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Enemy of the moderation business

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Peter J Marcroft
Member
since 02-02-2003
Posts 282
York, England


0 posted 07-15-2003 07:12 AM       View Profile for Peter J Marcroft   Email Peter J Marcroft   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Peter J Marcroft


It seems there has been an infestation of code worshippers on this site recently.  A spate of moderations have been thrown at my poems because they contain a minute portion of death, while focusing on a much more important subject.  Recent poem 'Stalker' which talked about the dark side of fame was pulled for graphic content, another of mine called 'empty diving pool' about how an injury forced an athelete to lose her fans and ultimately her career was pulled for the same reason.

I am seriously thinking of quitting this site, while it has been nice to meet some new people and expose some of my poems, be they epics or simple 16 line rhymes, I do not feel my stay here is constructive any longer.  Right now my confidence in the moderators is zero, it seems they are merely glancing at the content and then hitting the 'moderate' function.  This is far from constructive, especially as poetry is about reflection and often it requires three or four reads before you notice subtle wordplays that actually lead towards the real meaning of the poem.

I think I will be taking some time off from here, not only to work on my poetry but to try and give the moderators time to justify their methods, because right now it seems like I am on some form of moderation blacklist which is allowing people to witch hunt my work, well it will stop right now.  No one has the right to merely shoot down someone's work with very little reason given for it.  Moderators, in me you have an enemy.

Thanks for nothing.
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


1 posted 07-15-2003 08:13 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Peter? I AM a fan of your work.

but I do NOT even understand this first sentence:

"It seems there has been an infestation of code worshippers on this site recently"

Hmmm.

I think not.

What there IS going on here, is a very DILIGENT and admirable crew of poets and people who simply LOVE this site and wish to maintain it according to the guidelines upon which we all agreed.

And hey, Peter? I have screwed up on MORE than one occasion. But the thing is? I KNEW IT. HEY? I SCREW UP ALL THE TIME.

and? sigh. I may have just done it again...



But? In the interest of parity, I wish you would consider a stint at being a Deputy Moderator, so you can fully understand just how MUCH thought goes on behind these seemingly random decisions.

The only people I see complaining of late?
Are people who haven't even tried a stint of moderation.
It's not a personal issue--you KNOW I love your work. But I can't just let still yet ANOTHER complaint go by unanswered.

I KNOW what these people do and know how much thought and care they put into this--

think again, Peter?

Is this REALLY such an awful place?
Mysteria
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Laureate
since 03-07-2001
Posts 19652
British Columbia, Canada


2 posted 07-15-2003 10:31 AM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

Darn Peter,

I was trying not to comment on this but I feel I must, and not even as a moderator.  Serenity is right, in order to see what goes on behind the scenes of Passions you actually have to take part in it, and that is encouraged.  There are no "witch hunts" at all ever, and I will swear to that.  I would not even be part of a site that became that biased.  The moderators that "volunteer" are the greatest group of people and sometimes just agree to disagree for the sake of the consensus, which there always is by the way.

I personally really like your work, and know the thought and effort you put into it, but as member's we have all had the opportunity to read the guidelines, and whether we abide by them or not is the real issue here.  That is what the moderators do - they make sure that the guidelines are upheld, and in your case they were.  

Now, if you feel you have been picked on in any way, that is a feeling no one can take away from you, but perhaps read the guidelines again with an open mind and see why your work got removed.  One thing that jumps out right away to me and is on the Member's Help page is that which I have bolded below.  I have also for the sake of those who will read this, put all the BIG and LITTLE rules that Ron has put into place for his site.  Here is the link to the entire page for those that care to read,  http://piptalk.com/pip/guidelines/rules.html
but this is an excerpt:
quote:

Our Rules In Summary
The BIG Rules

* A personal attack against another individual, no matter how warranted or justified, is unacceptable

* Profanity is unacceptable (and disguising it with asterisks won't make it any more acceptable)

* Sensationalistic sex and violence is unacceptable

* Advocating harm to a human being (including self-harm) is unacceptable

Note: Sex, death, violence, and even suicide can all be explored in responsible ways and that kind of exploration is encouraged. Please use your best judgement, but be willing to accept the final judgement of the Moderators.

The Little Rules

* Avoid posting too many poems at the same time in the same forum (but reply as often as you like)

* Do not post the same poem in multiple forums.

* Use the appropriate forums for discussions and save the poetry forums for poetry

* Do not post the words of another (even with their permission)



There are of course sites that will let you post whatever the heck you want, but this is never going to be one of them, and for that I thank Ron and the moderators.

I hope you will join us in giving it a shot as the invitation is there for anyone to join.  Take care and keep writing.

[This message has been edited by Mysteria (07-15-2003 11:19 AM).]

Toad
Member
since 06-16-2002
Posts 247


3 posted 07-15-2003 01:00 PM       View Profile for Toad   Email Toad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toad


Its hard to voice an opinion without reading the poems in question can you forward them to me via email?

Local Parasite
Deputy Moderator 10 Tours
Member Elite
since 11-05-2001
Posts 2929
Transylconia, Winnipeg


4 posted 07-15-2003 02:28 PM       View Profile for Local Parasite   Email Local Parasite   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Local Parasite's Home Page   View IP for Local Parasite

They're not kidding, Peter, when they say "try signing up for a rotation and see for yourself," because that really WILL answer a lot of your questions and most likely make you feel a lot better about the moderation process.  At least, it did for me.

Faith is a fine invention
When gentlemen can see
But microscopes are prudent
In an emergency.
~~~Emily Dickinson

Peter J Marcroft
Member
since 02-02-2003
Posts 282
York, England


5 posted 07-15-2003 06:26 PM       View Profile for Peter J Marcroft   Email Peter J Marcroft   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Peter J Marcroft

I understand what you lot are saying but I am sorry my feelings will not change, it seems that there are too many grey areas for the rule on posting material to work.  
For example the part about death, suicide and so on can be talked about reasonably.  

Why is there no clear identification of what counts as reasonable or not?  A person could describe the aftermath, yet if they try and discuss the feeling at the time they are deleted.  What if someone wants to reflect on a car crash they were in?  Would this also be Pulled?

Why have I seen numerous topics about drugs and the like go unpunished while my more subtle pieces which use death as metaphor rather than act are deleted on sight?  

It is instances such as this that make believe this site is in some way biased and that I have been treated unfairly, it is not as if the process for this is swift.  'Empty diving pool' was pulled about three days ago and I still have had no feedback on whether the piece will be allowed to stand or not having had my case heard.  This is not good enough, on this site there are guidelines and if you stray out of them the artist has the right to know whether they have gone too far and why they have gone too far as soon as possible.  Leaving them wondering whether their work is allowed or not for days on end is totally counter productive and will only serve to raise further animosity between them and the mods.

I am sorry but as reasonable as the suggestions sounded, so far it seems there has been little to raise my confidence and the fact that my last two feedback e:mails have been ignored makes it seems like this will not happen in the future either.

I also find it hard to understand why there are no designated forums for material which is outside the general topic.  I have found a forum which has a collection of adult poetry, yet for some reason you are not allowed to post poetry into it.  I feel that this is grossly unfair, what if an individual writes personal poetry and the only subjects they know about are things like child abuse, drug addiction and murder?  Are you going to simply exclude this group of poets from your site?  Hardly the most amazing advert for your forum is it?  

What needs to happen is for rules to be made much clearer it is all well and good saying 'use your sense of reason' but unfortunately for you lot the world is not a black and white place.  One person may see driving a car as unreasonable and another would see it as perfectly reasonable.  You see my point?  The terms are too vague, they do not prepare the writer for what to do when their work is pulled and it does not help their case.  

Secondly this site needs a place where such topics as death and so on can be discussed.  Ok I understand the need to protect young children and those of certain backgrounds but the fact is that I doubt it beyond the realms of possibility.  

These suggestions are what I think would help make this site be more responsible and interactive, because the writers would know what can go where and the moderators work would be more accurate as a result.  Right now it seems far too random for my liking and that is not a good way of advertising your site as a poetry forum.

[This message has been edited by Peter J Marcroft (07-15-2003 06:34 PM).]

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


6 posted 07-15-2003 06:50 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Peter, if you don't have access to the Mature Content forums, just ask. The Adult Poetry forum that I'm assuming you refer to is an archive. Please keep in mind, also that Mature Content does NOT mean unmoderated. Glorification of harm, to self or others is STILL against guidelines and that is strictly enforced, as well as harmful "lifestyle preferences."

I can see how some of the calls the moderators make can be confusing--it's not easy to judge intent by reading. But please know that this group of people is always willing to hear you out, and if you have a complaint, you can always be assured you will be granted a fair and yes, impartial review.

Please check out the Mature Content Forums before you make a decision.

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


7 posted 07-15-2003 07:50 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Peter, the fact that these people (most of them moderators) are trying to placate you and try to convince you to change your mind instead of saying "See ya" should tell you something about the people and moderators of this site.

As far as our not advertising it well, if you click on the colored square at the bottom of this page you will see the stats for the site....for example there is an average of over 20,000 visits to the site per day viewing over 113,000 pages per day. Over 47,000,000 visits to the site and 230,000,000 pages viewed might tell you something about the reputation of the quality of the site. If you insist on believeing there is some conspiracy against you nothing I can say will change your mind, I know, but believe me we have better things to do than plan and carry out conspiracies against members. As far as our guidelines or rules not working, well, check those figues and then you decide if we feel the need to change them just because a poet feels they are not adequate. I also would prefer to see you stay but the guidelines will not change just because you are not in agreement with them. Whatever you decide, I wish you the best....
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


8 posted 07-15-2003 08:12 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Leaving them wondering whether their work is allowed or not for days on end is totally counter productive and will only serve to raise further animosity between them and the mods.

Many of the decisions to pull a thread are made within an hour, and certainly most are made within a day. That yours often take longer to decide, Peter, is a testament to the fine line you try to walk. There were 29 comments and different viewpoints offered on your latest poem, Stalker, before it was pulled. We can be fast or we can be fair, but it's pretty hard to be both.

The problem we face is that violence is sometimes a legitimate literary tool and sometimes it's just sensationalistic titillation. When we find a poem that relies heavily on violence for its effect, we look very hard for the former, a search that necessarily takes time. You wrote back to us and said: "'Stalker' was a poem about someone being stalked but there being a guardian who watched over them and protected them." That may well have been your intent, but that was not what you wrote. You wrote about an attack, a counter-attack, flashing knives, screams, gun shots, and blood that paints the walls. The violence couldn't be used to characterize the stalker, from which you drew the poem's title, because you made no effort at all to show the reader anything at all about him. He's just a cardboard puppet, with no motivation. The violence doesn't reveal the victim's fear to us, because the victim shows only marginally more depth than the stalker. The poem is written from the viewpoint of the protector, but the violence touches him only in the sense of his retaliation, itself a questionably criminal act. Stalking, if that was what this poem was about, isn't a capital punishment. Take out all of the blood and guts from this poem, Peter, and what do you have left? Does the violence support a meaningful theme? Or does the theme exist solely to justify the violence? Those are the questions our Moderator team have been asking themselves.

Would we pull a poem if someone wanted to reflect on a car crash they had experienced? If the entire poem was about shattered glass, twisting metal, broken bones and bloody lacerations, yes, we would pull it. If it was about fear and pain and recriminations, the event would be secondary to the people and the emotions. I'm not going to tell you how to write poetry, Peter, because heaven knows I'm not qualified, but if you continue to focus on violent events without providing deeper insight into people and emotions, you're going to be walking a fine line that will inevitably result in poems being pulled. If you have to explain to a fairly large group of fairly experienced readers that diving into an empty swimming pool headfirst is a metaphor for not giving up, then I'm sorry, but your poem has failed. Poetry must stand on its own merit, without explanations, and especially without explanations that make little more sense than did the poem. Killing yourself is a poor choice of metaphor for any reader facing depression and a slap in the face for the thousands who really do commit suicide every year.

I honestly believe, Peter, that your intent is good and you really are trying to write something with depth. If I didn't believe that, the warnings you've received would have been much harsher, because these forums will never be a place for sensationalistic titillation. Contrary to your inferences, our Guidelines don't exist to protect the kiddies, but rather to shield all of us with reasonable sensibilities and good taste. These forums were formed four years ago largely to escape the sensationalism we kept running across everywhere else. Violence for the sake of violence doesn't sell well here.

Again, I don't think that was your intent. But if you insist on using blood and guts in your work, you're going to have to dig a whole lot deeper as a writer to make it work. I honestly don't know very many writers, including myself, with the experience and skill to write about vivid, graphical violence and not allow that to become the theme of the poem. Certainly not in twenty lines or less. I commend your intent to write something with depth. But I caution you that horrific violence will leave you no room for failure in these forums.

Blood and guts, without evidence of very strong redeeming value, will continue to be pulled.
Peter J Marcroft
Member
since 02-02-2003
Posts 282
York, England


9 posted 07-19-2003 12:06 PM       View Profile for Peter J Marcroft   Email Peter J Marcroft   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Peter J Marcroft

Goodbye to all who appreciated my work, I enjoyed alot of work here too and I am glad that I joined for twelve months.  But now I have been stabbed in the back and the knife has been twisted.  I have had enough, I won't go into details, it is not fair on those involved that I do.  But one thing is certain, I will not be returning.  I hope to see all of you again somewhere in time.  But as of now, Peter J Marcroft will be posting to this site no more.  

I have been truly pleased about feedback on the whole.  Whether it was to my epics such as 'Blood of kings' and 'Dante's Inferno' or to my simple short pieces such as 'Insanity' and 'Reflections of time'  To all of you who gave me such a wonderful response may I tell you now that I am eternally in your debt and that I will forever hold the memories of you close to my writing.  

To those who caused me to leave this place, a big THANKS FOR NOTHING.
PoetryIsLife
Deputy Moderator 5 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 10-27-2001
Posts 4115
...in my boxers...


10 posted 07-19-2003 02:31 PM       View Profile for PoetryIsLife   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for PoetryIsLife

Well said, Ron.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


11 posted 07-19-2003 03:14 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

but believe me we have better things to do than plan and carry out conspiracies against members



except toerag...

thanks Ron and moderators et al for minding the store!  
Midnitesun
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Empyrean
since 05-18-2001
Posts 29020
Gaia


12 posted 07-19-2003 03:52 PM       View Profile for Midnitesun   Email Midnitesun   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Midnitesun

quote:
Poetry must stand on its own merit, without explanations, and especially without explanations that make little more sense than did the poem


Exactly. Thank you for that, Ron.

[This message has been edited by Midnitesun (07-19-2003 03:53 PM).]

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


13 posted 07-19-2003 11:29 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Toerag is an actual member??
Nightshade
Deputy Moderator 5 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Laureate
since 08-31-2001
Posts 14673
just out of reach


14 posted 07-19-2003 11:56 PM       View Profile for Nightshade   Email Nightshade   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Nightshade's Home Page   View IP for Nightshade


Wind
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 10-12-2002
Posts 3185


15 posted 07-20-2003 03:19 PM       View Profile for Wind   Email Wind   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Wind

"To those who caused me to leave this place, a big THANKS FOR NOTHING."

lol- nobody caused you to leave this place. You made that decision on your own. Well said ron
Peter J Marcroft
Member
since 02-02-2003
Posts 282
York, England


16 posted 07-20-2003 04:50 PM       View Profile for Peter J Marcroft   Email Peter J Marcroft   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Peter J Marcroft

This is related to a post by ron in 'suggestions' which isolated me and justified personal attacks on my posts, that is why I have been forced into leaving, for I will not be a part of this constitutional hell.

Goodbye.
Toad
Member
since 06-16-2002
Posts 247


17 posted 07-20-2003 04:59 PM       View Profile for Toad   Email Toad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toad


Peter,

Now Im confused.

I thought youd left, are you planning on staying in this constitutional hell with the rest of us idiots or was that a final final farewell?
Marge Tindal
Deputy Moderator 5 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Empyrean
since 11-06-1999
Posts 43042
Florida's Foreverly Shores


18 posted 07-20-2003 05:00 PM       View Profile for Marge Tindal   Email Marge Tindal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Marge Tindal's Home Page   View IP for Marge Tindal

Peter~
I have had a FRIEND that knows you through your poetry that would like to have your email ... those are no longer visibly accessible here ... if you'd like, please write me and I'll let you know who would like to drop you a note ... my email can be found at the end of my signature line~

Thank you ... and may you find an acceptable place to post your writing ...
I am truly hoping that you don't hold whatever has happened to you against all of us members ... things happen ... we learn to deal with them and move on gracefully~
Others have before you ... and I'm sure you'll find a haven for your poetry as they did~

I wish you happiness and peace~
*Huglets*
~*Marge*~

~*The pen of the poet never runs out of ink, as long as we breathe.*~
noles1@totcon.com

Miah
Senior Member
since 08-26-2002
Posts 1092
Pennsylvania


19 posted 07-21-2003 01:17 AM       View Profile for Miah   Email Miah   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Miah

Sometimes being subtle makes a greater impact.
Larry C
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Patricius
since 09-10-2001
Posts 10765
United States


20 posted 07-21-2003 02:20 AM       View Profile for Larry C   Email Larry C   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Larry C's Home Page   View IP for Larry C

Good bye.

[This message has been edited by Larry C (07-21-2003 02:34 AM).]

serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


21 posted 07-21-2003 06:57 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Miah said:

"Sometimes being subtle makes a greater impact."

With that in mind? I'll wish you well, Peter, and for once I will make a quiet exit.
Susan Caldwell
Member Rara Avis
since 12-27-2002
Posts 8464
Florida


22 posted 07-21-2003 12:32 PM       View Profile for Susan Caldwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Susan Caldwell

"Moderators, in me you have an enemy."

"Thanks for nothing."

Not that anyone asked for my two cents, but what the heck, when have I not given it?

Those two quotes seem very childish to me, and frankly, if you can't follow the rules..find a new game...

Just for the record...I have had something I posted get pulled...no big deal..I understood..

Goodbye Peter.  
 
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