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Passions in Poetry

Loathsome Sons of Bitches

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RobertB
Senior Member
since 09-26-1999
Posts 1121
Champaign, IL


0 posted 11-10-1999 06:03 PM       View Profile for RobertB   Email RobertB   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for RobertB

I am letting go of flame wars

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if you can dream; you can fly...if you are flying; you are dreaming.

[This message has been edited by RobertB (edited 11-20-1999).]
Brad
Member Ascendant
since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


1 posted 11-10-1999 07:27 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

I can't let this one go (although I wonder if you might post another, similar thread in the Philosophy 101 forum. We might get a good debate going ). I completely agree that 'love', 'heart', and 'soul' are words that are just too overused in poetry. Furthermore, I think you're missing the point that we 'head' poets are trying to get across. It's not that were not trying to write from the heart (I prefer to combine the words when it comes to poetry because I don't see a distinction: mind/heart -- kokoro in Japanese).

Now, maybe these people lacked tact although personally I think they saw you making a joke and just wanted to play along but the point is still valid. The more the same words are used in poetry, the less impact they have on a reader. Furthermore, words like 'soul' and 'love' are so general that what you end up with is not a personal lyric but a philosophical tract. It's really not a matter of simply changing a few words, of painting by the numbers; it's about sweating. We're trying to get each word to work in conjunction with each other to move the reader.

Maybe the distinction should be poets who sweat and poets who believe they are possessed by natural, no effort needed, genius.

That last statement is intended light heartedly but is also intended as a reversal of this heart mind thing that I see far too much of.

Thanks,
Brad

RobertB
Senior Member
since 09-26-1999
Posts 1121
Champaign, IL


2 posted 11-10-1999 07:59 PM       View Profile for RobertB   Email RobertB   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for RobertB

Thanks to you Brad,

The kind of comments you make are well taken. I guess you need to read the very unkind replies that these guys make in deja.com. They are the rudest. There really is no pleasing them.

You make a good point to combine the two styles and sweat it out (a poem). I spend no more than 10 minutes on poems. Unless they are in Nan's workshop!!! Which is why I joined. Heart poetry is so easy to me.

I feel better ending the flame war I have had with them for over a month now.


Robert



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if you can dream; you can fly...if you are flying; you are dreaming.
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


3 posted 11-10-1999 08:56 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

I wondered how long it would take you to find this thread, Brad. Are you suggesting that "soul" is actually worse than "rose?"

Personally, I think you are vastly over-simplifying something that is far more complex. If "love" and "soul" are over-used words we should always avoid, then surely words like "I" and "you" are far more dangerous. Words are important, I'll grant you. In most cases, in the vast majority of cases, we want to use a concrete word, one that has the specific meaning we intend. And if that word doesn't exist then we weave together those that do, creating new meaning. Well, at least we try...

But sometimes that is not our intent. I wasn't making a joke when I compared "soul" to the personal pronoun "I." Because sometimes when I write I mean "I" and sometimes I don't. When I want you to see "Ron" in the context of "I" I will try to interject my own personality into a work - something to make the "I" more concrete. But sometimes I want you to substitute your own sense of being for the "I." I want you to become the character I'm writing about, to imagine yourself in that position, feeling those emotions. When that is my intent, I certainly don't want to make "I" too concrete and risk destroying the illusion.

I can't tell you what a "soul" is, but I can tell you what it means to me. It might take me a few thousand poems, but I think I could even do it fairly precisely. Sometimes, though, that's not my intent. Sometimes I want to purposefully use a less concrete word and, in doing so, I'm asking you to substitute your own meaning into the word. Now, I would certainly never do that if I was talking about a "soul," any more than I would use a vague "I" if my subject was Ron. My subject has to be concrete. But "soul" may be only a qualifier within the context of my work. In which case, your definition is as valid (and often more useful) than mine.

Sometimes a well-worn set of boots will get you where you want to go - as long as you don't try to hike too far in them. Should you throw away the boots just because they've been used? Or should you keep them handy, recognize their limitations (and strengths) - and maybe invest in a new pair, just in case?
suthern
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Seraphic
since 07-29-99
Posts 20770
on the threshold of a dream


4 posted 11-10-1999 09:40 PM       View Profile for suthern   Email suthern   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for suthern

'Scuse me while I sit here grinning over 'I can tell you what it means to me. It might take me a few thousand poems, but I think I could even do it fairly precisely.' Okay, Ron... we're waiting! *G* We'll even allow you a few extra... in the name of precision, of course! LOL
X Angel
Senior Member
since 11-07-1999
Posts 1592
Oregon


5 posted 11-10-1999 09:45 PM       View Profile for X Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for X Angel

Geez won't your fingers get all tired and cranky if you write that many poems Ron? *eagerly awaiting some poetic masterpieces from the Head of the 'Head' Poets*
~wink~
you know I love ya!
*hugs*
The~X

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"We have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night" (Tombstone epitaph of two amateur astronomers)
RobertB
Senior Member
since 09-26-1999
Posts 1121
Champaign, IL


6 posted 11-10-1999 09:46 PM       View Profile for RobertB   Email RobertB   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for RobertB

LOL...I love that!!! Head of the Head poets!!!

LOL

can I be the King of Heart(s) Poet??
Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 05-19-99
Posts 9708
Michigan, US


7 posted 11-10-1999 09:52 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Well shucks, suthern, we are talking about a fair to middlin complex thingy here now, aren't we?

Head of the Head Poets, X? Do you have any idea what Toe is going to do with that, ma dear? I'm blushing already...

Robert, you were replying the same time I was, I think, and I almost missed yours. I commend you on your attitude - flame wars aren't even worth your time. And in working with Nan you will learn to sweat a little bit over those masterpieces!
Menage Numero Trois
Junior Member
since 07-20-99
Posts 33
Zee South of France


8 posted 11-10-1999 09:59 PM       View Profile for Menage Numero Trois   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Menage Numero Trois

Vaattt ees thees a blush weethout Numero Three here? *sigh* I theenk I have lost my touch! (blowing hugs and kisses at that sexy Toerag...hi baby!)


J'aime rouler mes victimes, oops que je veux dire des amoureux dans le fondant chaud et alors coupés des écrous

~~~~~~~~~~~~~Numero Three, of the Tantalizing Trio~~~~~~~~~~~

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vous pouvez penser que vous me connaissez mais vous faites? Je ne suis pas qui vous vous attendez à ce que je soit
RobertB
Senior Member
since 09-26-1999
Posts 1121
Champaign, IL


9 posted 11-10-1999 10:03 PM       View Profile for RobertB   Email RobertB   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for RobertB

Hi Kinky3....welcome!!!

------------------
if you can dream; you can fly...if you are flying; you are dreaming.
Menage Numero Trois
Junior Member
since 07-20-99
Posts 33
Zee South of France


10 posted 11-10-1999 10:07 PM       View Profile for Menage Numero Trois   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Menage Numero Trois

Robert
Wee three have been here for as long as thees site has been, we're just quiet.

*kisses*

-Trey

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vous pouvez penser que vous me connaissez mais vous faites? Je ne suis pas qui vous vous attendez à ce que je soit
hoot_owl_rn
Member Patricius
since 07-05-99
Posts 11105
Glen Hope, PA USA


11 posted 11-10-1999 10:18 PM       View Profile for hoot_owl_rn   Email hoot_owl_rn   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit hoot_owl_rn's Home Page   View IP for hoot_owl_rn

Robert....I like that 17 year old in you, keep posting my friend
Menage #1
Junior Member
since 07-20-99
Posts 35


12 posted 11-10-1999 10:28 PM       View Profile for Menage #1   Edit/Delete Message     View IP for Menage #1

Head of zee 'Head' poets, eh??? I've been looking for heem too... I theenk he might be caput... of the caput poets... ... Numero Trois - Deedn't you haff heem shackled????
Menage Numero Trois
Junior Member
since 07-20-99
Posts 33
Zee South of France


13 posted 11-11-1999 12:21 AM       View Profile for Menage Numero Trois   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Menage Numero Trois

I deed have heem shackled, but hee got avay!
:*( Vee Veel have to set a trap Numero Une! I veel lure him in with my sweet little poems, and you can *GRAB* him! Zen vee veel shackle heem head to toe (NO that's not YOU Toerag! )
Veel talk later My Numero Une friend
-3
RobertB
Senior Member
since 09-26-1999
Posts 1121
Champaign, IL


14 posted 11-12-1999 07:44 PM       View Profile for RobertB   Email RobertB   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for RobertB

hehehehehe oh Menage(s)you kill me!!!

------------------
if you can dream; you can fly...if you are flying; you are dreaming.
Systematic Decay
Senior Member
since 09-15-99
Posts 1312
That place with padded walls a


15 posted 11-13-1999 08:52 PM       View Profile for Systematic Decay   Email Systematic Decay   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Systematic Decay

Robert- **sigh** it is all too sad when people act like that......I personally love your poetry, and these guys, while I think they have a point on some words being overused, were really out of line.

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Thinking is just what a great many people think they are doing when they are merely rearranging their predjudices.


RobertB
Senior Member
since 09-26-1999
Posts 1121
Champaign, IL


16 posted 11-13-1999 08:59 PM       View Profile for RobertB   Email RobertB   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for RobertB

Thanks systematic....what I posted is tame to some of what they said. One time jr posted that he wondered how many retarded women I hooked with my poetry. ggam77 called me a moron more than once...that isn't critiquing anything ..that is slander in my book.

Thanks again....

I post in those groups still but block those guys out...I will post there till I can't type any more!
Toerag
Member Ascendant
since 07-29-99
Posts 5839
Ala bam a


17 posted 11-15-1999 09:14 AM       View Profile for Toerag   Email Toerag   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Toerag

Ron.....I guess if ya wore out the boots, ya could just have them "Re-souled" yanno?....Head of the Head Poets?....LOL...I'll behave, honest Ron,....for a few minutes anyhow....LOL

Yanno? I could go over to that website and turn a few heads maybe?....I ain't got no soul?....Speaking of Loathsome S.O.B.'s, anyone seen LongJohn lately?



[This message has been edited by Toerag (edited 11-15-1999).]
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