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Critical Analysis #1
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No clue what to call this yet - trying something new
| Critical Analysis #1 |
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No clue what to call this yet - trying something new |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration 
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hey y'all - decided to give a little go at a bit o' something new - I may have failed miserably - in which case, feel free to tell me and I'll go shoot myself in the foot... no, that'd hurt too much, maybe I'll pinch my arm or something - anyway... this is it, all help and comments will be appreciated muchly Chris Untitled musty memories spark flames of reticence and ill-conceived retreating sighs, beating paths of “wishing-was” across trampled streets of hope sure I chanced upon her words the crust of a premise drowned in irony a chance I suppose - nothing more but then what to forget when your rage is nothing more than TV scripted, operatic bundles of a mute follow-the-leader can you clone your individuality - when “be yourself” is what’s in vogue? and then ask me to drop the chalice of possibility for a rendering of.. what? is it a cairn of sanctuary, the toll of resurrection? will the dead bring the future to life while they themselves chatter incessantly about regret, mourning myopic tears shed centuries ago for nothing save the effect how can you play the puppet-master when I hold your strings? you grate humor with an egg-my-car grin twisted around like a candy-cane spun tweaker so sure, shatter me with crisp slips of denial, lead me with a halter-topped visage of inanity ...no, that’s a dream... or a memory - same thing you can challenge me or seduce me but can you do both? [This message has been edited by Christopher (edited 10-23-2000).] |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Ya have a good poetic work goin' here. I don't know what the difference is in this and others works, since I've just arrived in these parts. New to the territory. The only thing I didn't like was "egg-my-car grin" and then, "candy-cane spun tweaker". They seem out of place in a poem rich with hooty-tooty language; they just seem tooty. Easily enough rectified, though. mia |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
Hi Mia - Thanks for the time and comments. I'm not sure I understand though, what you mean here by "hooty-tooty." Could you explain? I think that the phrases you listed are right in line with several from the poem, so I want to see what you're seeing! Chris oh - and BTW - as an afterthought: when I say something new here, I mean by me... as in not in my normal "style" if I can be said to have a set style...lol  [This message has been edited by Christopher (edited 10-23-2000).] |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Christopher, Hooty-tooty is a phrase my sister and I coined to use in place of "high-fulootin', hoity-toity, or cultured, I suppose. Anyway, it can be used as a negative or a positive connotation. Here it is positive, meaning that I thought your words were very well-chosen except for the phrases I listed above. They didn't seem to fit in well with the rest of the language, IMHO only. mia |
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Lady Lost Member
since 2000-07-13
Posts 470 |
I would like to make an attempt of critiquing this piece, but I am too caught up in the fact that your words are perfect for the emotion that you feel. And for some strange reason I do understand "egg my car grin" .....oh well, I obviously failed Critical Analysis 101..I'll go back to philosophy class now and hang out with the other sheep. baa. ........beth p.s. hooty tooty is my new word now...you don't have copyrites to it do you mia? lol...either way thanks for explaining I was a little confused myself < !signature--> "And I still believe you can never have too much fiction because reality is such a bore..." - REA [This message has been edited by Lady Lost (edited 10-23-2000).] |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
mia - thank you for clearing that up - NOW I understand! LOL But - I kind of have to disagree in a way - yes, it is a different language, but in that, it's making a point.. it's kind of showing the childish manner in which "she" is these things - childishly thinking something like egging someone's car is a funny thing to do and "tweaking" (which is slang for a habitual methamphetamine user) is inconsequential and approached with the same childish abandon as egging someone's car. So hmm... I kinda have to disagree - but I DO appreciate the input! Beth - yes, you know exactly what I mean!  Thanks for the laugh and what-not lady - as well as the attempt - now go back to Philo and strike up some un-dead horse, k?  C |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
And: Philip??? Where are you? I give you this opportunity to bash me in fron tof the world??? and nothing??? hmm.... |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
Christopher, "musty memories spark flames of reticence", "drop the chalice of possibility for a rendering of.. what? is it a cairn of sanctuary, the toll of resurrection?" and "mourning myopic tears shed centuries ago"... I still say that using this type of traditional poetic language (as above) does not accomodate more contemporary language, such as "egg-my-car grin" and "candy-cane spun tweaker". Now, Christopher, is that clear enough? If not, I can go into a much deeper explanation that would probably bore you to death. J/K mia |
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kid D Member
since 2000-10-18
Posts 64 |
ok mia, so far i have agreed with your comments, but on this i disagree, i think the contrast in the two wordings only go to further show the subject's complexity...and the complexities of the writing...i liked it, lots, and yep could almost see the grin on her face as the egg left her hand *g* great image (lol ok, so i reread my post and thought maybe i left the impression that i think egging cars is funny...nope...but I sure could envision that smile, was just the way he wrote it) but chris...don't have any idea what title would work for this....will read a couple more times and see if anything comes to me...this style works well for you [This message has been edited by kid D (edited 10-24-2000).] |
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Nicole Senior Member
since 1999-06-23
Posts 1835Florida |
Hello there, m'friend. Always like to see you trying something new, and no, I don't think you failed miserably at it at all. Quite the opposite. I found this poem to be quite 'meaty', very full of emotions and layers. After each re-read, my mind kept wanting to wander off into a different interpretation, but this is what I came up with for the 'main' interpretation:The image of a man and woman having a failed relationship, with the poem written from the man's 'after the fact' perspective. musty memories spark flames of reticence and ill-conceived retreating sighs, beating paths of "wishing-was" across trampled streets of hope **Okay, what I see here is him remembering...or thinking back, to what was. It's kind of a bitter memory, like looking back on it makes him chuckle in that 'it's not funny, gonna strangle someone but I have to laugh' kind of way. sure I chanced upon her words the crust of a premise drowned in irony a chance I suppose - nothing more **Here, it's like he's realizing, or bitterly contemplating the fact that even though he went into, and maintained the 'relationship', thinking that there was a chance at something really great...really worthwhile...there really wasn't anything beyond just an empty chance. In her mind, it was never going to go (or because of her, could never go) anywhere beyond just the idea of something wonderful. but then what to forget when your rage is nothing more than TV scripted, operatic bundles of a mute follow-the-leader can you clone your individuality - when "be yourself" is what's in vogue? and then ask me to drop the chalice of possibility for a rendering of.. what? is it a cairn of sanctuary, the toll of resurrection? will the dead bring the future to life while they themselves chatter incessantly about regret, mourning myopic tears shed centuries ago for nothing save the effect how can you play the puppet-master when I hold your strings? **Ah the meat of it, the catharsis...lots of layers, to me anyway. It's hard to look at this just one way. It's like he's either asking her these questions in person, just to prove the point of them. Totally rhetorical. Or...he's asking them to her, in his imagination...thinking about the questions in his head. Either way...it starts out, and he asks what there is to forget. What is there to forget when she never really was 'herself'...she always wantd to be someone else, or look different than herself, or act a certain way. She had serious self-esteem issues that went way beyond just not being happy with herself, and he was always the sounding board for that. A big circle of her looking for affirmation, him trying to give it, her not accepting it for what it was, and then her getting angry. Just one poor horse that got beat into dead oblivion. She tried to call the shots all the time, say 'what' and 'when'...even though, with a simple word or phrase, he could have reduced her to nothing, just because he knew what her tender 'spots' were. He's stuck in the bogs of resentment for all he put in, and it seems like it's all for naught...and that wars with the 'just get over it, there's nothing to forget'. you grate humor with an egg-my-car grin twisted around like a candy-cane spun tweaker so sure, shatter me with crisp slips of denial, lead me with a halter-topped visage of inanity **This is 'after the fact', but still part of the 'remembering'. She flaunts around in her new life, irresponsible and thoughtless, taking every chance to deny him in whatever way she can. She wants him to be seen just floundering around, lost without her. (another aspect of the self esteem issue) I have to say that I really dug 'egg-my-car grin' and 'candy-cane spun tweaker'...those two phrases clearly gave me the impression of irresponsibility (youth..lol, okay MY youth...egging cars, being stupid) and thoughtlessness (tweakers usually don't think of ANYONE but themselves). ...no, that's a dream... or a memory - same thing **Here's the crux of the climax...where it turns slightly to the swift closing. you can challenge me or seduce me but can you do both? **Here's the point of it all...she could never do both...of anything, in the relationship. She failed to be 'herself' even. Her self esteem wasn't strong enough to be the 'challenging' type to provide discourse, nor was it strong enough to truly 'seduce' or be seductive. Basically, she would make efforts sometimes, to go outside herself and do those things...but could never do them both, nor all of the time. Now, after the fact, she's more brazen, and tries to do either/or...but is bumbling horribly at it. The last sentence is completely rhetorical...needs no answer. It is just the last stab...he says "I know what you're doing, and I'm calling you on it all." All in all, I really enjoyed this poem (bol). I like how it made me really sit and think for a moment, how it gave me multiple interpretations to play with. Unfortunately though...I haven't the slightest idea for a title. I'll letchaknow if I come up with something.. Nic |
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Jamie Member Elite
since 2000-06-26
Posts 3168Blue Heaven |
hard to tell without it being in BOLD...lol...just kidding This would make a great statement on the advertising business...think about it Jamie Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito. - Virgil. "Yield thou not to adversity, but press on the more bravely". |
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Elyse Member
since 2000-04-16
Posts 414Apex (think raleigh) NC |
ahem, well. i think i must comment that pictures of people in wife beaters should not be allowed. i was very, um, distracted by that and feel as though my ability to be unbiased about the merits of the poem have been compromised  god, dont they have air in these computer labs? ok, so, i'll be back in a few, i just need to go down and get a drink out of the machine.... |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
mia - I'm still not convinced! I don't think it would bore me to death - do tell! kid d - thank you for the time and the compliments (and the defense! ) If you do come up with any ideas, I would LOVE to hear it - Usually titles are really easy for me, often I have them before I have the work - quite disconcerting!Nic - wow! you nailed the main impression PERFECTLY! That interpretation was the foremost in my mind! I'm highly impressed that you managed to read it without crossing intended interpretations! Quite skilled at this lady - should visit more often!!! Thank you BOL for the effort and the understanding! Jamie - first, a "grrrrrr" for you - will respond to THAT thread after this... However, yes... as it happens, I do - there are actually more than one "intended" interpretation here. You're heading on the right track for the second one. Nicole nailed the first to a "t" - as it was the primary intention - however, as I wrote it, I also focused on one and two more interpretations, taking care with my lines to amalgamate the meanings... which may also cause some of it to appear obtuse and not as relevant as they might seem from one interpretation to the other. Cool that you caught that - C |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
Elyse -  I think you'll find this is the one thing in the world that Jim, Philip AND Jamie agree on - the sole purpose of course... had to bring harmony to the three of them SOMEHOW!!! *shaking head* C [This message has been edited by Christopher (edited 10-24-2000).] |
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Elyse Member
since 2000-04-16
Posts 414Apex (think raleigh) NC |
ok, i am currently wearing my maturity socks, and will procede to comment on the poem. how can you play the puppet-master when I hold your strings? i would do that second line longer, like, "when it is I..." for emphasis. plus i would like a longer rhythm there. about the egg-my-car thing... i think it works well as an image, but is too percussive at that point in the line. listen to it EGG MY CAR GRIN. all one syllable, all stressed. or to my ear at least. i think it could be better because the sound of it is jarring and interruptive to me. but, that could be what you wanted... halter-topped visage ok, there's something, somehow, so wrong in this phrase. when i hear visage, i think dignified, conservative, the like. halter topped does not go with that. its like imagining a shadow in a halter and a belly chain and skin tight leather pants, toting a Kate Spade. .....maybe thats just a me and my college issue.....free to ignore that little interlude.... riiiiiight. thats why you put that picture on there. we know your plan. confess! luv Elyse |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Christopher, Sorry, but I have to agree with the above questions concerning your diction. This is not a narrative poem, it is a lyric and the shift distracts the reader. It reads like you became bored with the 'hooty-tooty' language and just started writing what you wanted to write in the first place. The change in tone quickens the pace of the poem but in such a way as to seem like you rushed it yourself. The first part if far too abstract with similar constructions place throughout -- you have a concrete noun followed by an abstract prepostional phrase: flames of reticence paths of “wishing-was” streets of hope the crust of a premise drowned in irony chalice of possibility rendering of.. what? cairn of sanctuary, the toll of resurrection? Each one of these could turn into a poem or become part of a poem but you just throw them out there without moving into further detail. You leave them alone as if they were clear in their own right. I don't think they are. Personally, I'd drop all that stuff because they seem to be a way of getting to your subject rather than jumping right into it. Stick with the more common diction and show us more clearly what this lady is doing to you and others. I like poems that deal with the complexity of self (In America, if everybody's so different, why do they all say the same thing?) but I don't think you've explored that idea thoroughly enough, and, at times, the poem seems to degenerate into a rant. In a nutshell, if you want to keep the diction as is, turn this into a dramatic piece where two people are speaking to each other (but not listening). I think this might serve your contrast more clearly. Also, avoid the first person and give equal weight to both sides. Let the reader decide who is in the 'right'. Just an opinion, Brad |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
Elyse - I wholeheartedly agree on the holding strings line - will add! On the halter topped - that's kind of the point - she affects this sophistication in her TV-typed role not realizing it's not the case... hmmm OK...hmm... Brad - I definitely see what you're saying... perhaps breaking it up into a two different poems would be a better idea... I can see the logic behind that and think I'll try that route... It IS a rant partially - intermixed are the other themes I touched on - I like your idea and will see if I can get both effects from two different poems - one dramatic dialogue and the other with more common diction on the underlying theme - perhaps I tried to be too complex here and wasn't able to pull it off. FYI - Here's a line-by-line breakdown of the main interpretation. This will probably spearhead the "dialogue" poem. musty memories spark flames of reticence *of course - fairly obvious... musty, because they're a bit old now, remembering... flames of reticence - meaning the hesitation to let it go... and ill-conceived retreating sighs, *the words that were said as the leaving took place, so to speak, harsh words, the kind we always wish we could take back... beating paths of “wishing-was” yeah - wish it would have gone differently, but beating them "down" as it were, because what happened, happened. across the trampled street of hope *another reference to what might have been, what "I" had hoped would happen sure I chanced upon her words *those little hints that you hear, the ones that tell you you're missing something deeper the crust of a premise drowned in irony *as if there were some sort of "reason" behind what happened, that was "my" fault, therefore the irony.. a chance I suppose - nothing more *no promise if I would have caught those words, nothing more than the "chance" that things might have progressed but then what to forget when your rage is nothing more than a TV scripted operatic bundle of mute follow-the-leader *but why should I forget, what is there to forget, when everything she did was all acting, the anger, the yelling, the deceit and lies, all a script to elicit what she wanted... follow the leader as in she'd seen the manipulation work before, and thought that would work for her can you clone your individuality - when “be yourself” is what’s in vogue? *fairly obvious again - thought this many times... it used to be stylish to be "this" way, but now, being unique is what's stylish... the true irony and then ask me to drop the chalice of possibility for a rendering of.. what? *getting on with my life, living it, leading it is the possibility, and she wants me to pass that up for a "rendering" of what she thinks she wants, now that she's finds me moving on - she's lost control, so now she realizes she wants me back is it a cairn of sanctuary, the toll of resurrection will the dead bring the future to life *you can't go back... what's done is done... we've been there, done that... it used to be a sanctuary, because I was used to her love, it was hard to leave that - resurrection - rebuild old feelings? - future to life... as in can what was in the past be brought forth again, to live in the future, can our relationship relive? while they themselves chatter incessantly about regret... mourn myopic tears shed centuries ago *here the past, mourning over what happened - it feels like forever ago, the tears are all but dried now... for nothing save the effect *because I really believe all she wants to do it for, is because she wants that control back... the effect of seeing me in her power how can you play the puppet-master *which is me in her power when it is I who hold your strings? *but she no longer controls me, I know what buttons to push now... I am free! lol you grate humor with an egg-my-car grin *again - the odd way in which she views life from a childish perspective, finding things that aren't funny so twisted around like a candy-cane spun tweaker *back and forth, twisting around as quickly as an addict moves their eyes... and like that addict, she can't turn away... so sure, shatter me with crisp slips of denial, *she of course denies that any of this is the case... of COURSE she really loves me... lead me with a halter-topped visage of inanity *reference to how she thinks she can win me back with promises of sex - the inanity is that sex isn't the focus of my feelings.. if I want to get laid, I could.. there is much more than that... ...no, that’s a dream... or a memory - same thing *the thing is, that she'd done that before too - it was a long and hard road for me to come to realize that sex from her didn't mean love... it meant control. you can challenge me or seduce me *she sees them separated - love and sex... but can you do both *rhetorical question here - I know she cant' do both - they're too separate for her - she can't have love and sex, only love or sex... sad really... [This message has been edited by Christopher (edited 10-25-2000).] |
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kid D Member
since 2000-10-18
Posts 64 |
ok, the depth of my perception might not have gone quite as deep as your explantion, but line for line, i read it (and understood it) exactly as you explained it....i like it, just like it is *shrugs and smiles* oh and i know just what you mean about titling something, usually mine come to me fairly easily, either at the beginning or for sure by the end, but every once in a while a poem just refuses to be titled lol...wrote one once in a few minutes and then fussed for hours before i decided on a title there are any number of phrases that you use that could title it nicely, but this poem progresses throughout a relationship and so almost any phrase that you pick will draw emphasis to that time in the poem, if that is what you want, say the beginning or the end, that would make it easier to decide, but if you want to title it as the whole relationship or something referring to just her, or just you...that makes a difference also...give me some more thoughts and i will keep thinking [This message has been edited by kid D (edited 10-25-2000).] |
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warmhrt Senior Member
since 1999-12-18
Posts 1563 |
*making loud clearing throat noises*... Christopher, is there anything you'd like to say to me? (hint - your reply to Brad) shows to go ya who gets the respect around here! (No disrespect intended to you, Brad) mia [This message has been edited by miapoetess (edited 10-25-2000).] |
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Christopher
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-02
Posts 8296Purgatorial Incarceration |
Kid D - Danke! Not a bad idea on the titling... perhaps that's what I'll do - wait until I've rewritten and then go from there!Mia - Darling, sweetheart, NO!!! *making a dashing bow, while tipping hat* If you'll please refer to reply number 12, I did reply to you, assuring you that I would not be bored and was in fact raptly awaiting you to grace me with your words! C |
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Elizabeth Cor Senior Member
since 2000-10-13
Posts 879Over the river and through the woods |
Okay, CaliRockboy, let me tear you to shreds… The idea was nice, but something is missing. I agree with Brad in that there is no follow-through, which makes this either bland or confusing instead of “complex”. It seems to fluctuate between a free verse and something wanting rhythm, then between introspection and a rant. Something about the style gets under my skin… a raging vocabulary stuck between articles. It’s like you wrote a simpler poem, and then ravaged a dictionary to change the adjectives… it just doesn’t fit. Maybe I’m the idiot that likes to see EVERYTHING elaborate, in which case I’m probably biased… but I’ve read over simplicity that I adore, and I’ve seen this type of “style” absolutely shine. “you grate humor with an egg-my-car grin” Okay, darn it, I LIKE this… However, I didn’t like the next line. I think one distraction is enough, if you’re going to use the Tweaker terminology, don’t back it up with shallow words. (Ditch candy-cane spun, no matter what contrast or idea you were trying to present). “you can challenge me or seduce me but can you do both?” Don’t change this one iota… fabulous ending, and the best line in the whole verse (simply for its complete idea, in-your-face dispute, and the ‘fit’ of both lines). Love it. I think this is a first attempt that wasn’t sure of it’s direction. Chris, you could fix this up NICELY… but it will take some major renovations. Note to Rock: I realize that my opinion here is a bit severe. Understand that the strength of criticism in the former paragraphs are simply from seeing a worthy concept stuffed into a package that I know you can exceed. Plus, when it comes to critiquing I’m just a big ol’biddy. Oh, yeah… Title suggestion: Egg my Hooty-Tooty??? ~ Beth |
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