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Clockwork_Orange
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0 posted 2008-03-16 11:17 AM


i posted this on a poem that had alot of feedback about religion and i thought id share this. im not trying to make anyone mad or upset, im just trying to think logically here.


here guys think about this.


if God is almighty, then could he make an unmovable boulder?

because if the boulder is unmovable, then God wouldnt be able to move it.

and if he could move it, then the boulder wouldnt be unmovable, which would mean God wasnt almighty

© Copyright 2008 Bryan Lucas - All Rights Reserved
justanotherstorm
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1 posted 2008-03-16 05:55 PM


thats a good question but we can make up all kind of questions like this but its GOD i mean GOD  He is almighty and it says it in the WORD/BIBLE oh and he also said He hated sin in the BIBLE too for the person who asked that lemme find it
well yea good question He would probly make the boulder unmovable for us humans

hiddensmiles
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2 posted 2008-03-16 06:44 PM


he would make it unmovable for humans
Clockwork_Orange
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3 posted 2008-03-16 07:23 PM


people, think about this for a minute, i didnt ask if humans could move it or not. i asked  that if God made an unmovable boulder, could he move it, humans are irrelevent here.

and the bible was written by man. not God, even though its suposed to be the word of God, its still man made and in my opinion lacks credibility.

(and my opinion is mine, not yours, i understand this.)

Grinch
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Whoville
4 posted 2008-03-16 07:56 PM



I thought for a whole minute and came up with this.

A god couldn’t create an unmovable object and exist at the same time in the same place.

As I understand it any object can be moved given sufficient force, to create a totally unmovable object the would be god would need to add to it all forces including gravity and himself. Only an object of infinite mass such as a singularity would get anywhere near the concept of unmovable object and singularities have what you might call a unique property in that they’re.. well unique, or singular.


Clockwork_Orange
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5 posted 2008-03-16 08:33 PM


and if the being could put himself into an object, then wouldnt that object then have life as well? and if he was to add himself including gravity making an object of imeasurable size and mass, then where could such an object exist? seeing as how space and time never alow one object to remain still at any one time...space is always suposedly moving us closer to other forms of mass, yet farther away through the tangent of time. i agree that they could not exist in the same place at the same time, or even exist together at all, if a god exists. but to be sure of that is a question never solved.
hunnie_girl
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6 posted 2008-03-16 11:01 PM


wow I actually agree.. this is a very good point you make CO
Krysti

rebelangelv
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7 posted 2008-03-17 10:54 PM


i replied my thoughts to this on my poem STanding up for Gays with God so yea..lol

only a vampire can love you forever.
forbidden to remember, terrified to forget

Grinch
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Whoville
8 posted 2008-03-18 02:47 PM



quote:
and if the being could put himself into an object, then wouldnt that object then have life as well?


No, and besides life isn’t part of your question it was about a god and his\her ability to create then move an unmovable boulder. To create such a boulder you would need to create a singularity of infinite mass, god would have to be in that singularity, a part of the unmovable boulder. Nothing else would exist except the unmovable boulder.

When was the last time you saw an ordinary boulder move itself, let alone an unmovable boulder.


Clockwork_Orange
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9 posted 2008-03-18 08:20 PM


but if nothing else existed exept the boulder, where would such a boulder reside?
Grinch
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Whoville
10 posted 2008-03-19 03:01 PM



Everywhere

Clockwork_Orange
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11 posted 2008-03-20 05:03 PM


but everywhere isnt a respectable answer. if the boulder could reside 'everywhere'  then no space would exist, therefor nothing would exist.
Grinch
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Whoville
12 posted 2008-03-20 06:51 PM



Except the boulder - the boulder would be a singularity - everything squeezed into one boulder shaped package, time, gravity, space..everything.

Everywhere is within the boulder and the boulder is everywhere.


XxForever.BrokenxX
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13 posted 2008-03-25 11:15 PM


well here's a question for all of you:

How come everyone can believe in angels and demonds, but it's so hard to believe in a God??

  think about it.

{&}Love*liesOfBeauty~[NowColdInMyHand]
{`~Emily~`}

Clockwork_Orange
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14 posted 2008-03-26 06:45 AM


i couldnt tell you because i dont believe in either.
Earl Robertson
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15 posted 2008-03-26 08:20 PM


This is a consept, like time, eternity, life after death ect. which is immpossible for us to wrap our totaly mortal brains around.

Heres my belief, God created the laws of science as we know them and under those laws it is completely impossible to create an immovable boulder. (see above)

However, (you knew that was coming didn't you) it is probable that God could create a new set of rules to apply to a new space (galaxy, universe w/e)by which laws said boulder could not be moved. (unless all laws of science were reversed which I'm pretty sure God would not do)

Simpler consept, God has said he is bound by his word; because if he is not perfect than he cannot be God and if he is perfect he cannot lie. Therefore he could create a boulder which was immovable to anyone other than himself and then promise that it would never be moved.
Thus if he moved it he would cease to be God and perhaps he would even be incabable of moving it due to that.

Ultimatly this is a pointless discussion because you Mr Orange do not believe in God at all. You are looking for a reason to continue your disbelief and believe me I've been there.
It all comes down to whether God exists and has prophets, I can't find any evidence against it, but that wont stop people from trying b/c they want to die and be dead.

You don't want there to be a God.

"Be Strong and Always Remember what made you you." Earl

"Ooo!!! Ooo!! I know! I know! um...he he" Earl
(Yes I am crazy)

Clockwork_Orange
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16 posted 2008-03-26 08:36 PM


i dont want there NOT to be a god, i just cant grasp the concept as believable. im just not into the whole religion thing.

im an agnostic. i dont doubt the existence of a higher power, but i just dont know what it is. i dont think its a single construct or even any construct of any kind at all. i dont know what the after life beholds. maybe we just die and its over...eternal blackness and your mind is just...gone.


shattered-smiles
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17 posted 2008-03-26 09:05 PM


There is a higher power.  I am in Alateen because my mom is an alcoholic.  In Alatenn, we are taught that there is a higher power.  No matter what anybody thinks, my opinion is, that higher power is God Himself and He is Almighty no matter what anyone thinks.  Whether you're all for Him or totally against Him.  Everyone has their own opinions.

TJ

So cut me into pieces and tape me into something beautiful...

Earl Robertson
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18 posted 2008-03-26 09:23 PM


And why Mr Orange is it so unbelievable?
(If you can give me one good reason you will have done better than I could in two years of depression)

"Be Strong and Always Remember what made you you." Earl

"Ooo!!! Ooo!! I know! I know! um...he he" Earl
(Yes I am crazy)

Grinch
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Whoville
19 posted 2008-03-27 01:33 PM



quote:
How come everyone can believe in angels and demonds, but it's so hard to believe in a God??


Everyone doesn’t believe in angels and demons.

I for instance don’t believe that angels, demons, or gods exist. Why? Because there is no clear evidence that any of them exist. You could argue that there’s no clear evidence that they don’t exist either but that’s true of almost anything you can imagine, if you accept angels, demons or gods on that basis you have to accept pixies, trolls and fairies with the same conviction.

Do you believe in fairies?


Earl Robertson
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20 posted 2008-03-27 01:47 PM


Ah Grinch...there is evidence, great evidence. More than that pure intelligence! I Know that God lives that Jesus Christ was his only begotten son and that I am a child of God!
My expirence has taught me nothing at all if it has not taught me that I have a Savior! And if it all a lie it is the single most benefiecial lie in the history of mankind and more pertainatly in my life.
I do not know where I would be if it werent for this, but it would not be good and I might be dead!
Pray, look for God with real intent and you will find him. You might not like what he asks of you at first but take it from somone who knows: There is SO much more, and life for me would not be life without Him!
I thank God every day for this testimony, And you think about it, pray about it.

"Be Strong and Always Remember what made you you." Earl

"Ooo!!! Ooo!! I know! I know! um...he he" Earl
(Yes I am crazy)

Grinch
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Whoville
21 posted 2008-03-27 04:35 PM


quote:
Ah Grinch...there is evidence, great evidence.


There is no evidence either way, if there were your faith would be fact or simply redundant.

You can believe what you like but belief isn't evidence, you cannot believe something into existance.



Clockwork_Orange
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22 posted 2008-03-27 05:02 PM


i agree with grinch on this one. i have had no real proof that they exist. ive never seen a sign from god, an angel, or a demon. its hard to proof something exits if there are no real evidence. you cant go by the bible because it was written by man.

your entitled to your own oppinion and im keeping mine.

shattered-smiles
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23 posted 2008-03-27 05:22 PM


I for one, believe that all angels, demons and God exists.  I have demons inside of me and I know that God can make them go away.  These demons affect my mind and my actions and, well, it's confusing to understand.  Anyway, God can and will get rid of those demons in me and if anyone I know in person, reads this, I'm denying every single thing I just said.

TJ

So cut me into pieces and tape me into something beautiful...

fromme2U
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24 posted 2008-03-27 07:09 PM


last comment was funny
Clockwork_Orange
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25 posted 2008-03-27 07:20 PM


why hide what you believe? its pointless. if your amshamed of what you believe,then your just prooving your ashamed of yourself.
Earl Robertson
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26 posted 2008-03-27 07:21 PM


You've never seen an angel
So of course they can't exist
But I live in the country
And this irony can't resist

For I have never seen a shark
Only books written by man
And a movie name of Jaws
Where men from a monster ran

I have never seen a shark
Would you say that they exist?
Can you not trust other men?
Why does your mind resist?

"Be Strong and Always Remember what made you you." Earl

"Ooo!!! Ooo!! I know! I know! um...he he" Earl
(Yes I am crazy)

shattered-smiles
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27 posted 2008-03-27 09:01 PM


I know I shouldn't hide what I am but I do.  I can't help it.  I don't want my friends to know that I'm filled with things.  I won't be soon though cause God's going to get them out.  I'm sure about that.  I have people helping me yet too.

TJ

So cut me into pieces and tape me into something beautiful...

shattered-smiles
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28 posted 2008-03-27 09:05 PM


But God is God.  He can do anything.  He can do the impossible.  Of course nothing is impossible with God.  He is Almighty no matter what and I'll keep saying that.  I want to see all of you guys in heaven but I can only tell you about Jesus and how he died for our sins.  I can't force you to believe it.  If you ever want to believe, all you need to do is say something.  

TJ

So cut me into pieces and tape me into something beautiful...

shattered-smiles
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29 posted 2008-03-27 09:12 PM


Sorry to be turning this whole thing into a sermon, but Jesus carried yours and all the peoples pain in the world.  Imagine your pain you are feeling right now.  Multiplied by billions.  Jesus carried that all for us.  Sure, there are the questions of "Why does God let planes crash into buildings?  Why is there sickness in the world and why isn't He stopping it?"  When God created humans, He gave us free will.  Free will changes everything.  If you are allergic to milk but eat that bowl of ice cream because it was too hard to resist, you will get sick.  Think before you blame God for letting you be sick.  He didn't let you be sick.  He gave you free will and with that will, you made your own choice.  Your choice affected how you felt later on in life.  It's your own choice, but I would love to see you in heaven.  

TJ

So cut me into pieces and tape me into something beautiful...

hiddensmiles
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30 posted 2008-03-28 12:10 PM


shattered-smiles: great point!! and i agree with everything you just said. and i am hopeing the same things!!!!
Clockwork_Orange
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31 posted 2008-03-28 08:35 AM


Earl, sharks exist. ok? even though you havnt seen one and you probably never will, we can go to places all over that have there reamain on display. or just go to sea world or even the zoo. they have sharks on display all the time.
Earl Robertson
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32 posted 2008-03-28 10:13 AM


You can go places with religous artifacts to.
You can feel the spirit the Holy Ghost, and it's a real feeling, not just phychology as you might say! I felt it and it changed my life.
If thats not enough for you, you can read and hear the testimonys of those who have seen angels! For that we turn to the Scriptures, as you trust the scientests who do research, I trust the prophets. As you trust the remains (easily faked these days by the way) I trust the Holy Ghost.
By the power of the Holy Ghost I can safly say that I Know that Jesus is and was the Christ my literal redeemer! That God, my Father lives and that we have prophets on the Earth today!
The Prophet Joseph Smith said "...this is the testimony last of all which we give of him; that he lives! For we SAW him even on the right hand of God..."
Paul testified of his vison to King Aggripa, every one of the aposles of Jesus testified again and again, the list goes on and on and every one of those men I just mentioned died for their testimony! Died, and lived hard lives.

"Be Strong and Always Remember what made you you." Earl

"Ooo!!! Ooo!! I know! I know! um...he he" Earl
(Yes I am crazy)

Clockwork_Orange
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33 posted 2008-03-28 04:37 PM


have you met paul? have you actually ever talked to him? no. because hes dead. and the only way you know his name is from what MAN has written about him.
shattered-smiles
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34 posted 2008-03-28 05:23 PM


God put those those words into man's pen and they wrote it down for Him.

TJ

So cut me into pieces and tape me into something beautiful...

shattered-smiles
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35 posted 2008-03-28 05:32 PM


The people who wrote the Bible were disciples of God.  They did whatever they needed to do for Him.  True, the Bible was written by man and not God but God put words into man's mouth and pen and man wrote them down.  It doesn't have to be God that wrote the Bible.  It just needs to be His words.

TJ

So cut me into pieces and tape me into something beautiful...

Falling rain
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36 posted 2008-03-28 09:07 PM


by almighty what do you mean? strength? wisdom? faith? a mixture of the three? this is all on opinion and believe. depending if believe in this. i on my behave i do believe and that i say the God is almighty in whatever he shall do...

XxZachXx

"What did you think I ment?"

haha yes im sort of crazy deep down inside. lol!!



shattered-smiles
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37 posted 2008-03-28 10:49 PM


By Almighty I mean anything and everything.  Strength, power, wisdom, care, love, faith and honour.  God is God and your opinion can vary from different questions, statements and others opinions as well as your own.  I'm just saying what I believe and other people on here are allowed to do as well.  It's the opinion that matters and where your faith is.  Not aobut who is saying it or what they are saying.  I hope you guys can all understand what I'm trying to say here.  Tell me if you don't and then I'll explain it a little clearer.

TJ

So cut me into pieces and tape me into something beautiful...

Earl Robertson
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38 posted 2008-03-29 12:01 PM


Thank you TJ!!

Yes CO I have never met Paul. But be more specific, which MAN wrote about Paul? Whos writing have I seen? Whos letters are included in the Bible? Who wrote Acts?

Think about it, I have his words and testimony just as you have mine. It would be foolish to say that said words have not been altered in the anals of time, but it would be equaly foolish to say that Paul didn't write them! It would be foolish to suggest that Saul scourge of the Christains did not die in the end for his faith in Jesus Christ. (in case you don't know the story Saul and Paul are the same person)
And if you do wish to disprove Paul, I have dozons upon dozons of Martyrs (martyrs only) who saw visions, Angels and God! These are people who died for their faith, died for their knowledge of God!
How can you say there is no evidence, with so many wittnesses and a sun that rises every day?

"Be Strong and Always Remember what made you you." Earl

"Ooo!!! Ooo!! I know! I know! um...he he" Earl
(Yes I am crazy)

Grinch
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Whoville
39 posted 2008-03-29 06:40 AM



quote:
How can you say there is no evidence


Perhaps because there is no evidence.

There is no evidence that Paul wrote anything at all, even if there were there is no evidence to suggest that we should believe him. He could have been as mad as worms for all we know and that’s true of all the other authorities you care to mention.

If you want to believe in god fine, feel free, but insisting that you have evidence to substantiate your belief, beyond the evidence of your belief and the belief of others, is simply a delusion.

There is no evidence one way or the other that god, angels, demons, fairies, trolls, pixies and unicorns exist, whether you care to believe in any of them is nothing more than a personal choice.


shattered-smiles
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40 posted 2008-03-29 10:41 AM


But there is evidence.  When you're driving to the store to get your groceries, somewhere in the world there is a miracle happening.  Miracle's are caused by God.  I know of a 9 year old boy who was in the hospital because his appendix had burst.  He had faith in God but it started to waver.  The doctors had been trying everything they could but the appendix had burst before they could get to it and now there were toxins in this little boys body.  They all assumed he was going to die.  The next morning, the doctor came in and he was going to tell the little boy he didn't have a very good chance of living.  The second the doctor walked in the room, the little boy said to the doctor "I'm healed."  The doctor said, "well that's impossible!  Nothing could ever heal you from this, you are going to die."  The little boy kept saying over and over again that by the grace of God, he was healed.  The doctor wanted proof so he checked all of his charts and all of the scanners and sure enough, the little boy had not one trace of a toxin in his body.  The doctor had tears flowing down his cheeks when he said, "You're healed."  Everyone started crying and I know why that boy had been healed.  There was a big prayer chain going around the town in all the churches and homes.  We had prayed for days nonstop and at the end of our praying, God had performed a miracle.  That boy is now up and walking and playing with no toxins in him at all.  Now you read this story and tell me that isn't evidence that God doesn't exist.

TJ

So cut me into pieces and tape me into something beautiful...

Grinch
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Whoville
41 posted 2008-03-29 11:11 AM



There is no evidence that god exists.

People make recoveries everyday from seemingly life threatening situations even without the supposed power of prayer and a greater number sadly don’t. If I were to accept the survivors who are prayed for as evidence then you have to accept those that are prayed for yet die as counter evidence.

With prayers or without prayers people live and people die, that isn’t evidence for or against the existence of god it’s just evidence of mans mortality.

shattered-smiles
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42 posted 2008-03-29 03:44 PM


You can believe what you want to believe.  I believe that God exists and my beliefs are going to stay that way.  The reason people die and live is because of man's free will like I said before.  If we didn't have free will, our lives would suck.  They really would.  God gave us free will for our lives to be better.  He gave us that free will and we can choose to use it or abuse it.  It's all about choices.

TJ

So cut me into pieces and tape me into something beautiful...

Grinch
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Whoville
43 posted 2008-03-29 04:13 PM


It’s definitely all about choices - you choose to believe in a god and I don’t.

However neither of us can prove or disprove that a god exists based on any tangible and irrefutable evidence.

quote:
God gave us free will for our lives to be better


Perhaps he did, but he could only do that if he exists and we don’t actually know that he does because there’s no proof either way. You can hope that god gave us free will, you can believe that he did but you can’t say for certain that he did. What you really mean is that you believe he gave us free will and that’s a big difference because it allows me the freedom to disbelieve and that’s very important to me.

I don’t have a problem with what you believe, it’s none of my business, I’m only interested in being allowed the freedom to disbelieve.

shattered-smiles
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44 posted 2008-03-29 04:47 PM


You are allowed the freedom to disbelieve.  I'm not trying to force you to believe that God does exist.  I choose to believe that God exists and I could fight on that topic for days if you let me.  I already have been, lol.  But my point, is that I can't make anyone believe in a higher power.  Many people do and many people don't.  You can choose to believe what you want to believe and I'll keep believing what I believe.  Everyone can do the same unless they want to change.  One of the other things I strongly agree in, is that life is much better with God.

TJ  

So cut me into pieces and tape me into something beautiful...

Falling rain
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45 posted 2008-03-29 07:27 PM


yes i can see your point. it does matter on what you do believe.

Have a nice Day!!

XxZachXx

"What did you think I ment?"

haha yes im sort of crazy deep down inside. lol!!



shattered-smiles
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46 posted 2008-03-30 03:35 PM


Thanx Zach!

So cut me into pieces and tape me into something beautiful...

Earl Robertson
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47 posted 2008-03-30 06:27 PM


Wow I agree with everything that has just been said. Grinch, CO, I'm sorry if I've come across as trying to force my beliefs on you, I haven't been.
However I'd like to leave you with a few things: Do you believe that man has been on the moon? If no why not? If yes prove it. Under the fallowing conditions, I accept no information from NASA or any other space agency. If you know anyone from such agencys or connected to them in any way I discount their input. All indirect political evidences are discounted as well as any vidios or official records.
You can find "resonable doubt" in anything if you refuse to look at any of the evidence.
The Spirit of God proved this to me when I like you was looking for any excuse to disprove it! If this is a lie it is the best constructed lie in history, and I am eternaly indebted to the man who started it! God lives gentlmen I know it  both intellectualy and spiritualy but I was never complete until I had the latter.  

"Be Strong and Always Remember what made you you." Earl

"Ooo!!! Ooo!! I know! I know! um...he he" Earl
(Yes I am crazy)

Falling rain
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48 posted 2008-03-30 06:38 PM


lol i agree. its was funny lol
Grinch
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Whoville
49 posted 2008-03-30 06:58 PM



Do I believe that man has been to the moon?

Yes.

Can I prove it?

No, but then again I don’t need to which has kind of been my point all along, I don’t need to prove something is true to believe in it, I only need to prove something if I want you to believe it.

So far you’ve evaded providing any evidence beyond your belief and the belief of others that god exists but continue to insist that god’s existence is beyond reasonable doubt.

I’ll gladly look at and discuss any evidence you believe you have.

quote:
God lives gentlmen


For some people so do fairies, it doesn’t mean I have to believe it.


shattered-smiles
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50 posted 2008-03-30 08:43 PM


Earl Robertson, I agree with everything you said.  Very well put.  I'm not trying to force anything on anyone either.  Even though some people I want to see in heaven, I know I won't.  But I sure wish I could.  Believe what you want to believe, but accept the fact that there is evidence right in front of you in your everyday lives that God is alive.  I'm not saying you have to believe it, I just want you to accept that there is evidence.  There really is.

TJ

So cut me into pieces and tape me into something beautiful...

Grinch
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Whoville
51 posted 2008-03-30 08:54 PM



quote:
Believe what you want to believe, but accept the fact that there is evidence right in front of you in your everyday lives that God is alive. I'm not saying you have to believe it, I just want you to accept that there is evidence. There really is.


Then show me the evidence, it can‘t be that hard if it actually exists, or is it that you just believe that there’s evidence?


shattered-smiles
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since 2008-01-20
Posts 247
inside the shadows
52 posted 2008-03-30 09:16 PM


People being saved from deathly situations, people's addictions suddenly being taken away from them... There are life saving miracles that happen everyday.  Some kid in Africa being cured from AIDS - that's a miracle.  In the world right now, there's a baby being born.  That's the miracle of new life.  In this world there is also a person that is dieing.  That may also be a miracle because they were suffering.  They may have wanted to die.  My past is actually quite horrid and I've never had a real family gathering.  My mom was almost always drunk and she couldn't be there.  I would always feel out of place.  Now my mom is in rehab and trying to get better.  For me, that is a miracle because maybe sometime, I'll have a normal family gathering.  I know that probably won't happen because she might not get custody of me again but I see it as a miracle that she's trying to stay sober.  In your life, you have witnessed a miracle.  Seeing a baby being born, holding a newborn in your arms, perhaps something major like seeing someone sick, suddenly get healthy.  There are numerous situations that are considered miraculous.  I believe those miracles were sent by God Himself.

TJ

So cut me into pieces and tape me into something beautiful...

Clockwork_Orange
Senior Member
since 2007-03-23
Posts 620
Space Camp, IN
53 posted 2008-03-30 10:39 PM


ok im sick of all this so called "evidence" that ISNT evidence at all... its things that happen, or things you want to believe is evidence that really isnt.

you CANNOT produce any evidence that god exists.

shattered-smiles
Member
since 2008-01-20
Posts 247
inside the shadows
54 posted 2008-03-30 10:40 PM


Pray.  Try praying and see what He tells you.  He might not tell you something right away but you'll know when it's Him.

TJ

So cut me into pieces and tape me into something beautiful...

Clockwork_Orange
Senior Member
since 2007-03-23
Posts 620
Space Camp, IN
55 posted 2008-03-31 06:42 AM


if i close my eyes and bow my head, im met with silence...just like you. there is no voice of god that tells you some deep philosophy
shattered-smiles
Member
since 2008-01-20
Posts 247
inside the shadows
56 posted 2008-03-31 08:22 AM


I know that God is always with me.  That proof is enough for me.  It's not going to change anything for me if you don't believe or if you don't think the same things I do.  I'm still going to believe the same things and if you don't believe, well, that changed pretty much nothing for me.

TJ

So cut me into pieces and tape me into something beautiful...

hiddensmiles
Senior Member
since 2008-02-07
Posts 514
at the beach... i wish
57 posted 2008-03-31 01:28 PM


just wondering, if you dont belive in god then who or what do think created the earth? and all its beauty

JJ

Earl Robertson
Senior Member
since 2008-01-21
Posts 753
BC, Canada
58 posted 2008-03-31 06:17 PM


When I close my eyes and bow my head I to am met with silence.

And then I begin to pray.
It is then that the spirit enters my heart and I feel a warmth in my breast. And then when I ask a question I recieve answer. Somtimes it is as simple as having the good feeling grow or go away. Other times it is a voice, which teaches me philosophy or tells me what to do! Things I would never think of on my own!
Please do not judge because you have no faith to ask.

Grinch I have shied away from undefeatable evidence for this reason only. It does not teach you about God! It didn't for me, in fact being stuck between two opinions was a factor in driving me to depression for two years.
The greatest miracle I can call to mind is when this was banished by the spirit of God!

But if you insist: The Book of Mormon. It's the most disputed book of scripture in the world because IF Joseph Smith translated it like he said then that means that God lives and that Joseph was a prophet.
It is important to note that Smith was a fourteen year old farm-boy when he started claiming visions and suffered because of it at that time.
He died for his testimony after living a very hard life. At the time he started "translating" the Book of Mormon he had the approximate equivalent of a grade three education and he finished it in three months.
There is more Gentlmen but I'll leave you with that and one article http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon_wordprint_studies
You can do any research you like, there are many people determined to find fault with the book And They Keep Failing!

Now to CO isn't coinsidence somthing? Isn't it wonderful that the universe lined itself up to create intelligent life? Isn't it marvelous to think that science allows us to see the sunrise, to live and to die and be dead? Knowing that we need not be judged for any of the crimes we comit in this life? I for one find it wonderful.

To TJ thank you for all you've said! I agree 100%.

"Be Strong and Always Remember what made you you." Earl

"Ooo!!! Ooo!! I know! I know! um...he he" Earl
(Yes I am crazy)

shattered-smiles
Member
since 2008-01-20
Posts 247
inside the shadows
59 posted 2008-03-31 06:22 PM


Earl, I agree 100% with you too.  Everything that you and I say on here is true.  We are met with silence but if we are met with silence, we are not listening.  Tell Him and He will answer.  Again, Earl, great reply.

TJ

So cut me into pieces and tape me into something beautiful...

Grinch
Member Elite
since 2005-12-31
Posts 2929
Whoville
60 posted 2008-03-31 07:05 PM


quote:
It's the most disputed book of scripture in the world because IF Joseph Smith translated it like he said then that means that God lives and that Joseph was a prophet.


And IF he didn’t?

The book is the most disputed book of supposed scripture for a very good reason - because there is no evidence that it’s a genuine translation, does that mean you shouldn’t believe it’s genuine? No certainly not, as I have continued to stress what you wish to believe is entirely up to you but to suggest that you have any clear and indisputable evidence for that belief is a delusion.

You’re falling into a fundamental trap that’s been used by religion for centuries, you’re presuming that a lack of evidence against a suggestion or supposition is evidence that the supposition is true. Claiming that things are true because there’s no evidence to the contrary isn’t a very good idea, once you start you have to accept the truth that fairies, pixies and trolls exist based on the reasoning that no evidence against them exists.

Try this for an example of the logic you’re trying to sell me:

In the 17th century a man in a tavern was arguing with a fellow customer and called him a witch, incensed the customer took the man to court to claim compensation for slander. When asked by the judge why he believed he’d been slandered the customer explained that he wasn’t a witch. The judge explained that for the court to find in his favour he had to prove that the claim that he was a witch was unfounded. The claimant was unable to provide any evidence that he wasn’t a witch and the case was dismissed, the claimant not only lost the case he also lost a lot more. Being unable to disprove he was a witch the judge ordered that he be taken into custody and burned at the stake as a witch.

Your logic is the same as the judges, if the claimant couldn’t prove he wasn’t a witch he must be a witch, fortunately logic, at least for most people, has moved on since then.


shattered-smiles
Member
since 2008-01-20
Posts 247
inside the shadows
61 posted 2008-03-31 07:27 PM


Okay, here is how I see it.  I don't know what you see, but this is what I see.  I know this saying is cheesy but listen to yoru heart.  You don't have to believe the "if" evidence.  Just listen to your heart.  God might speak but He might not.  Don't look at the evidence or follow the crowd, listen to your heart.

TJ

So cut me into pieces and tape me into something beautiful...

Clockwork_Orange
Senior Member
since 2007-03-23
Posts 620
Space Camp, IN
62 posted 2008-03-31 07:42 PM


Theres simply no evidence and no real god.
shattered-smiles
Member
since 2008-01-20
Posts 247
inside the shadows
63 posted 2008-03-31 07:50 PM


Since you're an atheist, you have different beliefs.  Since I'm a Christian, I have different beliefs.  You simply cannot make people believe what you believe and neither can I.

So cut me into pieces and tape me into something beautiful...

young_blood
Senior Member
since 2003-09-19
Posts 1115
Indianapolis, IN
64 posted 2008-03-31 09:25 PM


this is the dumbest thing i have ever read. This has no place in the poetry section. There's zero creativity behind this thought. People have been asking this since that dumbass Nieztsche walked the earth. I have no opinion either way. Please, try to think for yourself for one second as opposed to copying the thoughts of others. You may mature then.

Yes, that was harsh. I have no apologies for this. That's what happens when one begins to ruin a great forum. Thank you.

shattered-smiles
Member
since 2008-01-20
Posts 247
inside the shadows
65 posted 2008-03-31 10:22 PM


Hey, I'm not the one who started it!  I'm only giving my rightful opinion and if you don't like anything we're saying on this post then you can just go right ahead and skip over it!  It's not that big of a deal.

TJ

So cut me into pieces and tape me into something beautiful...

Elias Nevermore
Member
since 2007-11-03
Posts 152

66 posted 2008-03-31 10:27 PM


Clockwork Orange, here is your proof

____________________________________________________________

Origin of the Bible - The Truth About Translations
To many, the origin of the Bible can be summed-up as follows: "A mere translation of a translation of an interpretation of an oral tradition" - and therefore, a book with no credibility or connection to the original texts. Actually, the foregoing statement is a common misunderstanding of both Christians and non-christians alike. Translations such as the King James Version are derived from existing copies of ancient manuscripts such as the Hebrew Masoretic Text (Old Testament) and the Greek Textus Receptus (New Testament), and are not translations of texts translated from other interpretations. The primary differences between today's Bible translations are merely related to how translators interpret a word or sentence from the original language of the text source (Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek).

Origin of the Bible - The Reliability of Ancient Manuscripts
Another challenge against the origin of the Bible is the reliability of the manuscripts from which today's Bibles are translated. Remarkably, there is widespread evidence for absolute reliability. There are more than 14,000 existing Old Testament manuscripts and fragments copied throughout the Middle East, Mediterranean and European regions that agree dramatically with each other. In addition, these texts agree with the Septuagint version of the Old Testament, which was translated from Hebrew to Greek some time during the 3rd century BC. The Dead Sea Scrolls, discovered in Israel in the 1940's and 50's, also provide phenomenal evidence for the reliability of the ancient transmission of the Jewish Scriptures (Old Testament) before the arrival of Jesus Christ. The Hebrew scribes who copied the Jewish Scriptures dedicated their lives to preserving the accuracy of the holy books. These scribes went to phenomenal lengths to insure manuscript reliability. They were highly trained and meticulously observed, counting every letter, word and paragraph against master scrolls. A single error would require the immediate destruction of the entire text.

The manuscript evidence for the New Testament is also dramatic, with over 5,300 known copies and fragments in the original Greek, nearly 800 of which were copied before 1000 AD. Some manuscript texts date to the early second and third centuries, with the time between the original autographs and our earliest existing copies being a remarkably short 60 years. Interestingly, this manuscript evidence far surpasses the manuscript reliability of other ancient writings that we trust as authentic every day. Look at these comparisons: Julius Caesar's "The Gallic Wars" (10 manuscripts remain, with the earliest one dating to 1,000 years after the original autograph); Pliny the Younger's "History" (7 manuscripts; 750 years elapsed); Thucydides' "History" (8 manuscripts; 1,300 years elapsed); Herodotus' "History" (8 manuscripts; 1,300 years elapsed); Sophocles (193 manuscripts; 1,400 years); Euripides (9 manuscripts; 1,500 years); and Aristotle (49 manuscripts; 1,400 years).

Homer's "Iliad", the most renowned book of ancient Greece, has 643 copies of manuscript support. In those copies, there are 764 disputed lines of text, as compared to 40 lines in all the New Testament manuscripts (Norman L. Geisler and William E. Nix, A General Introduction to the Bible, Moody, Chicago, Revised and Expanded 1986, p. 367). In fact, many people are unaware that each of William Shakespeare's 37 plays (written in the 1600's) have gaps in the surviving manuscripts, forcing scholars to "fill in the blanks." This pales in textual comparison with the over 5,300 copies and fragments of the New Testament that, together, assure us that nothing's been lost. In fact, all of the New Testament except eleven verses can be reconstructed from the writings of the early church fathers in the second and third centuries. (A General Introduction to the Bible, Ch. 24.)

Origin of the Bible - The Power of Prophecy
The origin of the Bible is God. It is a historical book that is backed by archeology, and a prophetic book that has lived up to all of its claims thus far. The Bible is God's letter to humanity collected into 66 books written by 40 divinely inspired writers over a period of over 1,600 years. The claim of divine inspiration may seem dramatic (or unrealistic to some), but a careful and honest study of the biblical scriptures will show them to be true. Powerfully, the Bible validates its divine authorship through fulfilled prophecies. An astonishing 668 prophecies have been fulfilled and none have ever been proven false (three are unconfirmed). God decided to use prophecy as His primary test of divine authorship, and an honest study of biblical prophecy will compellingly show the supernatural origin of the Bible. Skeptics must ask themselves, "Would the gambling industry even exist if people could really tell the future?" Again, no other holy book comes even close to the Bible in the amount of evidence supporting its credibility, authenticity and divine authorship.

__________________________________________________________

I hope that cleared things up for you. If not, use the link to this site for more evidence. If the link doesn't work then just copy paste the site address.
http://www.bibleprobe.org/credible.html

Elias Nevermore
Member
since 2007-11-03
Posts 152

67 posted 2008-03-31 10:28 PM


Clockwork Orange, here is your proof

____________________________________________________________

Origin of the Bible - The Truth About Translations
To many, the origin of the Bible can be summed-up as follows: "A mere translation of a translation of an interpretation of an oral tradition" - and therefore, a book with no credibility or connection to the original texts. Actually, the foregoing statement is a common misunderstanding of both Christians and non-christians alike. Translations such as the King James Version are derived from existing copies of ancient manuscripts such as the Hebrew Masoretic Text (Old Testament) and the Greek Textus Receptus (New Testament), and are not translations of texts translated from other interpretations. The primary differences between today's Bible translations are merely related to how translators interpret a word or sentence from the original language of the text source (Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek).

Origin of the Bible - The Reliability of Ancient Manuscripts
Another challenge against the origin of the Bible is the reliability of the manuscripts from which today's Bibles are translated. Remarkably, there is widespread evidence for absolute reliability. There are more than 14,000 existing Old Testament manuscripts and fragments copied throughout the Middle East, Mediterranean and European regions that agree dramatically with each other. In addition, these texts agree with the Septuagint version of the Old Testament, which was translated from Hebrew to Greek some time during the 3rd century BC. The Dead Sea Scrolls, discovered in Israel in the 1940's and 50's, also provide phenomenal evidence for the reliability of the ancient transmission of the Jewish Scriptures (Old Testament) before the arrival of Jesus Christ. The Hebrew scribes who copied the Jewish Scriptures dedicated their lives to preserving the accuracy of the holy books. These scribes went to phenomenal lengths to insure manuscript reliability. They were highly trained and meticulously observed, counting every letter, word and paragraph against master scrolls. A single error would require the immediate destruction of the entire text.

The manuscript evidence for the New Testament is also dramatic, with over 5,300 known copies and fragments in the original Greek, nearly 800 of which were copied before 1000 AD. Some manuscript texts date to the early second and third centuries, with the time between the original autographs and our earliest existing copies being a remarkably short 60 years. Interestingly, this manuscript evidence far surpasses the manuscript reliability of other ancient writings that we trust as authentic every day. Look at these comparisons: Julius Caesar's "The Gallic Wars" (10 manuscripts remain, with the earliest one dating to 1,000 years after the original autograph); Pliny the Younger's "History" (7 manuscripts; 750 years elapsed); Thucydides' "History" (8 manuscripts; 1,300 years elapsed); Herodotus' "History" (8 manuscripts; 1,300 years elapsed); Sophocles (193 manuscripts; 1,400 years); Euripides (9 manuscripts; 1,500 years); and Aristotle (49 manuscripts; 1,400 years).

Homer's "Iliad", the most renowned book of ancient Greece, has 643 copies of manuscript support. In those copies, there are 764 disputed lines of text, as compared to 40 lines in all the New Testament manuscripts (Norman L. Geisler and William E. Nix, A General Introduction to the Bible, Moody, Chicago, Revised and Expanded 1986, p. 367). In fact, many people are unaware that each of William Shakespeare's 37 plays (written in the 1600's) have gaps in the surviving manuscripts, forcing scholars to "fill in the blanks." This pales in textual comparison with the over 5,300 copies and fragments of the New Testament that, together, assure us that nothing's been lost. In fact, all of the New Testament except eleven verses can be reconstructed from the writings of the early church fathers in the second and third centuries. (A General Introduction to the Bible, Ch. 24.)

Origin of the Bible - The Power of Prophecy
The origin of the Bible is God. It is a historical book that is backed by archeology, and a prophetic book that has lived up to all of its claims thus far. The Bible is God's letter to humanity collected into 66 books written by 40 divinely inspired writers over a period of over 1,600 years. The claim of divine inspiration may seem dramatic (or unrealistic to some), but a careful and honest study of the biblical scriptures will show them to be true. Powerfully, the Bible validates its divine authorship through fulfilled prophecies. An astonishing 668 prophecies have been fulfilled and none have ever been proven false (three are unconfirmed). God decided to use prophecy as His primary test of divine authorship, and an honest study of biblical prophecy will compellingly show the supernatural origin of the Bible. Skeptics must ask themselves, "Would the gambling industry even exist if people could really tell the future?" Again, no other holy book comes even close to the Bible in the amount of evidence supporting its credibility, authenticity and divine authorship.

__________________________________________________________

I hope that cleared things up for you. If not, use the link to this site for more evidence. If the link doesn't work then just copy paste the site address.
http://www.bibleprobe.org/credible.html

"Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there wondering, fearing,
Doubting, dreaming dreams no mortals ever dared to dream before;" -Edgar All

shattered-smiles
Member
since 2008-01-20
Posts 247
inside the shadows
68 posted 2008-03-31 10:37 PM


Thankyou so much Elias!  This is evidence Clockwork.  This is written down evidence but what I was saying before is that evidence doesn't always have to be facts.  It can be what comes in your heart and mind as well.

TJ

So cut me into pieces and tape me into something beautiful...

young_blood
Senior Member
since 2003-09-19
Posts 1115
Indianapolis, IN
69 posted 2008-03-31 11:18 PM


shattered smile that wasn't meant for for you, but for clockwork for starting this pointless thread.
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