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Passions in Poetry

Amazing deja vu at least for me - Americans fleeing to Canada

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Mysteria
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0 posted 12-07-2004 04:15 PM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

This could be in the wrong forum, please feel free to move this wherever it goes.  I just wanted to share an article that is becoming all too common each day in our papers up here in Canada.

My Mom, and a lot of her friends during the Vietnam War took in draft dodgers and runaway military personnel gladly.  Word spread they had opened their homes and hearts, and military and civilians came and went in large numbers to share our home during that period. I am not saying that is was right or wrong, it was her decision.  There were over 2.5 million killed from both sides during that period, and she saved some was her logic.  However, as a young person the stories shared sure affected my perception of the right and wrong reasons for going to war forever.  Seems it might be starting up on a small scale once more, and this is not the first US citizen to do this, there are many.
http://www.mytelus.com/news/article.do?pageID=news_home&articleID=1785852

Our two leaders recently met here in Canada to discuss our participation in Iraq among other issues.  I believe that it sort of upset the Eastern residents that it took President Bush so long after 911 for their efforts to be acknowledged I noticed on the news.  They had been clearing air space for airborne US passengers to land in Canada.  These people were taken in, fed, and cared for until it safe to leave.

Seems we are at least caring neighbours   and Lord, I hope we continue to be.

[This message has been edited by Mysteria (12-07-2004 11:00 PM).]

Larry C
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1 posted 12-07-2004 08:07 PM       View Profile for Larry C   Email Larry C   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Larry C's Home Page   View IP for Larry C

Well now dear friend, I do hope you keep us updated on the outcome of this young mans request. I was a registered CO and would have gone to Vietnam had I not been give a deferment. It seems odd when his convictions are so strong that he was denied CO status. I'm not surprised of the source of your tender heart!

If tears could build a stairway and memories a lane, I'd walk right up to heaven and bring you home again.

Huan Yi
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2 posted 12-07-2004 09:17 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

This evening I listened to an interview
with Ghazi Al-Yawar, the interim president
of Iraq, during which he said Saddam Hussein
and Hitler were of a kind, (which  few disagree
with), and likened the “insurgents”, made up
of mostly Bathists, (with minor support from the
outside and Muslim fundamentalists, convenient
for appearances), whose only objective is to return
to pre-war conditions when they were in power,
to the Mafia.

Any person who is seeking to flee to Canada
may do as he wishes, but he is not in circumstances
as allows him to take any moral high ground in the process.
  
Mysteria
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3 posted 12-08-2004 12:13 AM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

This may do better to inform you of the status of this man.
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&edition=us&ie=ascii&q=%22jeremy%2Bhinzman%22&btnG=Search%2BNews
Huan Yi
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4 posted 12-08-2004 12:25 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


“He has said he saw Iraqi civilians being killed by US troops.”

So why run away?  Why not go to the Times or Post
and win somebody a Pulitzer?  It would be easier then
to shoot the President than touch him.
NewEnglandlazurlu
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5 posted 12-08-2004 12:02 PM       View Profile for NewEnglandlazurlu   Email NewEnglandlazurlu   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for NewEnglandlazurlu

Sharon, if the draft is reinstated in this country, I will be the first person at your door with my youngest son. Right or wrong, there is no way he's going to war so some can get rich off oil!

hugs, Marti

A single sunbeam is enough to drive away many shadows.
–St. Francis of Assisi

Mysteria
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6 posted 12-08-2004 12:48 PM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

Marti, told many Moms in here already that my door is always open to anyone at anytime needing help. You know, this is why I don't drive, and I know no one will even understand what I just said, but I do     Unlike some, I don't discuss my political views, but I sure as heck act them out on occasion, just ask some of the biggest trees they all know my name. I think you had to have burned a bra, marched for a cause or done "something" other than whine to really realize you can make a small difference by adding your voice to others.
Mistletoe Angel
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7 posted 12-12-2004 08:43 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

As you all are aware, I am pretty much stuck in the middle of the group that should a draft be re-instated, will be eligible in the selective service (or should I say slavery) process.

I'm not serving under any oppressive administration, nor do I want to or will spill any blood of others...period.

It is MY body, it is MY choice, and I choose not to serve my country that way, but rather serve it without arms; serving America by continuing to fight without arms for progressive interests, civil liberties, equality, economical wisdom, ecological wisdom, sustainability, diversity, and non-violence. America is all about celebrating life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness and this is how I want to live, this is how I pursue happiness, and everyone should respect that too.

I choose to serve my country like millions who never served themselves do; work as teachers, firefighters, union workers, doctors, etc.

I simply don't want to kill anyone or even touch an AK-47 or any gun in that manner. If I was selected, I would be more than willing to be thrown in jail, because underneath my layers of pale grey, grime and defeat on my face, I know deep down under my skin I remain true to myself, I remain all that I've stood up for, and my conscience is clear, and I can at least sleep rest assured I wasn't one who made all the terrible stories of war in history repeat themselves. Otherwise I just don't think I could ever live with myself anymore.

In Deuteronomy 20:8, it is written, "And the officers shall speak further unto the people, and they shall say, What man is there that is fearful and fainthearted? let him go and return unto his house, lest his brethren's heart faint as well as his heart."

The Good Book clearly speaks of all physically and emotionally fit men 20 years and older eligible to be drafted and participate in the military in the sense of nationalism, but also hints at the belief in the right to conscientious objector status. They also believe you shouldn't be drafted if you just moved into a new home, just started a new business, if you were engaged to be married, or if it hasn't been a year since you've been married.

Maybe there is a bit of cowardice in me too, but I believe I have a good reason. Because I wouldn't be turning my back on this country if I refused to fight, I'd be turning my back on an administration in my personal gut I find corrupt and don't want to do their dirty laundry. I don't care who believes this election win was a "mandate". 56 million still voted otherwise, more than any other Democratic nominee in history, and 51% of the vote is NOT a mandate.

And there, continuing to stay true to myself, in protesting the war AND in protesting to serve, is where the ethics and morals in the decision are.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

Ericc
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8 posted 12-16-2004 07:13 PM       View Profile for Ericc   Email Ericc   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ericc

Very well said Noah.

Love,
Eric
Huan Yi
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9 posted 12-16-2004 07:33 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Noah,

Maybe you just don't want to
get shot.

“Maybe there is a bit of cowardice in me too, but I believe I have a good reason. Because I wouldn't be turning my back on this country if I refused to fight, I'd be turning my back on an administration in my personal gut I find corrupt”


By you standards, I don’t recall any administration you would be
willing to go under.

LoveBug
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10 posted 12-19-2004 08:58 AM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

Here's one American that wants to flee to Canada, but for love, not war

But my [Canadian] boyfriend and I were talking about and he said "Yeah, it sucks that Bush was re-elected, but if they loved their country enough to want the best for it, they wouldn't just give up on it and come here."

And I absolutely agree

Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee

Huan Yi
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11 posted 12-23-2004 02:27 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4119839.stm


Not quite the same thing
is it?

Mistletoe Angel
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12 posted 12-23-2004 02:28 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

Who wants to be shot, honestly? Surely you wouldn't, your loved ones wouldn't. I don't want to be s hot, but moreover, I am not going to participate in this senseless war, and nothing anyone does will make me.

All the same, I wouldn't be serving this country, I'd be serving the desires of some warmongering politicians who they, themselves, dodged the draft during the Vietnam era (Cheney, Ashcroft, Wolfowitz) and have a whole different idea of what "peace" is which I do not buy.

You're right. I wouldn't serve under any administration because I do not believe in war. I would be happy, however, to serve in the PeaceCorps.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

Huan Yi
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13 posted 12-23-2004 02:47 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

Noah,

“Who wants to be shot, honestly? Surely you wouldn't, your loved ones wouldn't. I don't want to be s hot,”

You’re right, nobody wants to get shot, and yet I know for a fact
that there are those who enlisted fully expecting to, because they
believed in something that to them was worth more than
their own lives, like the world they did and/or wanted others
to live in.


“You're right. I wouldn't serve under any administration because I do not believe in war.”

Unfortunately there are those who do;
who have no problem with any kind
of violence including genocide as well.
Your pacifism would have done nothing
obstructive to Hitler and his intent to
subjugate if not murder tens of millions
including my parents.
Mistletoe Angel
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14 posted 12-23-2004 07:14 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

First of all, let me offer my deepest condolences to the loss of your loved ones during World War II. I understand how difficult it is to lose loved ones like that. I come across many faces time and time again at community centers, on the streets, etc. who either lost loved ones or friends in battle. (sends heart hugs your way)



The fact is, now, the main problem with the Democrats and liberals in general is basically the same dilemma with the Republicans. Many argue liberals against the war have found no viable alternative to fighting a war and that is the problem. I personally believe it is also precisely the problem with the Republicans in that their impatience leads them to believing war is always the only option to solving a conflict.

I am a pacifist, and I continue to bellow from the deepest depths of my lungs that war just doesn't solve anything in my belief. Brutal men will be overthrown, regimes will collapse, all is said and done, but the tension always remains. That is what I believe, and indeed some just can't accept my opinion, but that's that.

I am a pacifist, and it wasn't my lack of commitment that slaughtered six million Jews in World War II, nor the lives of three-quarters of a million to a million innocent Iraqi civilians under Hussein, nor the thousands who suffered in East Timor, and, certainly, the tens of thousands suffering right now under Bush's war.

I, myself, believe in something worth infinitely greater than my own life. I believe in the unconditional gift of peace to all of mankind. I believe in the end of pestilence, war, greed and famine through non-violent, humanitarian acts of kindness and philanthropy.

I believe in this one thing that is worth far more than my life and non-selfishly that is why I dedicate myself to the social peace movement, and if I have the opportunity after college I'd love to serve in the PeaceCorps or something.

Again, I sympathize with the loss of your parents in World War II very much, and I show my love and compassion for those like yourself in seeing to it those like yourself in Iraq, children with parents of their own, won't have to see their parents perish in the mortar blasts and bombs, or vice versa. I prefer to vent my feelings and emotions not for revenge, but for community-building.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

LoveBug
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15 posted 12-23-2004 07:58 PM       View Profile for LoveBug   Email LoveBug   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for LoveBug

I won't get into if this specific war is justified, but war in general will always be around, as long as there are evil people in the world. Wars go back to Biblical times (The whole book of Joshua is basically a battle narrative), and I think that being 100% pacifist is sort of an unattainable dream. Of course, peaceful resolutions are always better, but not always possible. We live in a flawed world, so I don't think any of us will see a time without war, no matter how hard we try.

Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee

Mistletoe Angel
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16 posted 12-24-2004 04:25 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

That's just what I fear too, Erica. I fear we are NOT safer now because of the war and that we are NOT winning the war on terror, for I believe war terrorizes communities, and when one is terrorized, one is overwhelmed by these terrorizing feelings which so often lead to hatred and, they themselves, become terrorists.

I read this interesting column in Mother Jones about patriotism vs. the social peace movement. They said about 20% will support any American-led war because of patriotic pride. They said another 16% just believe in supporting our troops and going along with what they do because they are "government employees". And then there's a final 15% that believe it is important to stand behind the president in the sake of avoiding anarchy, etc.

I believe because of Iraq, there will inevitably be more wars spawned from this conflict, perhaps a civil war in Iraq between the north and the Basra region. I wish this not to happen, of course, but believe war only builds tension and this could likely be the consequential result.

Now, I want to add one more thing for Huan Yi.

I just find it ironic how you seem to insinuate my stance against serving through the military, etc. as an act of treason to the nation, etc. yet you honor those (Bush, Cheney, Ashcroft, Wolfowitz) who they themselves dodged the draft and refused to serve in Vietnam or Korea.

Elizabeth Asquith Bibesco said, "Irony is the hygiene of the mind". Irony has a reciprocal value of its own, and you may ask me, "Well, if you are adamant of resisting a possible draft return, why do you dishonor Bush and others who did likewise before?"

My answer is simple. I have a problem with the ethics they're running now, not before. I almost look now and it is a difficult pill to swallow imagining in 2044 I'm ushering the next big war. People change, and I believe I have the willpower to hold to my principles, but I have no problem at all in that they dodged the draft then. Look, America is all about life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness after all. Ashcroft and Wolfowitz just wanted to finish school, I respect that.

So I ask, if you honor those now who used to have the same sentiments I do now about refusing to serve, surely you should be honoring me as well.

Sincerely,
Noah Eaton

"You'll find something that's enough to keep you
But if the bright lights don't receive you
You should turn yourself around and come back home" MB20

catalinamoon
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17 posted 01-05-2005 12:49 PM       View Profile for catalinamoon   Email catalinamoon   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit catalinamoon's Home Page   View IP for catalinamoon

To Sharon, I thank you for your kind thoughts and to Noah..Keep up the good fight..
Luv
Sandra
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