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Passions in Poetry

Horrible image in my mind

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catalinamoon
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The Shores of Alone


0 posted 06-23-2001 11:55 AM       View Profile for catalinamoon   Email catalinamoon   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit catalinamoon's Home Page   View IP for catalinamoon

I'm sure I am not the only one with this happening right now. But any ideas how to get the vision out of my mind of that horrible scenario with the mother killing her 5 children? My 3 little grandchildren are the ages of three of those babies, and this is just haunting me to the point where I have to fight to take it out of my head.
I know that replacing bad thoughts with good is one way, but there are not enough good things I can think of that will erase this. Help!
Elizabeth
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America the beautiful


1 posted 06-23-2001 12:12 PM       View Profile for Elizabeth   Email Elizabeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Elizabeth's Home Page   View IP for Elizabeth

How much your kids love your grandkids, and how much you love your grandkids.  
LoveBug
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2 posted 06-23-2001 05:08 PM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

Think of our Heavenly Father taking the little angels to a place where they will never have to feel the pain of being unloved.

"Men judge generally more by the eye than by the hand, for everyone can see and few can feel."-Machiavelli

ShadowLost
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3 posted 06-24-2001 05:52 PM       View Profile for ShadowLost   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ShadowLost

Lovebug says it perfectly.  A horrible tragedy and truth of life on earth.  Imagine them in a better place, happy, and with someone who loves them unconditionally.

~ShadowLost~

...and now these three things remain: faith, hope and love.  But, the greatest of these is love. 1 Corinthians 13.13

Skyfyre
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since 08-15-99
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Sitting in Michael's Lap


4 posted 06-24-2001 08:34 PM       View Profile for Skyfyre   Email Skyfyre   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Skyfyre

*brrr*

I cannot imagine what was going through that woman's head ... I was going to write a poem about it but I fear it would have violated some of the guidelines ...

Some poems, I fear, are better left unwritten.
hush
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since 05-27-2001
Posts 1693
Ohio, USA


5 posted 06-24-2001 11:20 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

there are some things that you can't put out of your head- it's best to accept that it happens & deal with it instead of shoving it away.

I guess the best way to look at it is this; things happen for a reason, and eventually the scales get tipped even. In the case of children who haven't had the chance to experience the ups and downs, it will be made up to them somehow, in an afterlife or a rebirth. I don't have any reason for this conviction other than the fact that I would go insane withtout it- but it makes sense- even laws of physics state that for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction (note: I am not talking about punishment for the mother. I am talking about something so wonderful it counterbalances the horror of those deaths.) So really, it makes sense, whether you are a scientist or a religious person at heart.

everything's fine.

Dopey Dope
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6 posted 06-25-2001 08:42 PM       View Profile for Dopey Dope   Email Dopey Dope   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Dopey Dope

*sigh* such a tragedy....but they are somewhere better....that's all i think about.
Fading Away
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7 posted 06-25-2001 09:16 PM       View Profile for Fading Away   Email Fading Away   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Fading Away

Dopey's right.  They are somewhere much better.  That's a comforting thought.
Linc
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8 posted 06-28-2001 09:09 PM       View Profile for Linc   Email Linc   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Linc

Hey,

   I assume you are talking about that mother who was in depression I forget the name but from what I understand it works in four stages. One can be a phychotic (sp) stage. They think she was in that stage of the depression. But I can't help but feel sorry for the mother because if she truly didn't know what she was doing, she is going to be lock up in a phyc. ward for the rest of her life. Think of what she is going to be like when she comes out of the depression and finds out she killed her children. How would you feel? I imagin she would go crazy who could live with the knowledge that they killed their children (remembering that she is totaly back to normal if you can call it that). This is just what I know about the story.

        -- Linc

       "Blood Moon"
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hush
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9 posted 06-28-2001 11:32 PM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

Linc,
I tend to think that her postpartum depression is just a weak excuse. I might be more inclined to believe that explanation had she shot her children, but what she did took quite a bit of time. She had a good chance to realize what she was doing. In addition, her husband was very forgiving in interviews, and remained remarkably composed considering what had just happenned. It seems like it was premeditated to me.

I for one am going to be very annoyed if she becomes the new posterchild for the mental health... movement? industry? whatever they call it... I think women need to quit babying themselves, and should never be allowed to use depression as an excuse for murder. The more people see 'mental illness' as being an acceptable escape route, the more they will use it.

everything's fine.

Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 07-17-99
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10 posted 06-29-2001 12:02 AM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

Hush: Hmmmm....women babying themselves? Depression as an excuse? Let me just be the devil's advocate here for one moment. Part of postpartum depression includes command hallucinations and delusions. It is possible that she was 'instructed' to kill her children. Even if it took a long time...she might not have known what she was doing at all - but through that entire period, felt that she was making rational, logical decisions..

Quote from a newspaper article:

quote:
Mothers who kill their children believe that they are saving them from a terrible world.


Which is of course a delusion. She also has said she killed her children because she thought she was a bad mother. Another delusion.

We have to be careful how we judge. Really. Yes - it was a terrible thing to happen. And maybe it was a gross, premeditated crime. But maybe it wasn't Hush. Maybe it wasn't. The brain is a weird, weird thing.

K

I am a refugee of logic...insisting
on unlikely land with every step.

Romy
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Plantation, Florida


11 posted 06-29-2001 11:03 AM       View Profile for Romy   Email Romy   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Romy

I agree with Severn.
I have had four children and although I never suffered post-partum depression to that degree, I do remember having some. For a few days after the births, I remember feeling weepy or sad for no apparent reason.   I don't think I was "babying myself" Or using my depression as a "weak excuse" for my odd behavior.
A woman endures great change, physically, emotionally and mentally during a pregnancy.
Thankfully, I returned to "normal" each time, but one in a thousand women who experience this cannot, without help. Although I am not defending the woman who killed her own children, I can believe that in some way, her condition may have played a part in it. It's horrible yes, but as Severn has said,"the brain is a weird, weird thing".
Postpartum depression is real.  
Maybe you should read up on the subject before you judge women who are suffering from this kind of trauma. We may be sickened by the actions taken from some people that suffer from serious depression, but it IS an illness, not an excuse, and it must be treated.  
hush
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since 05-27-2001
Posts 1693
Ohio, USA


12 posted 06-30-2001 01:15 AM       View Profile for hush   Email hush   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for hush

You're right, maybe I should research the illness itself more, since I don't have much understanding of it- but here is the thing- it all boils down to the way we perceive mental illnesses and mood disorders. I tend to take the view that when people over anylyze things like emotions, which are by nature an individual thing, and place them into textbook classifications, and then proceed to tell their 'patients' what symtoms they are exhibiting, what symptoms they are likely to exhibit, and how to combat the illness, that the individual emotion is influenced by the intellectual input of doctors who basically say 'no, it's not okay to feel that way'.  What usually happens then is that the patient is pigeonholed into thinking they are sick, they will always be sick, and the only hope of stability they have is pills and therapy. The people I have known to go into therapy and go on psychoactive drugs don't usually get any better, In fact, most of them get worse, and they usually don't get out of therapy. One can argue the terminal nature of mental illness- I argue the terminal nature of the power of suggestion.

I realize that because of my lack of textbook knowledge on various mental disorders that I really can't back up my arguement against women (and men, as well, they just don't apply to this particular illness) babying themselves with statistics and proven facts- but that's just the thing. I have had real-life experience with these issues, in family, friends, and myself- and I choose not to treat the human condition (that being, the emotional condition) with a textbook perspective. The problem with this textbook perspective is that when other people who have committed crimes exhibit some of these signs, they can excuse themselves of their behavior by saying 'I can't help it. I'm mentally ill.' (I have heard people use this excuse before, in personal altercations. It DOES happen.)

Now, I am a true believer in mind power, and in one taking account for how they feel, and the way they treat their emotions. That may account for my vitrolic reaction to all things that have to do with mental health- and so I don't sound quite as one-sided, I'll share a bit about myself- I have been diagnosed with clinical depression and social anxiety. I was placed on medication and put in therapy. It didn't help, and when I told my psychiatrist I was having a bad reaction to a med (the zoloft was giving me the shakes) he blew me off, told me it was just my nerves and gave me 'anxiety pills'. It was years ago and my mother handled my medication at the time, so I don't remember what it was- but basically it turned out that the night-time pill put me in a coma and gee golly guess what! So did the day pill- so the mental health industy's (key word industry- a manufacturing activity designed to make money) key to treating me was shutting me up- and it's that way all over. I have been bounced to different places as some didn't work out, and guess what, it was all the same medical jargon run-around- take a pill, fill out the anger-management workbook, let's talk about why your emotions are irrational....

Now, as I have distanced myself from that, gone through the problems of my 'clinical illnesses' myself, found the root of my problems, and dealt with it, I am a happy healthy social person. I did it without drugs, without therapy, without professionals, and believe me, I'm not remarkably strong or independent. I'm a normal girl who in adolescence retaliated, went through a few normal teenage issues (and maybe a few not-so-normal ones) and had a period of unhappiness. It happens to everyone at some point in life. People could deal with their emotions if they weren't constantly told that they can't by every medical office in the nation (maybe it's different outside the u.s., I don't know)

But, as I've really gone off on a tangent, let me get back to the point.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mothers who kill their children believe that they are saving them from a terrible world.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Blanket statement? I'm sorry- it sounds like an excuse to me- yes, of a clearly deranged mind- but does the virtue of derangement grant this woman immunity? Obviously she is going to be punished, I don't doubt that- she's in Texas, so she'll probably get death (which, btw, I am desperately against). But I can't help but think of another child killer- Timothy McVeigh- he was obviously not in his right mind either to do what he did- but in the Alley there is a post crucifying his memory! Do we feel more pity for this texas woman because, perhaps, she is a woman, and in our society it's simply easier to view women as victims rather than murderers? Food for thought.

Romy- you obviously weren't babying yourself (that is, to say, indulging in your negative feelings) because you have returned to normal each time. I guess without a clear textbook knowledge it seems natural to me that women would suffer a short period of depression after birthing a child- after all, a soul was just removed from inside your womb, which must feel empty after nine months of growth in there- or, if you don't like the mushy spritual logic, you can just figure that after pregnancy, your hormones are sure to be out of whack, not to mention the huge new responsibility. Of COURSE your feelings are gonna go haywire! It's the idea that the natural reaction is an illness that allows it to become to debilitating. See where I'm coming from?

In conclusion, I would like to apologize for my long-windedness, but maybe it helps explain where I'm coming from, and I don't sound quite as heartless, uneducated, or one-sided. I would also like to apologize for throwing out that comment without a more solid reasoning behind it, and offending anyone in the process.

Thanks.

everything's fine.

Romy
Senior Member
since 05-28-2000
Posts 1226
Plantation, Florida


13 posted 06-30-2001 11:03 AM       View Profile for Romy   Email Romy   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Romy

Hush,
I appreciate your further comments on this interesting (and controversial) subject, and I applaud your ability to overcome your own period of depression without the help of medication.  I agree that certain medications are not always the answer, and for many it may actually cause more harm than good.
However, Post-Partum depression is not just an emotional problem, it is caused by dramatic physical changes in the body.  The type that I experienced after the births of my children, is common in 80% of women after childbirth.  It is often referred to as “baby blues” and is caused by a sudden drop in hormone levels.  It’s a minor and temporary disorder that causes poor sleep, moodiness and irritability.  On the other hand, a more serious type of Post-Partum depression is called Postpartum Psychosis.  Occurring in only 1 in 1000 births, the symptoms are more severe and the woman experiences agitation, hallucinations and bizarre feelings or behaviors.  There are other factors involved that can add to the problem, including existing psychological problems, lifestyle, marital problems, family support and low self-esteem.
Although many women experience some type of post-partum depression, most don’t recognize that they have an illness, or seek treatment.
This type of depression is not always something that can be “worked out”.  It occurs within days after giving birth, too soon I believe, for a woman to be influenced by the “intellectual input” of a doctor. It’s a physical change in the body that causes fluctuations in the balance of hormones and chemical changes in the brain.  Certain drugs along with psychological and emotional support can help.
The case of the woman who killed her own children was extreme, but there have been other cases of women who have had the same thoughts, who may have followed through, had they not received help in time.

You said:

“it seems natural to me that women would suffer a short period of depression after birthing a child”

Would it also seem natural or possible that as with a cold left untreated, that one would either get better on their own, or in some cases get worse without treatment?

This is just more of my own opinion and some real facts.  Thanks for the interesting debate!
Debbie




  






Severn
Member Rara Avis
since 07-17-99
Posts 8273


14 posted 07-01-2001 10:38 PM       View Profile for Severn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Severn

But what is 'natural' anyway?
Is mental illness 'natural'? Are our treatments of it 'natural'? I find issues of naturality very interesting..along the lines of what is 'normal'...but I won't go on.

My mother has schizophrenia Hush. I know all about the shortcomings and positive aspects of the mental health system. (In NZ at least). I know my Mom - a highly intelligent woman, who if not always 'schizophrenic' due to drugs is certainly permanently eccentric - has no voice of her own, within a society that is stratified into 'abnormal' and 'normal'. I think the drugs have helped control her symptoms certainly...they've also robbed my Mom of much of her personality, and zest, and love of life. Doubled-edged sword...

Now, as far as pregnancy is concerned...the depression is caused solely by hormones..and ostrogen fluctuations - well, if a completely scientific stance is taken. Because, after all, science is the only explanation isn't it?

Of course that system is going to be exploited. People will always exploit systems - isn't it a 'natural' thing to do?

K

I am a refugee of logic...insisting
on unlikely land with every step.

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