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Passions in Poetry

Gay

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Anvrill
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25 posted 08-02-2002 07:22 PM       View Profile for Anvrill   Email Anvrill   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Anvrill's Home Page   View IP for Anvrill

Awright, here's my bit.

Because of the current societal attitude towards homosexuality, a lot of people don't realize that it used to be as common if not as common as heterosexuality. (Well, for men anyway; women were too busy being 'put in their place' to do much else.)

Go back to the excess of Rome and Greece. Inter-gender relationships were a trend. All the rich people were doing it, all the smart people were doing it. The military and the Olympians were both encouraged to do it (though the military and Olympians were encouraged to not get near the females, for fear that it would break their concentration or whatever).

Back then, men sleeping with men had to do more with status than sexual preference. Their wives/concubines/whatever were asides, but if they messed around with another guy, they were messing around with an equal. The reasoning's oogie, huh?

I don't know how it got turned around so majorly. I mean, I know the Brits were really stodgy about a lot of things, but our current society owes a hell of a lot to ancient Greece and Rome.

Ah well. Anyway.

I don't think you're born into it. I think it has a lot to do with what you've gone through in your own life. If you're a guy who's only ever been left in emotional shreds by girls (be it your family, friends, intimate partners, anything), it would be natural to turn to your fellow males for solace and love. Same with girls who've only ever been hurt by guys.

Another thing is if you fall in love with one person of your own sex. Friends for years, suddenly you realize it's not friendship you're feeling. That would really broaden your horizons on the boundaries imposed on love.

I've never asked any of the gay guys I've known how/when they knew... But they were flamin'-proud, and all rather hot. And I've only ever known bi girls.

One pet peeve I have here...

Lesbian chic.

Gay men will get beaten within an inch of their life by homophobic red necks. Same red necks will start drooling at the thought of two chicks making out... It doesn't seem at all fair to me! And I don't know any girls who get all hot over the thought of guys making out. They're more like "aw, isn't that so cute?"

Anyway, I'm not sure if that rant had any point at all... Just had to babble out my random points of view.

The loneliest words you'll ever know:
if only, if only it were so.

JS

Christopher
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26 posted 08-03-2002 02:31 AM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

I concur with Ron - added to that, you used "disease" as an example. Assuming it was used in a negative manner was my drawn conclusion based on what was presented.

perhaps - for me - a better word choice would be common. It's still not too common to find gay/bisexually orienteted people. the reasoning can go in another thread, but one thing that is clear is that these sexual preferences are becoming more and more common as time goes by. again.

it USED to be normal (as spoken above) for same sex couples to exits. one might even argue the concept of normality in those cases, as it was culturally accepted.

personally, my only problem one way or another is with anyone who is defined by their sexuality. no matter who it is - it's still a person. you don't say "look, there's chris, my straight friend." i'm just a person. so is anyone else. sexual preferences aren't the person, though i see people defined that way all the time.
hush
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Posts 1693
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27 posted 08-03-2002 03:29 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Okay, I think there's been some confusion on my points about responsibility.

Opeth's original post here stated 'However, that doesn't mean they should be chastised or deemed to be evil because they did not choose to be born that way.'

I took this to mean "It's not their fault they're gay- they couldn't help it, they were born that way." Opeth tells me that he means they can't help it that homosexuality is an 'abnormality.' (in the strictly common/uncommon sense.) I agree.... but I don't agree that that's what the original statement is saying- Maybe Opeth would phrase it differently if he said it again? I don't know... in my reply to his post, I said:

'I hate, hate, HATE!!!! this rationalization. It's not defending the person, or the nature of their behavior, it's excusing it. Like... "So and so can't help it she's black, she was born that way." Or "You know so and so can't be held accountable for that wrong behavior- they were born that way." '

and he replied

'~ Not the same thing, you are mixing the actions taken by a person or a group of persons with the abnormality of being born homosexual. Being born black is not an abnormality. Being held accountable for one's action, whether white, black, homosexual, etc is logical.'

Okay- here's where the confusion began. I think he thought I meant that the person in question would be absolved of all behaviors/actions because of the 'abnormality' or default excuse- like "Joe hit his mom, but he can't help it because he was born gay." I meant this excuse system to applied only to the behaviors being criticized, like: "Mia can't help it she speaks in eubonics. She was born black." (this begs the question of why eubonics and blackness are such horrible things.) OR "Fred can't help it he kissed another man- he was born gay." (Again, begging the obvious question of why kissing a man is behavior that needs to be rationalized somehow- it can't be guiltless in it's own right.)

My question isn't whether a person stops being responsible for their own actions- it's whether one person has the right to criticize another's actions, and why the people in question have to be defended by getting them off the hook with failsafes like "He couldn't help it" rather than by logic and defense of one person's right to feel romantic and sexual interest to another person of the same sex. After all, logic dictates that if I kiss my boyfriend... then shouldn't Bob be able to kiss his boyfriend?

To put it another way- Ron said:

'At what point, if any, are the actions of the individual no longer the fault of the individual?'

This is not what I'm discussing at all. My issue is more along the lines of:

At what point, if any, are the actions of an individual subject to a)public review and derision b)rationalization of the behavior that causes the derision by those who feel the disdain and c) the denial of the individual to participate in said activities unharrassed by others?

Maybe that helps. And maybe I will start the thread... in philosophy.

Who is John Galt?

Opeth
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28 posted 08-04-2002 04:44 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Homosexuality is abnormal with regards to the genetic process of the creation of life.

This statement can be debated by those who believe that homosexuality is based on "choice" - an action by an individual to partake in homosexual acts makes one a homosexual.  Many christians, among other religious groups, believe this view over the genetically inherent view.

IMO, this abnormality is not "wrong."  It is just an abnormality among many other "unwrong" abnormalities: diseases, birth defects, etc.

However, as I have previously stated, some people do partake in homosexual activities not because they were born with the abnormality of finding only the same gender sexually appealing, but because they choose to try homosexual act/s.  Whether their choice is right or wrong is open for debate.

As for people being responsible for their actions, here is my quote for the present time...  

"This is the day and age when we blame everyone else for all of our problems."

People should be held accountable for their actions when such actions break justifiable laws or are detrimental to society.

[This message has been edited by Opeth (08-04-2002 04:48 PM).]

bsquirrel
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29 posted 08-05-2002 05:57 PM       View Profile for bsquirrel   Email bsquirrel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for bsquirrel

Where is your biological proof of any particular sexual leanings being an abnormality? Don't just pull statistics from the sky of Common Knowledge -- write them large. Show me actual, medical, scientific proof from varied sources coming to the same irrefutable conclusion: Gay Not Normal.

To me, it seems confused for a speaker to claim there is nothing wrong with the other side, and yet state that the other side is a biological abnormality. It's a fracture in thinking. A break from logic. A point where two lines of differing, dithering reason smash into themselves and break apart.

By one saying "You're abnormal," isn't the implication "And I'm not. So what's your problem?"
serenity blaze
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30 posted 08-05-2002 06:46 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

hmmmm. Someone correct me if I am wrong (and I KNOW y'will) but I believe the original question did not ask for an opinion poll regarding sexual preference. I believe the question was how to know if you are gay.

I did once ask this question of a gay friend, and she answered if you have to ask, then you are not. I recently told this story to a forum friend, and at the risk of ruining my reputation (heh heh) I'm willing to tell a few thousand of my closest friends!

I discovered one night, that a close friend of mine was a lesbian. (Um, that "discovery" was after witnessing her accepting a date with a woman. I was kind of put out and truly surprised.

"How come you never told me?"

"You never asked."

And then, of course, I HAD to ask--"well, how come you never hit on ME?" (pathetic, ain't I?)

Her answer? "You are not gay."

I asked, "How do you know? I don't even know that for sure." So she kissed me. And then said, "Y'see? You didn't know what to do with your hands."

She was right.

smiling, and no, it did not affect our friendship in the slightest. And as to whether or not this is normal? I suggest that it is difficult to ascertain normal behavior regarding sexual orientation, as it is a subject that MOST folks regard as "secret."  In that particular regard of being "open" about the subject, I guess you could say that I am abnormal. Fine with me. "Normal" people scare the hell outta me.

Peace to you. Either way, all will be well.
bsquirrel
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31 posted 08-05-2002 06:56 PM       View Profile for bsquirrel   Email bsquirrel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for bsquirrel

It's always nice to read yr posts, Sen. It gives ocean salt and breeze to the blueness of the screen.

Said if I only could ...
-KB

Toerag
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since 07-29-99
Posts 5839
Ala bam a


32 posted 08-06-2002 10:12 AM       View Profile for Toerag   Email Toerag   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toerag

I would have to agree with most of what Opeth has written....nobody will ever convince me there's anything "normal" about homosexuality....it's not normal, it's sad, very sad. If that were the "norm"...there'd be nobody here to be gay, and no one to write all the lovely poetry....My brother in law, has a master's in psych...and is also "gay" tells me most every single homosexual has another problem...either depression or worse. (including himself), it is not normal, it's a probleml. And Ron has some very good points...in today's society however...just because someone has an abnormality,  breaks the law, or is a stalker of young children, or rapes or murders or does anything hideous...this society has tried to make "excuses" for every single thing a person does....'Oh they're born that way, or they had a terrible upbringing, or 'Drugs made them do this' or they just plain weren't in their right mind..Everyone has to make choices, they all have that option, some make bad ones, some good ones, some learn by these choices, some don't..This is sad too...anyone can do anything these days but it's not their fault...it's always somebody elses and they're not to blame...where does that leave the victim...SOL I guess....

[This message has been edited by Toerag (08-06-2002 11:50 AM).]

Opeth
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since 12-13-2001
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The Ravines


33 posted 08-06-2002 12:14 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth


"Where is your biological proof of any particular sexual leanings being an abnormality? Don't just pull statistics from the sky of Common Knowledge -- write them large. Show me actual, medical, scientific proof from varied sources coming to the same irrefutable conclusion: Gay Not Normal."

~ I don't have the time to perform research for you.  Find out for yourself, like I have done(hint - for easy research, go to either Yahoo or MSN, and type "homosexual genetics abnormality").  As for your "irrefutable" remark, you must not of understood my previous reply; there are also those who have introduced other research that may prove the opposite, but I have already stated that fact, so let's not digress.

"To me, it seems confused for a speaker to claim there is nothing wrong with the other side, and yet state that the other side is a biological abnormality."


~ I can't help you with your feelings of confusion. The abnormality is a separate issue. The belief of any "wrongness" of the abnormality is debatable.

"It's a fracture in thinking. A break from logic."


~ That is your opinion. In my opinion, the "thinking" is quite logical.

"A point where two lines of differing, dithering reason smash into themselves and break apart."


~ IMO, I find that statement to be written rather dramatically.

By one saying "You're abnormal," isn't the implication "And I'm not. So what's your problem?"


~ No.

[This message has been edited by Opeth (08-06-2002 12:16 PM).]

Toerag
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Ala bam a


34 posted 08-06-2002 12:17 PM       View Profile for Toerag   Email Toerag   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toerag

If gay is normal...where would life reproduce from?...Common sense is normal too. (Though not all have any)
Opeth
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35 posted 08-06-2002 12:23 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"I would have to agree with most of what Opeth has written....nobody will ever convince me there's anything "normal" about homosexuality....it's not normal, it's sad, very sad."

~ I don't think it is sad.

"If that were the "norm"...there'd be nobody here to be gay, and no one to write all the lovely poetry."


~ What? The first part of this statement makes absolutely no sense to me.  As for the second part, are you stereotyping gay people as writers of lovely poetry?

"...My brother in law, has a master's in psych...and is also "gay" tells me most every single homosexual has another problem...either depression or worse. (including himself),"


~ I wonder why? Is it the genetic abnormality of sexual preference or having to live in a society in which persecution for having thoese tendencies exist?

"Everyone has to make choices, they all have that option, some make bad ones, some good ones, some learn by these choices, some don't..This is sad too...anyone can do anything these days but it's not their fault...it's always somebody elses and they're not to blame...where does that leave the victim."


~ I agree. All a criminal needs is money and some good lawyers. Look at OJ or Ted Kennedy.
Opeth
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36 posted 08-06-2002 12:24 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

"Common sense is normal too. (Though not all have any)"

~ I am not so sure about that.
bsquirrel
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37 posted 08-06-2002 12:29 PM       View Profile for bsquirrel   Email bsquirrel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for bsquirrel

Opeth,

Since you refuse to prove to me your point of view with actual documentation (as you're too busy to show me -- funny, I always thought the burden of proof is on the instigator of the conversation ... hmmm), I courteously withdraw myself from this conversation and will let you talk to the wall and your Norwegian metal hereafter. I'm sure all the answers of life can be found there.

See ya!

Mikey, who is rifely Abnormal with Marfan's Syndrome (look that up, if you will -- I'm too busy to show you ... or care)

Said if I only could ...
-KB

Opeth
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38 posted 08-06-2002 12:34 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

Well, you thought wrong. Later.
Toerag
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since 07-29-99
Posts 5839
Ala bam a


39 posted 08-06-2002 12:40 PM       View Profile for Toerag   Email Toerag   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toerag

LOL...Opeth, I think you just love
to argue with anyone and hate bad
commercials!!!....It is sad, talk
to most anyone with this "abnormality"...
Besides, I said I agree with "most" of
what you said...I don't think anyone could
agree with everything you say about anything,
and if they did, you'd argue...LOL....

I'm not stereotyping anyone...but if normal were "homosexual"...we'd definitely have a
decrease in population, maybe China needs an influx of gays?....Whatever?

You wonder why?....Mostly because most, not all, are very unhappy with their "abnormality"...and yes, persecution has alot to do with it....you're right there.

And yes, good lawyers go a long way...I worked for a well known rock band in the late 60's early 70's....we had these "cards" we were told to carry with us...and if we ever got into trouble, drugs or most anything else, we were to call the number on that card and we would be released within 24 hours without so much as a record of being arrested....!!! Money and high priced retainers go a long way don't they...THIS IS SAD TOO!!!...You're a character Opeth...but I do enjoy reading your banter!!
Opeth
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40 posted 08-06-2002 12:51 PM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

lol ~ That is what I get for majoring in the studies of multiple disciplines with a concentration in critical thinking. As a Public Administration Grad student, I still find myself debating people on either side of an argument (especially in political science classes) because I do possess the ability (learned skills) to separate: issues, facts from opinions, logical reasoning from emotional reasoning (rational & irrational), sound from unsound. Also, I can remain almost entirely objective with regards to just about any type of situation.  
Dark Enchantress
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meet Morgana


41 posted 08-06-2002 01:21 PM       View Profile for Dark Enchantress   Email Dark Enchantress   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Dark Enchantress's Home Page   View IP for Dark Enchantress

"homosexuality....it's not normal, it's sad, very sad" Did I read that correctly? Did I?

I'm hoping that what you mean is that homosexuality is sad because of the way it is often treated in our society. Sad because of the rejection from peers and sometimes even family when the truth about a particular individual "comes out". I'm really hoping that's what you mean as opposed to a judgment that the existence of homosexuality in our world is sad.

About the whole choosing thing.. hell, I don't know. Nobody really can know I don't think. I mean why would someone CHOOSE to be abnormal? Why would someone choose a lifestyle which can be a happy one, but will be laced with pain and rejection? I'm sure there are reasons why someone would (which are probably psychologically based.. it could be anything really), but I really don't think that everyone chooses to be homosexual. Some.. or even a lot of people? Sure. All of them? No.

"if you know me so well then tell me which hand do I use?" Tori Amos

Toerag
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Posts 5839
Ala bam a


42 posted 08-06-2002 04:15 PM       View Profile for Toerag   Email Toerag   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toerag

Yep, it's sad that someone has to live like that..and yes, sad because of the way they're treated, and yes, in most cases, sad they CHOSE that path or can't help it.......and it's sad they will mostly all be sad themselves thru out life....I have relatives, friends and associates that are gay, I've met several very famous "rock" stars, that have everything, or means for every "material" thing possible, but are so unhappy and sad that they are not able to change....all of the above...I feel sorry for anyone with problems, yes abnormalties, that involve not being able to live life to it's fullest, family, children, happiness, or whatever makes them happy...if a gay lifestyle makes one happy...more power to them...but I've not met one that can honestly tell me they were happy with their lifestyle...NOT ONE...,....

[This message has been edited by Toerag (08-06-2002 05:27 PM).]

Opeth
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43 posted 08-07-2002 09:38 AM       View Profile for Opeth   Email Opeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Opeth

I only read up to this point...

"I courteously withdraw myself from this conversation..."


...and didn't read the rest of this reply.

"...and will let you talk to the wall..."

~ First of all, I am not speaking, I am typing. Second of all, if I am only "typing" to "the wall" then "the wall" has ears because it did reply.

"...and your Norwegian metal hereafter. I'm sure all the answers of life can be found there."


~ LOL! What does "Norwegian metal" have to do with any of this matter? I think you threw an apple in the cherry cart.
serenity blaze
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44 posted 08-07-2002 11:49 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

groan...I am not a lesbian--but after reading the expressed male sensitivity in this thread, I am certainly understanding the inclination. (Um...with a couple of noticeable exceptions, Mike. )
hush
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since 05-27-2001
Posts 1693
Ohio, USA


45 posted 08-07-2002 12:33 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

LOL... I didn't realize that gay people are predominantly unhappy. I guess maybe that's because I only know a few, casually- but I do know a lot of people who have had/continue to have bisexual experiences, and it doesn't seem to hurt them any. I don't really see what the problem is... period. If somebody is gay.... let them be gay. This whole conversation reminds me of a very strongly Christian woman I spoke to recently who said "My best friend's a Muslim (sigh)" the same way she would have said "My best friend had cancer." I guess I just wish people would stop treating lifestyle differences as a sad and unneccessary burden or evil even, but... some people, due to their own lifestyle and beliefs, think this way- and there isn't anything I can do to stop it... except express myself as logically and sincerely as possible... ah well...

Who is John Galt?

serenity blaze
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46 posted 08-07-2002 03:48 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Just an observation, but I noticed that there are very few happy heterosexuals as well. and Toe? Come here to New Orleans, dawlin'. I'll introduce you to some homosexuals who are happy--with their sexual orientation. I find that their unhappiness is related to a longing for finding/maintaining a fulfilling relationship--hmmm....THEY ARE SORT OF LIKE PEOPLE THAT WAY. Their unhappiness tends to be compounded by a constant struggle for acceptance in the prejudice of certain members of  *ahem* polite society.

After considering the divorce rate (I'm sure Opeth will be able to quote the statistic) it kind of makes them seem almost human, doesn't it?

Forgive the sarcasm, truly. I'm not even actually angry, I just consider a couple of the attitudes here sort of nauseating, and yes...SAD.

ah...Mikey? Sometimes there's just nothing y'can say....so this was it for me. I think I'll go bask in someone's STUPIDITY for awhile....lack of intelligence does not bother me, but a hard heart of intolerance DOES.
Toerag
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since 07-29-99
Posts 5839
Ala bam a


47 posted 08-07-2002 04:20 PM       View Profile for Toerag   Email Toerag   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toerag

Well blazing Serenity....I've lived in Nawlin's dahling...and have known many of the trans and homosexuals...met many at Miss B. Raitt's house....yep....I liked EVERYONE I met there except for a few drunk rock stars, didn't question what they did in their bedroom, and could care less...(besides my video camera's not working right now anyhow)....but take the "point' given or disregard...makes no difference...but statistics show very few homosexuals are happy with themselves.....you can blame the cause on attitudes from others, poor self esteem, maybe a religious background that has enforced the idea that it's a sin, I have no idea....I have no ill will towards anyone...particularly those that do what they want, don't force their beliefs on me.....I've fought for my country and the freedom that allows anyone to do anything within the legal limits of the law....and I surely wouldn't take that "right" away from anyone....I don't agree with it, and yes, I think it's sad....but don't have any hate towards gays or even Howard Stern!!!! LOL....Have a great day....now go eat some cajun red beans and rice and chase it down with some Jax beer.....see ya...Toe
Ron
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48 posted 08-07-2002 04:22 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Blatantly off-topic posts are being removed ...
serenity blaze
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since 02-02-2000
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49 posted 08-07-2002 04:24 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

hugs to ya Toe...smile, I'm surprised we haven't met...New Orleans did not prove too healthy for Bonnie, did it?

and yes, I've a wee bit of a temper (which makes the additional fire to my name most appropriate, doncha think?)

My concern is for the person who originated this thread, and that is all. I apologize if I lumped you into a category of the insensitive, but please, let's try to keep in mind, that someone asked a question in confusion, and in my opinion, did not need to be intimidated by labels of "abnormality" and the promise of an unhappy life should this person indeed, discover that they are homosexual. now? nuff said?
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