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Dark Poetry #5
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Part One:The King of the Dead.
| Dark Poetry #5 |
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Part One:The King of the Dead. |
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vampirelover Member
since 2009-05-17
Posts 74 |
I wandered through the deadening filthy streets just off St James’s busy thoroughfare. In every single worn-out face I see the same heart-breaking look of deep despair; which emanates from all their empty years of poverty, and its attendant fears; which seem to have no remedy or repair. Pondering on this matter as I walked I noticed there was a chapel near at hand; I could hear the voice of God’s Priest as he talked and thought that I would join that dwindling band. If I had known what dreadful fate was there awaiting me that night, I had despaired, and would have fled into the night unmanned. I entered that House of God with gentle care; quietly I sank into the wooden pew; slowly I began to be aware as my eyes became accustomed to the view that instead of Holy Patrons along the walls the statues there, were of creatures fell and tall. Horrific shapes looked down, upon us all. I tried to stand to leave that fearful place but my legs and arms seemed frozen where I was; I started to shake and my heart began to race in my chest; unable to move because I lost all strength, and fearing for my death I lay back still and tried to catch my breath, waiting for someone to lift that dreadful curse. Suddenly the Altar opened out and behind it the Most Holy Sanctuary. In enigmatic symbols, and without intermediary, a Vision was given to me: a World I saw of people black and white rushing through the streets by day and night. Next I saw a profane and unholy sight: a building there was, with inside bright and clean, a staff well-trained in uniforms of blue. Nowhere in there could dirt or dust be seen: immaculate, as if everything were new. And then I noticed one enormous room: an odour came from there, “like a breath from the tomb”. I had to enter; I knew it was my doom. Babies there were, little ones so small, some of them no bigger than a hand; only one thing in common had they all, that tiny, harmless, innocent little band: in that clinic room,(more like unto a crypt) from their mother’s womb they had been “untimely ripped” by some satanic, cruel, unholy hand. The nightmare Vision showed me all the pain suffered by each murdered little child as on a gigantic pair of scales it balanced all the suffering worldwide from all the wars and holocausts of men as though it were all happening again; and the scales then tipped towards the children’s side. From this horror I tore my eyes away. I trembled. Then the floor opened wide, and from below I heard a voice to say, “No longer can the Necromancer hide; He it is who peddles hate and vice.” But, replying, groaned the Necromancer twice, “Tis but the odour of the altar sacrifice.” The dreaded one( more spirit than a man ) ascended through the floor with ghastly noise as a wail of frightened children thus began: “He uses men and women as his toys”. With a scroll of evil laws to make his bed, and many glittering stars about his head. His true name is Dis, King of the Dead. |
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Teri Junior Member
since 2009-06-15
Posts 13Adelaide, Australia |
wow... great poem and deep meaning |
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vampirelover Member
since 2009-05-17
Posts 74 |
Thank you, Teri. |
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Def-init Member
since 2008-12-03
Posts 186Toronto, Canada |
Nice very slick. I like the story you have in this piece, Vamp. I would have to say this is my fav piece by you so far. - If I cant bend Heaven, I shall move Hell - |
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Suncleaver Member
since 2009-01-18
Posts 481Stafford England |
This is dangerous territory. My best and most beloved friend was sexually abused as a child, and has severe scarring of the womb. when she became pregnant, they called it a 'miracle', even though they gave her a seventy-five per cent chance of hemmorhaging on the table if she kept the child. She took the pill. Her boyfriend dumped her, for the corpse of his rotting God. Her family treat her with disdain. But the real 'miracle' is that science, and liberal legislation, have given me a best friend to hold and love. People who read from books of judgements will often find their names written in them in centuries to come. |
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vampirelover Member
since 2009-05-17
Posts 74 |
I am moved by you experiences, and this is indeed a "hard case". But as has often been said, hard cases don't make good laws.Any decent person would feel pity for your friend, but we must also feel pity for the many millions of innocent babies who are tortured and murdered every year.Would you sacrifice a born person to save your friend? If not why sacrifice an unborn person? Are we not all equal? |
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Suncleaver Member
since 2009-01-18
Posts 481Stafford England |
I would stand atop a mountain of skulls for the friend who's loved and supported me for years. That's what it boils down to in raw human feeling. But as far as enlightened science and philosophy goes, it is generally accepted that human life and its value begins at the acquisition of sentience, which is not something you are born with. Human minds, when fully developed, have the capacity for sentience, but it is formed by intimate social and emotional interaction. It is not a divine gift. I have nothing but absolute scorn, hatred, and disdain for the so-called received wisdom, divine truths, and moral absolutes which have held mankind in the shackles of an imagined perdition for centuries. But, if I must present my case in that particular court, then the same people who tout the words 'Thou shalt not kill' must also remember that the bible states that life begins at breath. I apologise for my ire at what is essentially a work of art. But I will always place my thumb on the side of the scales where real, thinking, feeling, people bleed, suffer, weep, and die, than the side where one word is law to crush the meek. |
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vampirelover Member
since 2009-05-17
Posts 74 |
Dear Suncleaver, please don't apologise for your strong feelings; I too feel very strongly about this issue, and as long as we don't descend to insulting each other, we are surely both entitled to our views. I feel however that I must take issue with a number of the points you raise: 1) As for standing up for your friend, that is only natural, but your obligatons to a friend are, with the geatest of respect, of no philosophical relevance when it comes to discussing moral norms. 2)"raw human feeling" is a dangerous business. Surely you would agree that we must get beyond being at the mercy of our feelings. A woman may have "raw human feelings" for a child abuser; that doesn't justify her defending him from the law. 3)You state " it is generally accepted that human life and its value begins at the acquisition of sentience, which is not something you are born with". Apart from the fact that this statement is demonstrably untrue(there is no generally accepted view regarding the beginnings of human life) are you really claiming that a new born baby is not human? Is killing the newly born acceptable to you? Surely not. 4)You pour scorn on "moral absolutes" but you are hanging yourself with your own petard. If there are no moral asolutes where does your indignation about them come from? You must believe that you are in possession of the truth to feel so indignant. What is what you call "the truth" if not an absolute? 5)It is unwise for a non-believer to quote the Bible. Taking quotations out of context is not a good idea. The Bible is an ancient and complex text. In the original language it states "Thou shalt do no murder", which is rather different.There are no dogmatic statements in the Bible regarding the beginning of human life. 6) As for crushing the meek, why does this not apply in your view to the tiny human beings who are tortured and murdered in their millions every year? Pretending they are not human is what the white slavers used to do with black people.Are not aborted babies a persecuted minority like them? 7)Babies are also "real, thinking, feeling, people [who]bleed, suffer, weep, and die." 8) I would remind you that cases like that of your poor friend are quite rare. The vast majority of babies are aborted for the most trivial of reasons. |
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Suncleaver Member
since 2009-01-18
Posts 481Stafford England |
I fear my personal attachment to this issue is going to cloud my judgement. So I will quit the field on these points. Liberal legislation allows for choice and margin of error. Who are politicians, gods, and hierophants to tell people what to do with their own bodies? Conservative legislation has no margin of error, and thus people will fall through the gaps, and be crushed between the gears. That is evil. I will use the example of a court of law. In most western courts, a man must be proven guilty beyond all reasonable doubt in order to be convicted. If this same philosophy is transferred to the legislation regarding abortion, then the legislation must be liberal as long as there is any possibility of error, or any reasonable amount of cases that don't fit the sockets. I am very glad to say that, at least in Europe, dogmatism is slowly being driven into the sea. The numbers of those who decry human freedom for the gilded cage of sanctity are winnowed with every passing generation through the power of education. One step at a time, slowly but surely, the west is becoming truly free. |
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vampirelover Member
since 2009-05-17
Posts 74 |
1) “I fear my personal attachment to this issue is going to cloud my judgement. So I will quit the field on these points.” By stating this you are avoiding the issue on the eight points I have made; yet you continue to make further points. Thus you want to have your cake and eat it too!! I don’t wish to be vulgar, but the Americans have a saying, “Crap or get off the pot.” 2) “Who are politicians, gods, and hierophants to tell people what to do with their own bodies?” There are two points here: Firstly, Are you suggesting that we have a society with no laws or courts or policemen ? If you accept these things in other matters, why make an exception in the case of child murder? Secondly, it is not women’s bodies that are being destroyed; it is their babies who are being murdered, and someone has to protect them. 3) Your argument grows more confused. There is no valid comparison between what you call “conservative legislation” and the fact that in Western courts a man is considered innocent until proven guilty. This is just thrown in to cloud the issue. 4) “legislation must be liberal as long as there is any possibility of error”. Why on earth do you feel that liberal legislation is more likely to be free from error?? This is called “begging the question”. And why “dogmatism” for those views you don’t agree with, and not for your views? You have provided no evidence to demonstrate that anti-abortion views are dogmatism. 5) “The numbers of those who decry human freedom for the gilded cage of sanctity are winnowed with every passing generation through the power of education.” This is very poetical, but is a (rather vacuous) statement, NOT evidence. By the way, it is NOT education that has changed minds on abortion, but the vast amount of propaganda. Despite huge amounts of government money spent on it, the recent evidence suggests the tide may be turning. 6) “One step at a time, slowly but surely, the west is becoming truly free.” I don’t think that the 50,000,000 babies who are killed every year would agree with you, if they had a voice. |
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Def-init Member
since 2008-12-03
Posts 186Toronto, Canada |
Woah. These views are really strong on both parts. "Firstly, Are you suggesting that we have a society with no laws or courts or policemen?" This has no place. All I see is drama here and trying to get under Suncleaver's skin. Liberal Legislation and Conservative Legislation are both at risk of making wrong choices. Picking one or the other will not stop that. "Secondly, it is not woman's bodies that are being destroyed; it is their babies who are being murdered, and someone has to protect them." If this is about the long debate of abortion. The baby isn't a baby until later in development. An abortion is absolutely the parents right. This goes back as far as Science vs Religion. and sorry to say Science has been winning for many years now. Less and less are believing in religion as more turn to science. "it is NOT education that has changed minds on abortion, but the vast amount of propaganda" This is an incorrect view. While propaganda has a fair amount to do with it. Your belief in the ignorance of the vast majority of the population is staggering. It also leads me to believe you have a strong religious view on matters like this. "I don’t think that the 50,000,000 babies who are killed every year would agree with you, if they had a voice." That's just it. the 50,000,000 babies a year that are aborted don't have a voice they don't have a mind. They are not babies yet. Saying that an abortion is murder is the same as saying when you wash your hands and kill all the lower celled organisms, that is murder. All that statement did was add a little drama to your opinion, Drama that has no place if your having a debate. "I will always place my thumb on the side of the scales where real, thinking, feeling, people bleed, suffer, weep, and die, than the side where one word is law to crush the meek." "“The numbers of those who decry human freedom for the gilded cage of sanctity are winnowed with every passing generation through the power of education.”" Couldn't have said it better myself, Cleaver! Just my 2 cents on some of the matters talked about here, on what was a good piece of poetry. - If I cant bend Heaven, I shall move Hell - |
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vampirelover Member
since 2009-05-17
Posts 74 |
“This has no place.” Whatever do you mean by that? Of course it has a place! It is a reasoned response to suncleaver’s implied statement that politicians have no right to tell people what to do! “All I see is drama here and trying to get under Suncleaver's skin”: Emotive statement without evidence and therefore pointless. “Liberal Legislation and Conservative Legislation are both at risk of making wrong choices. Picking one or the other will not stop that” Exactly; but why tell me? I never claimed it would. “The baby isn't a baby until later in development. An abortion is absolutely the parents right.” Why? Because you say so?? NO EVIDENCE!! “Science has been winning for many years now. Less and less are believing in religion as more turn to science.”. This is a common misconception. Where is your evidence? “This is an incorrect view. While propaganda has a fair amount to do with it”. Isn’t there a contradiction inherent in this statement?? “Saying that an abortion is murder is the same as saying when you wash your hands and kill all the lower celled organisms, that is murder”. So are you claiming that an unborn child is a “lower-celled organism??? At what point does it become human? Where is your evidence for these outlandish claims?? Abortion is legal up to the moment of birth. Are you suggesting that the baby becomes human in a few seconds?? I mean no disrespect, my friend, and I thank you for your kind words about my poetry. However, if you wish to join a debate you must join it armed with the tools of the trade. I have made fourteen points; I suggest you either give up or be prepared to answer all of my fourteen points; that is the way debates are conducted; not with selective answers and assertions without evidence. |
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Def-init Member
since 2008-12-03
Posts 186Toronto, Canada |
“This has no place.” Whatever do you mean by that? Of course it has a place! It is a reasoned response to suncleaver’s implied statement that politicians have no right to tell people what to do! This doesn’t have a place because suncleaver didn’t intend it that. Nowhere did he imply ""Firstly, are you suggesting that we have a society with no laws or courts or policemen?"" that in anyway. So again there is no place for your statement. so again “All I see is drama here and trying to get under Suncleaver's skin” You should learn to control yourself in a debate. Never allow emotion to guide what your gonna type. “Liberal Legislation and Conservative Legislation are both at risk of making wrong choices. Picking one or the other will not stop that” I was agreeing with you...Please do try and keep up in this conversation. “The baby isn't a baby until later in development. An abortion is absolutely the parents right.” Why isn’t it? BECAUSE YOU say so?? I will go with the fact that most doctors agree with what I have said. While it is not everyone. They have more experience and knowledge in this area then we do. “Science has been winning for many years now. Less and less are believing in religion as more turn to science.” This is a common misconception. Where is your evidence? Where is yours? you speak about evidence when you have none. Mine I see it every day. long time friends that believed and now don’t. More and more jokes are being made about the clergy from movies to novels. It is all right in people’s faces all the time. I see less and less people in church Compared to when I was a child. (Yes I did go to church from time to time. My ex was religious) Took me no time at all to change her views on the matter. So if I can change peoples input on a matter that is so strong and has been taught into them since pretty much birth, with just common sense. That to me means the grasp of religion is weakening. Again where is your evidence? ROFL “This is an incorrect view. While propaganda has a fair amount to do with it”. Isn’t there a contradiction inherent in this statement?? Nope, no contradiction here. You believed propaganda was the entire force responsible. I do not. Care to revise your question? “Saying that an abortion is murder is the same as saying when you wash your hands and kill all the lower celled organisms, that is murder”. Abortion is legal up to the moment of birth. Are you suggesting that the baby becomes human in a few seconds?? sigh.... Abortion is legal till 3mths. Again please do try and at least get some facts when you debate with people. After that period of time I do believe the fetus is now a human. So are you claiming that an unborn child is a “lower-celled organism??? At what point does it become human? Where is your evidence for these outlandish claims?? Now without having to teach you Biology, I will talk in lamens terms so you can understand. You have a sperm cell and an egg. 2 cells merge and start replicating. There are lower celled organisms that start off with more cells then that. This is a good comparison because they are on equal terms. They are both not human and have similar amounts of cells. Hopefully that answers your question. Are you keeping up? Good. I put as much "EVIDENCE" into what I said as you have. All you have added is hearsay and YOUR opinion on how things work. Sorry to say but "Crap or get off the pot".Cause thus far. Your opinion on these matters has been lackluster and void of substance. Till next time, "friend". PSST: Your tools are broken. Might want to get a new set!! - If I cant bend Heaven, I shall move Hell - [This message has been edited by Def-init (08-05-2009 10:47 AM).] |
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vampirelover Member
since 2009-05-17
Posts 74 |
I suppose that abuse is the last refuge of the man with a poor argument. I shan’t abuse you in the same way. I shall limit myself to pointing out (yet again) your basic errors of logic, and then I doubt whether I’ll bother to reply to your reply. This is a waste of time. I would remind you that all I did was write a poem, not a treatise on moral philosophy. As such I don’t need to supply evidence for my poem. You and your friend have attacked my views and I have rightly challenged you to supply evidence. You have both failed to do this and have failed to deal with my many numbered points. You are plainly not used to serious debate and are clearly in over your head. It’s your own fault as no-one asked you to do this. “This doesn’t have a place because suncleaver didn’t intend it that”. On the contrary he plainly did, as he claimed with his rhetorical question that politicians had no right to pass laws concerning the killing of unborn children. My point was there was no obvious reason why this should apply to abortion and not to any other crime. “Never allow emotion to guide what your gonna type.” I think a course in the English language might be appropriate. “I was agreeing with you”. What you actually wrote was, “Liberal Legislation and Conservative Legislation are both at risk of making wrong choices. Picking one or the other will not stop that”. The idea in a debate is to deal with points of DISagreement…that is why it’s called a debate. “I will go with the fact that most doctors agree with what I have said.” Again, no evidence. How do you know what most doctors believe? Also, this is what philosophers call, “The argument from authority”. Even if it IS what they believe, especially since there is so much disagreement about these matters, you cannot know for a fact that this is true. “Where is yours? you speak about evidence when you have none. Mine I see it every day. long time friends that believed and now don’t. More and more jokes are being made about the clergy from movies to novels. It is all right in people’s faces all the time. I see less and less people in church Compared to when I was a child. (Yes I did go to church from time to time. My ex was religious) Took me no time at all to change her views on the matter. So if I can change peoples input on a matter that is so strong and has been taught into them since pretty much birth, with just common sense. That to me means the grasp of religion is weakening.” This is what is known as anecdotal evidence, and has no place in serious debate. Also, you are confusing religion with church-going. “You believed propaganda was the entire force responsible. I do not. Care to revise your question?” I said nothing of the sort. “Now without having to teach you Biology, I will talk in lamens [sic] terms so you can understand.[ I can understand that you cannot spell “layman’s” lol] You have a sperm cell and an egg. 2 cells merge and start replicating. There are lower celled organisms that start off with more cells then that. This is a good comparison because they are on equal terms. They are both not human and have similar amounts of cells. Hopefully that answers your question. Are you keeping up? Good.” Arrogant nonsense. Your knowledge even of biology is pathetic. Tell me, at what precise point in its development does a foetus become human? Ever hear of Sorites’ paradox? Google it !! “Your opinion on these matters has been lackluster and void of substance.” Why then are you unable to answer the rest of my fourteen points? I suggest you buy a copy of an elementary textbook of philosophy and logic, and come back in a year or so; then you might be a more worthy debating partner. I will leave it to whoever reads this “debate” to decide who has produced the more logical arguments. No doubt you will want the last word: Be my guest. Arguing with the ignorant is tiring. |
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Def-init Member
since 2008-12-03
Posts 186Toronto, Canada |
"I suppose that abuse is the last refuge of the man with a poor argument." Sexism from a woman...Wow this is new. Great way to start your argument....ROFL How does it feel to be a "Spiteful Woman" heh. "No doubt you will want the last word: Be my guest. Arguing with the ignorant is tiring." So by saying that I take it you want to win eh? So no matter what I say, you try to come off as the victor? lol! The response of a true forum troll. Doesn't it suck to be so shallow? Well there yeah go you win. Now you don’t have to respond with your trivial logic any longer. But again I will speak my 2 cents and hopefully you will finally understand. "I would remind you that all I did was write a poem, not a treatise on moral philosophy. As such I don’t need to supply evidence for my poem. You and your friend have attacked my views and I have rightly challenged you to supply evidence. You have both failed to do this and have failed to deal with my many numbered points. You are plainly not used to serious debate and are clearly in over your head. It’s your own fault as no-one asked you to do this." You did write a poem. For EVERYONE to read and comment on.... So there is your error in logic #1. Cause you asked me to comment by posting here. I supply my opinion and the evidence I find relevant. But as it seems with your thick head that if someone doesn’t agree with you. You have to take it to the next step. What you actually wrote was, “Liberal Legislation and Conservative Legislation are both at risk of making wrong choices. Picking one or the other will not stop that”. The idea in a debate is to deal with points of Disagreement…that is why it’s called a debate. I never picked a side. I read what you both wrote down and made my point. That seemed to have flown right over your head. “I will go with the fact that most doctors agree with what I have said.” Again, no evidence. How do you know what most doctors believe? Also, this is what philosophers call, “The argument from authority”. Even if it IS what they believe, especially since there is so much disagreement about these matters, you cannot know for a fact that this is true. No one can ever know 100% what is fact and what isn’t. You go with what is in front of you at the time of question. I will take the advice and opinion of a trained medical person over yours any day. "Again, no evidence. How do you know what most doctors believe?" How do you know they don’t believe? Chicken or the egg. "Arrogant nonsense. Your knowledge even of biology is pathetic. Tell me, at what precise point in its development does a fetus become human? Ever hear of Sorites’ paradox? Google it !! " If you don’t intend on reading this post. or have decided not to post again....Why ask a question?... wow your really starting to fall apart here. Are you a liar now to? Again you want a lesson in biology? for someone that doesn’t know a lot as you claim I don’t. You seem to want to ask me questions about it... lol Error in your logic yet again. Well I answered your points. It isn’t my fault that your third grade education shows how little you know about the subjects you speak of. I like how you pointed out my spelling error. It is great since I had to correct quite a few of yours. Example ***"Dear Suncleaver, please don't 'apologise' for your.. its apologize but your 'obligatons' to a friend are it's obligations.... the 'geatest' of respect, of no philosophical.. no idea what you ment. Maybe you were trying for 'greatest'?" *** “at what precise point in its development does a foetus become human” Its FETUS!!! Might want to go back and change your stuff before you point out spelling. "“You believed propaganda was the entire force responsible. I do not. Care to revise your question?” I said nothing of the sort." lol please go back and re-read what you posted lol. This is the best part...! " will leave it to whoever reads this “debate” to decide who has produced the more logical arguments. No doubt you will want the last word: Be my guest. Arguing with the ignorant is tiring." For someone that speaks about debates... you sure do like to run from them. Arguing with the ignorant? We are arguing? I thought this was a debate? Arguing gives them impression your emotions are getting the better of you. A debate is a calm discussion. if you can't understand the difference between the reasonable analyses of debate and arguing...You really won’t get much further then assistant fry-cook in life. "I suggest you buy a copy of an elementary textbook of philosophy and logic, and come back in a year or so; then you might be a more worthy debating partner." Well considering they don’t teach philosophy in elementary school that request might be a hard one to fulfill. ROFLMAO! Again it seems you are up way past your bedtime here, little lady! I'm not being rude. You're knowledge here is just insignificant. But please do reply again. I love reading your epic failures. I know you want to!! Your just the type that can’t let things go! - If I cant bend Heaven, I shall move Hell - [This message has been edited by Def-init (08-06-2009 02:39 PM).] |
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dickpoetry Member
since 2009-09-30
Posts 89 |
I wandered through the deadening filthy streets just off St James’s busy thoroughfare. In every single worn-out face I see the same heart-breaking look of deep despair; a nod to William's London |
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dickpoetry Member
since 2009-09-30
Posts 89 |
finally got a chance to read the entire poem. you really do share with blake his utter contempt for the church. good poem. |
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vampirelover Member
since 2009-05-17
Posts 74 |
Dear dick poetry: I thank you for your kind comments but I must point out that I do not have contempt for the Church, though I am aware of her faults.The poem is based upon James Thomson's "The City of Dreadful Night" and uses the image of the Church merely as a vehicle. This part of the poem is aimed mainly at that evil man, Obama. |
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