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Passions in Poetry

Replica of passions...

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doreen peri
Member Rara Avis
since 05-25-99
Posts 8028

25 posted 01-07-2002 08:20 PM       View Profile for doreen peri   Email doreen peri   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for doreen peri

just sounds to me like a different type of objective for those forums

sounds like the webmaster wants the participants to get into evaluating the poetry some.

nothing wrong with that

there's a different atmosphere at every place we go to  in this world and that includes the cyber world and yeah, maybe you aren't comfortable with that type of setup, so you stay here because you're more comfortable, and that's great, but probably the regular participants over there get something valuable out of the experience which is why they go there

takes a lot of variety in the world

who is she to set such rules? well, she's the webmaster, from what i've gathered from your post, which makes it her home and she can set up any kind of rules she wants, my guess, in order to encourage the participants to get deeper into the poetry than the surface level.

it all depends on what you want but i don't think there's anything wrong with a webmaster establishing rules to create a place which he or she envisions will offer an atmosphere focusing on whatever goals they have in mind.

ron did it. you like it here. that's cool! very cool! but i also remember a time when we both loved it over at the scroll and at that time, both of us were into critique. people change. goals change. writing goals change.... all that...

right now, i hate critique. I dont think i'll ever want to do it again!!! and i mean ever!! lol!! but i do love it when someone analyzes my piece and goes deeper and tells me what they got out of it, which lines worked for them, etc....

again, it all depends on what you want out of the experience... *shrug*.... there is value in both this venue and that one, as far as I can tell from your post, unless participants are being ridiculed or something.... now, if that's how you felt, then maybe i'm off base here because friendly, gentle, encouragement to participate in whatever the goals of the site are is a good thing, but putting someone down isn't.

I'd be able to give a more accurate assessment if i had the URL to the site you went to.... i'm only posting this response based on how i interpreted your post here....

all i can say is, i think it's good to have a wide variety of venues with different purposes becasue there are a wide variety of writers who are at various stages in their writing experience and it all can be valuable

ok, i'm done... hehe... thanks for listening to my take on it...  
since 02-23-2001
Posts 489
Sunshine Coast

26 posted 01-07-2002 10:35 PM       View Profile for Bec   Email Bec   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bec


Check your email


"Poetry and Hums aren't things which you get, they're things which get you. And all you can do is to go where they can find you."

Member Elite
since 06-26-2000
Posts 3219
Blue Heaven

27 posted 01-07-2002 11:41 PM       View Profile for Jamie   Email Jamie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Jamie's Home Page   View IP for Jamie

What I find really interesting is the fact nobody posted the url out here in the open for everyone to see. Why the secrecy?????
Just curious.
Deputy Moderator 5 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 08-26-2001
Posts 3414
South Florida

28 posted 01-08-2002 12:43 AM       View Profile for RosePetal   Email RosePetal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for RosePetal

Whoa, i didnt think my little venting post was going to get this much feedback, hehe.
Well, Jamie, I didn't think it was a good idea to publicy announce the site and bash them like that..but..hey since your asking for it, its
go explore if you wish : )

Yeah Doreen, I know what you mean, this is a big change from the scroll, but I like it!
I used to think scroll was so great because there was no rules at all, but now I see that you need some sort of guidlines to avoid chaous and maintain a good poetry home. (hugs)

[This message has been edited by RosePetal (01-08-2002 12:45 AM).]

Allan Riverwood
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 01-04-2001
Posts 4212

29 posted 01-08-2002 01:35 AM       View Profile for Allan Riverwood   Email Allan Riverwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Allan Riverwood

Would someone send me that URL already?  
Member Elite
since 06-26-2000
Posts 3219
Blue Heaven

30 posted 01-08-2002 07:51 AM       View Profile for Jamie   Email Jamie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Jamie's Home Page   View IP for Jamie

I had a feeling it was PFFA but wasn't 100% sure. Really I just found it odd that everyone seemed to go out of their way to not say it out loud so to speak.

There is society where none intrudes, by the deep sea, and music in its roar.

Member Ascendant
since 02-02-2000
Posts 6304

31 posted 01-08-2002 09:54 AM       View Profile for anonymousfemale   Email anonymousfemale   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for anonymousfemale

Ok could someone send me the URL please? I'm dying of curiosity now...

If this is all the world has to offer, I want a refund on my life.

Senior Member
since 12-01-1999
Posts 1526
Washington State

32 posted 01-08-2002 07:23 PM       View Profile for Irie   Email Irie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Irie

I managed to find my way to the site you speak of.
What horrid place to be.
It would be one thing if they stated theyíre a "constructive" site.
And the fact that they have not one, but two CC forums and still criticize in their
So-called open is sad.
And some of the replies I read were down right rude, not constructive at all.
I find that disturbing.

I am a poet who writes what she feels, and if I make a mistake in meter, rhyme or any other "poetry rules", I'm not beat up for it!

You know, I'm thankful that I found this site before any other.
I am happy to be here and am lucky to have friendly people like you here.

Thanks to ALL of you, including Ron, for being so wonderful!


"The things that come to those that wait may be the things
left by those who got there first"

Senior Member
since 05-27-2001
Posts 1693
Ohio, USA

33 posted 01-09-2002 12:57 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Some people are pretty hard skinned. I'm one of them.

I've been to PFFA before, and while it seemed kind of exclusive, most places do at first. Believe it or not, PIP itself can seem quite exclusive to a newbie- there are pre-established groups and friendships and so on.... the issue is really whether or not it's a group you want to take the time making headway into.

Personally, I think harsh critique is fine. It knocks people off of a poetic high horse, and gets them to see their poetry more objectively. This doesn't always work- in fact, it's almost always best employed with Writers (yeah, that's right, Writers, proper noun, not people who write or even writers, but the almighty Writer) whose egos need to be knocked down a notch or two in order to get them to see anything at all.

Sometimes it's a personality thing. Like I said, I'm pretty thick-skinned, and I've had people tell me my critiques are too harsh or nitpicky- it's not that i try to put people down, it's that my feelings are pretty hard to hurt, and I'm pretty hard to offend, and I don't consider the fact that other people are more sensitive to certain things than I may be. Maybe it's just that that's the norm rather than the exception over there.

"I'm thinking about leaving tomorrow
I'm thinking about being on my own
I think I been wasting my time
I'm thinking about getting out"

Member Elite
since 08-19-2000
Posts 2361
Queensland, Australia

34 posted 01-09-2002 05:38 PM       View Profile for Dee   Email Dee   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Dee

you are right, there is nothing wrong with a harsh crit, if that is what you ask for. There is also a need for a gentler crit for new and young poets. We don't want to scare them off before they have the chance to learn, do we?
What is wrong with the site is the totalitarian way they run it. I saw poets who's work just needed polishing, that were told it was a load of **** and they should just throw it away. That is not a crit!
Other poets were banished for querying a crit by one of the mods. Yes they know a lot of technical stuff about poetry, but that does not mean that their assesment of someone else's work is the only real opinion.
The other thing that bugged me was the Aussies and English who were told to learn to spell. We can spell, just differently to the Americans.
Just my opinion and no offence intended.

[This message has been edited by Dee (01-09-2002 06:06 PM).]

Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea

35 posted 01-09-2002 07:11 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad


At first glance, I would agree with you. The quality of writing is/was higher than here. As I participated, however, I increasingly began to feel that the negativity was seeping into the poetry itself.

It may have changed, I don't know, but the more poetry I read there the more I realized that a certain diversity was lacking: a focus on the poem of the picture, and not of agency. This makes sense because agency all too often leads to sentimentality (a big no no from their point of view) and far too easily attacked for any of a number of reasons. This focus on negativity, on a misplaced use of objectivity, and, quite often, a misunderstanding of tradition/history  (and these are all intertwined) has led to the exact same problem that occurs with too much emphasis on positivity: an increased reification of language.

And that goes against the very poets and poetry that they profess to admire.

Whatever initial constructiveness negativity can bring (and I do think it can be constructive) was squashed underneath the weight of an overpowering sense that the site really had very little to do with getting better poetry and much more to do with following an unwritten rule book.

That is, the same type of poem every time (I'd give you examples but I was banned -- for certain childish acts on my part, yes, but no more childish than anything I saw there.  By the way, when I was posting there, comments directed at my stuff were, for the most part, quite positive.).

This may be quite unintentional, it may be simply the result of hearing the same defenses time and time again (I know the feeling), but I saw no self-reflection, I saw no sense that the negativity was in order to improve writing. It seemed to me simply the result of exhaustion.

Or the result of reading the rule book without really understanding it.

I don't know the causes, I can only give you my impression but I think it's wrong to assume that that site represents:

"good poetry written by serious, intelligent, creative people devoted to the craft and art of writing, and that's the goal of the 'other' site."

True, I can't point to Pip as a site that better achieves this goal, the excessive positivity seeps and influences the poetry as much as the negativity does there but that's really my point: neither site really furthers your goal.

Only individuals can do that.

Senior Member
since 03-03-2000
Posts 802

36 posted 01-09-2002 09:20 PM       View Profile for Jonas   Email Jonas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Jonas

All I know is that I write because I enjoy it. I'm not interested in critiques, or becoming technicaly astute, or being published. I could not care less what structure you choose use, or if your grammar is correct. All I care about is honesty. If I were to try to become what the folks at the other site think they are, I would come to hate writing.
Member Elite
since 08-19-2000
Posts 2361
Queensland, Australia

37 posted 01-10-2002 07:42 AM       View Profile for Dee   Email Dee   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Dee

I notice that Nobody Special's comments are gone now. I am glad you had something to say though. I wanted to comment but I just ended up saying things I shouldn't have, then editing them. Thanks anyway.

I wish you every happiness and may you always have the best of the good things in life.†††† a brand

Deputy Moderator 5 ToursDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 08-26-2001
Posts 3414
South Florida

38 posted 01-10-2002 03:42 PM       View Profile for RosePetal   Email RosePetal   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for RosePetal

I never got to see Nobody Special's comments!!!!!
Poet deVine
Member Empyrean
since 05-26-99
Posts 25869
Hurricane Alley

39 posted 01-10-2002 03:45 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

I read the comments, they must have been deleted. It was sort of a reprisal post. Better left out of this discussion as we don't want to start a verbal war. And we really should learn to respect the other forums that are different than ours.
doreen peri
Member Rara Avis
since 05-25-99
Posts 8028

40 posted 01-10-2002 06:45 PM       View Profile for doreen peri   Email doreen peri   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for doreen peri


many have asked...

i'll ask one more time

WHERE'S THE URL?????????????
since 10-12-2001
Posts 101

41 posted 01-10-2002 08:01 PM       View Profile for Shou-Lao   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Shou-Lao

I pretty much agree with Brad on this one, I was there around the same time as he was and have popped back from time to time, I donít think itís extremes of positively or negativity are conducive to good poetry. One forces the writer into changes that are foreign to him/her simply to comply with the general agreement of what the minority believe constitutes ĎGoodí poetry, the other doesnít give the writer any incentive to change at all.

The differences between sites shouldnít be used as a brush with which to tar all participants, there are in my opinion, a large number of poets at the other site that are very knowledgeable when it comes to poetry and you donít have to dig too hard to find them. Some of the critiques are very informative and stem, not from a desire to destroy but from a genuine appreciation of poetry. Unfortunately as Brad has pointed out for every good one there seems to be ten others who, in search of acceptance perhaps, grasp with both hands the nearest band wagon and start b(l)eating with both feet. This preference for plain speaking that borders on downright rudeness is, as Brad also pointed out, probably due in the most part to frustration brought on by constantly having to repeat the same message over and over again, seemingly without any effect.

Iím glad both sites exist and all the others I visit. I can come here to pretend I know how to write poetry without fear of being beaten to a bloody pulp but at the end of the day I need a shot of negativity to remind me that in truth Iím not really very good at this poetry lark.

(Doreen, try searching for PFFA on Yahoo)
Dark Enchantress
Senior Member
since 07-27-99
Posts 1460
meet Morgana

42 posted 01-10-2002 09:18 PM       View Profile for Dark Enchantress   Email Dark Enchantress   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Dark Enchantress's Home Page   View IP for Dark Enchantress

I personally am not into harsh critiques because I don't write objectively.. I write just with my emotions and thoughts in mind. To me that's good enough. However, for people who like harsh critiquing... I see nothing wrong with it. Whatever floats your boat, you know? I don't exactly think that being rude or childish to people is very constructive, but if that's how that site works than so be it. I don't have to go there so I don't really care.

Psst... I agree with Jonas.

The only thing that I fear is to die quietly.

Read between the lines.

[This message has been edited by Dark Enchantress (01-10-2002 09:24 PM).]

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