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Passions in Poetry

Is it cheating?

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Dark Kisses
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0 posted 03-17-2005 06:01 PM       View Profile for Dark Kisses   Email Dark Kisses   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Dark Kisses

Okay here i go....

My bf is addicted to internet porn!!! (GRRR)  It is so bad, he even goes on Personal Sites, just to look at pics (yeah right!!)  

This makes me feel VERY insecure!  I have talked to him about it and he just doesnt understand!
Capricious
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1 posted 03-17-2005 06:37 PM       View Profile for Capricious   Email Capricious   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Capricious

I don't think anyone has enough information from this post to answer your question.

In fact, even if you gave us the low-down, it would be skewed from your point of view, so no meaningful observations or advice could be derived from it.

I'm sure you'll get lots of sympathy, however.  
Michelle_loves_Mike
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2 posted 03-17-2005 06:52 PM       View Profile for Michelle_loves_Mike   Email Michelle_loves_Mike   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Michelle_loves_Mike

I beg to differ cap,,,,i have plenty of info to draw from, my soon to be ex-husband started with the online porn, then the sites, "just to see whats there", now,,he is with the person he met on line, and they just had a son, I do wish them the best.
If it makes you feel that uncomfortable Dark, try your best to get that point accross to your b/f, even ask how he'd feel if you were cruising the stud sights, for the pics of course.
Porn has its place,be it online, movies, books, etc., but, when it becomes an addiction, as with all addictions, help is needed to overcome it.
And,,just to be fair, I did meet my b/f Mike online,,lol,so,,not all is bad, least in my world.

No one really cares,,why should I?

Christopher
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3 posted 03-17-2005 07:25 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

Blaming pornography for breaking up a relationship is like blaming a gun for shooting somebody.

It's what you do with it that matters, not that it exists. That goes for everything, from guns to pornography, to hanging out in bars, with your friends, having freindships with members of the opposite sex, to online friendships.

If you want to find the real problem, look at the roots, not the leaves.

egowhores.com - really love yourself.

Michelle_loves_Mike
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4 posted 03-17-2005 10:42 PM       View Profile for Michelle_loves_Mike   Email Michelle_loves_Mike   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Michelle_loves_Mike

I wasn't blamimg porn for breaking my relationship up,,,if anything,,I thank it,,lol,,,,my point was,,she isn't alone in feeling the way she feels, and she needs to get the way it makes her feel across to him,,altho,,the gun thing might help,,rofl

No one really cares,,why should I?

Greeneyes
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5 posted 03-18-2005 05:08 PM       View Profile for Greeneyes   Email Greeneyes   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Greeneyes

quote:
Blaming pornography for breaking up a relationship is like blaming a gun for shooting somebody.

It's what you do with it that matters, not that it exists

agreeing with Christopher here.....

~~*~~
I'm Standing on a bridge
I'm waitin in the dark
I thought that you'd be here by now
Theres nothing but the rain
~~**~~

serenity blaze
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6 posted 03-18-2005 05:20 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

If he has any habits that you can't cope with now, then leave him, now. I don't care if it's porn view or championship wrestling. *shudder*

(No offense intended to all the porn fans out there by the comparison.)



Capricious
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7 posted 03-18-2005 05:41 PM       View Profile for Capricious   Email Capricious   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Capricious

What about naked championship wrestling?  

And Michelle, your ex-husband is not her boyfriend (at least, I hope not).  Not all people that drink are alcoholics.

The truth is we know nothing about the situation, and other than blanket statements like Serenity's, our advice could have very little relevance to it at all.

littlewing
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8 posted 03-18-2005 08:39 PM       View Profile for littlewing   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for littlewing

agreeing with Christopher and Karen here, BUT
(there is always a but)
if it bothers you, you have to DO something about it or none of this will work.

You have to be honest with each other and in that, you may find a medium.

Be true to yourself or later on you will just resent it and him.  
SEA
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9 posted 03-18-2005 09:49 PM       View Profile for SEA   Email SEA   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for SEA

your question is, is it cheating? I would have to hope not...but if he likes it better than being with you, I would dump him....if it gets his motor running then he comes to you...then I don't see a problem. But yes, I do agree with Kissy Face and Karen is sooooo right.   I hope it works out for you.
A Romantic Heart
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10 posted 03-19-2005 01:32 PM       View Profile for A Romantic Heart   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for A Romantic Heart

Well let me just say...I understand what you are going through..and yes it is CHEATING..
http://www.drphil.com/advice/advice.jhtml?contentId=090302_relationships_internetporn.xml§ion=Relationships/Sex&subsection=Infidelity

Is Internet Porn Cheating?

Internet pornography is a growing trend that has many people worried about their relationships. Is it cheating? And is it a "normal guy thing"? Here's what Dr. Phil believes:


It is not OK behavior. It is a perverse and ridiculous intrusion into your relationship. It is an insult, it is disloyal and it is cheating.


Consider how it makes your partner feel. If it makes your partner feel ugly, hurt, deceived, lied to or inadequate, then it needs to stop. If it is eroding your relationship, it's gone too far.


Pornography isn't real, it's a fantasy. It's makeup, beauty lenses, hair extensions, camera angles, lighting and silicone! It's also somebody's daughter who has taken a really, really wrong turn. She's demeaning herself, debasing herself, humiliating herself and she's being exploited by people who are funded by you. It is a sick, demented, twisted world. It's not healthy, it's not natural and it's not normal.


Viewing Internet pornography or engaging in cybersex is a short step to taking cheating to the next level.


You need to tell your partner that viewing pornography is absolutely, unequivocally unacceptable in your relationship. Draw a line: Your partner needs to choose between the pornography or the relationship.

Ask yourself or your partner:


Would you do it with your partner standing right there?


Are you turning outside of your relationship to meet a need that should be met within the relationship? You can't change what you don't acknowledge, so find out if you or your partner have a problem.


Do you justify the behavior by saying, "It's harmless," "Everyone does it," or "It's just the Internet"?


Does it intrude on your relationship?


Which is more important: pornography or your relationship?.

Dr. Phil from the Oprah show, who now has his own show, has done a many of shows in regards to this very subject and he is qualified to do say...he says it is cheating.

These were his words to the man..."Would You Look at it if you knew your spouse or other was standing over your shoulders"....no...so if you know shouldn't be viewing it and that your wife disagrees and it makes her very uncomfortable, then it is cheating, it is wrong. You can go to Dr. Phils web site and put this topic matter in the search area, or go to marrige/couples issues.

I know what it feels like, you are hurting and this is a very important, sensitive matter to you. Take from me..for I have dealt with this problem in my OWN life...he starts with the internet, then he has to take it to the next level..just like drugs etc...it is an addiction. One thing leads to another, and so..on...They have to keep getting their fix, their high. What makes it more exciting for them is the sneakiness of going behind your back and talking to these women on the net.

Don't try to change them, for most don't want to change...and don't think it is anything you are doing or not doing..you are just as beautiful, even more so, because you are not as trashy as these women...women who have any respect for themselves or morals, values don't participate in this kind of behavior.(Sex for Money)(either the streets, movies, net) it is all prostitution, no matter haow "Nice" you try to dress it.

Dump him...he will try to convince you that he will quit, that he loves you..etc...you will forgive..and he will do it again..it is a cycle and an addiction...some will even loose their jobs over it...loose you ..choose this over you..knowing you disapprove and that it hurts you...that is deliberatly saying..."I know you are going to be hurt by this and I am for self..for me..(it is selfishness)..but I don't give a Da** about you..I want what I want....so it is a signal of selfishness.

Any time You have to hide something, lie about soemthing, steal money to get it, watch it.etc..it is an addiction.

From my experiance they look...lust over women more when they get out from the home, shopping, etc. They will even do it while you are with them, if you can catch them. When i say watch them...I mean follow them in the store...looking up and down, looking more than twice.

I am trying to save you alot of hurt...get out now while you can, you deserve a better life..one with trust and respect, he is not respecting you by doing this.

Take it from one who has been THERE, no one knows until they have walked a mile in my shoes!

There is alot more, but i prefer to not go into detail...I will just say this "I had been married to this man, for 6 years and he had been sneaking it in and getting up through the middle of the night while I was asleep to watch it...I didn't know this UNTIL i was pregnat with our son....then I had found out about the AFFAIR he had because of the porn..(the Counselor told us that the porn had lead to the affair)....I forgave him..went to counseling and he promised to change etc...but years later...I find more poern..hid...and he had been doing it the whole time...the whole time he was going to counseling and telling me and the counsellor that he wasn't doing it.

he is a sex addict..talks about all the time..wanted it all the time..don't get me wrong..making love is great with the one you love..but having "sex" all the time.."Three or more times a day" well just for the sake of ...you know ..is just sex...

No matter what you do, how romantic, sexy, beautiful you are, sweet, loving , kind, trustworthy....HE WILL STILL DO IT...because he has the problem! not YOU!

He is the one who always needs more...is never satisfied...you will never be good enough for him....because HE has the problem!



"Let me not to the marriage of true minds
Admit impediments; love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds,
Or bends with the remover to
Christopher
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11 posted 03-19-2005 11:14 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

These right-wing, judgemental, black-and-white statements always manage to get under my skin.
quote:
It is not OK behavior. It is a perverse and ridiculous intrusion into your relationship. It is an insult, it is disloyal and it is cheating.
This statement has absolutely no basis in facts, is not supported by anything other than this man's opinion and disregards any possiblity of the differences between one couple to the next. This, in effect, is saying that every relationship, everywhere has the same values and problems, the same morals and potential pitfalls. Perverse? You know what perverse means? "Directed away from what is right or good" Who is he to judge that this is not right or good? Our laws allow it, which means that the majority of the people can't seem to think it's such a "perverse" thing, which means he apparently thinks his judgements better than a good portion of the country's.
quote:
Adult Internet Pornography Statistics

Men admitting to accessing pornography at work: 20%
US adults who regularly visit Internet pornography websites: 40 million
70% of women keep their cyber activities secret.
17% of all women struggle with pornography addiction.
Women, far more than men, are likely to act out their behaviors in real life, such as having multiple partners, casual sex, or affairs.
Women favor chat rooms 2x more than men.
1 of 3 visitors to all adult web sites are women.
9.4 million women access adult web sites each month.
Women admitting to accessing pornography at work 13%

Internet Pornography Statistics: 2005



AND while we're on perverse, I'd still like to know (been asking this question for a long time) why things such as pornography - hell, even the much milder sex-scenes on movies receive such harsh attention, yet the consistent violence prevalent in oh-so-many shows we all watch is given virtually no attention? What this says to me, is that there are a bunch of people uncomfortable both with themselves and their bodies and they're trying to make themselves happier by bashing those who aren't so uncomfortable.

Ask yourself or your partner:

Would you do it with your partner standing right there?
Yes, and I have on many occasions. And then there are the times I've stood behind her while she was browsing...

Are you turning outside of your relationship to meet a need that should be met within the relationship? You can't change what you don't acknowledge, so find out if you or your partner have a problem. No, I'm/we're not. People set aside "Date Night" to spice up their relationship, they might schedule a trip to a beachside bungalow, or go dancing, or any other of a number of things to add variety and interest to their relationship (and note that I say "add to" the relationship not "define it" - pornography can be much the same.

Do you justify the behavior by saying, "It's harmless," "Everyone does it," or "It's just the Internet"? I don't do things I feel I need to justify; it's my life and I can live it how I choose. Who approves or doesn't is really not a concern that keeps me up at night.

Does it intrude on your relationship? As one can infer from above responses, no, it doesn't.

Which is more important: pornography or your relationship? My relationship. But it's never been an either or situation, because it IS just fantasy. Saying that it's "not real" like it's a revalation about made me fall out of my chair laughing. The subject of children watching pornography aside (and I believe that is a WHOLLY separate issue), those who watch pornography, well, you can be pretty sure thay're not thinking it's all that realistic (at least most men won't, considering the stamina of some of the guys in those flicks! )

egowhores.com - really love yourself.
serenity blaze
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12 posted 03-19-2005 11:25 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

"considering the stamina of some of the guys in those flicks! )"

Now C, um, from what I've been TOLD (*snort*) even the women in porn should be commended for their stamina. They should get some credit for being there.

and being there

and being there

and being there

and over there too.

and being there again.

and over there again too...

( Thanks for taking up the 'cause, C. I was exhausted. Just ask Capricious, as um, we've both been here before. er...well, you know what I mean.)


Dark Kisses
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13 posted 03-20-2005 03:17 PM       View Profile for Dark Kisses   Email Dark Kisses   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Dark Kisses

Okay Okay, I didnt mean to start such a debate!! (geesh)

Let me add a little more to this story for better understanding.

A month or so ago, I checked his email, there was a *swingers* personal ad email in it.  So I checked out the site for myself.  He had a personals ad on there and the title was (Looking4anOrgy) I asked him about it and he stated that he was just looking at pics.  I investigated further and found that he was also emailing women stating to them that his *wife* was okay with him getting a little from others as long as it didnt interfer with the relationship. Some emails he sent were way too much to say here (guidelines and all)I confronted him about the emails from  the site and he got UPSET saying to me that it was just in *FUN* that he wasnt planning on meeting anyone. Fantasy, so he stated.  One woman that he emailed thru this swingers site lives in the same town that he works in!!!

Okay men??  So is that considered Fantasy and is it okay to do a thing to your loved one?

serenity blaze
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14 posted 03-20-2005 05:23 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I didn't mean to make light of your apparent pain, if it seemed that way, I do apologize.

But it does seem to me that you FEEL violated, and I say that's enough. I don't know how old you are, or how much time you have invested in your relationship, or if that even matters.

I think a few of us were just trying to point out that other couples might feel differently about the issue.

My husband once ran seven groups catering to sexual fetishes. The only thing I ever felt as a result of that was boredom. (After some initial fascination)

He also corresponded with some of the women (er, at least we assume they were women)

My take on it, was if there was something/someone out there he wanted more than ME, the I didn't want HIM.

(ut then, I helped him load photo's of himself to send to an online gf recently, so we may not be the average couple. )

So I guess I'm saying that if he doesn't care that this is hurting you, and thus damaging the relationship, THAT is the real issue, pornography or not.

Talk to him, and if he can't see that, then I'd say, "time to move on".

Good luck to you sweetie. I'm sorry for joking about what is obviously a painful situation for you.

Denise
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15 posted 03-20-2005 06:32 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Yes, I would consider it cheating. My view is that it brings "others" into the relationship that don't belong there.
SEA
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16 posted 03-20-2005 09:11 PM       View Profile for SEA   Email SEA   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for SEA

again, I agree with Christopher (Kissy Face) 100% . I do also have to say that after what you said about checking "his" email, you don't trust him on that fact alone. That tells me there is a problem. Then what you did find, sounds to me like it's time to find someone who is better suited for you and shares your values. I think it's more than porn that you should be worried about. I would be worried that he will bring you home a disease.
Magnus
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17 posted 03-22-2005 08:41 PM       View Profile for Magnus   Email Magnus   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Magnus

When a man or woman has an excuse for every
incident of inappropriate activity.........
there is definitely a problem.  As long as
he continues to deny or have a reason,
and does not understand that he is making
you uncomfortable or hurting your relationship....

That is when I think I would find someone
else who cares more about others and has
their priorities in the right places...
Obviously,  he does not...and I seriously
doubt he ever will...it has probably also
been a problem in past relationships as
well (if there was enough time for this to
have occured)....

Good Luck....tell him exactly how you feel
and I would seriously doubt his sincerity
of fixing the relationship,  he has a
sexual addiction and until he understands
what it is, and who it is harming...and
develops compassion for others....HE WON'T
CHANGE...
Mysteria
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18 posted 03-22-2005 10:22 PM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

First, I am so sorry for the pain you must be feeling.  Barry is right - your man is telling you who he is loud and clear, and won't change.  Thank goodness you can, and I hope you might look at the possibility of this being an extremely toxic relationship for you, and you are worth more than being second place. However, perhaps you can live with three is a crowd who knows?  I think by posting this painful chapter in your life you wanted confirmation of your own instincts, and they are 100% correct.  I hope you listen to them and follow them.  
LeeJ
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19 posted 03-24-2005 07:21 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

I've got to stand with Denise, Mysteria, & Barry on this one!  

Also, if it has comes to the issue, that you feel you must check up on him, then, there is and has been a problem already. Remember, ommission is the same as a lie.

Don't trade your values or beliefs or try to justify behavior that does not fit into your moral adgenda....intimacy is and can be a very beautiful & positively spiritual journey....yet a very privet union, between two people who love each other and respect each other, without outside stimulous.    

Way to much emphasis is put on SEX today, nothing is left sensual...delicate, honorable, and responsibility for the hearts of others involved and thinking of them first is becoming vastly lost, not to mention, conscience.    

We can take any issue and convince ourselves with statistics to back up our thoughts, but when it comes down to the nitty gritty, one must ask themselves, could I really live with this person, do I really want to believe in things I do not approve of...or try to become someone I am not?

Eventually, you will resent yourself, as you chip away at your identity, to justify his actions....love "is" trust, without any question...and yes, porn is cheating, to me, anyway, and I wouldn't be able to conform to that life style...

If trust is broken, it is very hard to mend.  Once you've come this far, it opens the mind to other questions & contamination of the relationship...just how far would he or has he gone?  

Follow your intuition, that gut feeling inside....don't ignore the flags for a love, you thought you have, you want a love you know, intamently, one which values you so much so, that no one else would do

Don't ask others for approval for your feelings...as we all have different ideals about the way we live our lives...what you must understand is this...When you trust yourself, and love yourself, you will be able to choose more responsible candidates for a lifetime companion. Until then, you will "buy" words with no sincerity behind them.  

If in your heart, you feel this is wrong...then stand by that moral institution of yours which makes you you!  In other words, everyone has a different point of view...doesn't make me right or them wrong...but if I can't stand by my own set of rules, or would compromise them for fear of loosing someone or not being liked, then...who in the world am I?  A contridictive mixed up woman who doesn't trust herself and choices.  

In the end what matters is...are you both compatible in thought, needs, morals, likes, dislikes, political views, etc....you can't agree on everything & won't, but compatibility surely helps...but this one's a biggy!  Intimacy of the mind, can be just as rewarding as physical intimacy and sometimes even better...the more time you spend with someone, the prettier & more attractive, they "should" become...I for one, and I'm simply speaking for myself, have a great need for mental stimulation...physical stimulation I could get anywhere, if I so chose to do so...but mental stimulation and sensuality, makes for a much deeper and spiritual physical intimacy...one journey that you will never ever forget....and will sufice for a lifetime of events.

I don't think this fella respects himself, and if that's true, then he will never understand respect for you...your feelings and needs, and you do have them....needs, which are just as important as his.

Is this cheating....yes, to me it is...but...one can easily convince themselves since it's only a picture, it's not really cheating...

Is sex to him an addiction?  If that is true, then please know, these type of people, only feel powerful when they are in bed...they delude themselves into believing that they are the best, b/c they have no confidence in themselves in other areas... Sex to them, is their only source of power, like some people need fast shiny cars or a beautiful young man/woman on their arm...status and prestige...or an addiction to money.  In your mind, what is your description of sucess, and it might be a question you'd ask of any candidate whom your trusting your heart with.  Your heart, is the greatest investment you will ever make, and when you decide to share that intimate part of self, you'd better make it quite clear, who you are, and what you believe in...no masks...b/c it's better to loose him now, and find someone more compatible to your needs, then 14 years down the road, now effecting the lives of your children.

What do you want?  What is good for you?  How does this make you feel?  What are "your" needs from a relationship?  What emotions are most important in a relationship...are his needs the same, does he stimulate you intellectually, will he put anything he might be doing aside to spontaniously do something nice for you?  Will he let you choose and does he encourage you to further education, further your growth...does he look at you and smile being kind only when he's horney, or...does he look at you that way...does he brag about his sexual experiences with other woman and/or take so much pride in his, shall we say, experience...gloating?

I've found that men of such are very very insecure...and when it comes down to it, some of them cannot be intimate in any other way...and they are like this with every woman they meet, thinking that every woman who smiles at them, says good morning or strikes up a conversation with them...wants them....yes, they are that insecure, not to mention, great players and liers.  

I'm sorry, but this behavior runs a pattern...as does an alcoholic, controller, child or wife abuser...it is a sickness which requires long term theropy...

I felt a need to explain in detail here, because these are things, I believe you already know, but the need for a boyfriend, keeps you in denial.  No on can answer these questions, only you know, but make certain, you are honest with yourself, first and foremost.

The fact that you've already asked this question, signfies you already knew the answer before you asked?

I wrote a poem for you today...
http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum92/HTML/001204.html  


Hugs and prayers for you...and yours.




Aenimal
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20 posted 03-25-2005 02:10 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

fantasy is not cheating...take away the stigma of pornography for a second:

Were married women and girls with boyfriends who went into hysterics over the Beatles, or sighing over their favourite rock/pop star posters cheating?

Are married females watching,drooling and commenting over Brad Pitt cheating? Were teenage girls with boyfriends, watching Leonardo in Titanic over and over cheating?
LeeJ
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21 posted 03-28-2005 06:38 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

Anemial....

Sorry Anemial...but what you describe is certainly not the same...not to me, anyway...whole different ball game entirely
SEA
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22 posted 03-28-2005 10:31 AM       View Profile for SEA   Email SEA   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for SEA

I think it's exactly the same thing Lee....when Jon took me to see Prince, I screamed at one point...'Ilove you' to Prince, along with every other woman....hehehe... but was that cheating? Nope, I sure don't think so. I was caught up in the moment of "being there". I think Raph makes an excellent point.
LeeJ
Member Patricius
since 06-19-2003
Posts 13093
SE PA


23 posted 03-28-2005 11:12 AM       View Profile for LeeJ   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LeeJ

we're talking porn compared to a simple crush, are we not?...

I had a teacher I had a crush on...it didn't have anything to do with porn..no, no, no, far from it....or your child's crush on the neighbors child, is not porn...or child porn....?????  

There is most certainly a difference, right now I have a crush on Kevin Costner, but it's not porn...unless of course, you count how many times I've dreampt about him...hehe...NOT!  

But I suggest, you understand the definition of porn, maybe that will clarify, or...perhaps I'm not understanding your view point...but can hardly compare a crush to being addicted to porn...????

And, porn, I don't believe can be compared to naked pictures of women or men?


Susan Caldwell
Member Rara Avis
since 12-27-2002
Posts 8464
Florida


24 posted 03-28-2005 11:52 AM       View Profile for Susan Caldwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Susan Caldwell

Dark Kisses,

As some have already said, I don't think this is a matter of "cheating" but rather a matter of trust for you.  You have already answered your own question.  It isn't alright in a relationship with you.

Now for my personal experience: (some already know this story *kiss* so talk amongst yourselves)...

I was in a relationship were porn was being viewed and I didn't have a problem with it.  Until the day I found that he had been looking at gay male porn.

ah...that was a problem for me.  

When I confronted him, one of the things he said was that he couldn't understand my concern as I have gay friends and family members and have no problem with them....my response?  I ain't sleepin' with them!!!! He was all moved out 2 days later..

Now, someone else might not have had a problem with it and that is okay too.

It's all about what you feel.  

Good luck.  

"too bad ignorance isn't painful"
~Unknown~

 
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