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And Children Die
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And Children Die |
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Bohemianaus Member
since 2003-01-05
Posts 69Australia (South Gippsland) |
While children die! Sirens sound in my living room Bombs explode in my TV Voices spin their web of deceit And children die! Planners speak in half truths Experts speculate in ignorance We have all been lead into hell And children die! What have you done? What have you done? No better than Hadfield Feuding with McCoy Bush at war with Hussein And children die! What price is to be paid, Oh a price will be paid, When old friends are snubbed And children die? What have you done? What have you done? The arrogance of Ignorance The suckering of Nobility Then Sycophant makes three And children die! Who will live and what will die In the squabble for spoils A carrion feed While children die? What have you done As children die? What can we do As children die? Where will it end; ..... Must children die? Christopher R Creek (2003) God bless and keep you, Namaste! Boh [This message has been edited by Bohemianaus (04-02-2003 03:38 PM).] |
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| © Copyright 2003 Christopher R Creek - All Rights Reserved | |||
Joyce Johnson
since 2001-03-10
Posts 9912Washington State |
Yes they will but not purposefuly as they have been dying under the dreadful regime they have been living. and when our brave soldiers are sucessful there will be many many saved who would have died from starvation while their brutal dictator was living in splendor.I cannot vote for this one. Joyce [This message has been edited by Joyce Johnson (04-01-2003 07:45 PM).] |
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Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-05
Posts 25505Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA |
Don't leave out the 400,000 children under four who died of starvation last year alone in Iraq.....or don't they count? |
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Chanson Senior Member
since 2000-08-19
Posts 1559Up Creek w/Out Paddle |
I have sincere sympathy for every innocent man, woman, and child being killed in the war. I doubt there are many people, if any, who enjoy their deaths! To ALLOW Hussein and his henchmen to continue to maniacally, without remorse, snuff the lives out of thousands upon thousands of their citizens including children, starving them, torturing them, making them suffer everyday, every week, every year, by sticking our heads in the sand, is incomprehensible to me. While I appreciate your poem for allowing me to express my thoughts, I can not, in good conscience, include my vote. |
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Bohemianaus Member
since 2003-01-05
Posts 69Australia (South Gippsland) |
While I appreciate opposing views the simplistic responses so far indicate that the principle idea of the poem is lost. Its also unfortunate that votes will depend on politics and not on the democracy of art. So Reflections will reflect a censored world. C'est la vie, n'est pas? God bless and keep you, Namaste! |
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Magicmystery Senior Member
since 2002-02-13
Posts 821Windsor, Ontario, Canada |
I cannot say I liked your poem as much as I was moved by it. And no matter how you slice it, Children will die as long as the men in power (for the most part) cannot see past their own egos and agendas. Bush is doing what he thinks is best for the world (as though being the president of one of the greatest nations on earth gives him that responsibility) I cannot condone war, but I know maniacs must be neutralized if we are to gain some semblance of peace. I just wish he had waited for the UN (to get a spine that is) Come see mine. It bears a strong resemblance to yours. Love, Light and PEACE Sherry And yes, I hate the thought of good people being snubbed and because a differing political view has kept their military out of the path of distruction. I am Canadian, and I support my Prime Ministers decision to not actively particpate in this conflict. Tell me what Canada could have offered anyway? An aging out of date military machine, a handful of soldiers in comparison the preparedness of the US forces. We do not allocate the same percentile of our tax dollars toward military spending and have one tenth the population ( seems keeping the poor and underpriviledged of our nation healthy and fed ....takes precidence over dethroning a dictator) Cherish the good memories of the past and look forward to the adventure called Tomorrow. But above all... be kind to yourself today. [This message has been edited by Magicmystery (04-02-2003 01:48 AM).] |
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Ron
Administrator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-05-19
Posts 8669Michigan, US |
Christopher, I don't think there was anything simplistic in the responses offered. Just contrary and, admittedly, not very helpful. A simple reading of your poem suggests you have a problem with any war that results in the death of children. One would assume, then, that if you could be given reasonable assurances for the safety of the children, you would have no problems at all with slaughtering adults. No? That's not what you meant to say? I guess not, because a more studied reading of your poem suggests you have a great many issues with the war, only one of which is the death of children. But you see, that's likely to be a serious problem for a lot of people, no matter how they feel about the war. It almost feels as if you are using these children to further your own agenda, like their horrible death has been relegated to nothing more than a literary device. Let's tug at a few heartstrings and see what happens. I think any reader, regardless of their stance on the war, is going to resent someone blatantly using the death of innocents as a tool to manipulate emotion. The death of children, I think, should mean more than that. A lot more. Your poem, in short, seems to lack focus. It's not about dying children. It's about your own personal views of the war. There's nothing inherently wrong with the latter. Except, perhaps, when you pretend to the former. Just my opinion, of course, but I think what you've accomplished here is very much at odds with your apparent intention. |
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Bohemianaus Member
since 2003-01-05
Posts 69Australia (South Gippsland) |
What you say is interesting, Ron, and you are half way there. The death of children is by no means a literary device; it is of course a reality as are all the issues raised. War is a fact of human experience that will always be with us and the reasons for it vary from the trivial, the crass and the just. If you are of the anglo alliance you may maintain it to be just - the rest of the world might just challenge that. The fact that a number of evil dictatorships support this war brings its own compromise to the principles espoused. But what this poem attempts to do in the end is to suggest that this war is in the main like so many before and that it can't bring justice - to suggest otherwise is spin. Elie Weisel (author of Night) in his acceptance of the Nobel Peace Prize said that peace is not the gift of God, rather it is the gift of people to each other. The tectonic shifts that will occur after this are already suggesting that the mythology of a new world order is just that; as it was after the last gulf war. The question at the heart of this poem is not about whether it is just or not; rather, the question is when the turmoil and destruction is over - how will the peace be gifted back to the region and who will gift it to who. "Where is the hope?" The naievete of Bush and the Neocons are too doctrinaire to have even conceived that at this time. Maybe that will come as the reality of what they have embarked on finally hits home. The emotion that this poem evoked was expected but I had hoped people would be able to set back and ask the hard questions; thanks Ron for at least having a go at it. Perhaps my failure as the author is that context and metaphor have not been extricable enough. I have also enjoyed the discussion that has been provoked - that's what I set out to do. On a personal note, while I can conceive the notion of a just war - in the end very few are that and most compound futility upon futility. My fear is that this is heading in that same direction. Wasn't it Mark Twain who said something like if we don't learn from history we are condemned to repeat it. Maybe I have attributed the remarks wrongly but they are nonetheless true, whoever said them. I must admit that I grew up during the Cold War and Vietnam - the world suddenly feels very familiar. God bless and keep you, Namaste! |
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Chanson Senior Member
since 2000-08-19
Posts 1559Up Creek w/Out Paddle |
Bohemianaus, because my response was only a few lines instead of many, I don't agree that what I offered was simplistic, and certainly no more (and no less) simplistic than the underlying tone of your poem. In your response to Ron, you wrote, "The death of children is by no means a literary device" But that is exactly how I see their deaths in your piece and what is just as dominant is the repetitive nature of your piece, what I describe as an uncontrolled rant and one in which doesn't really want answers and is simply caught up in the Why Why Why! of the moment. Using 'children' nine times and a poem consisting mainly of brief and terse questions does not always make for good reading. Yes, it is thought provoking, I can't deny that, but this reader would have liked more 'meat'. (For example, if your intent was to fire the questions in rapid succession like bullets of a machine gun being discharged, then say so and you would have yourself a metaphorical piece that could have been expanded upon.) I don't have a problem with poetry that asks a question but when the bulk of the poem is a series of inquiries it reads like a game of 20 Questions. To be frank, the principle idea of your poem IS lost to this reader and I am finding that the responses it has evoked are more interesting (as democratic art) than the poem itself, in my opinion. With my first read you got my gut reaction. You tugged on my heartstrings because, afterall, who in their right mind doesn't feel compassion for the children, right? *s So I am glad I have taken this opportunity to return to your poem to give my less reactionary critique to the form itself. Chanson [This message has been edited by Chanson (04-02-2003 09:13 AM).] |
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WhiteRose Member Elite
since 2002-07-23
Posts 3208somebody's dungeon |
The Ignorance and Arrogance of Bush The suckering of Nobility And Sycophant makes it three I understand anyone's need to voice their opinion about this war. I respect anyone's right to express their views on the legality, the morality, and even perhaps, the hidden motive (if in fact there is one)of this war. I do not however think it is proper to call the leader of a country that is represented on this board, to a certain extent, ignorant and arrogant. Especially since you offered a one sided argument, and do not one time mention the terrible atrocities of the dictator that we are attempting to overthrow, in order to bring an end to his reign of terror upon his own people. More children have been killed by Saddam Hussein than by any other person, or people. One sided politics has no place on a poetry board, and therefore, I too, can not in all good conscience, vote for this piece. |
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Local Parasite
since 2001-11-05
Posts 2527Transylconia, Winnipeg |
I like your critique message. I'm going to step away from the political aspect (as it clearly concerns me much less than many of the people replying) and try to see your poem a bit more objectively. quote: This isn't a bad opening, considering how hard it is to write a decent opening... I think saying "the sirens" instead of just "sirens" is a bit unwise because you don't ever say "the "Spin their web of deceit" is a little bit cliche. You might consider reworking that, perhaps? Just a suggestion. Also, the line "And children die!" sounds really too dramatic throughout the piece, I felt... maybe if you get rid of the exclamation point it will seem less like a buzz-line that's meant to use death of children as a "literary device," as someone pointed out. quote: I like this stanza better, it's a bit more solid. "Lead" should be spelled "led," I'm pretty sure. Also, I want to talk for a second about your transition into the final line. The repetition isn't something I have anything against, but perhaps you should consider blending it a bit with the content of your stanzas, just so it flows together more nicely. Here, for example, you could say "we have all been led into hell; where children die." Or some such thing. quote: This doesn't stand apart enough, IMO... you might use some nifty italics or something to set it apart from the poem as an aside thought... you say "we" in the poem, in reference to you and the audience, but then you address the audience as an object of blame. You should find a way of separating these lines from the rest of the poem. quote: There's nothing too terribly wrong with this. You could dodge a lot of controversy by describing Bush in a non-personal manner... that might also help to make this a poem more about war in general, than about this particular war. quote: I like that stanza. I've seen it spelled "carrion," I'm not sure if that's right or not. And at the end it should be a question mark perhaps? quote: That sounds a bit awkward to me... quote: Closing lines are important, and I think they're too important to be predictable. I'd at least add something to the end that is more conclusive... here you depend on your repeated line to wrap up the entire poem, when you've been using it up to this point as a way of closing stanzas... it kind of left me hanging when I read that. You have a good concept here, something very worthy of poetic attention. As I said, I'm not going into the subject matter of the war... my only certain stance in this subject is that I haven't met one person who has an opinion which they hold and defend without a trace of dogmatic servitude. Don't let all the contrary opinion get you down, Christopher. From what I've read, most people in piptalk like where they sit in this debate... and they've all got their arms crossed with their heads shaking. I'll have an eye out for your work. Parasite "Faith" means the will to avoid knowing what is true. |
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Bohemianaus Member
since 2003-01-05
Posts 69Australia (South Gippsland) |
Thankyou local parasite - you restore my faith in the site - i have looked at your suggestions and as you will see I have taken some on board. My dictionary tells me "lead" is the older spelling and "led" the more modern, I am happy with either. I belong to a local poetry group and do workshop my poems (I am my own worst proofreader)and critique is something I value. We do get pretty brutal with each other's work (we expect that) so when it comes to critique I am pretty resilient - because I have respect fort he art. Thankyou again local parasite. God bless and keep you, Namaste! |
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Sven
since 1999-11-23
Posts 14937East Lansing, MI USA |
I see that you have indeed taken some of the suggestions that Local Parasite made. . . good. . . this could be a powerful poem. . . and what he said at the end of his critique is also true. . . so, don't be afraid to stand up for what you believe in. . . this poem gets my vote. . . ------------------------------------------------------ To the world, you may only be one person. But to one person, you may be the world. |
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Mistletoe Angel
since 2000-12-17
Posts 32816Portland, Oregon |
 (tears fall down my cheeks) I too support you, dearest Christopher! Any war is going to bring harm to all the children, and those who only make their lives more complicated should be held in contempt and pitied! Both Saddam Hussein and Bush should be ashamed of their actions, Saddam harming his own people and Bush believing he has the right to go and cause harm to so many when most don't want him to! (wipes tears) I agree so very much with Local Parasite's feedback, follow his advice as I would have thought on similar terms! (sad sigh) Destroying and warping the meaning of real freedom and justice and foundation is a kind of different terrorism altogether and I pray this insane war can end soon, God Bless You, you have my vote, we all love you so much! You have such a beautiful heart, sweet Christopher, thank you for sharing! May love and light always shine upon you! Love, Noah Eaton "Underneath your clothes there's an endless story..." |
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Bohemianaus Member
since 2003-01-05
Posts 69Australia (South Gippsland) |
Thanks for the encouragement guys God bless and keep you, Namaste! |
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