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Passions in Poetry

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RSWells
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since 06-17-2001
Posts 2607


0 posted 09-14-2001 09:58 AM       View Profile for RSWells   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for RSWells


"Fatwah" against U.S.;
11/4/1979   U.S.Embassy in Tehran, Iran is seized
            52 Americans are held blindfolded and
            paraded in front of jeering crowds for
            444 days during which time a failed
            rescue attempt produced 8 deaths.

10/23/1983  A military installation in Beirut,
            Lebanon is bombed killing 241 military
            personnel.

2/26/1993   A bomb explodes on a basement level of
            the World Trade Center in New York
            killing 6.

3/8/1995    U.S. Cosulate in Karachi is bombed
            killing 2 U.S. diplomats.

11/13/1995  A car bomb explodes in Riyadh, Saudi
            Arabia, 4 U.S. citizens killed.

6/25/1996   A truck bomb explodes at a military
            housing facility in Dhahran, Saudi
            Arabia, killing 19 young U.S. military.

1/2-13/1997 Several letter bombs mailed to the U.S.
            from Egypt are detected.

2/23/1997   A Palestinian opens fire on the Empire
            State Building observation deck, killing
            one.

11/12/1997  In Pakistan terrorists open fire killing
            4 U.S. auditors.

8/7/1998    U.S. Embassies in Nairobi and Dar es
            Salaam, Africa are bombed killing 224.

12/21/2000  Flight 103 over Lockerbie is bombed out
            of the air killing 259.

9/11/2001   Four planes are hijacked, their human
            cargo stabbed and terrorized while the
            planes themselves are used to attack
            American symbols of capitalism and
            Defense. Thousands of innocents are
            slaughtered.

  This list is far from complete. It doesn't consider those of dual citizenship who, mostly in Israel have been sacrificed to an evil which can no longer be ignored. It doesn't display the thousands of French, Belgian, German, English and innocent Africans, Asians, Middle Easterners who, while trying to live their lives, came across the paths of
what can only be described as soldiers of satan
  The time of considering these the acts of "madmen" or a "handful of fanatics" has passed and it need be seen for what it is...WAR!
  In Algeria alone thousands of innocents have been killed in their sleep, hacked to death, hundreds of Christian clergy have been slaughtered for the offense of belief in a God of Love, not one of vengence.
  These vile defilers of all that is good in the world have murdered, kidnapped, maimed and tortured
United Nations Peacekeeping Observers, Catholic Relief Service workers, World Fund Program, UNICEF,
and CARE volunteers.
  Now with impugnity they assail our shores, they brazenly bring their evil intent to the cradle of liberty, the home of democracy.
  I realize we are frightened and this is a poetry website where one should assume a more peaceful atmosphere than perhaps in an average American gathering. I know that Christianity and Judaism teach Love and understanding, tolerance of others beliefs, but when those beliefs are intolerant of ours and it's history shows a darkness of purpose and intent, we for our and our children's survival must act. I truly believe that our cheek has been turned enough that we now appear faceless and I pray we enrage in a groundswell of righteous indignation that, world opinion be damned, stomps out the last vestiges of this human cancer and we can go about our arduous lives without the threat of being plucked from it simply for being freedom loving democracies.
Elizabeth
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America the beautiful


1 posted 09-14-2001 10:16 AM       View Profile for Elizabeth   Email Elizabeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Elizabeth's Home Page   View IP for Elizabeth

God Bless America!!

anonymousfemale
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since 02-02-2000
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2 posted 09-14-2001 11:30 AM       View Profile for anonymousfemale   Email anonymousfemale   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for anonymousfemale

*sighs*

It is indeed sad what has been happening...this includes the history.

***** I am not agreeing with Terrorist activities******

Just remember that there are two sides to every story...

"Kelly's my Hero!" "No, Kelly's your heroine." "Kelly has heroin??" "What?"

inot2B
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since 09-18-2000
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3 posted 09-14-2001 12:28 PM       View Profile for inot2B   Email inot2B   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for inot2B

RSWells yes it is time to stand and all say ENOUGH. As a country we can only turn our cheek so many times before we say NO MORE.

anonymousfemale, just wanted to ask, which side are you taking?
Sunshine
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4 posted 09-14-2001 01:55 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine


My thanks to you, Richard, for this.  I know which side I am taking.  My prayers, and my hands, if needed, are with and in those of our country and its leaders.  Let them all go forth with our blessings, and our backing.
White Wolf
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Somewhere in the vast wastelan


5 posted 09-15-2001 03:41 AM       View Profile for White Wolf   Email White Wolf   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for White Wolf

Is it just me or has most everyone in America have bloodlust?  When is enough killing enough?  Is it when the body count reaches a satisfactory number or until we have killed all who threaten America?  I say enough killing.  There are more than enough ways to punish those responsible but must more innocent die in the process?  I have heard it said that we have "turned the other cheek" far too often.  I say we haven't done that at all.  Every chance we get we stick our noses in to "protect our interests" and they do not belong there.  I was not surprized by what happened on Tuesday.  I knew something was comming.  The only thing that surprizes me is that it didn't happen alot sooner.  Well to each his own, I only hope this doesn't turn out to be a big war.  Too many people have died so far.


The White Wolf

If life is just a game, when does it end cause I want to get to what is real.

rwood
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6 posted 09-15-2001 10:38 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

I did not see this post as bloodlust!
I must defend Richard in his attempts. I don't feel he
stated the desire for death. I feel he is like many. Tired
of seeing it go in vain.

For I have many loved ones that have suffered and are still
suffering from the acts of courage they followed through
with in War torn times. Viet Nam, and Desert Storm to say
just a couple. I weep for those that still cringe inside
from personal involvement of War. Just as I weep for those
Firefighters and Police Officers and regular citizens that
died or became maimed in their attempts to save a life. They
were serving their duty far above what they signed a piece
of paper for. They paid with their blood.

What many don't understand is that even if we do go forward
into (justice) there are repercussions that come unfairly
even after the fact. Such as Mental and Physical Disability
from the War Site of Viet Nam, and physical disability from
the Courage of helping a foreign nation. (Hepatitis) from
carrying the dead from the streets of Kuwait.

So I have just a minute knowledge of what War Means even
after the fact. (Minute) because I was not there. But I will
not sit here and say that My Loved Ones should never have
been there fighting and trying to support their country and
those under siege. (Or else their death and disabilities
would have been in vain.) It's like saying "Well you know if
you turned the other cheek you wouldn't be dying inside
right now." No, but we All might be if they hadn't done
SOMETHING! And certainly the dead cannot speak for
themselves right now, but I think they would say they
believed in what they died for.

And I feel the same for our dead now still being found
amongst the rubble. They should not go in vain! We must
stand up and take action. For If they were living, I'm sure
they would go forward and fight if one of us were buried
under that rubble. Our FREEDOM has and will continue to shed
blood. It is worth fighting for! I will not give up the
GHOSTS of our Forefathers for the fear of more death. No
matter what we do, we will not live forever. And if I go,
let it be in faith and belief of a FREE COUNTRY.

Our Freedom came with a price and it still will. The message
is the same. We will do whatever it takes to sit here and
share our feelings FREELY!

Sorry Richard...I didn't mean to soap box. I understand what
you are saying. As you touched upon the topic of our
children. What will we tell them if we don't fight? "Well
Mommy and Daddy didn't want to die, so You might since the
terrorists have now surrounded your school and now there is
nothing we can do."

Thank you for sharing with us. Hugs and Prayers for you and
yours.

Sincerely,
Regina
anonymousfemale
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Limbo


7 posted 09-15-2001 01:06 PM       View Profile for anonymousfemale   Email anonymousfemale   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for anonymousfemale

Inot2b, if I said I wasn't agreeing with terrorist activities, it is pretty obvious.

"Kelly's my Hero!" "No, Kelly's your heroine." "Kelly has heroin??" "What?"

RSWells
Member Elite
since 06-17-2001
Posts 2607


8 posted 09-15-2001 01:31 PM       View Profile for RSWells   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for RSWells

If you had a rabid dog running through your streets you'd demand something be done. If your neighbor was a bully who threatened, intimidated your family every time you went into your yard and did nothing would you not expect him to escalate to physical violence in the absence of any challenge?
You'd at least call the authorities. Well in this situation there is no higher authority than our defense system. We could (and should) appeal to our God, A peace loving God but that probably wouldn't prevent attacks on our citizens abroad and here. Regardless of the dysfunctional relationship that led to these events they now reach our shores and I doubt they will abate. As distasteful to some as it may be we must respond because I assure you that chemical warfare is the next step and the same folks who stood astonished at the attacks of 9/11 will be dumbstruck at the news of several thousands if not millions of innocents gasping their last breath at their feet.
  As any street fighter knows in the event of imminent threat you hit hard and fast and don't stop till those who would harm you are rendered incapacitated.
  
Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


9 posted 09-15-2001 08:16 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

"If you had a rabid dog running through your streets you'd demand something be done."

I don't know if this was an intended allusion to "To Kill a Mockingbird" but it's a good one.

Perhaps it is time to reflect on that book.

The whole book.

Brad
Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


10 posted 09-16-2001 01:15 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

First.... there is a sniper in the trees Brad -- and if there is a Boo Radley out there somewhere that can pull him down and save Scout I'm all for it.

Second... Pan Am flight 103 was bombed over Lockerbie Scottland on December 21st 1988.  I'm not so sure about some of the other dates Richard but it seems irrelevant to your point.

Third... unlike Harper Lee's novel there is no fictional crime here -- and I think the government and the media has been very very dilligent in pointing out these are the acts of some specific characters and not of the Islamic people.  Yes -- there have been Mosques shot at and cab drivers beaten -- but those too are acts of specific individuals and not the acts of America as a nation.

Fourth -- I understand the emotion behind this posting Richard because when I was in college the Ayatollah had just taken over Iran and our embassy hostages taken -- seeing Jimmy Carter (a president I didn't really care for at that time) burned in effigy in the streets of Tehran made my blood boil and I was ready to join the military and go over there to fight.

My chemistry lab partner's name was Gita -- that's a Persian name -- and yes -- she was from Iran -- a beautiful young lady I never saw again because we deported her after the hostage incident.  She didn't want to live under rule of the new regime either.

Fifth -- What's been left out of this posting is all the bullets, rockets, tanks, and planes with Made in the USA stamped on the side of them that have killed tens of thousands of Palestinians and Lebanese in the hands of Isreali soldiers.

Sixth -- This posting speaks nothing of the cavalier game of Risk the west played at the end of WWII that robbed the Palestinians of their home state contributing to the majority of the situations you bring up here Richard.

Seventh -- This posting also ignores the many times we have struck back

Eighth -- there is a sniper in the trees and it appears as if we must do something -- but exactly what this time -- I'm not sure -- this is not going to be a replay of the Gulf War though

Ninth -- Metal detectors don't detect Anthrax

Tenth -- bin Laden's group works in a cellular network spanning 50 countries -- are we going to strike at all 50 Richard?

Eleventh -- I am as emotionally distraught and as clueless as to what to do as everyone else

Twelfth -- We all share this planet.

[This message has been edited by Local Rebel (edited 09-16-2001).]

Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
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11 posted 09-16-2001 01:38 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

And Brad -- I think your reference to To Kill a Mockingbird was brilliant.

If this situation is going to be resolved it will be by a Boo Radley -- someone we currently think creepy -- maybe the Pakistani government -- maybe even somebody like Khadafi or Arafat -- I believe I actually saw genuine horror on Arafat's face -- and remorse....

But that's probably a topic for philosophy.
RSWells
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since 06-17-2001
Posts 2607


12 posted 09-16-2001 12:41 PM       View Profile for RSWells   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for RSWells

   I don't know where my mind was when I erroneously listed the Lockerbie date, surely I knew it was quite some time ago.
   In my line of work I've been exposed to the power brokers of the oil industry (this is Houston) and I will be the last to defend our out of date and insane dependence on fossil fuels which, trust me, is behind every bit of this. On numerous ocassions I've been told by these executives that we in this country have plenty of untapped oil but the intent is to use "theirs" up first.
   We made millionaires of any individuals who would assist us in our greed. Deals with devils. The Shah of Iran was one. The tug of war over their "allegiance" was with the Soviet Union and Bin-Laden was another devil we got in bed with supplying weapons, money and training. We now acknowledge Afghanistan as the Soviets "Vietnam".
   Palestine was never a nation. After World War II the Jews decided not to be victims ever again and the world being what it was (and is) no offers came forth so they decided to found their own nation. They went back to their Torah and it's teachings and the most common sense location was the Holy Land. This was done over the objections of the British and most others and many lives were lost in Israel's inception. I don't have the answers to this, many more resourceful and intelligent than I haven't either. But the Palestinians and their supporters are beyond any compromise and demand the destruction of the Jews. It's a matter of the survival of their race and history shows it will be up to them to assure it.
  Arafat was and IS a terrorist. Just because he wrenched a seat at the table doesn't make him respectable. Rest assured he hates America for the same reason you mentioned and that's our support and weaponry.
  As many times as we "struck back" it apparently was an insufficiant response for now we have lost thousands of innocents on our very shores in an attack purposely timed for maximum media exposure.
  To Kill A Mockingbird's Maycomb is merely a microcosm of the world which is generally speaking a planet of prejudice. I am not immune. I do however feel the average citizen of our nation at least have far more Atticus Finch in them then Bob Ewell the only character with no apparent redeeming qualities. Let us also remember that Boo Radley was forced into a life of seclusion by overbearing and unreasonable religiousity, the opium of the masses, whose fanaticism is beyond and reason or explanation, yet he too knew right and wrong at heart.
  As far as other nations go, their are really only a handful who have actively supported, housed, fed, armed and motivated terrorists. Some have the audacity to feign horror at last weeks events, paying lip service to decency while partying off camera. A list would include Syria, Lybia, Iraq, Iran, Sudan, Afghanastan. As inept as our overpriced intelligence community seems to be they should at least be in possesion of the knowledge of the most offensive of these renegade nations and that's where we start. Swift and decisive action which leaves no room for measuring our commitment to our very survival (and other peace loving nations) and in whose wake will be at least a fear of supporting such henious acts of destruction.
There looms a much larger threat to the planet we all share in allowing this assault to go either unpunished or the task of ceasing the threat at it's source.
We as a country have made mistakes, some I understand would be unforgivable. We can't change the past but can assure a more even handed approach with less taint of greed in the future and this example would go a long way towards touching the hearts of those who are either on the fence or leaning towards a nod of approval to our cumuppance.
  

Forever float that standard sheet!
Where breathes the foe but falls before us,
With Freedom's soil beneath our feet,
And Freedom's banner streaming

Local Rebel
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since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
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13 posted 09-16-2001 04:09 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:
On numerous ocassions I've been told by these executives that we in this country have plenty of untapped oil but the intent is to use "theirs" up first.
   We made millionaires of any individuals who would assist us in our greed. Deals with devils. The Shah of Iran was one. The tug of war over their "allegiance" was with the Soviet Union and Bin-Laden was another devil we got in bed with supplying weapons, money and training. We now acknowledge Afghanistan as the Soviets "Vietnam".


Agreed the policy of importing oil in this country has been nationalized and is not just a policy of oil company executives.  Make no mistake -- I have no respect for the big oil companies or thier blood sucking executives and I've seen firsthand the rank and file oil well / property owners in this country who were reduced to poverty because of this policy while their wells sit idle and capped until they are needed.  Given the events of this week though it should be fairly clear this isn't entirely an unnecessary evil -- oil is a matter of national security and as an engineer (and one who has worked on alternative energy sources for 20 years) there is no one who would like to shift our dependence away from it more than me -- but it was Gorbachev who penned the best analaogy when he was trying to describe moving his country from Communism to Capitalism -- if you have a kerosene lamp and you want to turn it into an electric one -- while you are working on it there is no light.  So yes, I'm totally in favor of revamping our infrastructure and there are ways to do it -- and yes greed does get in the way of that.

quote:
Palestine was never a nation. After World War II the Jews decided not to be victims ever again and the world being what it was (and is) no offers came forth so they decided to found their own nation. They went back to their Torah and it's teachings and the most common sense location was the Holy Land. This was done over the objections of the British and most others and many lives were lost in Israel's inception.


Yes this is partially correct.. but what is not included here is the fact that it was the (then) Western led United Nations (no third world participation and certainly no representation of the Palestinians) that first came up with the plan for a "partitioned" Palestine (which had been a British ruled state) divided into Isreali territory and Palestinian territory with an international Jerusalem.  It's important to remember the Isreali's did not live there -- they came in -- and conquered the land -- with the full support of the west.  Would we have allowed the Palestinians to win that war?  Further after they established an unpartitioned state and an uninternational Jerusalem as outlined in UN General Assembly Resolution 181 -- they went on into battle with Jordan to obtain the remaining Palestinian lands displacing millions of innocent people from their homes... why would the free world allow this to happen? (you don't want my answer).

Not only was the Isreali government not satisfied to occupy the Palestinian territory -- it then began to systematically purge the remaining Palestinians from newly conquered territory in an Ethnic Cleansing (albeit there were no smokestacks of burning Palestinians but when you round people up and toss them out of the country and steal their land what do you call that?  oh.. yes.. manifest destiny like our excuse to drive Native Americans from their lands here.)

quote:
Arafat was and IS a terrorist. Just because he wrenched a seat at the table doesn't make him respectable. Rest assured he hates America for the same reason you mentioned and that's our support and weaponry.


To the British George Washington was a terrorist.

And no Richard, none of us are immune from prejudice.  None of us are immune from rage when we see innocent people killed.  But, I think by and large this country was a bit like Scout -- most of the people were truly innocent to the evil that exists in the world until last Tuesday and reacted to the conventional opinions and prejudices of the community at large.

And yes -- the Boo Radley here is someone considered to be suspect by the conventional wisdom -- which is why I suggest it may turn out to be someone who has acted in ways -- because of the evil in the world -- that seem evil, and I have no crystal ball -- but if someone is going to 'get to' bin Laden it will be someone in the Islamic world -- and most likely someone we don't really like.

As to the handful of nations that have harbored and sponsored terrorist acts -- state sponsored terrorism has been on the decline and practically non-existent for a decade because of the times when we have struck back effectively -- people with targets tend to get rational when they become targeted... but -- I'm going to quote Goerge Will from this morning's 'This Week' on ABC -- "we can't send a million dollar Tomahawk to blow up a fifteen dollar tent. (re: Afghanastan that has no targets to hit anymore.)"

I do think -- however -- there is an enourmous chance that this will be linked to our old friend Saddam Hussein and if it is then we will have to take some kind of action there as well.

I'm not an advocate of a capitulating turn the other cheeck peace here (and it is ironically the Christian right that is always ready to go to war) but I am for making sure we address the truth in the aftermath of all of this, during all of this for that matter since this is going to take years to resolve, because it will not be solved by bigotry or rhetoric any more than it will be solved by smart bombs.


  

[This message has been edited by Local Rebel (edited 09-16-2001).]

White Wolf
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Somewhere in the vast wastelan


14 posted 09-18-2001 03:14 PM       View Profile for White Wolf   Email White Wolf   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for White Wolf

Ok obviously, rwood, you read things into what I wrote earlier that just are not there.  I worded what I said carefully expressing my opinion I neither accused this thread or the members of this site of a state of bloodlust.  I would also say that I intended no offense if any was taken.  To put what I said earlier simply, in general I believe that any killing is wrong.  The Bible and the God that this country was founded on says that killing is wrong.  I also believe that there are many routes or paths to a single destination or goal.  In that I, personally opt for one that doesn't take human life.  In this time of grief I would like to see that our judgement is not impaired by the anger that we feel.  Personally I am outraged that this has happens and acknowlege those people who were initially lost and the sacrifice that was and is being made to save those that survived.  If we do find a way to bring those responsible to justice without loss of life we will be more respected rather than feared by the rest of the world in general.  With that said I will take my leave for now.


The White Wolf

If life is just a game, when does it end cause I want to get to what is real.

Interloper
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15 posted 09-18-2001 07:36 PM       View Profile for Interloper   Email Interloper   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Interloper

LR, George Washington was seen as a respected leader and foe.  To even suggest anyone thought he was a terrorist is ludicrous.  That would be like saying Pershing or Eisenhower or MacArthur or Schwartzkauf were terrorists.  GARBAGE!

Richard, I will stand with you and your thoughts.  They seem to be well thought out and fairly presented.

Ms. Wood, all I can say is Amen.

White Wolf, nobody, except certain terrorist groups, likes to kill or be killed.  Unfortunately, that is something that must be done in certain circumstances.  I believe even you would kill to protect your children if need be, whether from a wild, vicious animal or a human being.

Maybe a more thorough reading of the Bible wold be in order rather than a work of fiction.  There is killing in that book  too.  But more than that, it speaks of loving your neighbor as the greatest commandment.  It says we should not kill, but does not say we cannot wage war.

LR, it also says in the Bible that the land where the Isrealis live is theirs.  It was given them by God.  Would you presume to supercede God's will?  I think not, unless, of course, you do not believe that the Bible is God's word or that you do not believe in God, or both.
ParisGrl
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16 posted 09-18-2001 08:03 PM       View Profile for ParisGrl   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ParisGrl

This will never be enough for them.
rwood
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since 02-29-2000
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17 posted 09-18-2001 09:34 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

White Wolf:

No offense taken. I just stated my position why I felt we
could not turn the other cheek. Strongly I agree. For I did
feel your quote was accusatory at Richard’s post. Now faced
with a lighter note, I hope I can also be as clear.

Some are faced with having to kill or be killed, faced with
the horrible fear that the Man with the knife is about to
crash your plane into a building. I feel your last post is
very kind thoughts and I cannot tell you how I wish we could
all share and practice a peaceful existence never having to
choose.

I do not want anyone to even suffer a scratch in hatred. But
I know I can't make that happen no matter how hard I try to
feel a circle of protection around all humans.

My position is this: I am looking at (daily) a man that may
not be here with us much longer due to the last conflict in
the Gulf. So I cannot refuse death as if it doesn't exist.
It will come. I have to face that reality. As horrible and
painful as it is. Yes, it's wrong. I hate it but I don't
want to kill anyone because of it. But I do feel he has
suffered enough. And I know I am not alone. We have had
enough suffering, maming, and burying our dead. When will it
stop? When will we no longer have to fear that someone is
out there waiting to bomb our lives to shreds. Why is this
man slowly dying and Sadam Hussien? still living it up?

As far as the Bible, how can I leave out the many battles
and wars in the story of the coming and departing of our
Lord. Primarily the death of My Saviour. My first learned
story of David and Goliath? And many, many more. Or the fact
that many have died just to sit and be able to read the
Bible and worship our God. I even agree with you that any
other route should be taken if granted. If we could
apprehend peacefully the guilty. Without firing a single
shot, shedding a single drop of blood. But I know this is
not a perfect world. If it was we wouldn’t have to search
for the guilty, there would be no guilty, or at least
they’de have the decency to stand up and say “I DID THIS!”

I appreciate your views, but please don't think that because
a person shouts out "NO MORE" that means we want to go on a
naked killing spree. For most of us it just means we've
reached the inward last frazzle of our coping. So in my
strong post, I too meant not to seem so against peace. I
question how it will come about if we know in our hearts the
balance will never be.

As far as taking a life, God forgive me, but I would do
whatever was in my fate to do to protect others from being
harmed. That is on a personal level though and War is more
diplomatic? How I’m not sure.

Sincerely,
Regina
Local Rebel
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Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


18 posted 09-18-2001 09:47 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Interloper -- have you ever heard of the Boston Tea party?  That was an act of terrorism.  Have you ever seen the movie The Patriot starring Mel Gibson?  His character Benjamin Martin is a hero to us and a terrorist to his foe.

His character is actually an amalgamation of men like Francis Marion aka the Swamp Fox, Daniel Morgan, Elijah Clark, Thomas Sumter, and Andrew Pickens.  These were all men who tamed the wilderness first and learned the evasive battle style of the Native Americans they were fighting with and against depending upon which tribe.  

To the British they were terrorists -- as were all American rebel forces.

The funny thing about history is the victors always get to write it.

Did you notice that all of the Generals you mentioned are American?  Which is what I'm assuming you are since you're in Texas.

And, this may be difficult to comprehend, but there are places where the Bible is not a legally binding deed, but thank you for making my arguments ever more obvious to see.

But I will gladly defend your right to your beliefs, opinions, and speech.

I am assuming that since you use the word 'Bible' that you are some form of Christian and therefore I ask you -- What would Jesus Do?

Still waiting for Boo.

[This message has been edited by Local Rebel (edited 09-18-2001).]

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


19 posted 09-19-2001 12:30 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

My point in referring to a piece of literature (fiction) wasn't to give us a map but to reflect on the way we make decisions. Literature, some would argue, has value because it allows us to see things that we don't normally see in the everyday, "real" world.

I was thinking of Atticus Finch (Gregory Peck in the movie) versus Bob Ewell (and thanks for the names, I didn't remember them). Boo was an interesting surprise but still useful.

If the Bible does that for you, great. If you see the Bible, however, as a map for your decisions, it's still you, me, us, who make them.

And we're still responsible for them.

Brad
Interloper
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Member Rara Avis
since 11-06-2000
Posts 8628
Deep in the heart


20 posted 09-19-2001 10:32 AM       View Profile for Interloper   Email Interloper   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Interloper

LR - To my knowledge, and according to a history professor with whom I am acquainted, no lives were lost during the Boston Tea Party.  It was an act of civil disobedience and, from the British point of view, vandalism and theft.

With regard to Marion, et al, they conducted no acts of terrorism.  They killed no innocent bystanders, women or children.  The British believed there was only one way to wage land warfare and they were unble to deal with guerilla tactics.  They were used to uniformed men standing in lines 50 meters apart and shooting at each other until one army retreated.  There is a difference in creating terror in the hearts of your foe and committing a terrorist act that kills the innocent.  I should think a learned man such as yourself would readily see the difference.

OK, I named only American military leaders.   I admit I am predisposed to favoring the American foundation and, in turn, American icons and/or heroes.  However, I will mention DeGaulle, Montgomery, Rommel, etc. as honorable military leaders.

I would be remiss if I failed to mention Sam Houston as an honorable military leader since I do, in fact, reside in Texas which, last time I checked, is still a proud member of the USA.  Shux, we even had a battleship named after our state.

I believe I can comprehend most anything you write.  I KNOW I believe everything God has to say and I KNOW the Bible is His Word.  I fail to see how the Bible makes your "argument" obvious (and I agree, you DO tend to argue as opposed to debate).

With regard to WWJD, if you are a Christian, as I am, you would know.  You would also know what His Father would do.  As any father who discovered that his children did wrong ... He would, and will, punish them.  Just what the instrument of that punishment will be has yet to be seen.  Just maybe it will be the armed might of the USA.  Or, it could be.... even the "imperialistic" Isrealis.  Or, Great Brittain.  Or ...  Golly, I guess we will see when it happens.

As for defending my beliefs, I thank you.  I believe this has brought us, citizens of the USA, closer together.  We may not agree on what course of action should be taken, but we do agree that the perpetrators and leaders who planned, financed, and carried out this cowardly act should be found and punished.

Brad - I believe the Bible gives us rules by which to live.  It also teaches us that we, children of God, will be punished if we do wrong.  And, yes, whoever makes the decision(s) will, I pray, seek and receive the guidance of God.

I believe that this heinous act has brought all of America together ... the liberals, conservatives, all ethnicities, all religions, all Americans with a common goal.  When Japan's military leaders reflected immediately after the attack on Pearl Harbor they said that they had awakened a sleeping giant and they did, indeed, pay the price.  Now those who were part of all terrorist acts, worldwide, will have to pay the price.

Unabashedly I say, God bless America and God bless all here at Passions.

Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


21 posted 09-19-2001 04:57 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

It is interesting that so many religions in the world have the feeling that people have to do something to 'help' God carry out 'his' punishment.

And it's also interesting how many people feel that if someone has a differing opinion from thier own there must be something lacking in education or 'learning' or just downright intellect in the other person.

Re: creating terror in your foe's heart vs. terrorism that kills innocent bystanders -- if a 'learned man like me' understands all that you write correctly then -- in the Revolutionary War we were not terrorists -- but in the firebombing of Dresden say -- we were since we killed thousands of innocents, or in Viet Nam, or even Desert Storm where there was collateral damage...Korea too.. so then by your definition here McArthur, Eisenhower, and Schwartzkopf were in fact terrorists.

You presuppose in your personal attacks on me that I have some need to defend whether or not I am a Christian and further that if I am one I must not be a very good one if I do not agree with the way that YOU interpret your religion.

Now I'm really trying to envision Jesus with an M-16 but I just can't quite get to that picture.

quote:
"Darkness can not drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."-- Martin Luther King Jr.

[This message has been edited by Local Rebel (edited 09-19-2001).]

rwood
Member Elite
since 02-29-2000
Posts 3797
Tennessee


22 posted 09-19-2001 07:13 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

LR:

I feel that quote of Martin Luther King Jr's was one of the most well meaning ever among many. But He was murdered in hate! It seems when we love and try to spread peace, we are magnets for hate and cannot even finish a sincere sentence without dodging bullets. Now we have thousands trying to kill us. For whatever reason. Will we now just put all our dead's names in a hat and start naming streets after them? Please excuse my sarcasm, I mean no offense. I loved the message he tried to spread. But we are so wide scale now. And I know that many of the people who died from this crime were just as good as he was. As for Jesus....well...we will never be as good from my own personal view....And I think no one knows that better than God. What to do, what to think. Please see I'm searching and trying here, not bashing or being self centered. I am strong, but not too weak to say I can't find the answers...yet. God help us think through this clearly.  

Sincerely,
Regina

[This message has been edited by rwood (edited 09-19-2001).]

Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


23 posted 09-19-2001 07:54 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Regina.. we have to pursue justice -- we have to get the sniper out of the tree -- as I've said before.

But the post you put in announcements re: the other side of the coin here should be an indication that an indiscriminant act of war is going to escalate this into something we don't want.

The administration finally pointed out today that just 'getting' our man is not going to do the trick here -- and they're right.  But what we have to do is get our man and then wage the war with peace -- or else we'll have about a half a billion bin Ladens coming at us.
Honeybee
Member Ascendant
since 12-26-1999
Posts 5512
Ontario, CANADA


24 posted 09-19-2001 08:24 PM       View Profile for Honeybee   Email Honeybee   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Honeybee



I just watched the news, and I am DISGUSTED!
I shall stand behind the U.S and defend freedom, but, it was reported that an American plane (within the last few days) went into Afghanistan and bombed a mosque and a school, and KILLED 6 INNOCENT CHILDREN!
This is wrong!!!!  Oshama Bin Laden is the terrorist not 6 innocent children.  And don't tell me that the pilot did not know he was bombing a school! I am frieken angry. I COULD SCREAM.  
This american pilot is just as nasty as Bin Laden now.  Thank God I'm Canadian.
This type of vengence is horrible and immoral and proves nothing!

And please do not misconstrue what I am trying to say here.  I am not here to fight.  Like I said, Canada is united with the world and the USA. I loathe Bin Laden and all the terrorists for the horrible act they committed against New York and Washington.  It deeply upsets me, I'm still in shock.  

I agree that the USA and the united nations must take serious military action against terrorists and such countries, but, 6 children did not have to die in Afghanistan!


[This message has been edited by Melissa Honeybee (edited 09-19-2001).]

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