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response to brad
| Critical Analysis #1 |
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response to brad |
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roxane Senior Member
since 1999-09-02
Posts 505us |
I think that I owe you an apology. I never mean for anything that I write to offend someone as much as it apparently offended you. Maybe you had a bad experience concerning suicide in your life, maybe you just don't care for my poems. That's all okay. I have to admit that I wasn't ready for that attack, but I guess I should have been. Here is piece of my life that I never intended to unveil to a bunch of strangers: when I was 14 I went through a very severe depression (and yes that can be a "clinical" thing). I was drawn into self-multilation, despair, and thoughts of suicide. I even attempted it, but I was put into a mental hospital. That experience has left me somewhat jaded. I don't "laugh" at suicide, but it is a part of me which never goes away. I can become numb to it sometimes, and other times, the emotions of it burst forth. I did use metaphors of things that don't last forever. Life doesn't last forever. I have felt that I was to die young my whole life, I don't think that's right, but I have to deal with myself. You may detest suicide poems. I detest poems about certain things, however, I would not be so bold as to call them cliche, trite, unimaginative, etc. I understand that by putting a poem on here, I leave it to be judged and criticized. However, I found your analysis quite unfair. You made your own assumptions right off, forgetting that the poem is ABOUT human emotions, which are chaotic and capricious. The girl in the poem doesn't have to tell you why she wants to die, that's not the point. She is merely asking "Why do people judge suicide so strictly when they don't want me to live?" She says she doesn't care (we must assume that she doesn't mean this) but she says it because she doesn't want to think about what her life has been. The poem isn't about whether it is right or wrong to kill yourself. The poem is one person's last thoughts before dying, and then they have nothing more to think about it. They don't assume to know everything, just all that they want to know because they are worthless in their own eyes. That's all. I'm sorry if my poem offended you. Please be consoled by the fact that your response did nothing for my day either. I just hope that you won't take this as a sign that I am a bad person or something. I won't again post something that I think will upset you. ------------------ "Come night, come darkness, for you cannot come too soon or stay too long in such a place as this." Charles Dickens roxane |
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| © Copyright 1999 roxane - All Rights Reserved | |||
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
I'll make a deal with you. Go ahead and post anything you want and I'll comment if you ask me to. On a certain level, you must realize how deeply the poem moved me. I wrote that long response, didn't I? I never intended nor ever intend to judge anybody's personal emotions or feelings here; I judge the way in which the words were put together and try to express how that influences my feelings and my thoughts. I don't believe you can ever separate the content of a poem from its structure -- they work together. Indeed, you can't have one without the other. A poem isn't ABOUT anything; it IS something. If you followed my above comments, how is my analysis 'unfair'? It may be wrong; it may be stupid, idiotic, and ignorant; but it's not unfair. I wasn't 'offended' by your poem (although I may not understand what you mean by that word); I was disturbed. I do see a difference between escape from a prison and dieing in that prison. I 'felt' that the poem was fusing the two different feelings. It really is just my opinion. Never stop posting poetry that you think will offend me. I have no interest in hiding from the world or what people feel but I won't necessarily accept unconditionally what people say or write. Acceptance is passive and static. Discussion on difficult subjects when two people disagree is active and dynamic and that's how I want to live. More later. The unfair, judgmental, insensitive, anal, uptight, asshole, Brad |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
roxane, Sorry, I have to break this up but the computer I'm working on right now doesn't take kindly to long messages for some reason. Please, never, never apologize to me for anything. There's no reason. I do think we may have some misunderstandings (I'm used to misunderstandings; I live in a country where English is not the natural language. To be honest, I am consistently shocked that any form of comminication happens at all in any country given the way I see language working.) I'll try to get two points on this post: experience and the transparency of language Experience: We all have a varied and unique background and no matter what you do, you cannot escape this. I will react to words differently from what you intended. Who is more correct? Neither, of course. I think we probably agree on this when it come to poetry but it also comes to posting critiques (things don't change when it comes to prose). I never intend any of my critiques as an attack (at least if you mean that on a personal level). When one reads, one has to make assumptions (a clean slate would mean you can't read). You are absolutely correct when you said I made assumptions -- you have to. One: I assume that you wish in depth exploration of the ideas and structure of the poem itself (not your life). Two: That you are actively looking for the opinions of others that may or may not help you improve your poem. Three: That you enjoy this 'type' of conversation. If any of these assumptions are false, it is I, not you, who should apologize. I also have no wish to offend you or to discourage writing in any way. Okay, that's really only one point, but I think the myth of the 'transparency of language' is, more or less, apparent. The ogre under the bridge, Brad |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Obviously, I'm avoiding suicide in and of itself for the moment. You've made some points here that I desperately want to discuss but I'm not going to push. Communication is a combination of listening and speaking (and other things) by at least two people and I don't know if you want to do that. However, my use of 'trite' and 'cliche' were never meant to apply to your feelings or your emotions (I've already said that but I guess I like to repeat myself). They were meant to apply to certain phrasings that you used in your poem that I have heard many times before. So many times before that they have lost any impact on me as a reader (oh, that again). They may seem original to you; I don't know. They are not for me. For me, they lessen the impact of what I think you were trying to say, they weaken the intended power of your poem. This is and always has to be subjective (but then I don't believe in objectivity) because of the experience problem mentioned above. It's just my opinion. Take it or leave it. The use of cliche in poetry is a very complicated issue (for example: is 'I love you' a cliche? My answer: yes and no. 'I love you' is a phrase that most people would agree is probably overused in Western societies. However, it does occupy a functional position in the language. It is expected in certain situations. Once a phrase becomes functional, it takes on a whole new array of possibilities. Have I talked too much yet? Okay, hope you're still interested in talking to me, Brad |
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roxane Senior Member
since 1999-09-02
Posts 505us |
brad- if my mentioning of the possible reason for my stance of suicide bothered you, i'm sorry. i do accept criticism, but if you detest suicide poems, why read them???? just to tell the poet that they are terrible? i will refrain from defending my poem on such grounds that it is valid because it is how i feel, if you will refrain from the insulting me and stick to constructive criticism. you call yourself a judge of the mechanics of poetry, then why the personal affronts? i always welcome criticism, except in this case where the things that you say have no real way to help my poetry. what is the point if i can't improve, i don't want to get worse. poetry=life there is no separating the two. when a poem becomes nothing but a pattern and a "structure" it can lose its appeal, but obviously my poem had no appeal to begin with. the use of cliches in this poem reflect a casual, modern approach to death. it may be cliche to say "with not a soul in the world to care", but it may not be.....think of that for a moment. apathy is never very true. emotions are unpredictable. you cannot "structurize" such a thing as death if i cannot even trivialize it. why is death trivial in the poem??? the narrator is going to kill themselves and they are happy to escape the pain of living!!! to say that you assume that i want to explore the ideas and structure of the poem is quite hypocritical of you when your whole basis for this attack was that you dislike poems about suicide. that is not fair. that has nothing to do with the mechanics of the poem. *the poem is free verse- it goes where it likes, seeps into crevices that possibly shouldn't be explored, but it doesn't let a structure hold it back from the purity of the moment it describes. *all poems are about life in one way or the other. haven't you ever heard that the best way to analyze a piece of writing is to look at the author's life? i didn't want to offer my past to this debate, but i did in hopes that you would understand. perhaps that is tacky, but i don't even care. this poem wasn't put on here to please you. i wrote it because it told my feelings. i wrote it because i wanted to. *i never called you any of the names that you signed yourself as. i am not that immature. i almost resent the fact that you did that, but tis not my place to resent. i didn't mean to make you feel that i felt that way and i'm sorry if i did. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
roxane, Hold on a second. I am very confused by this last post. When did I say that knowing a little bit more about you 'bothered me'? In poetry, or at least in this kind of poetry, I find it very helpful. I wish more people would be more specific. My opening comment on my first post was to tell you my bias right off so that you can accurately judge my critique (is it helpful for me or not?). I read suicide poems all the time; there are a lot posted on the web. Admittedly, I was trying to specifically adress your poem in that context. I felt that your poem was doing many similar things to other poems that I've read. I believe this is constructive. 'maybe you just don't care for my poems' -- how am I supposed to know? I haven't read enough to make any general comments about you as a poet or your poetry in general. When did I insult you? The only thing I can find was maybe my 'lack of imagination' comment. I'm sorry for that. But this is as you say an emotion poem -- I'm not sure if imagination was a major factor in the writing of it. I don't know. Please enlighten me. Every comment was intended as constructive. Every question I asked was not rhetorical but a real question that I think can be used to make the poem more interesting (admittedly for me. but, honestly, what else can anybody really say?) I was trying to be facetious and lighten the mood a little bit with those derogatory comments. Sorry, it didn't work. Honestly, I don't feel like I'm attacking you. I do think we're having a charged discussion on something that we disagree. What's wrong with that? Brad |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
Roxane, this must seem really stupid that I have to post two or three times to every one of yours (I can't help it). I wonder if there's a quality versus quantity thing going on here? Let's see, what else don't I understand? I never called myself a judge (which for me implies I actually have some authority. I don't. I claim none.) I said, I judge poems based on my experience and the intertwining combination of structure and content. This is a purely subjective opinion. I do think we disagree on what structure means. For me, all poems have a structure (free verse or not), just not necessarily a traditional one. I don't think I'm being hypocritical here (oh, I'm sure I'm hypocritical all the time but I don't think so here). I want to explore the ideas and structure of the poem. I don't think you can ever truly separate mechanics from content. I attempted to see the two in context. Again, how is this seen as an attack? I never said this poem or the poet was bad or terrible (I've already written enough about it, don't you think? Doesn't that mean anything? It moved me in some way just not the way, perhaps, you intended.) My basis for commenting on your poem was to offer an opinion (with full disclosure of my bias). I never said 'with not a soul in the world to care' was a cliche. I said it was interesting phrasing and that the cliche would be 'not a care in the world'. I am aware of authorial intention (some people call it the intentional fallacy). One problem with that approach is that an author can be too close to his/her work and not see how the words effect other people. It's why we all need different opinions. How do you define 'tacky'? I'm not joking; I really have no idea what you mean by that word. One more thing: I consider this a discussion. I have no intent of stopping. Again, I think we are talking about a very important subject from two very different viewpoints. I am interested in what you have to say (and I hope that you feel the same about my posts). Well, it's been an interesting morning, Brad PS I reread my first post again. Perhaps, the tone is too strident (from the repetition) but there is nothing in there that is intended as an attack. [This message has been edited by Brad (edited 09-16-99).] |
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jenni Member
since 1999-09-11
Posts 478Washington D.C. |
brad, while you're waiting for roxanne's next missive, would you mind reading my two posts here? i'd really like your opinion on them, could use your help. (they're not about suicide, i promise, lol.) |
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roxane Senior Member
since 1999-09-02
Posts 505us |
tacky=distasteful, almost taboo in an unsophisicated manner. i don't know if i have the energy for this discussion anymore. i have tried but i guess that it pretty obvious now that i am wrong and you are right.....but hey that's the story of my life. |
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loyd168282 Junior Member
since 1999-09-10
Posts 12lou,ky jefferson |
what? [This message has been edited by loyd168282 (edited 09-16-99).] |
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jenni Member
since 1999-09-11
Posts 478Washington D.C. |
loyd, you're a minimalist, i see? good editing job, lol. |
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Brad Member Ascendant
since 1999-08-20
Posts 5705Jejudo, South Korea |
roxane, As long as you realize that I meant nothing personal about my comments, I'm happy. I have an idea (okay, I was drinking but sometimes the best ideas . . .). Given are very different ideas and views, how about working on a poem together? I was wondering if a suicide poem could be written in a way that satisfies me but it doesn't have to be about suicide -- it might be interesting to see what happens. If you're interested, Email me. Brad |
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