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Passions in Poetry

Gay

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TracyStar1155
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0 posted 08-01-2002 12:05 AM       View Profile for TracyStar1155   Email TracyStar1155   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for TracyStar1155


This is a werid question, and i'm jw "how do u know if ur gay?"

bsquirrel
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1 posted 08-01-2002 12:29 AM       View Profile for bsquirrel   Email bsquirrel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for bsquirrel

Tough question. And if you're young/adolescent, the question is even tougher. There's natural wondering/experimentation/etc. that goes on when you're young when you start recognizing yourself as a sexual being and learning your own body and attached emotions. But my yardstick, anyway, is, do you think you can fall in love and spend your life with someone of the same sex? If the answer's no, you're probably just curious/experimenting, not gay.

Of course, that's only one of, I'm sure, thousands of definitions people have.

Get ready for others.

Mike

Said if I only could ...
-KB

Dark Enchantress
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2 posted 08-01-2002 01:43 AM       View Profile for Dark Enchantress   Email Dark Enchantress   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Dark Enchantress's Home Page   View IP for Dark Enchantress

When you're attracted to a person of the opposite sex in a way of having a relationship it's physical, emotional, and mental attraction, right?

Well it's the same when you're homosexual.

If the attraction is purely physical that doesn't make you a gay, lesbian, or bisexual. That just means you're curious and feeling experimental.



"if you know me so well then tell me which hand do I use?" Tori Amos

[This message has been edited by Dark Enchantress (08-01-2002 01:45 AM).]

StarrGazer
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3 posted 08-01-2002 02:29 PM       View Profile for StarrGazer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for StarrGazer

I cannot offer any technical definitions here, only offer my own comments:

If it feels good and right to you it can't be bad no matter what society says... Do what feels right to you.

I've known many gay people and it sometimes aggravates me that they have the stigmata of gay attatched to them... they are people just like anyone else and deserve the right to do what makes them happy. If being with someone of the same sex makes them happy - then more power to them.  

Janet Marie
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4 posted 08-01-2002 03:01 PM       View Profile for Janet Marie   Email Janet Marie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Janet Marie

I have had several close friends who were openly gay, and several who chose to live with it as a secret, confiding in a trusted few that they felt safe from judgement with.
Every one of them told me they became aware or in tune with the attraction and knew very early on, most of them said in grade school and Jr. High. They all said it was an emotional and confusing time for them, but they still "just knew" deep inside. Each situation of discovery and each persons acceptance of this in themselves is unique. My friends whose familys were supportive and understanding "came out" much sooner than those who had met with disapproval by those closest to them.
The ones that lived out their life true to who and what they were, unashamed,& unafraid of who might disaprove, were the ones that were the most emotionally healthy and successful.
A lesson for all of us, me thinks
Opeth
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5 posted 08-01-2002 03:02 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

I believe there are people who are actually born gay and there are those who choose to be, of course these people can also be bi-sexual.

Just like someone who is born with an abnormality (diseases, etc), so are the people who are truly homosexuals. It is an abnormality. However, that doesn't mean they should be chastised or deemed to be evil because they did not choose to be born that way.

[This message has been edited by Opeth (08-01-2002 03:04 PM).]

Christopher
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6 posted 08-01-2002 03:19 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

To define homosexuality as a disease seems fairly narrowminded to me. Contrary to what many people think, homosexuality goes far back in our history, and is not a new thing. There are examples in ancient history of same-same sexual relationships. In nature as well, there are examples of asexual, bisexual, and even transexual species.

Being of a different sexual orientation isn't good or bad - it's different. Just as my friend has blonde hair and i have brown, so is one person "straight" and another "gay." Neither is the "right" way to be, nor is one "sick," they are just different sides of a coin that show how diverse a culture can be.

bsquirrel
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7 posted 08-01-2002 04:10 PM       View Profile for bsquirrel   Email bsquirrel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for bsquirrel

Ouch on the abnormality thing! So we're saying that straight people are "normal" now? I missed th' memo.



Mikey, edited for content

Said if I only could ...
-KB

[This message has been edited by bsquirrel (08-01-2002 07:04 PM).]

Janet Marie
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8 posted 08-01-2002 04:30 PM       View Profile for Janet Marie   Email Janet Marie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Janet Marie

quote:
Just like someone who is born with an abnormality (diseases, etc), so are the people who are truly homosexuals. It is an abnormality

Says who?
Who decides for us all what is "normal" and not?
Dark Enchantress
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9 posted 08-01-2002 08:20 PM       View Profile for Dark Enchantress   Email Dark Enchantress   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Dark Enchantress's Home Page   View IP for Dark Enchantress

I don't see where the big issue is. But then again, I don't have anything tapping me on the shoulder saying "homosexuality is bad" or "it's just not normal". I think people like that are just narrowminded and ignorant. And no, I'm not sorry if I offended you ('you' being VERY general).

Some of the nicest, smartest, funniest, and most interesting people I've met are homosexual. They are just like everyone else and the only thing that is different is that they are into their own sex.

I've had a girlfriend and boyfriends and I can tell you that other than the physical stuff and the way people treat you it's the same. My on and off girlfriend is extremely shy and is quick to be offended by other people. Me on the other hand.. people can kiss it if they don't like me for petty differences.

Basically.. yes, in some cases it is a choice. In other cases it's not. But either way there's nothing wrong with it.

"if you know me so well then tell me which hand do I use?" Tori Amos

hush
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10 posted 08-01-2002 11:01 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

I read Opeth's calling it an abnormality as saying statistically, it is abnormal, because statistically, the majority of people choose (or are born) to be in hetero-sexual relationships.

However, one comment I cannot deal with is: 'However, that doesn't mean they should be chastised or deemed to be evil because they did not choose to be born that way.'

I hate, hate, HATE!!!! this rationalization. It's not defending the person, or the nature of their behavior, it's excusing it. Like... "So and so can't help it she's black, she was born that way." Or "You know so and so can't be held accountable for that wrong behavior- they were born that way."

This is why i will never defend a gay person with "He/she was born that way." It may be true (I'm not really sure) but the implication there is something I cannot deal with.

How do you know if you're gay? I don't know... probably when you are not only attracted to members of the same sex, but feel no attraction to those of the opposite.  

Who is John Galt?

Opeth
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11 posted 08-02-2002 08:23 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth


"To define homosexuality as a disease seems fairly narrowminded to me."


~ Who defined it as a disease? I certainly didn't call homosexuality A disease.

"Contrary to what many people think, homosexuality goes far back in our history, and is not a new thing. There are examples in ancient history of same-same sexual relationships."


~ Many abnormalities go way back in history, so what's your point?

"In nature as well, there are examples of asexual, bisexual, and even transexual species."


~ Yes, there are abnormalities in nature and other species.

"Being of a different sexual orientation isn't good or bad - it's different."


~ Yes, I agree.

"Just as my friend has blonde hair and i have brown, so is one person "straight" and another "gay."


~ Your analogy does not work. Having blonde hair is not an abnormality.

"Neither is the "right" way to be,..."


~ There is no right or wrong when dealing with abnormalities.

[This message has been edited by Opeth (08-02-2002 08:23 AM).]

Opeth
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12 posted 08-02-2002 08:25 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"Ouch on the abnormality thing! So we're saying that straight people are "normal" now? I missed th' memo."

~ Many "straight" people have abnormalities, however with regards to only their heterosexuality, they are normal.

Opeth
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13 posted 08-02-2002 08:26 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"Says who?
Who decides for us all what is "normal" and not?"


~ Says the laws of nature.
Opeth
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14 posted 08-02-2002 08:35 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"...I don't have anything tapping me on the shoulder saying "homosexuality is bad" or "it's just not normal". I think people like that are just narrowminded and ignorant."

~ Do not confuse ignorance with rational thought. Being abnormal does not make one "bad."

"And no, I'm not sorry if I offended you ('you' being VERY general)."


~ Well, you didn't offend me.

"Some of the nicest, smartest, funniest, and most interesting people I've met are homosexual."


~ Where is Hush when you need her...This sounds like when people would say...well just substitute "black" for "homosexual."

It is all cool. Smile.
Opeth
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15 posted 08-02-2002 08:40 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"I read Opeth's calling it an abnormality as saying statistically, it is abnormal, because statistically, the majority of people choose (or are born) to be in hetero-sexual relationships."

~ I do believe it is genetic. However, that argument is still open for debate, as many Christians would believe that a homosexual cna change their lifestyle if they accept Jesus as their Saviour.

"However, one comment I cannot deal with is: 'However, that doesn't mean they should be chastised or deemed to be evil because they did not choose to be born that way.'"


~ Deal with it.

"I hate, hate, HATE!!!! this rationalization. It's not defending the person, or the nature of their behavior, it's excusing it."


~ With regards to being born as a homosexual, that is not excusing it, so I am missing your point here.

"Like... "So and so can't help it she's black, she was born that way." Or "You know so and so can't be held accountable for that wrong behavior- they were born that way."


~ Not the same thing, you are mixing the actions taken by a person or a group of persons with the abnormality of being born homosexual. Being born black is not an abnormality. Being held accountable for one's action, whether white, black, homosexual, etc is logical.

Opeth
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16 posted 08-02-2002 08:45 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

So if homosexuality is not an abnormality, and again, I am talking about those who are born that way as I believe many people partake in homosexual actions that do so only because they WANT to, they enjoy it...

Is beastiality okay? Sure, it must be. For who are we to say what is normal. If a man or woman is attracted to an animal, so be it.

How about a person who is a pedophile? They should have rights too. Like Janet Marie said who are we to say what is normal?

Think about it. You can't have it both ways.
If you defend homosexuality as normal, how can you logically believe that pedophiles and those who practice in beastiality are not normal?  Please, defend your position...interesting.
Duncan
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17 posted 08-02-2002 08:51 AM       View Profile for Duncan   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Duncan

How about we let this guy keep talking to himself.  Kinda fun watchin him dig his own hole...just to fall into it.
hush
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18 posted 08-02-2002 09:03 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

'~ With regards to being born as a homosexual, that is not excusing it, so I am missing your point here.'

Yes, it is. It's the "they can't help it, they were born that way" excuse.

'that doesn't mean they should be chastised or deemed to be evil because they did not choose to be born that way.'

Please explain to me if and how I am misconstruing your statement here- because I definitely read "they can't help it, they were born that way" between the lines here- if that's not what you meant, exactly what did you mean?

'~ Not the same thing, you are mixing the actions taken by a person or a group of persons with the abnormality of being born homosexual. Being born black is not an abnormality.'

Yes- but keep in mind that there are some people who feel racism and notice behaviors that either are more common, or they perceive to be more common in specific races of people, and they use the same rationalization. For example, a white person in the 1950's or 60's might not hate black people, or want to see them predjudiced against because "They can't help it they're not as intelligent- they're black." That is an observation (albeit and ignorant one) based on behavior.

'Being held accountable for one's action, whether white, black, homosexual, etc is logical.'

Why do gay people have to be held accountable for their actions in ways that heterosexual people don't? Yes- they do have the responsibility to tell their partners about any STDs they may be carrying... but in a way, aren't they absolved of a responsibility that heterosexual people have- the pregnancy issue? To my way of thinking, they have less to be held accountable for in that sense... but why did you mention "being held accountable for actions?" I'm not even sure what you mean- what do you mean?

'If you defend homosexuality as normal, how can you logically believe that pedophiles and those who practice in beastiality are not normal?'

Homosexuals function, sexually... with consent, in the same way that heterosexual people do. I hesitate to define what is 'normal,' but what about that which is lawful? Homosexual and heterosexual sex are legal, while rape by both groups is a crime- and in the case of bestiality, it is rape of the animal by default (how can an animal consent to sex with a human? I guess one can rationalize that if the animal acts on its own volition, without being physically forced, it is passive consent, and therefore not animal abuse... but a police officer can not receive a verbal response if he/she asks an animal if it willfully consented to the sexual act.) and in the case of pedophilia... most children who are victims are probably forced. Even if a child consents, it doesn't matter-statutary rape. Illegal.

Who is John Galt?

[This message has been edited by hush (08-02-2002 09:06 AM).]

Janet Marie
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19 posted 08-02-2002 09:46 AM       View Profile for Janet Marie   Email Janet Marie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Janet Marie

quote:
How about a person who is a pedophile? They should have rights too. Like Janet Marie said who are we to say what is normal?



Please do not twist my words to make your assumptions and opinions. Go back and look at my question. I simply asked you who decides what is "normal and abnormal" based on your first reply to this...in one of your above posts you attempt to answer me with a vague "Laws of Nature" comment. Then you come back and attach my name to your pedophile statement by misquoting me and tainting the innocence of the topic question of being Gay by attaching issues like beastiality & pedophilia.  
This kind of unfair manipulation of the debate is exactly why these subjects cant ever be discussed objectively.

But I do so thank you for enlightening me ...
here I was afraid this was gonna be just another Jerry Falwell sermon.
Opeth
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20 posted 08-02-2002 10:23 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"Please explain to me if and how I am misconstruing your statement here- because I definitely read "they can't help it, they were born that way" between the lines here- if that's not what you meant, exactly what did you mean?"

~ They can't help it in that it is an abnormality. This is important to realize because many people label homosexuals as deviants, or that they are evil, or that it is wrong to be homosexual, when all of those epithets are incorrect and should not be associated with its abnormality.

"Yes- but keep in mind that there are some people who feel racism and notice behaviors that either are more common, or they perceive to be more common in specific races of people, and they use the same rationalization. For example, a white person in the 1950's or 60's might not hate black people, or want to see them predjudiced against because "They can't help it they're not as intelligent- they're black." That is an observation (albeit and ignorant one) based on behavior."


~ I agree. It is a stereotype, and stereotypes are unacceptable.

"Why do gay people have to be held accountable for their actions in ways that heterosexual people don't?"


~ You lost me here. I never said they should be. Actions are actions, being born a homosexual is not an action.

"...but why did you mention "being held accountable for actions?" I'm not even sure what you mean- what do you mean?"


~ There must be a misunderstanding here, you mentioned about "behaviours" which I took as actions.
Opeth
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21 posted 08-02-2002 10:31 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"Please do not twist my words to make your assumptions and opinions."

~ I did not intend to twist your words, and since you took it that way, I will apologize to you...sorry.  

"Go back and look at my question. I simply asked you who decides what is "normal and abnormal" based on your first reply to this..."


~ Yes, that was my original intention. Who is to say if one is born sexually attracted to animals that that is normal or not?  My answer again would be, "The laws of nature."

"...in one of your above posts you attempt to answer me with a vague "Laws of Nature" comment."


~ Yes, that is somewhat vague, but still it is logical. For a man and a woman, by nature, are sexually compatible.

"But I do so thank you for enlightening me..."


~ I don't know if there is sarcasm in this statement...the Interent, a whole new way to study interpersonal communication.

"...here I was afraid this was gonna be just another Jerry Falwell sermon."


~ Now that guy is narrow-minded.
Opeth
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22 posted 08-02-2002 12:42 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

I missed this part...

"Homosexuals function, sexually... with consent, in the same way that heterosexual people do. I hesitate to define what is 'normal,' but what about that which is lawful?"


~ That is another issue: lawful. There are unlawful sexual acts that can occur between even heterosexuals.


"Homosexual and heterosexual sex are legal, while rape by both groups is a crime"


~ Legal, but with different "rights." As for rape, of course that is a crime, no matter if you are heterosexual or homosexual.

"- and in the case of bestiality, it is rape of the animal by default (how can an animal consent to sex with a human?"


~ It is? Animals are protected by rape laws? What if a male animal is having sex with a female human...who is raping whom?

The point of my bringing up beastiality and pedophilia was to stricly deal with normal/abnormal issue only.  A person may be born with various sexual preferences, some legal, some not, however, the norm is heterosexuality, but that doesn't make homosexuality wrong, it only makes it abnormal.
Ron
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23 posted 08-02-2002 01:36 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

The problem, of course, is that abnormal is a loaded word.

It can simply mean "not typical, usual, or regular," but it also has clinical implications and it most certainly has negative social connotations. Telling someone that "willingly being in the military is abnormal" may be technically correct, but the choice of words also reveals something about the speaker's belief system. Since writers presumably choose their words with care, one might presume there was a reason this one was selected, a reason that goes beyond technical definitions?

Hush, you should start a new thread about the assumption of responsibility for personal behavior. At what point, if any, are the actions of the individual no longer the fault of the individual? It's very peripheral to this topic, but DEFINITELY worth exploring.
Dark Enchantress
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24 posted 08-02-2002 07:17 PM       View Profile for Dark Enchantress   Email Dark Enchantress   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Dark Enchantress's Home Page   View IP for Dark Enchantress

Me:"...I don't have anything tapping me on the shoulder saying "homosexuality is bad" or "it's just not normal". I think people like that are just narrowminded and ignorant."

Opeth: "Do not confuse ignorance with rational thought. Being abnormal does not make one "bad.""

I meant it as two separate issues. I don't believe that abnormalities necessarily make a person "bad". I'm really not that black and white I can assure you. I just meant that for many different, sometimes entirely separate reasons people have something against homosexuals. I personally don't have any of those reasons tapping me on the shoulder as I said before.

Me:"Some of the nicest, smartest, funniest, and most interesting people I've met are homosexual."

Opeth~ "Where is Hush when you need her...This sounds like when people would say...well just substitute "black" for "homosexual.""

I just used that to emphasize the fact that homosexuals that I know are just like regular people. (As I said directly after that, but you didn't quote it.) I mean obviously homosexuals are not the only people who have these qualities.

I'm not making any excuses for the way people are. You're born with it, you're not. You're damned, you're not. You're abnormal, you're not. Either way - homosexuals exist and as long as it's not hurting anyone psychologically or physically, why does it matter? Now granted, there's the whole issue with AIDS, but even though (from what I know of.. I could easilly be wrong) it occurs commonly in gays it also effects everyone else. I don't know what I'm getting at. I'm sure you all can tell. It sounded okay in my head.. I promise..  

Oh by the way Opeth.. I really wasn't trying to offend you or anyone. I know you said you weren't offended but I wanted to clarify. I actually wasn't speaking to anyone directly. I think I was in a bad mood. Who knows. Doesn't matter.


"if you know me so well then tell me which hand do I use?" Tori Amos

[This message has been edited by Dark Enchantress (08-02-2002 07:28 PM).]

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