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Passions in Poetry

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rwood
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since 02-29-2000
Posts 3797
Tennessee


25 posted 09-19-2001 10:26 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

LR: Yes...I don't want anyone innocent to die. How can we peacefully go in? I am confused but all for it. What is a peaceful way to get the sniper? Unarmed....beg for the country to turn him over...ask for him to turn himself over? What would be the peaceful solution against the masses if they and he refuses. Which it's evident that he is a coward and will hide.

Thank you for allowing my questions and I know they must seem naive...but I just want to be more clear at what a peaceful retaliation will be. I would just like to hear your views, for I know you cannot provide me the exact events to proceed. I know that no one can forsee what will really happen.


Melissa! I'm sorry. I did not know or hear anything about what you posted. I have been away from the news for the stress. I hope this is not true. Please no!
rosepetals25
Deputy Moderator 5 Tours
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since 05-31-2000
Posts 3404
PA


26 posted 09-19-2001 11:39 PM       View Profile for rosepetals25   Email rosepetals25   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rosepetals25

I hate the fact that we have to go war.  The fact is however.. we have to.  If we let what happened on Sept. 11 pass with a mere slap on the wrist, what does that tell the rest of the world? We have to show that we will not allow this kind of horror and terror to happen in our country.  I hate the fact that innocent people will die.  And I completely agree with Melissa.. the bombing of the school was cruel and as horrific as the what happened here.  That should have never happened.   It was an immoral and disgusting thing to do. We have to strike back to those who deserve our wrath...not an elementry school.  My prayers are with all the innocent people who will die in the fight we must see through... both our men and women and the innocent men, women, and children of other countries.  

[This message has been edited by rosepetals25 (edited 09-20-2001).]

NapalmsConstantlyConfused
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since 05-15-2001
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27 posted 09-20-2001 12:33 AM       View Profile for NapalmsConstantlyConfused   Email NapalmsConstantlyConfused   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for NapalmsConstantlyConfused

melissa - who reported this? because they were in error, the only people that have been killed in Afghanistan in the last 6 months have been killed due to their own internal political turmoil. the US does not now, nor have they in the last 6 months, had ANY agents over there, or any military units in range to attack, or ANYthing. there are planes getting ready to leave to go there, true, but as of noon today none of them had left yet, and our two aircraft carriers are still almost 1000 miles away.
in other news:
ladies and gentlemen, if you're going to question the policy of attacking the terrorists and the nations who harbor them, you might do better to ask the people who are going to perform those attacks what THEY think first. you have the right to disagree, the right to say what you like, and the right to do basically whatever the hell you want to because there are soldiers, sailors, marines, and airmen out there who risk their lives every day to provide you with that safety.
i know.
i used to be one of 'em.
my former unit is on alert to go, and there is every chance that i will get called up to go wreak havoc in the name of justice for slain American citizens.
if they call me, i will go.
tara doesn't like the idea, and i'm not gonna go run sign up again, but if they call me, i WILL go.
why?
because NO-ONE has the right to attack my home. because NO-ONE has the right to drop a plane full of American citizens in an attempt to squish my girlfriend.
BECAUSE THIS IS MY HOME.
no matter what you may say about "most of them didn't hurt us" you seem to have a double standard as regards us. _I_ certainly never took anyone's homeland, butted my nose into the business of "the peaceful islamic people" of the world, or any other such foolishness. neither did you. none of us here in this forum EVER OPPRESSED OR INVADED ANYBODY. thus:
the Taliban is wrong for supporting attacks on innocent civilians. the US response? "we will pursue _those responsible for these attacks_ (underscore mine) and the governments that support them." END QUOTE.
where does that say anything about killing innocent civilians?
folks, if you're innocent, step away from the area of impact. if you rush right in to defend your terrorist government, you're guilty of collaboration, which is a FELONY here in the US, in case there was someone here who was confused.
if you're guilty, well, we have smart bombs for a reason. get ready to find out why.

if you're not one of the people that this refers to, then it doesn't refer to you. since none of you are terrorists (that i know of, of course :P ) this doesn't apply to you. so:
don't bother sending me emails to complain about my "tone." i have first-hand experience with this, having been shot at by terrorists MYSELF, thanks. the easiest way to deal with the enemy is by use of a .50 cal to the forehead.
-NCC, posting in here only because tara asked him to

I Love The Smell Of Napalm In The AM!
"Why do i smell something burning?!?"
I Love The Smell Of Napalm In The AM!

Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


28 posted 09-20-2001 02:03 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Well Regina the first thing that had to happen has happened.  Islam as a religion practiced by the vast majority of it's followers has a huge respect for due process.  The administration has said repeatedly when asked about proof of bin Laden's involvement that it isn't prepared to discuss intelligence issues -- which is perfectly understandable -- but apparently with the investigation of over 4000 FBI agents and whatever the NSA and CIA have dug up -- something has been convincing enough for President Bush to move to a 'Dead or Alive' scenario with bin Laden.

Knowing who is responsible is half of the battle -- knowing where he is is the other half.  Sabre rattling with airplanes is fine policy that should make our position clear to the Taleban -- if it hasn't been made clear already by the Pakistani government.  If the Taleban decide for some reason to allow us to pursue him, which would be doubtful, it would still be a difficult task to find him.

Early indications are this will be a special forces operation on the ground -- from some of the other threads we've talked on and on this one most should be aware by now that there's little to bomb in Afghanastan.  If there is to be any kind of classical 'military' action I would most likely suspect it would be aimed largely at specific points of Pakistan if the Pakistani government can't produce results or at least convince the world that it's doing its' best.  

Even though bin Laden is 'in' Afghanastan according to reports he and his al-Qa'ida regularly use Peshawar the capital of the Northwest Frontier in Pakistan -- it is adjacent to the Khyber Pass and is regularly used by al-Qa'ida members for passage into and out of Afghanastan for thier terrorist acts as well as a communications center where they can get to civilized things like telephones and internet connections.

It's important to remember though that Pakistan has been successful in developing nuclear weapons.  If this turns into us against Pakistan the al-Qa'ida network would be an easy delivery method.  Just slap one in a suitcase -- put it in the hands of a suicide bomber -- and send him off in a jet.

Assuming we have a limited campaign against Afghani targets even for special forces its going to be very difficult to negotiate the terrain and find exactly where bin Laden is.  Our best bet right now is to use a big chunk of the 40 billion dollars we've appropriated for this operation to 'turn' some of the people that are close to bin Laden -- and believe it or not -- even though his success in striking the Pentagon and WTC has made him stronger in the Islamic world it has made him weaker as well.

This puts him into a position to be the defacto leader of Islamic peoples who are not only hacked off at the U.S. but at their own governments.  They have no democracies.  They live under oppressive regimes.  Half of the reason most of the Muslims there hate us is not just about our support of Isreal -- but because we support the regimes that are in power -- just as we supported the Shah of Iran.

Because he is now in this position others who have their own agendas could view a couple of billion dollars as just the thing they might need to pull him down and bolster their own movements -- a dirty business but it is probably the way it will happen. Ahmad Shah Mas'ud might be useful to that end and may be a name you hear more about in the coming weeks or months.

It's my understanding though it has been very difficult until now to recruit NOC's (non-official covers -- a type of spy akin to mission impossible but usually people who are native to the target region) due to restrictions put in place by the Clinton administration because we didn't want to 'do business' with terrorists.

If there are a few strategic targets that can be hit with air sorties I'm sure we would do it for the tokenism of it.  But what we need is information that can lead us to the terrorist cells wherever they are.

There are basically seven nations that the State Department considers active in either state sponsored terrorism or harboring renegade groups like bin Ladens.  It would be a clear mistake for us to wage some kind of all out conventional war with these nations.  We would risk turning the entire region against us if we did... and then what?

The way to wage a war with peace is to make sure the people have something to lose -- and to make sure they get better acquainted with us.  We'll have to work toward more democratic governments for them to live in, more distribution of wealth within the region, and better education and opportunity for the people.

People with nothing to lose are the most dangerous there are -- combine that with the particular brand of fundamentalism preached by the Taleban and Osama bin Laden and it's adding gasoline to the fire.

In short I think these are the avenues that are being pursued by this administration and I haven't said anything critical about what is being done anywhere.  In fact -- the administration itself has said basically the same things I have -- this is not going to be another Gulf War.  Some people seem to be expecting that though.

Outrage is understandable.  It is to be expected.  But we have to stop and wage this campaign with our brains instead of our tears.

The most important thing we can do as civilian individuals is remain optimistic and continue to go about our lives as we always have.  And that includes tempering our rage.

Hate is a dead thing. Who of you would be a tomb? -Kahlil Gibran




[This message has been edited by Local Rebel (edited 09-20-2001).]

Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


29 posted 09-20-2001 03:03 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Oh.. and thanks for the questions Regina -- I think you helped write my essay I owed my site for Friday.
rwood
Member Elite
since 02-29-2000
Posts 3797
Tennessee


30 posted 09-20-2001 07:04 AM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

LR:

Wow! Thank you! There are methods that I did not know, Honestly did not realize that held some promise. I know it's a lot of ifs and buts, but at least there is some light shed on what we can possibly do to get the sniper.

You see I have always been on this side hoping and rooting and praying for the safe return of our soldiers and service men and women in past conflicts. It was the extent of my energy. I could not really make myself think about the actual tactics they would be carrying out. Because It tore down my confidence of a safe return. When you have loved ones (in it) you sort of go numb and sink into a vigilance and block out the events taking place. I just did a whole lot of praying and carrying on and helping others to cope with their emotions on the home front. This time, I am forced to think clearly, I'm not a military dependent anymore. So the view is to watch others and their loved ones start to board the ships for War. I feel like I am lost! Does that make sense. I am forced to look at things I never had to before. Like the actual boots footfalling on the soil, and standby's that will be lifted. Then what? That is the place I'm feeling like a fish out of water. I want to know what our government plans to do. I want to understand what will happen next and why. I want to support and see the reasoning behind the men and women that will carry it out for us. I can't go numb anymore because it hit home to us in a way it never has before.

I see where the peaceful and well meaning will be of great help to all. And I see where the alternative will be rendered in rejection of peace. I, myself have made a decision that the sniper has to die, one way or the other. And I have made peace with that inside. The poison must be cut off to end this insanity affecting our lives and slowly disintergrating our integrity, our brains. The antidote is clear now. It must be extracted from the source.

Thank you so much for helping me see the grit beyond the grand.

As far as the comment on the U.S. bombing innocent school children. Being untrue! That is just one more indication that the evil wants us all dead. Including those that received the information of the intended rape of a nation and what our people stand for.

My heart goes out to all. God be with us. Let freedom ring for us and for the innocent and impoverished that don't even know what it is.

[This message has been edited by rwood (edited 09-20-2001).]

BrightStar
Member
since 04-08-2001
Posts 228


31 posted 09-20-2001 10:40 AM       View Profile for BrightStar   Email BrightStar   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for BrightStar

LR you jumped all over Interloper accusing him of things he never said or even intimated.  He was SOOOOO right in calling you argumentative.

He never said anybody had to "help" God do anything, let alone carry out His "punishment."  That was just a downright rude and imperious comment.

If you don't know the difference between a declared war and an act of terrorism, you have your head in the sand.  Even relating the bombing of Dresden (you did not mention Tokyo let alone Nagasaki or Hiroshima) to an act of terrorism is almost unbelievable.

Where did he accuse you of lacking education?  It looks like to me that he said you were a learned man.  Certainly you let us know you attended college and are an engineer.


I fail to see where Interloper got personal with you, but, then, you take debate as argument and, as a result, you take anything that does not agree with your beliefs as a personal attack on you.

For heaven's sake, where did he even intimate you were not a christian or even a bad christian?  

Your comment about Jesus with an M-16 is ridiculous.  Are you Rush's liberal cousin?
Interloper
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Rara Avis
since 11-06-2000
Posts 8628
Deep in the heart


32 posted 09-20-2001 01:21 PM       View Profile for Interloper   Email Interloper   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Interloper

Thank you, BrightStar, for taking up for me.  As much as I appreciate your thoughts and sentiment I believe I am capable of speaking for myself.

I know what I wrote and I know what is in my heart.  

LR, I forgive you and ask that you forgive me if you feel that I have offended or attacked you on a personal basis.  
White Wolf
Member
since 09-18-99
Posts 384
Somewhere in the vast wastelan


33 posted 09-20-2001 03:37 PM       View Profile for White Wolf   Email White Wolf   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for White Wolf

Ok I am back again with another comment from the peanut gallery.  I don't whole heartedly agree with what I am about to say but in my opinion it is better than any bullets being fired at the tree that has a sniper in it.  I don't think I have read this anywhere in this post but if it has please forgive me.  Lets just say that a sniper is in a tree and no one person could get within three blocks of him without being shot.  How do you get him out of the tree?  You could rush him with overwhelming numbers but this would get people killed.  We also know that he is being supplied or at the very least being harbored by the people that own the tree.  What if insted of rushing the tree we bring the owners of that tree to thier "knees" through economics.  How long do you think those poeple would continue to harbor this sniper?  Chances are not too long.  Do we have an agreement that is called NATO with the power to economicly strangle those countries that harbor this sniper.  I think you can see where this ends.  Yes it does intitle some risk of war but less than actually firing shots and killing people.  The peanut gallery is closed for now.


The White Wolf

If life is just a game, when does it end cause I want to get to what is real.

Carolina
Member
since 08-17-2001
Posts 231
Myrtle Beach, SC


34 posted 09-20-2001 03:57 PM       View Profile for Carolina   Email Carolina   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Carolina

I have heard nothing about the above-referenced bombings in Afghanistan.  I'm sure our press in the States would be ALL OVER that news, but I've also learned from Dessert Storm not to believe everything that comes out of some countries unless it's from a verified "international" press source.

Live today as if it's your last.Love today as if it's your first. Lisa

Carolina
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since 08-17-2001
Posts 231
Myrtle Beach, SC


35 posted 09-20-2001 04:16 PM       View Profile for Carolina   Email Carolina   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Carolina

And it warms my heart   to know that my husband will be risking his life so that ANYONE and EVERYONE that lives in a "free" country, can and will have the right to speak their minds and speak their hearts,(everything that has been going on at this site since September 11th) and not have to worry about being killed for speaking against a certain religion, government, etc.

Live today as if it's your last.Love today as if it's your first. Lisa

inot2B
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since 09-18-2000
Posts 2272
Alabama


36 posted 09-20-2001 06:35 PM       View Profile for inot2B   Email inot2B   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for inot2B

I heard on (I think) Sixty Minutes yesterday that the bombing on Afganistan was from last year when impeached Ex President Clinton was in charge.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


37 posted 09-20-2001 07:07 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

First; to Regina, if there's anything that I've said that's helped you in any way through these very dark days it is I that thanks you for having an opportunity to give my support to a fellow countryman and human.  One thing that I neglected to put into my edited and re-edited posting I composed in the wee hours of the morning was that if anyone wants to have a model for what this operation is going to look like from the outside I would offer the illustration of some kind of combination of our efforts in Somalia and in Panama when we went to arrest Manuel Noriega.  And, I would remind everyone of the difficulties we had in obtaining General Noriega in a country that was close to us, close to water, familiar terrain, and we knew where he was.  Infinite Justice will be ultimately successful but I presume there will be many casualties, military and collateral.  We killed an estimated 200 to 2000 innocent civilians when we invaded Panama.  I have no idea why the estimation has such a wide gap--its' just what our State Department has told us.

Second to Brightstar and Interloper; I'm not going to insult anyone's intelligence by trying to deny that when I said  
quote:
" It is interesting that so many religions in the world have the feeling that people have to do something to 'help' God carry out 'his' punishment.

And it's also interesting how many people feel that if someone has a differing opinion from their own there must be something lacking in education or 'learning' or just downright intellect in the other person."


that I wasn't aiming both of those comments at Interloper even though I did not outright accuse him in those comments.  In the English language we don't have to always say exactly what we mean in order for people to understand what is going on.

I accept your apology Interloper and in the interest of fostering 'debate' instead of personal attacks I'm going to offer this primer for anyone who is reading this thread -- it is not aimed at anyone here.

When it was said:
quote:
LR, it also says in the Bible that the land where the Isrealis live is theirs. It was given them by God. Would you presume to supercede God's will? I think not, unless, of course, you do not believe that the Bible is God's word or that you do not believe in God, or both.


what is really meant is;--you better not challenge what I have to say because I represent God here and if you challenge me you are challenging God and are going to go to hell.

When it was said;
quote:
" With regard to WWJD, if you are a Christian, as I am, you would know"


This is another veiled personal attack and attempt at argumentum ad hominem - an attempt to discredit anything I have to say by calling me unchristian and therefore labeling my positions as 'anti-Christ'.

When it was said;
quote:
" . There is a difference in creating terror in the hearts of your foe and committing a terrorist act that kills the innocent. I should think a learned man such as yourself would readily see the difference."


The words 'I should think a learned man such as yourself' mean-- if you don't agree with my position you are obviously unintelligent.

Brightstar regarding your attempt at argumentum ad hominem by calling me a 'liberal' and 'Rush' (Limbaugh) all I can say is I don't think the term liberal is a dirty word and I also don't think there is anything wrong with Rush Limbaugh.  I disagree with his views on some points but he's an excellent communicator and entertainer and has never purported to be anything else.  So, thank you.  However, I am not a Liberal -- my position on the political spectrum is moderate.

Further, words like 'ludicrous' and 'garbage' are not debate terminology and I don't think you'll find me casting aspersions in any of my posts anywhere like that.  

Re: Jesus with an M-16, there is absolutely no reason why that is a ludicrous proposition because wherever I see the acronym WWJD on t-shirts, bumper stickers, buttons, badges, billboards, et al -- I know what that means.  The life of Christ is supposed to be an example of how a 'Christian' is to live.

Last: let me just say I think this thread should be a clear example of the escalation process when people set out to 'retaliate' instead of pursue justice.

Yes Regina -- people who pursue peace are regularly attacked and quite often killed including Jesus of Nazareth.



Hate is a dead thing. Who of you would be a tomb? -Kahlil Gibran

[This message has been edited by Local Rebel (edited 09-20-2001).]

Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


38 posted 09-20-2001 07:18 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

White Wolf, I appreciate your sentiments in suggesting we pursue economic sanctions but the reality is that when we do that we do wind up hurting the innocent.

The people in power in those countries are able to ensure that whatever resources are availiable will be diverted to them -- they don't starve -- innocent men women and children do.  

Those kind of economic sanctions are difficult to enforce too which is why they never worked in Cuba, Iraq, Iran, or anywhere else they have been tried.  

The just thing, the kindest thing we can do is act intelligently but decisivly -- and then work to rebuild that whole region the way we rebuilt Germany and Japan after WWII.

Carolina: I agree -- I'm proud to be a citizen of and defend a country where it is safe for Jerry Falwell and Bill Maher to make total idiots of themselves.  Amen
rwood
Member Elite
since 02-29-2000
Posts 3797
Tennessee


39 posted 09-20-2001 08:34 PM       View Profile for rwood   Email rwood   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for rwood

quote:
Yes Regina -- people who pursue peace are regularly attacked and quite often killed including Jesus of Nazareth.


Sadly, I know


quote:
I'm proud to be a citizen of and defend a country where it is safe for Jerry Fallwell and Bill Maher to make total idiots of themselves.  Amen


....And I guess that's why the two mentioned above are still with us.



Just wish we peacemakers could live a little longer than the idiots do. But Of course it's not in vain. The message still rings out for us to spread.

This is a good example of how things get stirred up and become a religous war...or snap session. I feel....and I know yall will correct me if I'm wrong...but more blood has been shed in the name of religion than anything else. Which is quite ironic in our intentions. Because I believe most all Gods...or higher powers support life and the embrace of it. So could it be possible...since we're all human here that when we chose our religion that our belief(conviction or opinion) can sometimes be misconstrued with the Entity?

quote:
James 1:17~Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of Lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.


To me this means...What is good in us and around us...we can never take the credit for.
It is a gift from God. Unchanging, beyond all shadows of doubt.

So If our religion may vary, our perception may vary, our degree of devotion may vary, wouldn't it then be us, and not him in our attempts to follow by the practice of our religion?

And isn't that why we are now about to fight what some are calling a Holy War over there? Because in their intentions to follow their God they have found it necessary to misconstrue their God into a divine battle plan to snuff out us devils over here?

I mean Hey!....7 Virgin Wives? I know many that would not call that a gift. But to each his own.

God Is Love yall.......And we're all a piece of the great puzzle.

Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


40 posted 09-20-2001 09:13 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Uh, what debate?

Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


41 posted 09-23-2001 02:37 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Exactly Brad...

and.. Masood is dead.. didn't realize that... bin Laden killed him the same time he was attacking the Trade Center... oh well...we'll still be able to use the Northern Alliance even without him.
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