011-02-06
Posts 16975South Louisiana |
"In a recent poem about dreams by JerryPat" Yes you did. I'm still glad the bastard is dead. Hip! Hip! Hooray, the bastard's dead! ~ Borrow money from pessimists -- they don't expect it back. ~ [This message has been edited by JerryPat2 (05-02-2011 11:43 AM).] |
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EmmaRose Senior Member
since 2011-03-02
Posts 1376Midwest |
Dear Owl, I too understand. EmmaRose |
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OwlSA Member Rara Avis
since 2005-11-07
Posts 9347Durban, South Africa |
Thank you, Ford, for your wonderfully warm, kind and supportive reply. Smiles. Thank you, for your No Comment, comment and your comment comment, Jerry. We are all welcome to our opinions and our own thoughts. Thank you, Margherita for your further thoughts on the matter. Your dream must have been terrifying. No wonder your heart was pounding when you woke up. Thank goodness the dream ended the way it did. I am sure that was the projection of your sweet self on the evil man. You, Margherita are the epitome of love of all kinds as I have said before. Smiles. Thank you, EmmaRose for your sweet understanding. Owl |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
Diana, I tried to explain to my military husband of AF magnitude my feelings; I saw his grimace, and yet, as I continued, he too tried to understand a woman's way at the whole situation. Our minds/hearts take nothing away from our losses in humanity; yet, we women will always understand losses in ways men never will. Compassion is very mecurial. An eye for an eye...is not always the best way to manage times; turning the other cheek is also not always the best answer. But from my few years here on earth, it seems that even He had his choices, and He always, always tried to do what was best for all. Can I say I didn't want justice? No, I can't. I did want that, but to what price? Do I fear now, as I have since? Yes. Kindness most often breeds kindness. Hatred rambles. I think my duty here is to dissolve hatred, as I know you do the same where you are. It is NOT a black and white world. There's a whole lot of gray to consider. [This message has been edited by Sunshine (05-03-2011 09:33 AM).] |
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JerryPat2 Member Laureate
since 2011-02-06
Posts 16975South Louisiana |
"Kindness most often breeds kindness" The horrible part about that is that you actually believe if we were just kind to the man who killed . . . Oh, the hell with it, Sunshine, why waste my breath, or finger power. ~ He is dead and I am proud of that fact. ~ |
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ice Member Elite
since 2003-05-17
Posts 3404Pennsylvania |
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" The words of a holy man, who was struck down, and died for his sin of loving too much...struck down just like the one who said "kill all the infidels" killed for his sins of killing... Odd how these things happen this way...Gandi and bin Ladan both now lay in marty's graves..We all must chose who to make our hero...chose who to believe in, and who to follow. Your poem has stirred up many feelings Diana, Exactly what good poetry is meant to do. नमस्ते, ford |
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serenity blaze Member Empyrean
since 2000-02-02
Posts 27738 |
Owl? You are a lovely, lovely person, and entitled to respect as you express your beliefs. I'm still sorting out my feelings on yesterday's events, but like you, I felt a squeamish nausea that didn't allow me a celebration. However, I did feel glad for those who expressed a sense of closure for the wound of terrorism, for those personal losses are gargantuan in comparison to my admittedly limited, (and blessedly minute) point of view on the matter. You are in no need of forgiveness, dear one. Your reverence of life--all life--inspires awe and reverence in me. I understand, too, those who have heartfelt total opposition to your viewpoint. I'm torn--as I confess that I do not like overt displays of jubilation during times such as these, but there is a warrior spirit in myself that understands and feels it--that bit of me that is a survivor, a fighter spirit which needs to be reconciled, somehow, with the bit of me that believes that all of us are in need of forgiveness for something. I think I've just expressed a condition of humanity, though.  ?You rest your weary brow, my friend.  And folks, this is a passionate place. You might disagree with Owl, but I would hope you could respectfully allow her expression without the displaced virulence. g'nite. |
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Alison 
since 2008-01-27
Posts 9318Lumpy oatmeal makes me crazy! |
Owl, Thank you for having the courage to write your heart. I see you as a person who feels deeply and I believe in your ability to turn from hate. Passionate dislike is the mirror image of love. I find that the power is lost when emotion is diffused. Then we can make rationale decisions and gain an understanding of what our personal lines are. Does that make sense? I don't hate Osama bin Laden because I believe that makes me give him more time than he deserves. He would love the comments and poetry that show hatred. He would love obscene gestures and wild emotion. I believe that fed him. So, while I don't mourn him - and I think that the world is better without him - I don't celebrate his death. I won't give him that time or any part of me. He's dead. Time will tell what happens next. Love, Alison |
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Dark Stranger Member Patricius
since 2001-03-19
Posts 13631West Coast |
lady Owl.. I would have shot him just as I would have shot a rabid dog...not because I hate the animal, but because the disease is dangerous. He is no different than many of his brothers, he just is responsible and therefore took on the target. In an ideal world we would sit down and debate and find common ground for peace...but until the world is ideal there still needs to be some enforcers that remove danger when possible. I adore your heart..and would defend it fiercely even in spite of your gentleness, against those who would take that belief of yours away from you. |
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icebox Member Elite
since 2003-05-03
Posts 4383in the shadows |
You have nothing for which to apologise. Humans always need a bogeyman. Personally, I am content that this soul has begun his 'tween lives period of karmic reflection. |
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OwlSA Member Rara Avis
since 2005-11-07
Posts 9347Durban, South Africa |
First of all, whilst I appreciate and love the support immensely of those wonderfully kind, lovely, sweet, compassionate, sensitive people who are concerned that I may be hurt/ offended/ angry/ upset/ disappointed/ anything else similar by any of the negative replies - let me reassure you that I expected all out war – but the comments from those who don’t agree with me have been infinitely milder than I expected. Thank you, dear people, nevertheless. Smiles. It has always been my contention – with everyone I come into contact with - my children, my ex-husband, my colleagues, my bosses, in friendships, with acquaintances, and my past pupils – that everyone has the right to say exactly what they think. Personally, I choose, very carefully, the way and the words I use to do that, but that is everyone’s privilege too. I often told my classes that they could say what they liked about me, no matter how hateful, no matter whether true or not – that is their right – but, if it was too my face, I expected it to be done sincerely and with courtesy and respect. If they were amongst themselves and I came round a corner or into a room and overheard their conversation which they weren’t expecting me to hear, it didn’t matter what and how they said it, nor what words they chose – and that that is everyone’s right. I have felt the same way – and expressed it – in a working environment when there were people who reported to me. I believe that if one is able to say what one likes about one’s job/ boss/ teacher/ trainer etc, it is a form of release and healing and a way to find a method to bring about change, if change is possible, or acceptance if change is not possible. I will reply to everyone individually a little later this evening, but for now I need to do telephone canvassing for my son, who is the candidate for Ward Councillor for the Democratic Alliance in the upcoming elections on 18 May in the neighbouring ward. There are only certain times which can be used for that. We do not phone anyone later than 8pm. Smiles, will talk again later. Owl |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." --Martin Luther King, Jr. |
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OwlSA Member Rara Avis
since 2005-11-07
Posts 9347Durban, South Africa |
Thank you for your reply Karilea. I agree with what you said except that I don’t believe in war or killing, though I do understand that if war is declared, there has to be defensive military action. I believe in life imprisonment with extremely harsh, but humane conditions for people who deserve it, or who need to be removed from society to protect society. I think too, that were some people didn’t read the poem in its entirety, but were fuelled by a few words of it, or skimmed it too fast to see what was said. I see that you did read it and did understand it in its entirety. Thank you. Jerry, whilst I see that you were replying to Karilea in the “waste of breath” and “(waste of) finger power” reply, I believe that you misunderstood what Karilea was saying. Thank you Ford (again), for your first reply. It is beautiful, warm and supportive. Your kindness and compassion take my breath away. Thank you, also, for your second reply. It is interesting, wise and enlightening. I appreciate it very much and it gave me, and hopefully other readers, much to ponder on. Karen, I am honoured by the things you said of me. I am in awe of your awe of me. I have always been in awe of you for many reasons, not the least being your delicious, refreshing, inspiring honesty and your immense compassion and kindness. I absolutely love every bit of your response, one of many reasons being that I love to have a peek into your marvellous and brightly-coloured mind. Thank you for everything, but especially for the honesty and kind support. Alison, you are always a very courageous person too, as is evident in this reply of yours and another today. Hardships have made you stronger and more beautiful inside and out. You are also a very wise person too. Everything you said makes total sense and I agree with it totally. In addition to what you said about hate, I think another very valid point is that hate hurts the hater infinitely more than the hated. Dark, I love your honesty and your kindness and compassion and your fairness. Whilst I understand that probably in most cases, there isn’t time – or a pause period – in the behaviour of a rabid dog, I would nevertheless, if at all possible, prefer to have the dog darted, and then euthanased by a caring vet – but I do understand what you are saying. Similarly, I would prefer to have had Osama Bin Laden put into solitary confinement for life with very harsh conditions, but again, I understand the situation, despite what some people seem to think. I do agree with you that for people who don’t obey the laws of the land or of humanity, there need to be enforcers. My son is an unpaid police reservist in his (ha ha) spare time, and both of us are very involved in our local Sector Policing Forum, and I am the chairperson of a Neighbourhood Watch and do night patrols, and we both are co-ordinators of eBlockwatch in the process of which, along with many other things, my son organises searches for missing people and I help search and I also attend to the admin of eBlockwatch – and I strongly believe in a system of punishment for criminals. I believe in attempts at rehabilitation - and I DON'T mean for Osama Bin Laden, but where there is a hope of rehabilitation - (not just for the sake of the perpetrators, but also for the benefit of society). I am highly honoured and heart-warmed that you would defend me as you said – and I would never stop you from doing that, and would certainly lean on and benefit from such fierce defence - but I must just say that I am tougher than I look and sound, and nobody will ever take any beliefs of mine away, any more than anyone could have done to those beliefs of Momma J. Thank you, Charly, for your kind response. I appreciate your fairness, support and honesty. Despite my dislike of war and killing, I do understand the situation, and in my poem I said that it was just for one tiny moment that I was saddened at the death of one human being, which, as you and many other have said, I am entitled to do. My apology was not because I believe I did anything wrong, but because I understood that I was not directly affected (except in the obvious way) by what he did, and there are many thousands who were far more directly affected, many of whom may be here, and I didn’t want to hurt them by what I said. Thank you, Balladeer, for that beautiful, wise and true quote from Martin Luther King Jr. Owl |
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OwlSA Member Rara Avis
since 2005-11-07
Posts 9347Durban, South Africa |
My friend, Yann, I thought I had replied to your response, but I see that somehow I didn't. Thank you for your very beautiful, honest, sensitive and heartfelt reply. It is much appreciated. Owl |
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