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Passions in Poetry

Bush and God

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Greeneyes
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Member Patricius
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0 posted 03-05-2003 12:34 AM       View Profile for Greeneyes   Email Greeneyes   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Greeneyes


What are your thoughts? If we do go to war, who would you place “blame on” I hate to use that word, but for a lack of better….Yes I read far too much News Week….Would you hold Bush accountable for the ‘action’/s Do you think God would?,  now I know that’s a broad term, we all have some spiritual knowledge, some higher power, and I don’t want to make this all about religion, but I am curious…..is this “right” “wrong?   How would you judge such a day?   Would it be a sin against humanity? How do you feel about war? (for what ever your reasons)....


Curious
Lauren~


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So I can pull you into me

anonymousfemale
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1 posted 03-05-2003 07:31 AM       View Profile for anonymousfemale   Email anonymousfemale   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for anonymousfemale

Bush is pathetic, religion is for the weak and war is an excuse for the big men of the world to whip out their guns and play schoolyard bully.

"Write something, even if it's just a suicide note." -- Gore Vidal

Opeth
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2 posted 03-05-2003 08:47 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

It is not just one man, Bush, who makes the decision for America to go to war against any other country. His cabinet members, including military advisors assist the president by providing him information and analysis on what should be done.

There is no reason to blame Bush for going to or not going to war with Iraq.
Aenimal
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3 posted 03-05-2003 01:18 PM       View Profile for Aenimal   Email Aenimal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Aenimal

I think the blame should be squarely on art, music, television and literature because if there was actually anything NEW worth looking,listening to,watching or reading we'd have something better to do..that or Bush. and religion don't get me started...it's one of mankind's greatest evil's, right up there with New Coke, Boy-bands,the Buffalo Bills andreality shows..

Yes I am insane why do you ask?

[This message has been edited by Aenimal (03-05-2003 01:21 PM).]

defenestrate
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4 posted 03-05-2003 02:52 PM       View Profile for defenestrate   Email defenestrate   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for defenestrate

i think bush is a patsy.

i think there are many people bent for war, and it won't be possible or useful to point the finger.
wandering glider
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5 posted 03-05-2003 06:41 PM       View Profile for wandering glider   Email wandering glider   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for wandering glider

In the cartoon, "The Boondocks", which reaches 20 million readers every day, the cartoonist Aaron Magruder has his character, a black youngster named Huey Freedman, say the following: "In this time of war against
Osama bin Laden and the oppressive Taliban regime, we are thankful that OUR leader isn't the spoiled son of a powerful politician from a wealthy oil
family who is supported by religious fundamentalists, operates through clandestine organizations, has no respect for the democratic electoral process, bombs innocents, and uses war to deny people their civil liberties.
Amen."

w.g.
Balladeer
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6 posted 03-05-2003 07:07 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

God started it. He created the first burning Bush....
Wind
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7 posted 03-05-2003 07:08 PM       View Profile for Wind   Email Wind   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Wind

No war! War is pointless and stupid. All that would be gained from war is lost. They say going to war is to fight for our country, to save our people. But what they don't realize that war does not save us, it kills us. I am very against war. And I think everyone is to blame. If we were a more selfless and giving nation, we wouldn't have gotten ourselves into this mess. I don't want my life or my friend's and familly's life to be taken away because of mistakes that could have been avoided.

my sister says "religion is the devil" and I agree. (it makes no sense though) lives are lost ecause people can't just accept the beliefs of others.

the Wind is invisible.
        remeber me

[This message has been edited by Wind (03-05-2003 07:11 PM).]

Marshalzu
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8 posted 03-06-2003 10:21 AM       View Profile for Marshalzu   Email Marshalzu   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Marshalzu's Home Page   View IP for Marshalzu

Want to blame someone for war? how about looking Saddam Hussein's direction.
Opeth
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9 posted 03-06-2003 10:44 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

War is pointless and stupid. We should of just let Hitler do what he wanted...you know...lay our weapons down and say to his minions, "War is stupid."
Sudhir Iyer
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10 posted 03-06-2003 11:20 AM       View Profile for Sudhir Iyer   Email Sudhir Iyer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Sudhir Iyer

JP
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11 posted 03-06-2003 11:54 AM       View Profile for JP   Email JP   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit JP's Home Page   View IP for JP

Wow, I'm amazed at the comments here. So many, with valuable and insightful opinions. Opinions which seem to be either one-sided, shortsighted, or strongly anit-whoever.

I must preface any comments I make by saying that yes, I am a registered republican, yes I did vote for 'W', and yes I have been in the military, I have seen action and I am a disabled vet as a result of that action.

Now with that said, let me say this about that:

God has nothing to do with what is happening in the world - He created us (assuming you believe in God) as thinking, feeling, reasoning beings and graced us with a gift called 'free will', to assume He would involve himself in the daily activities of man would negate the sanctity of free will and make our existence a sham.

War is unpleasant, many times unnecessary, and often the only resort. I personally feel that this country is rushing headlong into something we may be able to avoid.  Although, I believe that war with Iraq is inevitible, and honestly I think it is necessary, I also believe we should give the UN inspections more time - time to reveal what is really going on over there.  The problem with waiting is Saddam's continual production of biological weapons.

Do any of you think he is NOT producing these weapons? If you truly believe that then I feel for you and your loved ones - to be in the world with such a naive outlook can be dangerous.

The difficulty as I see it - the proverbial rock and a hardplace - is that the longer we wait to go in and destroy them, the better equipped they will be to unleash those biological weapons upon us in the ensuing war.  If we do nothing, Saddam will, no doubt about it, terrorize, invade, or unleash horrible mass destruction on the citizens of the world.  His end is absolutely necessary.

So what do we do?  Wait for concensus from the world? and while waiting give him time to produce more biological stockpiles?  Do we do nothing and wait for him to unleash the mother of all murders?  Do we rush in now and wipe them out and face the wrath and condemnation of the world?

No easy solution here.  If I were in the oval office, I would wait, just a bit, give the world notice that the US will follow their advice and wait, and pray that he does not attack someone in the mean time.  But make it clear in no uncertain terms that when we do go in, those allies who had us wait get to go in first, get the first taste of anthrax, small pox, serrin gas, or whatever else he's produced.

I'm almost worn out now...  But let me say this.  Those of you who seem to feel that Bush is a mindless puppet, or a mad fool bent on world war, I ask that you take a reality pill and look around you.  No other US president had an event like 911 to deal with, since Pearl Harbor (and look what we did then - war, wasn't it?), he is a man, with access to information that we do not have, reasons to act that we are not privvy to.  You appear to think that he is different than most of the people you live and work with everyday, that somehow he is one-dimensional, obsessed, or stupid.  Can you say that about any average person in the world?  If not them, why him?

Okay, one more thing.  Colin Powell.  I know him, I worked with him in the military and I can tell you the man is not single minded, nor a war hound.  He is an extremely talented, pragmatic, caring, intelligent man (who I would have voted for many times if he ran for president) he is the main advisor to our president on this matter and for me - if he feels military action is necessary and urgently needed, well, that is more than good enough for me.

JP

Yesterday is ash, tomorrow is smoke; only today does the fire burn.
Nil Desperandum, Fata viem invenient

Opeth
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12 posted 03-06-2003 12:45 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"Wow, I'm amazed at the comments here. So many, with valuable and insightful opinions. Opinions which seem to be either one-sided, shortsighted, or strongly anit-whoever."

~ So JP, tell me, out of those 3 types of opinions, listed above, where does yours fall in?


JP
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13 posted 03-06-2003 12:55 PM       View Profile for JP   Email JP   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit JP's Home Page   View IP for JP

All three actually

To begin with, we all agree that everything I say is valuable and insightful, and since I pride myself on my objectivity, my opinions are by default, onesided - my side.  Since I am merely human (no matter how I try to convice the world of my omnipotence) I can only see the present, remember the past and anticipate the future - so I am, again by default, short-sighted.  Finally, my opinions are most definitely strongly anti-closeminded, inflexible and opinionated without the benefit of study, people....

Yesterday is ash, tomorrow is smoke; only today does the fire burn.
Nil Desperandum, Fata viem invenient

wandering glider
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14 posted 03-06-2003 02:21 PM       View Profile for wandering glider   Email wandering glider   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for wandering glider

JP
You would vote for Colin Powell for president "many times".  You come from Chicago?  :-)

w.g.
Denise
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15 posted 03-06-2003 02:48 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Or maybe Philadelphia. Heck, even dead people vote here more than once!

I couldn't agree with you more, JP.

I think we all need to continue to pray for peace yet prepare ourselves for eventual war. With Saddam's continued violation of the resolutions that initiated the Gulf War cease fire, I don't see any other option.
Sudhir Iyer
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16 posted 03-07-2003 04:13 AM       View Profile for Sudhir Iyer   Email Sudhir Iyer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Sudhir Iyer

Greeneyes
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17 posted 03-07-2003 10:09 AM       View Profile for Greeneyes   Email Greeneyes   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Greeneyes

Personally I dont want war, and I have to believe that Bush is ""doing the right thing"  but it's no comfort knowing that, that might be the only way to "control" the mad man.....MHO


Greeneyes~

Take me where the tides start
So I can pull you into me

hush
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18 posted 03-08-2003 03:06 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Speaking of Bush and God...

JP said:

'God has nothing to do with what is happening in the world'

I dunno about that. G.W. seems to think God is a convinient fulcrum... how many times does he speak of God in relation to this war, and this country? It really bothers me that most people either don't oppose this, or support this, because they believe in God. I guess you can make the argument that the term 'God' is universal... I don't buy it, but the argument can be made. Okay, fine... but what about my right to support or oppose this war as an atheist? As an agnostic? As a pagan who believes in more than one god? As a member of a new-age goddess religion?  

It disturbs me that people don't recognize that he is pandering to a religious belief in order to win trust and support... apparently that's okay in today's post 9/11 world, much the same as it was okay during the height of the Red Scare. Gee whiz, it's great to see a return to those rational times, ain't it?

*sigh*
Local Rebel
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19 posted 03-09-2003 09:32 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

If I may propose an analogy:

A street gang manages to infiltrate the ranks of the police in Los Angeles.  The leader of the gang actually becomes the chief.  Over a period of time he accumulates more and more power until he is able to depose the mayor and take over the entire city.

He uses the machinations of the police force to impose his will on the people.  He rules them like a tyrant -- like a street gang leader.

The governor has the option to go in and restore proper order with the National Guard -- or leave the situation alone -- establish diplomatic relations with the street thug and allow him to continue to brutalize the citizens.

He knows that if he goes into the city that civilians may possibly die.  He also knows that some of his own forces will die.

It is his decision.

But is it his fault?

Let's look at a situation from real life now -- Chechen rebels take hostages at a theater in Moscow.  They say they are going to start killing the hostages if their demands are not met.  The Russian government responds with a gas that inadvertantly kills some of the hostages.  It was their decision to do something or do nothing.  But, was it their fault?

[This message has been edited by Local Rebel (03-09-2003 09:33 AM).]

Crazy Eddie
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20 posted 03-09-2003 11:56 AM       View Profile for Crazy Eddie   Email Crazy Eddie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Crazy Eddie


LR

Analogies are a handy tool they tend to simplify the question and point to seemingly obvious conclusions, unfortunately they have an inherent built in fault. The further the analogy wanders from the actual events that it is supposed to reflect the less likely that the conclusions reached will be of any use.

quote:
Chechen rebels take hostages at a theater in Moscow. They say they are going to start killing the hostages if their demands are not met. The Russian government responds with a gas that inadvertantly kills some of the hostages. It was their decision to do something or do nothing. But, was it their fault?


The obvious conclusion here is of course that it wasn’t their fault and based upon this analogy I’d have to agree with that conclusion. They didn’t create the situation they just reacted to it and any blame for any adverse outcome to that reaction has to be laid at the door of the originators of the situation. The question has to be asked though, is this an accurate refection of the current events? I don’t think it is but it isn’t hard to fix:

Chechen rebels take hostages at a theater in Moscow. They say they are going to start killing the hostages if their demands are not met. The Russian government, despite warnings that this action would result in high hostage fatalities, responds with a gas that kills some of the hostages. It was their decision to do something or do nothing. But, was it their fault?

Now we’re faced with a closer analogy and the possibility that it was their fault, if we fine tune the analogy a little more I think we can improve on that.

Chechen rebels take hostages at a theater in Moscow. They say they are going to start killing the hostages if their demands are not met. The Russian government, despite warnings that this action would result in high hostage fatalities and that there existed several potentially less fatal alternatives, responds with a gas that kills some of the hostages. It was their decision to use the gas or to find an alternative plan to end the siege or to do nothing. But, was it their fault?

The introduction of the third option shows that the Government under such circumstances would definitely be at fault, they didn’t cause the circumstances but their decision to use the gas definitely did cause the deaths of the hostages.

I should point out that I’m not suggesting the Russian Government had any warnings that the gas would cause fatalities, my additions to the analogy were inserted in an attempt to more accurately reflect the current situation.

Ron
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21 posted 03-09-2003 12:43 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
It is his decision.

But is it his fault?

Fault is a loaded word, with connotations of incrimination. Change it to responsibility and I suspect your answer would be very different.

Life sends every single one of us situations where all of our choices are undesirable ones. However, there are always multiple choices, even if we don't like what they are. It's our job to pick the least undesirable of the lot. And, yea, we have to accept responsibility for EVERY decision we make.

This point is only peripheral to Bush or Chechen rebels. But it's an important one.
Local Rebel
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22 posted 03-09-2003 02:17 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Very difficult Ron.  Fault is of course heavy duty -- but applicable to the overtone of the thread.  Responsibility isn't useless either.  But it is completely different. No limits.

But I always like the way you open up a thread.

Eddie are you crazy?

In the words of a certain secretary of defense -- we do not yet know what we do not know.

Dog is my co-pilot

Crazy Eddie
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23 posted 03-09-2003 02:30 PM       View Profile for Crazy Eddie   Email Crazy Eddie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Crazy Eddie


Yes I'm crazy and all Englishmen are liars.

Local Rebel
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24 posted 03-09-2003 02:43 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

As a great man once said (I think it was me) "The best way to take a hill is to start at the top."
 
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