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Enough!!!
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Enough!!! |
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RSWells Member Elite
since 2001-06-17
Posts 2533
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"Fatwah" against U.S.; 11/4/1979 U.S.Embassy in Tehran, Iran is seized 52 Americans are held blindfolded and paraded in front of jeering crowds for 444 days during which time a failed rescue attempt produced 8 deaths. 10/23/1983 A military installation in Beirut, Lebanon is bombed killing 241 military personnel. 2/26/1993 A bomb explodes on a basement level of the World Trade Center in New York killing 6. 3/8/1995 U.S. Cosulate in Karachi is bombed killing 2 U.S. diplomats. 11/13/1995 A car bomb explodes in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, 4 U.S. citizens killed. 6/25/1996 A truck bomb explodes at a military housing facility in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, killing 19 young U.S. military. 1/2-13/1997 Several letter bombs mailed to the U.S. from Egypt are detected. 2/23/1997 A Palestinian opens fire on the Empire State Building observation deck, killing one. 11/12/1997 In Pakistan terrorists open fire killing 4 U.S. auditors. 8/7/1998 U.S. Embassies in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam, Africa are bombed killing 224. 12/21/2000 Flight 103 over Lockerbie is bombed out of the air killing 259. 9/11/2001 Four planes are hijacked, their human cargo stabbed and terrorized while the planes themselves are used to attack American symbols of capitalism and Defense. Thousands of innocents are slaughtered. This list is far from complete. It doesn't consider those of dual citizenship who, mostly in Israel have been sacrificed to an evil which can no longer be ignored. It doesn't display the thousands of French, Belgian, German, English and innocent Africans, Asians, Middle Easterners who, while trying to live their lives, came across the paths of what can only be described as soldiers of satan The time of considering these the acts of "madmen" or a "handful of fanatics" has passed and it need be seen for what it is...WAR! In Algeria alone thousands of innocents have been killed in their sleep, hacked to death, hundreds of Christian clergy have been slaughtered for the offense of belief in a God of Love, not one of vengence. These vile defilers of all that is good in the world have murdered, kidnapped, maimed and tortured United Nations Peacekeeping Observers, Catholic Relief Service workers, World Fund Program, UNICEF, and CARE volunteers. Now with impugnity they assail our shores, they brazenly bring their evil intent to the cradle of liberty, the home of democracy. I realize we are frightened and this is a poetry website where one should assume a more peaceful atmosphere than perhaps in an average American gathering. I know that Christianity and Judaism teach Love and understanding, tolerance of others beliefs, but when those beliefs are intolerant of ours and it's history shows a darkness of purpose and intent, we for our and our children's survival must act. I truly believe that our cheek has been turned enough that we now appear faceless and I pray we enrage in a groundswell of righteous indignation that, world opinion be damned, stomps out the last vestiges of this human cancer and we can go about our arduous lives without the threat of being plucked from it simply for being freedom loving democracies. |
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| © Copyright 2001 Richard S. Wells jr. - All Rights Reserved | |||
Elizabeth
Moderator
Member Ascendant
since 1999-06-07
Posts 6871Minnesota |
God Bless America!! |
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anonymousfemale Member Elite
since 2000-02-02
Posts 2797Limbo |
*sighs* It is indeed sad what has been happening...this includes the history. ***** I am not agreeing with Terrorist activities****** Just remember that there are two sides to every story... "Kelly's my Hero!" "No, Kelly's your heroine." "Kelly has heroin??" "What?" |
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inot2B Member Elite
since 2000-09-18
Posts 2205Arkansas |
RSWells yes it is time to stand and all say ENOUGH. As a country we can only turn our cheek so many times before we say NO MORE. anonymousfemale, just wanted to ask, which side are you taking? |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
My thanks to you, Richard, for this. I know which side I am taking. My prayers, and my hands, if needed, are with and in those of our country and its leaders. Let them all go forth with our blessings, and our backing. |
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White Wolf Member
since 1999-09-18
Posts 371Somewhere in the vast wasteland |
Is it just me or has most everyone in America have bloodlust? When is enough killing enough? Is it when the body count reaches a satisfactory number or until we have killed all who threaten America? I say enough killing. There are more than enough ways to punish those responsible but must more innocent die in the process? I have heard it said that we have "turned the other cheek" far too often. I say we haven't done that at all. Every chance we get we stick our noses in to "protect our interests" and they do not belong there. I was not surprized by what happened on Tuesday. I knew something was comming. The only thing that surprizes me is that it didn't happen alot sooner. Well to each his own, I only hope this doesn't turn out to be a big war. Too many people have died so far. The White Wolf If life is just a game, when does it end cause I want to get to what is real. |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
I did not see this post as bloodlust! I must defend Richard in his attempts. I don't feel he stated the desire for death. I feel he is like many. Tired of seeing it go in vain. For I have many loved ones that have suffered and are still suffering from the acts of courage they followed through with in War torn times. Viet Nam, and Desert Storm to say just a couple. I weep for those that still cringe inside from personal involvement of War. Just as I weep for those Firefighters and Police Officers and regular citizens that died or became maimed in their attempts to save a life. They were serving their duty far above what they signed a piece of paper for. They paid with their blood. What many don't understand is that even if we do go forward into (justice) there are repercussions that come unfairly even after the fact. Such as Mental and Physical Disability from the War Site of Viet Nam, and physical disability from the Courage of helping a foreign nation. (Hepatitis) from carrying the dead from the streets of Kuwait. So I have just a minute knowledge of what War Means even after the fact. (Minute) because I was not there. But I will not sit here and say that My Loved Ones should never have been there fighting and trying to support their country and those under siege. (Or else their death and disabilities would have been in vain.) It's like saying "Well you know if you turned the other cheek you wouldn't be dying inside right now." No, but we All might be if they hadn't done SOMETHING! And certainly the dead cannot speak for themselves right now, but I think they would say they believed in what they died for. And I feel the same for our dead now still being found amongst the rubble. They should not go in vain! We must stand up and take action. For If they were living, I'm sure they would go forward and fight if one of us were buried under that rubble. Our FREEDOM has and will continue to shed blood. It is worth fighting for! I will not give up the GHOSTS of our Forefathers for the fear of more death. No matter what we do, we will not live forever. And if I go, let it be in faith and belief of a FREE COUNTRY. Our Freedom came with a price and it still will. The message is the same. We will do whatever it takes to sit here and share our feelings FREELY! Sorry Richard...I didn't mean to soap box. I understand what you are saying. As you touched upon the topic of our children. What will we tell them if we don't fight? "Well Mommy and Daddy didn't want to die, so You might since the terrorists have now surrounded your school and now there is nothing we can do." Thank you for sharing with us. Hugs and Prayers for you and yours. Sincerely, Regina |
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anonymousfemale Member Elite
since 2000-02-02
Posts 2797Limbo |
Inot2b, if I said I wasn't agreeing with terrorist activities, it is pretty obvious. "Kelly's my Hero!" "No, Kelly's your heroine." "Kelly has heroin??" "What?" |
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RSWells Member Elite
since 2001-06-17
Posts 2533 |
If you had a rabid dog running through your streets you'd demand something be done. If your neighbor was a bully who threatened, intimidated your family every time you went into your yard and did nothing would you not expect him to escalate to physical violence in the absence of any challenge? You'd at least call the authorities. Well in this situation there is no higher authority than our defense system. We could (and should) appeal to our God, A peace loving God but that probably wouldn't prevent attacks on our citizens abroad and here. Regardless of the dysfunctional relationship that led to these events they now reach our shores and I doubt they will abate. As distasteful to some as it may be we must respond because I assure you that chemical warfare is the next step and the same folks who stood astonished at the attacks of 9/11 will be dumbstruck at the news of several thousands if not millions of innocents gasping their last breath at their feet. As any street fighter knows in the event of imminent threat you hit hard and fast and don't stop till those who would harm you are rendered incapacitated. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
"If you had a rabid dog running through your streets you'd demand something be done." I don't know if this was an intended allusion to "To Kill a Mockingbird" but it's a good one. Perhaps it is time to reflect on that book. The whole book. Brad |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
First.... there is a sniper in the trees Brad -- and if there is a Boo Radley out there somewhere that can pull him down and save Scout I'm all for it. Second... Pan Am flight 103 was bombed over Lockerbie Scottland on December 21st 1988. I'm not so sure about some of the other dates Richard but it seems irrelevant to your point. Third... unlike Harper Lee's novel there is no fictional crime here -- and I think the government and the media has been very very dilligent in pointing out these are the acts of some specific characters and not of the Islamic people. Yes -- there have been Mosques shot at and cab drivers beaten -- but those too are acts of specific individuals and not the acts of America as a nation. Fourth -- I understand the emotion behind this posting Richard because when I was in college the Ayatollah had just taken over Iran and our embassy hostages taken -- seeing Jimmy Carter (a president I didn't really care for at that time) burned in effigy in the streets of Tehran made my blood boil and I was ready to join the military and go over there to fight. My chemistry lab partner's name was Gita -- that's a Persian name -- and yes -- she was from Iran -- a beautiful young lady I never saw again because we deported her after the hostage incident. She didn't want to live under rule of the new regime either. Fifth -- What's been left out of this posting is all the bullets, rockets, tanks, and planes with Made in the USA stamped on the side of them that have killed tens of thousands of Palestinians and Lebanese in the hands of Isreali soldiers. Sixth -- This posting speaks nothing of the cavalier game of Risk the west played at the end of WWII that robbed the Palestinians of their home state contributing to the majority of the situations you bring up here Richard. Seventh -- This posting also ignores the many times we have struck back Eighth -- there is a sniper in the trees and it appears as if we must do something -- but exactly what this time -- I'm not sure -- this is not going to be a replay of the Gulf War though Ninth -- Metal detectors don't detect Anthrax Tenth -- bin Laden's group works in a cellular network spanning 50 countries -- are we going to strike at all 50 Richard? Eleventh -- I am as emotionally distraught and as clueless as to what to do as everyone else Twelfth -- We all share this planet. [This message has been edited by Local Rebel (edited 09-16-2001).] |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
And Brad -- I think your reference to To Kill a Mockingbird was brilliant. If this situation is going to be resolved it will be by a Boo Radley -- someone we currently think creepy -- maybe the Pakistani government -- maybe even somebody like Khadafi or Arafat -- I believe I actually saw genuine horror on Arafat's face -- and remorse.... But that's probably a topic for philosophy. |
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RSWells Member Elite
since 2001-06-17
Posts 2533 |
I don't know where my mind was when I erroneously listed the Lockerbie date, surely I knew it was quite some time ago. In my line of work I've been exposed to the power brokers of the oil industry (this is Houston) and I will be the last to defend our out of date and insane dependence on fossil fuels which, trust me, is behind every bit of this. On numerous ocassions I've been told by these executives that we in this country have plenty of untapped oil but the intent is to use "theirs" up first. We made millionaires of any individuals who would assist us in our greed. Deals with devils. The Shah of Iran was one. The tug of war over their "allegiance" was with the Soviet Union and Bin-Laden was another devil we got in bed with supplying weapons, money and training. We now acknowledge Afghanistan as the Soviets "Vietnam". Palestine was never a nation. After World War II the Jews decided not to be victims ever again and the world being what it was (and is) no offers came forth so they decided to found their own nation. They went back to their Torah and it's teachings and the most common sense location was the Holy Land. This was done over the objections of the British and most others and many lives were lost in Israel's inception. I don't have the answers to this, many more resourceful and intelligent than I haven't either. But the Palestinians and their supporters are beyond any compromise and demand the destruction of the Jews. It's a matter of the survival of their race and history shows it will be up to them to assure it. Arafat was and IS a terrorist. Just because he wrenched a seat at the table doesn't make him respectable. Rest assured he hates America for the same reason you mentioned and that's our support and weaponry. As many times as we "struck back" it apparently was an insufficiant response for now we have lost thousands of innocents on our very shores in an attack purposely timed for maximum media exposure. To Kill A Mockingbird's Maycomb is merely a microcosm of the world which is generally speaking a planet of prejudice. I am not immune. I do however feel the average citizen of our nation at least have far more Atticus Finch in them then Bob Ewell the only character with no apparent redeeming qualities. Let us also remember that Boo Radley was forced into a life of seclusion by overbearing and unreasonable religiousity, the opium of the masses, whose fanaticism is beyond and reason or explanation, yet he too knew right and wrong at heart. As far as other nations go, their are really only a handful who have actively supported, housed, fed, armed and motivated terrorists. Some have the audacity to feign horror at last weeks events, paying lip service to decency while partying off camera. A list would include Syria, Lybia, Iraq, Iran, Sudan, Afghanastan. As inept as our overpriced intelligence community seems to be they should at least be in possesion of the knowledge of the most offensive of these renegade nations and that's where we start. Swift and decisive action which leaves no room for measuring our commitment to our very survival (and other peace loving nations) and in whose wake will be at least a fear of supporting such henious acts of destruction. There looms a much larger threat to the planet we all share in allowing this assault to go either unpunished or the task of ceasing the threat at it's source. We as a country have made mistakes, some I understand would be unforgivable. We can't change the past but can assure a more even handed approach with less taint of greed in the future and this example would go a long way towards touching the hearts of those who are either on the fence or leaning towards a nod of approval to our cumuppance. Forever float that standard sheet! |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
quote: Agreed the policy of importing oil in this country has been nationalized and is not just a policy of oil company executives. Make no mistake -- I have no respect for the big oil companies or thier blood sucking executives and I've seen firsthand the rank and file oil well / property owners in this country who were reduced to poverty because of this policy while their wells sit idle and capped until they are needed. Given the events of this week though it should be fairly clear this isn't entirely an unnecessary evil -- oil is a matter of national security and as an engineer (and one who has worked on alternative energy sources for 20 years) there is no one who would like to shift our dependence away from it more than me -- but it was Gorbachev who penned the best analaogy when he was trying to describe moving his country from Communism to Capitalism -- if you have a kerosene lamp and you want to turn it into an electric one -- while you are working on it there is no light. So yes, I'm totally in favor of revamping our infrastructure and there are ways to do it -- and yes greed does get in the way of that. quote: Yes this is partially correct.. but what is not included here is the fact that it was the (then) Western led United Nations (no third world participation and certainly no representation of the Palestinians) that first came up with the plan for a "partitioned" Palestine (which had been a British ruled state) divided into Isreali territory and Palestinian territory with an international Jerusalem. It's important to remember the Isreali's did not live there -- they came in -- and conquered the land -- with the full support of the west. Would we have allowed the Palestinians to win that war? Further after they established an unpartitioned state and an uninternational Jerusalem as outlined in UN General Assembly Resolution 181 -- they went on into battle with Jordan to obtain the remaining Palestinian lands displacing millions of innocent people from their homes... why would the free world allow this to happen? (you don't want my answer). Not only was the Isreali government not satisfied to occupy the Palestinian territory -- it then began to systematically purge the remaining Palestinians from newly conquered territory in an Ethnic Cleansing (albeit there were no smokestacks of burning Palestinians but when you round people up and toss them out of the country and steal their land what do you call that? oh.. yes.. manifest destiny like our excuse to drive Native Americans from their lands here.) quote: To the British George Washington was a terrorist. And no Richard, none of us are immune from prejudice. None of us are immune from rage when we see innocent people killed. But, I think by and large this country was a bit like Scout -- most of the people were truly innocent to the evil that exists in the world until last Tuesday and reacted to the conventional opinions and prejudices of the community at large. And yes -- the Boo Radley here is someone considered to be suspect by the conventional wisdom -- which is why I suggest it may turn out to be someone who has acted in ways -- because of the evil in the world -- that seem evil, and I have no crystal ball -- but if someone is going to 'get to' bin Laden it will be someone in the Islamic world -- and most likely someone we don't really like. As to the handful of nations that have harbored and sponsored terrorist acts -- state sponsored terrorism has been on the decline and practically non-existent for a decade because of the times when we have struck back effectively -- people with targets tend to get rational when they become targeted... but -- I'm going to quote Goerge Will from this morning's 'This Week' on ABC -- "we can't send a million dollar Tomahawk to blow up a fifteen dollar tent. (re: Afghanastan that has no targets to hit anymore.)" I do think -- however -- there is an enourmous chance that this will be linked to our old friend Saddam Hussein and if it is then we will have to take some kind of action there as well. I'm not an advocate of a capitulating turn the other cheeck peace here (and it is ironically the Christian right that is always ready to go to war) but I am for making sure we address the truth in the aftermath of all of this, during all of this for that matter since this is going to take years to resolve, because it will not be solved by bigotry or rhetoric any more than it will be solved by smart bombs. [This message has been edited by Local Rebel (edited 09-16-2001).] |
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White Wolf Member
since 1999-09-18
Posts 371Somewhere in the vast wasteland |
Ok obviously, rwood, you read things into what I wrote earlier that just are not there. I worded what I said carefully expressing my opinion I neither accused this thread or the members of this site of a state of bloodlust. I would also say that I intended no offense if any was taken. To put what I said earlier simply, in general I believe that any killing is wrong. The Bible and the God that this country was founded on says that killing is wrong. I also believe that there are many routes or paths to a single destination or goal. In that I, personally opt for one that doesn't take human life. In this time of grief I would like to see that our judgement is not impaired by the anger that we feel. Personally I am outraged that this has happens and acknowlege those people who were initially lost and the sacrifice that was and is being made to save those that survived. If we do find a way to bring those responsible to justice without loss of life we will be more respected rather than feared by the rest of the world in general. With that said I will take my leave for now. The White Wolf If life is just a game, when does it end cause I want to get to what is real. |
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Interloper
since 2000-11-06
Posts 8369Deep in the heart |
LR, George Washington was seen as a respected leader and foe. To even suggest anyone thought he was a terrorist is ludicrous. That would be like saying Pershing or Eisenhower or MacArthur or Schwartzkauf were terrorists. GARBAGE! Richard, I will stand with you and your thoughts. They seem to be well thought out and fairly presented. Ms. Wood, all I can say is Amen. White Wolf, nobody, except certain terrorist groups, likes to kill or be killed. Unfortunately, that is something that must be done in certain circumstances. I believe even you would kill to protect your children if need be, whether from a wild, vicious animal or a human being. Maybe a more thorough reading of the Bible wold be in order rather than a work of fiction. There is killing in that book too. But more than that, it speaks of loving your neighbor as the greatest commandment. It says we should not kill, but does not say we cannot wage war. LR, it also says in the Bible that the land where the Isrealis live is theirs. It was given them by God. Would you presume to supercede God's will? I think not, unless, of course, you do not believe that the Bible is God's word or that you do not believe in God, or both. |
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ParisGrl Senior Member
since 2000-06-01
Posts 610 |
This will never be enough for them. |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
White Wolf: No offense taken. I just stated my position why I felt we could not turn the other cheek. Strongly I agree. For I did feel your quote was accusatory at Richard’s post. Now faced with a lighter note, I hope I can also be as clear. Some are faced with having to kill or be killed, faced with the horrible fear that the Man with the knife is about to crash your plane into a building. I feel your last post is very kind thoughts and I cannot tell you how I wish we could all share and practice a peaceful existence never having to choose. I do not want anyone to even suffer a scratch in hatred. But I know I can't make that happen no matter how hard I try to feel a circle of protection around all humans. My position is this: I am looking at (daily) a man that may not be here with us much longer due to the last conflict in the Gulf. So I cannot refuse death as if it doesn't exist. It will come. I have to face that reality. As horrible and painful as it is. Yes, it's wrong. I hate it but I don't want to kill anyone because of it. But I do feel he has suffered enough. And I know I am not alone. We have had enough suffering, maming, and burying our dead. When will it stop? When will we no longer have to fear that someone is out there waiting to bomb our lives to shreds. Why is this man slowly dying and Sadam Hussien? still living it up? As far as the Bible, how can I leave out the many battles and wars in the story of the coming and departing of our Lord. Primarily the death of My Saviour. My first learned story of David and Goliath? And many, many more. Or the fact that many have died just to sit and be able to read the Bible and worship our God. I even agree with you that any other route should be taken if granted. If we could apprehend peacefully the guilty. Without firing a single shot, shedding a single drop of blood. But I know this is not a perfect world. If it was we wouldn’t have to search for the guilty, there would be no guilty, or at least they’de have the decency to stand up and say “I DID THIS!” I appreciate your views, but please don't think that because a person shouts out "NO MORE" that means we want to go on a naked killing spree. For most of us it just means we've reached the inward last frazzle of our coping. So in my strong post, I too meant not to seem so against peace. I question how it will come about if we know in our hearts the balance will never be. As far as taking a life, God forgive me, but I would do whatever was in my fate to do to protect others from being harmed. That is on a personal level though and War is more diplomatic? How I’m not sure. Sincerely, Regina |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Interloper -- have you ever heard of the Boston Tea party? That was an act of terrorism. Have you ever seen the movie The Patriot starring Mel Gibson? His character Benjamin Martin is a hero to us and a terrorist to his foe. His character is actually an amalgamation of men like Francis Marion aka the Swamp Fox, Daniel Morgan, Elijah Clark, Thomas Sumter, and Andrew Pickens. These were all men who tamed the wilderness first and learned the evasive battle style of the Native Americans they were fighting with and against depending upon which tribe. To the British they were terrorists -- as were all American rebel forces. The funny thing about history is the victors always get to write it. Did you notice that all of the Generals you mentioned are American? Which is what I'm assuming you are since you're in Texas. And, this may be difficult to comprehend, but there are places where the Bible is not a legally binding deed, but thank you for making my arguments ever more obvious to see. But I will gladly defend your right to your beliefs, opinions, and speech. I am assuming that since you use the word 'Bible' that you are some form of Christian and therefore I ask you -- What would Jesus Do? Still waiting for Boo. [This message has been edited by Local Rebel (edited 09-18-2001).] |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
My point in referring to a piece of literature (fiction) wasn't to give us a map but to reflect on the way we make decisions. Literature, some would argue, has value because it allows us to see things that we don't normally see in the everyday, "real" world. I was thinking of Atticus Finch (Gregory Peck in the movie) versus Bob Ewell (and thanks for the names, I didn't remember them). Boo was an interesting surprise but still useful. If the Bible does that for you, great. If you see the Bible, however, as a map for your decisions, it's still you, me, us, who make them. And we're still responsible for them. Brad |
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Interloper
since 2000-11-06
Posts 8369Deep in the heart |
LR - To my knowledge, and according to a history professor with whom I am acquainted, no lives were lost during the Boston Tea Party. It was an act of civil disobedience and, from the British point of view, vandalism and theft. With regard to Marion, et al, they conducted no acts of terrorism. They killed no innocent bystanders, women or children. The British believed there was only one way to wage land warfare and they were unble to deal with guerilla tactics. They were used to uniformed men standing in lines 50 meters apart and shooting at each other until one army retreated. There is a difference in creating terror in the hearts of your foe and committing a terrorist act that kills the innocent. I should think a learned man such as yourself would readily see the difference. OK, I named only American military leaders. I admit I am predisposed to favoring the American foundation and, in turn, American icons and/or heroes. However, I will mention DeGaulle, Montgomery, Rommel, etc. as honorable military leaders. I would be remiss if I failed to mention Sam Houston as an honorable military leader since I do, in fact, reside in Texas which, last time I checked, is still a proud member of the USA. Shux, we even had a battleship named after our state. I believe I can comprehend most anything you write. I KNOW I believe everything God has to say and I KNOW the Bible is His Word. I fail to see how the Bible makes your "argument" obvious (and I agree, you DO tend to argue as opposed to debate). With regard to WWJD, if you are a Christian, as I am, you would know. You would also know what His Father would do. As any father who discovered that his children did wrong ... He would, and will, punish them. Just what the instrument of that punishment will be has yet to be seen. Just maybe it will be the armed might of the USA. Or, it could be.... even the "imperialistic" Isrealis. Or, Great Brittain. Or ... Golly, I guess we will see when it happens. As for defending my beliefs, I thank you. I believe this has brought us, citizens of the USA, closer together. We may not agree on what course of action should be taken, but we do agree that the perpetrators and leaders who planned, financed, and carried out this cowardly act should be found and punished. Brad - I believe the Bible gives us rules by which to live. It also teaches us that we, children of God, will be punished if we do wrong. And, yes, whoever makes the decision(s) will, I pray, seek and receive the guidance of God. I believe that this heinous act has brought all of America together ... the liberals, conservatives, all ethnicities, all religions, all Americans with a common goal. When Japan's military leaders reflected immediately after the attack on Pearl Harbor they said that they had awakened a sleeping giant and they did, indeed, pay the price. Now those who were part of all terrorist acts, worldwide, will have to pay the price. Unabashedly I say, God bless America and God bless all here at Passions. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
It is interesting that so many religions in the world have the feeling that people have to do something to 'help' God carry out 'his' punishment. And it's also interesting how many people feel that if someone has a differing opinion from thier own there must be something lacking in education or 'learning' or just downright intellect in the other person. Re: creating terror in your foe's heart vs. terrorism that kills innocent bystanders -- if a 'learned man like me' understands all that you write correctly then -- in the Revolutionary War we were not terrorists -- but in the firebombing of Dresden say -- we were since we killed thousands of innocents, or in Viet Nam, or even Desert Storm where there was collateral damage...Korea too.. so then by your definition here McArthur, Eisenhower, and Schwartzkopf were in fact terrorists. You presuppose in your personal attacks on me that I have some need to defend whether or not I am a Christian and further that if I am one I must not be a very good one if I do not agree with the way that YOU interpret your religion. Now I'm really trying to envision Jesus with an M-16 but I just can't quite get to that picture. quote: [This message has been edited by Local Rebel (edited 09-19-2001).] |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
LR: I feel that quote of Martin Luther King Jr's was one of the most well meaning ever among many. But He was murdered in hate! It seems when we love and try to spread peace, we are magnets for hate and cannot even finish a sincere sentence without dodging bullets. Now we have thousands trying to kill us. For whatever reason. Will we now just put all our dead's names in a hat and start naming streets after them? Please excuse my sarcasm, I mean no offense. I loved the message he tried to spread. But we are so wide scale now. And I know that many of the people who died from this crime were just as good as he was. As for Jesus....well...we will never be as good from my own personal view....And I think no one knows that better than God. What to do, what to think. Please see I'm searching and trying here, not bashing or being self centered. I am strong, but not too weak to say I can't find the answers...yet. God help us think through this clearly. Sincerely, Regina [This message has been edited by rwood (edited 09-19-2001).] |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Regina.. we have to pursue justice -- we have to get the sniper out of the tree -- as I've said before. But the post you put in announcements re: the other side of the coin here should be an indication that an indiscriminant act of war is going to escalate this into something we don't want. The administration finally pointed out today that just 'getting' our man is not going to do the trick here -- and they're right. But what we have to do is get our man and then wage the war with peace -- or else we'll have about a half a billion bin Ladens coming at us. |
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Honeybee Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-26
Posts 5372Ontario, CANADA |
I just watched the news, and I am DISGUSTED! I shall stand behind the U.S and defend freedom, but, it was reported that an American plane (within the last few days) went into Afghanistan and bombed a mosque and a school, and KILLED 6 INNOCENT CHILDREN! This is wrong!!!! Oshama Bin Laden is the terrorist not 6 innocent children. And don't tell me that the pilot did not know he was bombing a school! I am frieken angry. I COULD SCREAM. This american pilot is just as nasty as Bin Laden now. Thank God I'm Canadian. This type of vengence is horrible and immoral and proves nothing! And please do not misconstrue what I am trying to say here. I am not here to fight. Like I said, Canada is united with the world and the USA. I loathe Bin Laden and all the terrorists for the horrible act they committed against New York and Washington. It deeply upsets me, I'm still in shock. I agree that the USA and the united nations must take serious military action against terrorists and such countries, but, 6 children did not have to die in Afghanistan!  [This message has been edited by Melissa Honeybee (edited 09-19-2001).] |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
LR: Yes...I don't want anyone innocent to die. How can we peacefully go in? I am confused but all for it. What is a peaceful way to get the sniper? Unarmed....beg for the country to turn him over...ask for him to turn himself over? What would be the peaceful solution against the masses if they and he refuses. Which it's evident that he is a coward and will hide. Thank you for allowing my questions and I know they must seem naive...but I just want to be more clear at what a peaceful retaliation will be. I would just like to hear your views, for I know you cannot provide me the exact events to proceed. I know that no one can forsee what will really happen. Melissa! I'm sorry. I did not know or hear anything about what you posted. I have been away from the news for the stress. I hope this is not true. Please no! |
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rosepetals25
since 2000-05-31
Posts 3076PA |
I hate the fact that we have to go war. The fact is however.. we have to. If we let what happened on Sept. 11 pass with a mere slap on the wrist, what does that tell the rest of the world? We have to show that we will not allow this kind of horror and terror to happen in our country. I hate the fact that innocent people will die. And I completely agree with Melissa.. the bombing of the school was cruel and as horrific as the what happened here. That should have never happened. It was an immoral and disgusting thing to do. We have to strike back to those who deserve our wrath...not an elementry school. My prayers are with all the innocent people who will die in the fight we must see through... both our men and women and the innocent men, women, and children of other countries. [This message has been edited by rosepetals25 (edited 09-20-2001).] |
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NapalmsConstantlyConfused
since 2001-05-15
Posts 529 |
melissa - who reported this? because they were in error, the only people that have been killed in Afghanistan in the last 6 months have been killed due to their own internal political turmoil. the US does not now, nor have they in the last 6 months, had ANY agents over there, or any military units in range to attack, or ANYthing. there are planes getting ready to leave to go there, true, but as of noon today none of them had left yet, and our two aircraft carriers are still almost 1000 miles away. in other news: ladies and gentlemen, if you're going to question the policy of attacking the terrorists and the nations who harbor them, you might do better to ask the people who are going to perform those attacks what THEY think first. you have the right to disagree, the right to say what you like, and the right to do basically whatever the hell you want to because there are soldiers, sailors, marines, and airmen out there who risk their lives every day to provide you with that safety. i know. i used to be one of 'em. my former unit is on alert to go, and there is every chance that i will get called up to go wreak havoc in the name of justice for slain American citizens. if they call me, i will go. tara doesn't like the idea, and i'm not gonna go run sign up again, but if they call me, i WILL go. why? because NO-ONE has the right to attack my home. because NO-ONE has the right to drop a plane full of American citizens in an attempt to squish my girlfriend. BECAUSE THIS IS MY HOME. no matter what you may say about "most of them didn't hurt us" you seem to have a double standard as regards us. _I_ certainly never took anyone's homeland, butted my nose into the business of "the peaceful islamic people" of the world, or any other such foolishness. neither did you. none of us here in this forum EVER OPPRESSED OR INVADED ANYBODY. thus: the Taliban is wrong for supporting attacks on innocent civilians. the US response? "we will pursue _those responsible for these attacks_ (underscore mine) and the governments that support them." END QUOTE. where does that say anything about killing innocent civilians? folks, if you're innocent, step away from the area of impact. if you rush right in to defend your terrorist government, you're guilty of collaboration, which is a FELONY here in the US, in case there was someone here who was confused. if you're guilty, well, we have smart bombs for a reason. get ready to find out why. if you're not one of the people that this refers to, then it doesn't refer to you. since none of you are terrorists (that i know of, of course :P ) this doesn't apply to you. so: don't bother sending me emails to complain about my "tone." i have first-hand experience with this, having been shot at by terrorists MYSELF, thanks. the easiest way to deal with the enemy is by use of a .50 cal to the forehead. -NCC, posting in here only because tara asked him to I Love The Smell Of Napalm In The AM! |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Well Regina the first thing that had to happen has happened. Islam as a religion practiced by the vast majority of it's followers has a huge respect for due process. The administration has said repeatedly when asked about proof of bin Laden's involvement that it isn't prepared to discuss intelligence issues -- which is perfectly understandable -- but apparently with the investigation of over 4000 FBI agents and whatever the NSA and CIA have dug up -- something has been convincing enough for President Bush to move to a 'Dead or Alive' scenario with bin Laden. Knowing who is responsible is half of the battle -- knowing where he is is the other half. Sabre rattling with airplanes is fine policy that should make our position clear to the Taleban -- if it hasn't been made clear already by the Pakistani government. If the Taleban decide for some reason to allow us to pursue him, which would be doubtful, it would still be a difficult task to find him. Early indications are this will be a special forces operation on the ground -- from some of the other threads we've talked on and on this one most should be aware by now that there's little to bomb in Afghanastan. If there is to be any kind of classical 'military' action I would most likely suspect it would be aimed largely at specific points of Pakistan if the Pakistani government can't produce results or at least convince the world that it's doing its' best. Even though bin Laden is 'in' Afghanastan according to reports he and his al-Qa'ida regularly use Peshawar the capital of the Northwest Frontier in Pakistan -- it is adjacent to the Khyber Pass and is regularly used by al-Qa'ida members for passage into and out of Afghanastan for thier terrorist acts as well as a communications center where they can get to civilized things like telephones and internet connections. It's important to remember though that Pakistan has been successful in developing nuclear weapons. If this turns into us against Pakistan the al-Qa'ida network would be an easy delivery method. Just slap one in a suitcase -- put it in the hands of a suicide bomber -- and send him off in a jet. Assuming we have a limited campaign against Afghani targets even for special forces its going to be very difficult to negotiate the terrain and find exactly where bin Laden is. Our best bet right now is to use a big chunk of the 40 billion dollars we've appropriated for this operation to 'turn' some of the people that are close to bin Laden -- and believe it or not -- even though his success in striking the Pentagon and WTC has made him stronger in the Islamic world it has made him weaker as well. This puts him into a position to be the defacto leader of Islamic peoples who are not only hacked off at the U.S. but at their own governments. They have no democracies. They live under oppressive regimes. Half of the reason most of the Muslims there hate us is not just about our support of Isreal -- but because we support the regimes that are in power -- just as we supported the Shah of Iran. Because he is now in this position others who have their own agendas could view a couple of billion dollars as just the thing they might need to pull him down and bolster their own movements -- a dirty business but it is probably the way it will happen. Ahmad Shah Mas'ud might be useful to that end and may be a name you hear more about in the coming weeks or months. It's my understanding though it has been very difficult until now to recruit NOC's (non-official covers -- a type of spy akin to mission impossible but usually people who are native to the target region) due to restrictions put in place by the Clinton administration because we didn't want to 'do business' with terrorists. If there are a few strategic targets that can be hit with air sorties I'm sure we would do it for the tokenism of it. But what we need is information that can lead us to the terrorist cells wherever they are. There are basically seven nations that the State Department considers active in either state sponsored terrorism or harboring renegade groups like bin Ladens. It would be a clear mistake for us to wage some kind of all out conventional war with these nations. We would risk turning the entire region against us if we did... and then what? The way to wage a war with peace is to make sure the people have something to lose -- and to make sure they get better acquainted with us. We'll have to work toward more democratic governments for them to live in, more distribution of wealth within the region, and better education and opportunity for the people. People with nothing to lose are the most dangerous there are -- combine that with the particular brand of fundamentalism preached by the Taleban and Osama bin Laden and it's adding gasoline to the fire. In short I think these are the avenues that are being pursued by this administration and I haven't said anything critical about what is being done anywhere. In fact -- the administration itself has said basically the same things I have -- this is not going to be another Gulf War. Some people seem to be expecting that though. Outrage is understandable. It is to be expected. But we have to stop and wage this campaign with our brains instead of our tears. The most important thing we can do as civilian individuals is remain optimistic and continue to go about our lives as we always have. And that includes tempering our rage. Hate is a dead thing. Who of you would be a tomb? -Kahlil Gibran [This message has been edited by Local Rebel (edited 09-20-2001).] |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Oh.. and thanks for the questions Regina -- I think you helped write my essay I owed my site for Friday. |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
LR: Wow! Thank you! There are methods that I did not know, Honestly did not realize that held some promise. I know it's a lot of ifs and buts, but at least there is some light shed on what we can possibly do to get the sniper. You see I have always been on this side hoping and rooting and praying for the safe return of our soldiers and service men and women in past conflicts. It was the extent of my energy. I could not really make myself think about the actual tactics they would be carrying out. Because It tore down my confidence of a safe return. When you have loved ones (in it) you sort of go numb and sink into a vigilance and block out the events taking place. I just did a whole lot of praying and carrying on and helping others to cope with their emotions on the home front. This time, I am forced to think clearly, I'm not a military dependent anymore. So the view is to watch others and their loved ones start to board the ships for War. I feel like I am lost! Does that make sense. I am forced to look at things I never had to before. Like the actual boots footfalling on the soil, and standby's that will be lifted. Then what? That is the place I'm feeling like a fish out of water. I want to know what our government plans to do. I want to understand what will happen next and why. I want to support and see the reasoning behind the men and women that will carry it out for us. I can't go numb anymore because it hit home to us in a way it never has before. I see where the peaceful and well meaning will be of great help to all. And I see where the alternative will be rendered in rejection of peace. I, myself have made a decision that the sniper has to die, one way or the other. And I have made peace with that inside. The poison must be cut off to end this insanity affecting our lives and slowly disintergrating our integrity, our brains. The antidote is clear now. It must be extracted from the source. Thank you so much for helping me see the grit beyond the grand. As far as the comment on the U.S. bombing innocent school children. Being untrue! That is just one more indication that the evil wants us all dead. Including those that received the information of the intended rape of a nation and what our people stand for. My heart goes out to all. God be with us. Let freedom ring for us and for the innocent and impoverished that don't even know what it is. [This message has been edited by rwood (edited 09-20-2001).] |
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BrightStar Member
since 2001-04-08
Posts 219 |
LR you jumped all over Interloper accusing him of things he never said or even intimated. He was SOOOOO right in calling you argumentative. He never said anybody had to "help" God do anything, let alone carry out His "punishment." That was just a downright rude and imperious comment. If you don't know the difference between a declared war and an act of terrorism, you have your head in the sand. Even relating the bombing of Dresden (you did not mention Tokyo let alone Nagasaki or Hiroshima) to an act of terrorism is almost unbelievable. Where did he accuse you of lacking education? It looks like to me that he said you were a learned man. Certainly you let us know you attended college and are an engineer. I fail to see where Interloper got personal with you, but, then, you take debate as argument and, as a result, you take anything that does not agree with your beliefs as a personal attack on you. For heaven's sake, where did he even intimate you were not a christian or even a bad christian? Your comment about Jesus with an M-16 is ridiculous. Are you Rush's liberal cousin? |
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Interloper
since 2000-11-06
Posts 8369Deep in the heart |
Thank you, BrightStar, for taking up for me. As much as I appreciate your thoughts and sentiment I believe I am capable of speaking for myself. I know what I wrote and I know what is in my heart. LR, I forgive you and ask that you forgive me if you feel that I have offended or attacked you on a personal basis. |
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White Wolf Member
since 1999-09-18
Posts 371Somewhere in the vast wasteland |
Ok I am back again with another comment from the peanut gallery. I don't whole heartedly agree with what I am about to say but in my opinion it is better than any bullets being fired at the tree that has a sniper in it. I don't think I have read this anywhere in this post but if it has please forgive me. Lets just say that a sniper is in a tree and no one person could get within three blocks of him without being shot. How do you get him out of the tree? You could rush him with overwhelming numbers but this would get people killed. We also know that he is being supplied or at the very least being harbored by the people that own the tree. What if insted of rushing the tree we bring the owners of that tree to thier "knees" through economics. How long do you think those poeple would continue to harbor this sniper? Chances are not too long. Do we have an agreement that is called NATO with the power to economicly strangle those countries that harbor this sniper. I think you can see where this ends. Yes it does intitle some risk of war but less than actually firing shots and killing people. The peanut gallery is closed for now. The White Wolf If life is just a game, when does it end cause I want to get to what is real. |
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Carolina Member
since 2001-08-17
Posts 224Myrtle Beach, SC |
I have heard nothing about the above-referenced bombings in Afghanistan. I'm sure our press in the States would be ALL OVER that news, but I've also learned from Dessert Storm not to believe everything that comes out of some countries unless it's from a verified "international" press source. Live today as if it's your last. Love today as if it's your first. Lisa |
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Carolina Member
since 2001-08-17
Posts 224Myrtle Beach, SC |
And it warms my heart  to know that my husband will be risking his life so that ANYONE and EVERYONE that lives in a "free" country, can and will have the right to speak their minds and speak their hearts,(everything that has been going on at this site since September 11th) and not have to worry about being killed for speaking against a certain religion, government, etc. Live today as if it's your last. Love today as if it's your first. Lisa |
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inot2B Member Elite
since 2000-09-18
Posts 2205Arkansas |
I heard on (I think) Sixty Minutes yesterday that the bombing on Afganistan was from last year when impeached Ex President Clinton was in charge. |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
First; to Regina, if there's anything that I've said that's helped you in any way through these very dark days it is I that thanks you for having an opportunity to give my support to a fellow countryman and human. One thing that I neglected to put into my edited and re-edited posting I composed in the wee hours of the morning was that if anyone wants to have a model for what this operation is going to look like from the outside I would offer the illustration of some kind of combination of our efforts in Somalia and in Panama when we went to arrest Manuel Noriega. And, I would remind everyone of the difficulties we had in obtaining General Noriega in a country that was close to us, close to water, familiar terrain, and we knew where he was. Infinite Justice will be ultimately successful but I presume there will be many casualties, military and collateral. We killed an estimated 200 to 2000 innocent civilians when we invaded Panama. I have no idea why the estimation has such a wide gap--its' just what our State Department has told us. Second to Brightstar and Interloper; I'm not going to insult anyone's intelligence by trying to deny that when I said quote: that I wasn't aiming both of those comments at Interloper even though I did not outright accuse him in those comments. In the English language we don't have to always say exactly what we mean in order for people to understand what is going on. I accept your apology Interloper and in the interest of fostering 'debate' instead of personal attacks I'm going to offer this primer for anyone who is reading this thread -- it is not aimed at anyone here. When it was said: quote: what is really meant is;--you better not challenge what I have to say because I represent God here and if you challenge me you are challenging God and are going to go to hell. When it was said; quote: This is another veiled personal attack and attempt at argumentum ad hominem - an attempt to discredit anything I have to say by calling me unchristian and therefore labeling my positions as 'anti-Christ'. When it was said; quote: The words 'I should think a learned man such as yourself' mean-- if you don't agree with my position you are obviously unintelligent. Brightstar regarding your attempt at argumentum ad hominem by calling me a 'liberal' and 'Rush' (Limbaugh) all I can say is I don't think the term liberal is a dirty word and I also don't think there is anything wrong with Rush Limbaugh. I disagree with his views on some points but he's an excellent communicator and entertainer and has never purported to be anything else. So, thank you. However, I am not a Liberal -- my position on the political spectrum is moderate. Further, words like 'ludicrous' and 'garbage' are not debate terminology and I don't think you'll find me casting aspersions in any of my posts anywhere like that. Re: Jesus with an M-16, there is absolutely no reason why that is a ludicrous proposition because wherever I see the acronym WWJD on t-shirts, bumper stickers, buttons, badges, billboards, et al -- I know what that means. The life of Christ is supposed to be an example of how a 'Christian' is to live. Last: let me just say I think this thread should be a clear example of the escalation process when people set out to 'retaliate' instead of pursue justice. Yes Regina -- people who pursue peace are regularly attacked and quite often killed including Jesus of Nazareth. Hate is a dead thing. Who of you would be a tomb? -Kahlil Gibran [This message has been edited by Local Rebel (edited 09-20-2001).] |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
White Wolf, I appreciate your sentiments in suggesting we pursue economic sanctions but the reality is that when we do that we do wind up hurting the innocent. The people in power in those countries are able to ensure that whatever resources are availiable will be diverted to them -- they don't starve -- innocent men women and children do. Those kind of economic sanctions are difficult to enforce too which is why they never worked in Cuba, Iraq, Iran, or anywhere else they have been tried. The just thing, the kindest thing we can do is act intelligently but decisivly -- and then work to rebuild that whole region the way we rebuilt Germany and Japan after WWII. Carolina: I agree -- I'm proud to be a citizen of and defend a country where it is safe for Jerry Falwell and Bill Maher to make total idiots of themselves. Amen |
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rwood Member Elite
since 2000-02-29
Posts 3793Tennessee |
quote: quote: Just wish we peacemakers could live a little longer than the idiots do. But Of course it's not in vain. The message still rings out for us to spread. This is a good example of how things get stirred up and become a religous war...or snap session. I feel....and I know yall will correct me if I'm wrong...but more blood has been shed in the name of religion than anything else. Which is quite ironic in our intentions. Because I believe most all Gods...or higher powers support life and the embrace of it. So could it be possible...since we're all human here that when we chose our religion that our belief(conviction or opinion) can sometimes be misconstrued with the Entity? quote: To me this means...What is good in us and around us...we can never take the credit for. It is a gift from God. Unchanging, beyond all shadows of doubt. So If our religion may vary, our perception may vary, our degree of devotion may vary, wouldn't it then be us, and not him in our attempts to follow by the practice of our religion? And isn't that why we are now about to fight what some are calling a Holy War over there? Because in their intentions to follow their God they have found it necessary to misconstrue their God into a divine battle plan to snuff out us devils over here? I mean Hey!....7 Virgin Wives? I know many that would not call that a gift. But to each his own. God Is Love yall.......And we're all a piece of the great puzzle. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Uh, what debate? |
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Local Rebel Member Ascendant
since 1999-12-21
Posts 5767Southern Abstentia |
Exactly Brad... and.. Masood is dead.. didn't realize that... bin Laden killed him the same time he was attacking the Trade Center... oh well...we'll still be able to use the Northern Alliance even without him. |
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